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On January 06 2011 14:03 forkleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 13:56 Hikko wrote:On January 06 2011 13:26 forkleaf wrote:On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law. Translation Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please." Still waiting for a leader of a Western country to be elected who looks like this. ![[image loading]](http://postcardjunky.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/homeless-man-goes-online1.jpg) Until then, have fun trying to get a job that pays anything above minimum wage because you refuse to practice good hygiene and shave in order to prove you're so hip. Its interesting that of ALL possible images to nonchalantly use you pick the homeless guy.
![[image loading]](http://insurgencyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hipster-beard-pbr.jpg)
Is this better? His point still stands.
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On January 06 2011 14:06 zebaty wrote:
I logged in first time in ages just to post something in here.I don`t really understand why are you all so hyped about getting a job? And almost no one wants workers?:o
This summer I had an internship doing grunt-level programming and office work for a private Department of Defense contractor. Everything had been all set to go for over 6 months prior to when I was supposed to start, but the week before the interns were supposed to begin, we were all laid off due to budget constrictions...and we were making about minimum wage. Some other people at the company were laid off at the same time as well.
I spent my entire summer looking for a job. I'm smart, and I have great grades and contacts, and I am often told that I am a very hard worker. Aside from odd jobs that I would get around town (it wasn't really enough to get by), I found no employment at all for about 3 months. I applied everywhere--every restaurant, every chain store, all the grocery stores--but nobody was hiring, and they were all trying to cut salaries or lose some employees.
Thankfully, I finally landed a web design contract with the first job around 6 weeks of work. I finished the website past all of the specifications of my employer, but the man tried to get my content without paying me a cent by "having me work on something else and letting him finish the work" when it was already done (the way I worded it doesn't sound nearly as fishy and sketchy as it was), despite our contract. I was so desperate for work that I only took a small portion as a down payment, and ended up being out about $1100 and around 180 hours of my time.
+ Show Spoiler +Could I have sued him? Absolutely, but it wasn't worth the court fees or the time away from school, and I was just so sick of the situation that I just wanted to wash my hands of it. He never got his website; I deleted that crap a month after he told me he wasn't paying for it any more.
Perhaps it's just bad luck and a bad situation, but this past summer scared the crap out of me and gave me every reason to go back to school. I have the personal education on programming and web design, as well as certifications, and I know what I am doing as a web designer/programmer. Still, you need the schooling for calculus and physics at the very least, especially if you plan on going into any complex business, systems, or game programming.
Call me stupid, but I think that I never want to be an entrepreneur. If you have it in you, go for it! But even if you do, school for computer science (if that is what you want to do--make SURE this is what you want to do with the rest of your life) will only benefit you.
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I feel you , but i don`t see how you having a diploma prevents you from being fucked over ? People are son of bitches and that`s how I approach them unless proven otherwise , sad but true story. But then again , everyone knows this where I live ,especially when it comes to money 
And there are hazards everywhere ,for me it`s about risk:reward ratio , isn`t that right?
Also , I agree that there are some certain trades that require degree to even start but they are not for vast majority of people and as you said , they should be certain they want to do this. But let`s face it : most of "students" have majors that don`t lead to anything and everything they`ll be doing could be done without it , in most cases with no problems I belive
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I do not think that going to College is a necessity to have a successful life. For one thing, we have to define what it means to even have a successful life. The answer most likely varies from person to person. So I think, at least for myself, to say that it is a necessity, is sort of assuming that going to college is necessary for everyones view on what it means to have a successful life. Which is a tad bit difficult for myself to accept, so in that case, the answer is no.
Now, is a college degree necessary for certain things? Well yes, some jobs require BA's, Masters, Ph.D, you name it. And if that is the dream job for you, and you consider what ever that job does as being that thing that allows for one to have a successful life, then you may argue that College is a necessity.
In general, it is quite a loaded question, so a lot of questions must be answered. This is no objective answer I believe, if anything, it is subjective.
