EPTMy Point is the protests were warranted even if by comparison he has been "mild" in his actions.
Libyan Uprising - Page 11
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Koyv
United States2 Posts
My Point is the protests were warranted even if by comparison he has been "mild" in his actions. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Libyan Interior Minister Abdel Fattah Younes has been reportedly kidnapped in Benghazi after he had resigned to join protesters. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On February 23 2011 11:26 Consolidate wrote: 2011 is proving to be an interesting year... People here don't seem to realize that Gaddafi was a pretty decent ruler by relative standards. The man had visions of uniting Africa and used his nation's oil money to give aid to poorer african states. In recent times he was also as good of a friend of the West as one could hope for. Per Capita GDP in Libya is around $14000 Literacy rate is about 90% Demographically speaking, a large portion of the population are youths, who also happen to be the ones protesting. In my mind, these protests are unwarranted and irresponsible, but Gaddafi's response has been horrifically inept. Libya is fucked big-time. It will be decades before the country recovers. So you fell for his propaganda ... that's how he wrapped the west around the little finger. You just need to look at his sons to see that he wasn't better than Ben Ali when it comes to decadence and if you look at personal freedom in Libya he certainly wasn't better than Mubarak. So what did he do for the west? He sold us oil to get money? Ah, he likes to pose like a pop star after eccentric speeches, that must be it. No, he is not a decent ruler even by relative standards, that is compared to the leaders of the neighbouring countries who just got sacked. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On February 23 2011 17:26 Maenander wrote: So you fell for his propaganda ... that's how he wrapped the west around the little finger. You just need to look at his sons to see that he wasn't better than Ben Ali when it comes to decadence and if you look at personal freedom in Libya he certainly wasn't better than Mubarak. So what did he do for the west? He sold us oil to get money? Ah, he likes to pose like a pop star after eccentric speeches, that must be it. No, he is not a decent ruler even by relative standards, that is compared to the leaders of the neighbouring countries who just got sacked. Not to mention that in sponsoring international terrorism during the Cold War, his contributions almost top those of the United States. It's only fairly recently that he's cleaned up his regime's international image. | ||
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don_kyuhote
3007 Posts
This guy's name is truly remarkably mysterious | ||
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
This has to potential to get very ugly, and may serve as a grim reminder that revolutions are not always as peaceful as those of egypt and tunisia. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On February 23 2011 11:26 Consolidate wrote: 2011 is proving to be an interesting year... People here don't seem to realize that Gaddafi was a pretty decent ruler by relative standards. The man had visions of uniting Africa and used his nation's oil money to give aid to poorer african states. In recent times he was also as good of a friend of the West as one could hope for. Per Capita GDP in Libya is around $14000 Literacy rate is about 90% Demographically speaking, a large portion of the population are youths, who also happen to be the ones protesting. In my mind, these protests are unwarranted and irresponsible, but Gaddafi's response has been horrifically inept. Libya is fucked big-time. It will be decades before the country recovers. This is extremely uninformed. The mans only vision was to rule over something, he tried with an arabic union first and when he saw it didnt work out he figured he might as well turn and become the leader of Africa (which he proclaimed himself, he wasnt doing it for the good of the african community, it was for his own good). No matter how much he helped the surrounding countries, youve got to keep in mind the purpose of these actions. Gaddafi is, as shown by a lot of his previous actions, a very dangerous man. I dont undestand how you can say that these protests are unwarranted and irresponsible when you dont even seem to know the motivation behind these, this really comes out as a baseless judgement. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
It's times like these that the Second Amendment comes in handy. Luckily, their army seems to have joined the people...mostly. Hope Libya wins. | ||
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
