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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
United States41989 Posts
On March 18 2011 20:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the involvement, if any, of British Naval assets. My assumption was that British (and American) naval assets would be the foundation on which the no fly zone was built.
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did cameron answer the question whether the solution includes giving arms to rebellions?
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United States41989 Posts
On March 18 2011 20:36 Cain0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 20:27 Nightfall.589 wrote:On March 18 2011 20:27 Cain0 wrote: This is the first time in 19 years that I have seen Conservatives and Labour agree on something.
What was Blairs deal in the desert? Deal in the desert Wow, really. Tony Blair is even more of a joke than I thought he was. It happens. It wasn't the first time a political leader made a deal with a dictator to help big business and it won't be the last. Nobody would have cared that we were funding and arming him if this hadn't happened and in 2007 who would have thought dictators across the Arab world would get overthrown. Still, it's rather incredible that the UN envoy to the Middle East was the same man arming the dictators of the Middle East.
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United States41989 Posts
On March 18 2011 20:45 tenacity wrote: did cameron answer the question whether the solution includes giving arms to rebellions? Being asked right now.
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United States41989 Posts
And the embargo applies to rebels too.
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On March 18 2011 19:55 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 19:51 Pika Chu wrote: Yes we can talk about Ceausescu if you want to but i don't see similarities. No one came with millitary to help us, most of the romanian people were tired of Ceausescu and that's how he went down.
Yeah so we need to wait for the Bahrain situation to come as Libya's. The bahrain authorities are using force (guns/bullets and etc) to take down the rebels. They aren't doing air hits and everything simply because the rebels aren't as armed as they are in Libya. The protesters in Bahrain are not armed - the are not rebels. They are... Protesters. Who are being murdered. Intervention in Bahrain is just as justified as it is in Libya (And in comparison, it was not justified in... Egypt, as that uprising resolved itself more or less peacefully), but inconvenient for western powers.
So it's not hypocrasy and double standard? Just because it's inconvenient it means we can kick Gadaffi because he's alone but can't kick the other guy because he's got friends. Great, i love this style, let's leave the bahrain people get massacred and if someone asks what was UN doing they will answer "What? What's Bahrain? Where is Bahrain? We were too busy building democracy in Libya".
And what you bolded. You see it's even WORSE. They don't even have weapons to fight the government, at least in Libya they have weapons. Here they're just getting massacred without a fight.
Kwark did a good 1 phrase resume. But that's what bothers me, we have two similar situations and act differently, according to some's interests. And we're still buying the stinky fish called "fighting for freedom/peace/democracy", are you sure that's what we're doing in Libya?
And you guys really believe a no-fly zone is so easy to enable? Every country who is participating is at war with Libya, you understand that right?
About the embargo of selling weapons to Libya, you know what we will learn in 20 years? That the only thing that happened was that the same countries sold weapons to Libya illegally with 10 times the price.
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United States41989 Posts
Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can".
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this could also be just a covering their asses thinggie.
at first they just waited to see where the lybian conflict goes. after seeing the rebels succes (the momentum) in freeing towns, the west backed them up (sanctions, speeches and so on). now, after Gaddafi commited to the warr with everything he has there was a real possibility he could win. since the west already backed 'the freedom fighters' up, a Gaddafi win wouldve screwed them of any future oil imports comming from lybia. so its not a right/wrong issue nor a moral/righteouss one; the west needs rebels to win.
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On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can".
I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied.
So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer.
I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends".
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United States41989 Posts
On March 18 2011 21:07 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can". I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied. So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer. I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends". He's a politician (read liar). Of course we know that we can't undermine the people selling us oil. I believe we care about freedom, but nowhere near as much as we care about cheap oil.
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On March 18 2011 21:07 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can". I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied. So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer. I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends".
What would you possible gain out of it? What would be the benefits of saying: "Hey you big guys, do what ever you want, we can't do shit. Feel free to do so" than saying nothing?
And what would be the benefits of not even helping the "small" only because you can't deal with the big ones?
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The issue is that if gaddafi stays in power, he is a threat to those who have been openly supporting the rebellion. Bahrain, on the other side, doesn't threaten other country and it would create instability. Country like China are very paranoid about these intervention as they could see themselves in the same situation (having to kill lots of protesters to keep power as it is). Of course, no such thing would happen and Libya's attack is only possible because how arrogant and stupid Gaddafi is.
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On March 18 2011 20:57 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 19:55 Nightfall.589 wrote:On March 18 2011 19:51 Pika Chu wrote: Yes we can talk about Ceausescu if you want to but i don't see similarities. No one came with millitary to help us, most of the romanian people were tired of Ceausescu and that's how he went down.