Although I do not think education is necessary, I still love it and recommend it for anyone. I love education, I love the idea of learning. I went to College for business, then changed to an AA (because I grew tired of business), which enabled me to move toward my love of philosophy. So my BA was centered around Philosophy. I love thinking, rationalizing, and learning new things. I also have a love for Chemistry, which is why I am trying to teach myself as much as I can. I think in my instance, College was a necessity for my desire to learn. In the internet, there is simply too much information that it makes learning difficult. You become overloaded and it becomes difficult to take in information. A college allows for one to focus in areas and not become overburdened.
Anyway, I can go on. But I will leave you all with this. Sir Ken Robinson
I really like this video, and you may not agree with him, but it is still interesting nonetheless.
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This is the part I don`t really understand. How can someone have a dream to work for someone and not wait for workers to bring the money to them eventually ?
Also , I don`t know how the students are in america but I know that I`d never hire average european graduate to sell in my grocery store or do whatever for that matter - they wouldn`t handle it as all they think about is how not to get anything done , get the money and go get fucked then laid
And again , I`m talking about average . I do understand that there are people who really want to get the knowledge and so on . But :
a) they are slowed down by the average in current state of things
b) they are certainly less than 5%
And another thing. I really do belive that succesful means that one does what he pleases and can do so. In that case it`s needed to get the means by whatever means possible ( if that makes sense) and then go on to being succesful - in a way one sees fit .That`s how i see it. I just can`t think of someone who is truly happy ( which is needed for overall "successfullness" for sure) and still HAS to do something just because someone else told them to. Maybe it`s just me but i can`t imagine such a scenario
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On January 06 2011 14:57 zebaty wrote:I feel you , but i don`t see how you having a diploma prevents you from being fucked over ? People are son of bitches and that`s how I approach them unless proven otherwise , sad but true story. But then again , everyone knows this where I live ,especially when it comes to money And there are hazards everywhere ,for me it`s about risk:reward ratio , isn`t that right? Also , I agree that there are some certain trades that require degree to even start but they are not for vast majority of people and as you said , they should be certain they want to do this. But let`s face it : most of "students" have majors that don`t lead to anything and everything they`ll be doing could be done without it , in most cases with no problems I belive
It's not directly related, but I just feel like I'd be more comfortable working for an already organized company instead of doing my own contracting as a web designer or doing run-my-own-business programming. After going to work with my brother-in-law a few years ago at a Cisco campus for a week, I rather like offices and large corporations.
Going to college gets you the better jobs in those atmospheres, and allows you to continue to progress without hitting a wall where you can't make more without more education.
The original poster wants to pursue a career in computer science. Say by the time you're 30, and you've had about 8 years of job experience as well as college work. Compare that to someone of the same age who has been working the same field of programming for 11 years, because he didn't attend college at all. If you don't have the experience in the calculus and the physics and the other math from attending school, you're a less desirable candidate.
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I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
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its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
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On January 06 2011 15:44 QuadrupleMarklar wrote:
I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
I'm not gonna say you're crazy, but using words like system (and capitalizing it no less) is sort of alarming and reminds me of the hippies of the 70s. Also, what on earth do you mean "it's a burden that no one should have"? You don't have to have a family if you don't want to.
And while Google can give you a good deal of information, it won't put you on par with someone who took advantage of an institution of higher learning. Furthermore, someone with a degree will look a lot more appealing to a company than someone who researches stuff on google alot, if everything else is equal.
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On January 06 2011 15:50 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
there is some truth to that statement lol.
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On January 06 2011 15:50 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
Ya; because condoms take 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to get.
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16986 Posts
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
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Mexico1178 Posts
On January 06 2011 18:30 Empyrean wrote:
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
who would want to go to a college
its not a neccesity, you can survive without it, but man... it open up an easier way to a better life
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Logged on to post in this thread. I think in the US it's more of a necessity to have a degree than it is in Europe. The thing is, like some people have already pointed out - some job's will require a BA/MBA etc.
I didn't go to University, but come from a background with everyone in my family having gone to university. I went to a private high school, and did my military service straight after high school, and basically started working after that. I have a background in marketing & sales, which is what I'm doing now. I work for a respected IT company, and have $80k+ salary. I have received training paid for by my employers, but for the most part it's been learning on the job, and reading books coherent to my work. Most jobs have 'required' a formal education, but I've gone through the loop holes through my network of contacts.