On February 23 2011 23:25 TurpinOS wrote: This is extremely uninformed. The mans only vision was to rule over something, he tried with an arabic union first and when he saw it didnt work out he figured he might as well turn and become the leader of Africa (which he proclaimed himself, he wasnt doing it for the good of the african community, it was for his own good). No matter how much he helped the surrounding countries, youve got to keep in mind the purpose of these actions. Gaddafi is, as shown by a lot of his previous actions, a very dangerous man. I dont undestand how you can say that these protests are unwarranted and irresponsible when you dont even seem to know the motivation behind these, this really comes out as a baseless judgement. I do realize that the man is unstable. He fancied himself as a Che Guevara revolutionary long before he whored himself out to the west. That he has no abiding principles is somewhat correct. His recent actions are deplorable. But it would be a huge mistake to assume that these protests are good thing. People are so extraordinarily naive. I can guarantee that in 10 years time, the government you have in Libya will be as corrupt and inept as the current. There a hundreds of thousands people protesting in India right now - the largest democracy which also grants its citizens many civil liberties. Liberties don't mean shit when food prices are rising. People think that this revolutionary phenomenon is spurred by a spontaneous desire for 'democracy'. It is not. What you are witnessing are the effects of high youth unemployment, real food shortages as well as inflated food commodities due to speculation. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On February 24 2011 05:45 Consolidate wrote: I do realize that the man is unstable. He fancied himself as a Che Guevara revolutionary long before he whored himself out to the west. That he has no abiding principles is somewhat correct. His recent actions are deplorable. But it would be a huge mistake to assume that these protests are good thing. People are so extraordinarily naive. I can guarantee that in 10 years time, the government you have in Libya will be as corrupt and inept as the current. There a hundreds of thousands people protesting in India right now - the largest democracy which also grants its citizens many civil liberties. Liberties don't mean shit when food prices are rising. People think that this revolutionary phenomenon is spurred by a spontaneous desire for 'democracy'. It is not. What you are witnessing are the effects of high youth unemployment, real food shortages as well as inflated food commodities due to speculation. So people should not fight for their rights because they cant be sure of the outcome ...seriously ? People are so extraordinarily naive. I can guarantee that in 10 years time, the government you have in Libya will be as corrupt and inept as the current. Id say youre the naive one there, as there is no actual way of guaranteeing that (unless you built a time machine but Id doubt that one.) And even if you could say that the odds are great that the government will be as bad, I still dont see how it should stop you from making yourself heard at least. This revolutionary phenomenon is due to the fact that people just figured out the power of communication (mostly in the form of internet) and the fact that they now see that they can do something about their situations. Youve stated India as youre only example but the fact is that countries such as Iran, Libya, Egypt, etc. are not democratic countries. Now Id gladly like to ask you who you are, as an outsider, to jugde these people and tell everyone that ''nonono youre lying, youre only using the lack of democracy as an excuse to fight due to other problems''. I wont even answer to your point of ''liberties dont mean shit when food prices are rising'', I seriously dont understand how someone could really think that statement is true deep down. | ||
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:12 TurpinOS wrote: So people should not fight for their rights because they cant be sure of the outcome ...seriously ? Id say youre the naive one there, as there is no actual way of guaranteeing that (unless you built a time machine but Id doubt that one.) And even if you could say that the odds are great that the government will be as bad, I still dont see how it should stop you from making yourself heard at least. This revolutionary phenomenon is due to the fact that people just figured out the power of communication (mostly in the form of internet) and the fact that they now see that they can do something about their situations. Youve stated India as youre only example but the fact is that countries such as Iran, Libya, Egypt, etc. are not democratic countries. Now Id gladly like to ask you who you are, as an outsider, to jugde these people and tell everyone that ''nonono youre lying, youre only using the lack of democracy as an excuse to fight due to other problems''. I wont even answer to your point of ''liberties dont mean shit when food prices are rising'', I seriously dont understand how someone could really think that statement is true deep down. Why are they protests occurring now? Why not a year ago? The Demographic problem in these Middle Eastern/ North African countries is a huge problem. Youth unemployment around these areas is around 25% The global recession and rising food prices have been the last straw. When governments fall, democracy rarely wins out permanently. Many revolutions begin with good intentions. The first few elections may be 'free'. But more often than not, countries which undergo revolution end up as autocratic states. Look at Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. People were calling it the 'end of history'. They were claiming that democracy had prevailed once and for all over autocracy. Look at Russia today - Putin remains the de-facto leader while slowly eroding western ideals year by year. Simply put, I do not trust that these protests will end well at all. Have you people already forgotten the 'color revolutions' that occurred in South East Asia in the late 1980s? To this very day, The Philippines and Indonesia are rampant with corruption and dominated by private interests. While they have 'free' elections, conditions of both countries are hardly improved than when they were under despots. It's not that I don't welcome the recent protests. I'd probably even withdraw my earlier criticism that these protests are irresponsible. What I do feel obligated to point out however, is how little people are willing to look at the bigger picture. | ||