Yeah so we need to wait for the Bahrain situation to come as Libya's. The bahrain authorities are using force (guns/bullets and etc) to take down the rebels. They aren't doing air hits and everything simply because the rebels aren't as armed as they are in Libya. The protesters in Bahrain are not armed - the are not rebels. They are... Protesters. Who are being murdered. Intervention in Bahrain is just as justified as it is in Libya (And in comparison, it was not justified in... Egypt, as that uprising resolved itself more or less peacefully), but inconvenient for western powers. So it's not hypocrasy and double standard? Just because it's inconvenient it means we can kick Gadaffi because he's alone but can't kick the other guy because he's got friends. Great, i love this style, let's leave the bahrain people get massacred and if someone asks what was UN doing they will answer "What? What's Bahrain? Where is Bahrain? We were too busy building democracy in Libya".
It's completely a double standard. Intervention in Libya is justified. Intervention in Bahrain is justified. Intervention in Bahrain will not happen, because Bahrain is an ally of the US.
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On March 18 2011 21:11 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 21:07 Pika Chu wrote:On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can". I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied. So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer. I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends". What would you possible gain out of it? What would be the benefits of saying: "Hey you big guys, do what ever you want, we can't do shit. Feel free to do so" than saying nothing? And what would be the benefits of not even helping the "small" only because you can't deal with the big ones?
At least they wouldn't be hypocrites with double standards. If they'd just put the cards on the table and say "we got certain interests in Libya so we're going to take out gaddafi, and we got other interests in bahrain so i hope their king remains in power to ensure them" trust me i'd be fine with it but at least i wouldn't feel like living in a carton box with lies everywhere, and what's worse is people believing them.
Yes Kwark, i know that, you know that, we know that, most smart people who understand the geopolitics know that. But i want them not to use the smaller determination factor (helping free the people) as a pretext for doing this.
How come people are so angered at the Libyan situation but satisfied with the Bahrain one? I believe only once everyone realizes all these lies we're fed we can change something to ensure a better, cleaner future.
And next i have a problem with intervening in some's domestic business because i believe we will need to invade Libya as a last instance after doing this, there's no way going back. And that means many people killed, much money poured into and the opposite of freedom given to their people for a long while.
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On March 18 2011 21:17 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 20:57 Pika Chu wrote:On March 18 2011 19:55 Nightfall.589 wrote:On March 18 2011 19:51 Pika Chu wrote: Yes we can talk about Ceausescu if you want to but i don't see similarities. No one came with millitary to help us, most of the romanian people were tired of Ceausescu and that's how he went down.
Yeah so we need to wait for the Bahrain situation to come as Libya's. The bahrain authorities are using force (guns/bullets and etc) to take down the rebels. They aren't doing air hits and everything simply because the rebels aren't as armed as they are in Libya. The protesters in Bahrain are not armed - the are not rebels. They are... Protesters. Who are being murdered. Intervention in Bahrain is just as justified as it is in Libya (And in comparison, it was not justified in... Egypt, as that uprising resolved itself more or less peacefully), but inconvenient for western powers. So it's not hypocrasy and double standard? Just because it's inconvenient it means we can kick Gadaffi because he's alone but can't kick the other guy because he's got friends. Great, i love this style, let's leave the bahrain people get massacred and if someone asks what was UN doing they will answer "What? What's Bahrain? Where is Bahrain? We were too busy building democracy in Libya". It's completely a double standard. Intervention in Libya is justified. Intervention in Bahrain is justified. Intervention in Bahrain will not happen, because Bahrain is an ally of the US.
Hehe, of course you know that, you're a smart guy, but it's not you or someone else here i want to hear it from .
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European countries have sold weapons to Libya for a total amount of 834 M€ since the embargo has been lifted in 2004, and now their gonna give weapons to the rebels ?
Source
Don't get me wrong, I hope Libyans can be freed, but this is really hypocrite from European countries... "Oh Kadhafi wanna buy weapons, let's pretend it's just for the garnishment of the presidential palace and take the money". Then "Wait what? He actually uses the weapons against the population ? Let's give a few millions worth of weapons to the rebels for free so we don't look too bad !"
Net profit : 800 M€ and we pose as the good guys, let's hope nobody notices ! (I know the air strikes they are preparing to support the rebels cost more expensive than a couple of millions, but still... wtf )
What did they expect when they sold weapons to a dictator ?! I know almost every single developed country sells weapons to African dictatorships, but this is just ridiculous.
The only guy who doesn't feel guilty about that is Dassault, the chairman of the biggest French weapons company, and close friend of president Sarkozy. He says in this VIDEO (in French) : "We sell weaponry to our customers so that they use it."