I will however study part time in the future to get a BA, just as a backup.
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To answer the OP question:
If you have the skills to visit a university or do a cooperative study - try to achieve the highest qualification possible and dont stop until you have mastered it or admittely reached your limit.
If you are simply not the type to do study, it is not a necessity to be successful in life.
The point is, that if you could do it, it would be a waste not to try it, if not, well so be it.
Another thing is that a done University study does not go hand in hand with success, since one-sided specialists are no longer the future. So if have any passion in your free-time - besides Starcraft  - try to master that as well as your original business. It's the multi-skill that gives you the power to come up at the top.
To give you an example, you can be an IT-expert or programmer and also due to your interest and research a well-known musician or music-expert who knows how to work within this business. Who knows which skill will open the next door in the future for you?
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i'll make this fast so you wont get bored reading it.
in the end its all relative to what you want to do. you want to be a janitor, u dont need a degree because it doesnt require the knowledge obviously. you want to go into finance, you go into university because theres no way you can learn that without the education.
as well, university is important because pretty much everyone else is taking it. before if you went to university you were original. now, you have a university degree to pretty much be on the same plane as everyone else. the world's a competitive place. you do what you gotta do to keep up with everyone and then try to stand out afterwards
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On January 06 2011 15:44 QuadrupleMarklar wrote:
I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
This is absurd. College is also about collaborating with other students and sharing/combining ideas to come up with new ideas altogether. By simply using Google for things you want to learn, you are only allowing yourself to learn things that are interesting to you, in that moment, according to your limited perspective. College forces you to hear and consider ideas of individuals, as educated or more educated than yourself, and broaden your perspectives. It's also about having a certificate that shows that you can follow through with something that takes a lot of effort (not just in class, but financing college and taking care of the administrative work to get you through). There's no proof of effort or follow-through for someone that sits in their underwear Googling things and trolling internet forums.
The friends you make at a University can often grow into professional connections that prove incredibly valuable later in life. You can't make these same connections, and if you do they certainly won't be as strong, by trolling the internet.
EDIT: I also wanted to point out that OP has already made a decision and essentially wants people to validate his opinion of school. Here's the fact: People that have not gotten a 4-year degree are going to jump at the opportunity to tell you that you don't need one, and why not, it will make them feel better about not getting one. People that have in fact gotten a degree will tend to tell you to get one, again to make themselves feel better, but they don't need to make themselves feel better because they have a degree (and thus, they have more career options available to them).
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I'm currently in junior college. I'm not sure what that makes me.
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University is needed for a lot of carrer paths. It also looks good on paper when applying for jobs. Having one doesn't say anything about where you end up though. It is a plus without a doubt.
As for needing it, no, nobody needs it. Humans can live on extremely little and still raise another generation. Then it is about what you yourself think you need to be happy. Do you need a house you own yourself? Do you need to live in the suburbs? Do you need to live in a million person city? Every single thing you consider essential raises the salary you need and thus makes it more and more necessary to get an education or work your ass of to get to the same position.
For most people they can be happy overall with a normal factory floor job even if they grumble and dislike it. Those things don't require any education to get past the door, they prefer recommendations since they want hard workers with some brains over brains that slack.
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On January 06 2011 18:30 Empyrean wrote:
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
Well... not by much. According to http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/kids/tlkidscost.asp
the average cost of raising a kid for the upper-middle-class income bracket is about $250k.
It costs $210k for 4 years at an elite institution.
Now assuming we die upon graduation (and we had our kid very early in life), we are out in the latter case not only $210k, but also at least 1/2 of our income had we worked those 4 years instead. So 2 years of average, high-school educated income is conservatively ~$40k.
This analysis is not correct if you take into account a longer lifespan, since a (n elite) college education generally correlates with a higher income.
But yeah, even on the monetary side, I think the analogy is very apt! :D
On January 07 2011 03:17 yema1 wrote:
I'm currently in junior college. I'm not sure what that makes me.
It makes you a studly young chap.
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EPT