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
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Robstickle
Great Britain406 Posts
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Cain0
United Kingdom608 Posts
On February 23 2011 18:11 don_kyuhote wrote: Gaddafi, Qaddafi, Kadafi, Gathdaffi, Gadhafee, Laffy, Taffy. This guy's name is truly remarkably mysterious I think its because arabic cant fully be translated into english. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On February 24 2011 06:30 Consolidate wrote: Why are they protests occurring now? Why not a year ago? The Demographic problem in these Middle Eastern/ North African countries is a huge problem. Youth unemployment around these areas is around 25% The global recession and rising food prices have been the last straw. When governments fall, democracy rarely wins out permanently. Many revolutions begin with good intentions. The first few elections may be 'free'. But more often than not, countries which undergo revolution end up as autocratic states. Look at Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. People were calling it the 'end of history'. They were claiming that democracy had prevailed once and for all over autocracy. Look at Russia today - Putin remains the de-facto leader while slowly eroding western ideals year by year. Simply put, I do not trust that these protests will end well at all. Have you people already forgotten the 'color revolutions' that occurred in South East Asia in the late 1980s? To this very day, The Philippines and Indonesia are rampant with corruption and dominated by private interests. While they have 'free' elections, conditions of both countries are hardly improved than when they were under despots. It's not that I don't welcome the recent protests. I'd probably even withdraw my earlier criticism that these protests are irresponsible. What I do feel obligated to point out however, is how little people are willing to look at the bigger picture. I dont think that I am not looking at the bigger picture, Ive never said that these protests were a good thing in order to change the situation, quite frankly, I can share your oppinion that odds are the situation wont be that much better after the fall of these governments. The thing I was mainly arguing is the fact that you say its not a good thing. Even knowing that the government might be the exact same in a year, I still think it is justified to protest and make your voice heard to that people around you can know whats going on. Odds are great that once the dust settles people stop caring and everything goes back to where it was, but you can never be certain about that and who knows, one day some things might actually change due to these people. The simple fact that something hasnt worked in the past shouldnt stop you from trying again. And to me, the biggest issue is those who tell these people who are trying to fight that they are stupid of doing so since nothing will happen. This is exactly the kind of opinion that will prevent things from actually changing some day. Youth unenployement and food supplies sure are extremly big issues currently, but I think that you cant pinpoint only single things. These are just some of the factors that made this round of protest finally appear, the same way that people realizing that they actually have the power to regroup themselves due to the internet is another factor. TLDR I fail to see how, if youre living in a country where there is no democracy, trying to change things around even with the knowledge that it might not, is a bad thing to do. | ||
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Ilfirin
United States102 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:30 Consolidate wrote: Why are they protests occurring now? Why not a year ago? The Demographic problem in these Middle Eastern/ North African countries is a huge problem. Youth unemployment around these areas is around 25% The global recession and rising food prices have been the last straw. When governments fall, democracy rarely wins out permanently. Many revolutions begin with good intentions. The first few elections may be 'free'. But more often than not, countries which undergo revolution end up as autocratic states. Look at Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. People were calling it the 'end of history'. They were claiming that democracy had prevailed once and for all over autocracy. Look at Russia today - Putin remains the de-facto leader while slowly eroding western ideals year by year. Simply put, I do not trust that these protests will end well at all. Have you people already forgotten the 'color revolutions' that occurred in South East Asia in the late 1980s? To this very day, The Philippines and Indonesia are rampant with corruption and dominated by private interests. While they have 'free' elections, conditions of both countries are hardly improved than when they were