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United States41989 Posts
On March 18 2011 21:25 endy wrote:European countries have sold weapons to Libya for a total amount of 834 M€ since the embargo has been lifted in 2004, and now their gonna give weapons to the rebels ? SourceDon't get me wrong, I hope Libyans can be freed, but this is really hypocrite from European countries... "Oh Kadhafi wanna buy weapons, let's pretend it's just for the garnishment of the presidential palace and take the money". Then "Wait what? He actually uses the weapons against the population ? Let's give a few millions worth of weapons to the rebels for free so we don't look too bad !" Net profit : 800 M€ and we pose as the good guys, let's hope nobody notices ! (I know the air strikes they are preparing to support the rebels cost more expensive than a couple of millions, but still... wtf ) What did they expect when they sold weapons to a dictator ?! I know almost every single developed country sells weapons to African dictatorships, but this is just ridiculous. The only guy who doesn't feel guilty about that is Dassault, the chairman of the biggest French weapons company, and close friend of president Sarkozy. He says in this VIDEO (in French) : "We sell weaponry to our customers so that they use it." The arms embargo applies to both the rebels and the government in Libya. Any sales to the rebels will have to be done in private.
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On March 18 2011 21:21 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 21:11 Keniji wrote:On March 18 2011 21:07 Pika Chu wrote:On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can". I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied. So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer. I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends". What would you possible gain out of it? What would be the benefits of saying: "Hey you big guys, do what ever you want, we can't do shit. Feel free to do so" than saying nothing? And what would be the benefits of not even helping the "small" only because you can't deal with the big ones? At least they wouldn't be hypocrites with double standards. If they'd just put the cards on the table and say "we got certain interests in Libya so we're going to take out gaddafi, and we got other interests in bahrain so i hope their king remains in power to ensure them" trust me i'd be fine with it but at least i wouldn't feel like living in a carton box with lies everywhere, and what's worse is people believing them. Yes Kwark, i know that, you know that, we know that, most smart people who understand the geopolitics know that. But i want them not to use the smaller determination factor (helping free the people) as a pretext for doing this. How come people are so angered at the Libyan situation but satisfied with the Bahrain one? I believe only once everyone realizes all these lies we're fed we can change something to ensure a better, cleaner future. And next i have a problem with intervening in some's domestic business because i believe we will need to invade Libya as a last instance after doing this, there's no way going back. And that means many people killed, much money poured into and the opposite of freedom given to their people for a long while.
Many people have already been killed, and will be killed, and I doubt giving anyone freedom's ever been high on Gaddafi's priority lists. Blowing up passenger planes may have, though.
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On March 18 2011 21:35 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 21:21 Pika Chu wrote:On March 18 2011 21:11 Keniji wrote:On March 18 2011 21:07 Pika Chu wrote:On March 18 2011 20:59 KwarK wrote: Cameron answered the Bahrain question with "just because you can't do the right thing all the time doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when you can". I want the answer of why you can't with Bahrain. I want them to recognize they don't give a damn about people's freedom and are doing this out of interest, then i'm satisfied. So instead of answering why they can't help the people of Bahrain free themselves, they just gave a witty ethical answer to avoid the real answer. I want to hear them say: "We can only deal with small people, we can't deal with the bigger guys who have friends". What would you possible gain out of it? What would be the benefits of saying: "Hey you big guys, do what ever you want, we can't do shit. Feel free to do so" than saying nothing? And what would be the benefits of not even helping the "small" only because you can't deal with the big ones? At least they wouldn't be hypocrites with double standards. If they'd just put the cards on the table and say "we got certain interests in Libya so we're going to take out gaddafi, and we got other interests in bahrain so i hope their king remains in power to ensure them" trust me i'd be fine with it but at least i wouldn't feel like living in a carton box with lies everywhere, and what's worse is people believing them. Yes Kwark, i know that, you know that, we know that, most smart people who understand the geopolitics know that. But i want them not to use the smaller determination factor (helping free the people) as a pretext for doing this. How come people are so angered at the Libyan situation but satisfied with the Bahrain one? I believe only once everyone realizes all these lies we're fed we can change something to ensure a better, cleaner future. And next i have a problem with intervening in some's domestic business because i believe we will need to invade Libya as a last instance after doing this, there's no way going back. And that means many people killed, much money poured into and the opposite of freedom given to their people for a long while. Many people have already been killed, and will be killed, and I doubt giving anyone freedom's ever been high on Gaddafi's priority lists. Blowing up passenger planes may have, though.
Yes mate but now it's not a real war, when we will invade Libya that's going to be the real war, the number of dead now will be 100 times bigger then. I doubt Gaddafi has freedom on his list but it's still not such a totalitarian regime compared to others (comparing Libya to North Korea is like comparing paradise to hell).
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It seems that Lybia agrees to ceasfire immediately.
(Libyan FM speaking on CNN)
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