under despots. It's not that I don't welcome the recent protests. I'd probably even withdraw my earlier criticism that these protests are irresponsible. What I do feel obligated to point out however, is how little people are willing to look at the bigger picture. The big picture really doesn't mean much if you're being repressed like that. Not to say I have any idea whatsoever what these people's lives are like, but trying to imagine not just myself, but my friends and family being stuck in that situation, I'd sure as hell be protesting to make my voice heard, regardless of the consequences. But if even one of those countries can transform into a stable democracy, it will be greatly to the benefit of so many people. And regardless of what anyone says, we are all human, and anything helping a large number of people to have a voice, have a chance for something better, and have a chance to help others once they've helped themselves, can only be a good thing imo. | ||
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Consolidate
United States829 Posts
On February 24 2011 06:41 TurpinOS wrote: Spoilered the quotes since it was getting big. + Show Spoiler + On February 24 2011 06:30 Consolidate wrote: Why are they protests occurring now? Why not a year ago? The Demographic problem in these Middle Eastern/ North African countries is a huge problem. Youth unemployment around these areas is around 25% The global recession and rising food prices have been the last straw. When governments fall, democracy rarely wins out permanently. Many revolutions begin with good intentions. The first few elections may be 'free'. But more often than not, countries which undergo revolution end up as autocratic states. Look at Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. People were calling it the 'end of history'. They were claiming that democracy had prevailed once and for all over autocracy. Look at Russia today - Putin remains the de-facto leader while slowly eroding western ideals year by year. Simply put, I do not trust that these protests will end well at all. Have you people already forgotten the 'color revolutions' that occurred in South East Asia in the late 1980s? To this very day, The Philippines and Indonesia are rampant with corruption and dominated by private interests. While they have 'free' elections, conditions of both countries are hardly improved than when they were under despots. It's not that I don't welcome the recent protests. I'd probably even withdraw my earlier criticism that these protests are irresponsible. What I do feel obligated to point out however, is how little people are willing to look at the bigger picture. I dont think that I am not looking at the bigger picture, Ive never said that these protests were a good thing in order to change the situation, quite frankly, I can share your oppinion that odds are the situation wont be that much better after the fall of these governments. The thing I was mainly arguing is the fact that you say its not a good thing. Even knowing that the government might be the exact same in a year, I still think it is justified to protest and make your voice heard to that people around you can know whats going on. Odds are great that once the dust settles people stop caring and everything goes back to where it was, but you can never be certain about that and who knows, one day some things might actually change due to these people. The simple fact that something hasnt worked in the past shouldnt stop you from trying again. And to me, the biggest issue is those who tell these people who are trying to fight that they are stupid of doing so since nothing will happen. This is exactly the kind of opinion that will prevent things from actually changing some day. Youth unenployement and food supplies sure are extremly big issues currently, but I think that you cant pinpoint only single things. These are just some of the factors that made this round of protest finally appear, the same way that people realizing that they actually have the power to regroup themselves due to the internet is another factor. TLDR I fail to see how, if youre living in a country where there is no democracy, trying to change things around even with the knowledge that it might not, is a bad thing to do. I'll admit I was being slightly more contrary than I intended to be in my earlier posts. The point I was trying to get across was that there are more factors at work than most people realize. While the current regime in Libya is brutal and oppressive at times, that sort of thing is pretty much the status quo as far as states in that area go. The actual living conditions in Lybia are considerably better than its neighboring states. For the past decade, Libya has been undergoing a series of economic reforms with the intention of reintegrating with the global economy - They absolute poverty level is notably low (per capital GPD around $14000). Their educational reforms have given its people the highest rate of literacy among its neighbors ~90%. To be honestly, compared with neighboring countries in the area, Libya had undergone the most significant reforms over the past two decades. People like to see things as black and white. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
\NickKristof Nicholas Kristof Amazing: I hear by phone that Tajura, #Libya , less than 10 miles from Tripoli, has fallen. Rebel flag flying over it. | ||
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