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Im wondering if University degree is a must have to be succesful in life.
I dont mean make millions but enough to sustain a comfortable life. I am currently enrolled in 1st year but I have to find a job to support my family due to an unexpected issue. Im not sure what to do, it seems like my world just ended.
Im 19 right now, and currently studing computer science. My goal was to open my own online business in the future, or gain experience in a work place.
Im currently unsure of which specific path i want to take, but i have a strong interest in webpage designining.
P.S - My definition of success would be living a comfortable life with your family where money doesnt interfere.
So I ask you. is University a neccesity to have a succesful life. If not, why?
Poll: Teamliquid, Do you attend university?Yes, Currently (714) 73% Yes, will in the future [Highschool] (156) 16% No, I do not have a degree (77) 8% No, Currently (26) 3% 973 total votes Your vote: Teamliquid, Do you attend university? (Vote): Yes, Currently
(Vote): No, Currently
(Vote): Yes, will in the future [Highschool]
(Vote): No, I do not have a degree
"Dreams never die"
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No (to your questions, yes I attend university). There's a lot of routes you can take to a comfortable life. Trades are a perfectly viable route, and sometimes you can get paid as you learn. Depending on where you live, there might even be a greater demand for tradesmen than university educated people.
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I'm already out and have a degree. Is it necessary? Yes and no. Plenty of people do fine without it, but the way society is structured, I think getting a degree is the norm and the expectation.
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I'm at University because I want a degree to increase the probability of occupational success. Also, there wasn't a reason for me to not attend.
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Well it definitely helps. But is not required.
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There are plenty of ways to succeed, but most of the people I know who had the opportunity to attend university and did not regret it, and even those that did regret not staying for longer (One relative wishes they had another doctorate). In general, I'd say that its probably one of the best things one can do for themselves. I've got financial support to deal with the heavy tuition I have to pay, you should look into it as well, and you can always look into a part time job
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Think of university degree as a passport that allows you to get to where you want in life much easier than normally otherwise.
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Degrees are lowering in value as time goes on. Graduating from high school is now worth less than it was 30 years ago. I believe you need a degree of some kind, but from a university is not needed.
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There are more options then Yes go to a university or no don't go.
Personally Merchant Marine was much MUCH more appealing then me then staying in college just for a piece of paper that will only help me find a job. But I also don't have a family to take care of.
But to be honest it really does depends on a lot of things. Location, how much you want/need to make to live a comfortable life (some need more then others), size family, can you attend and work, etc.
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I go to school and I don't think it's a necessity. Having a degree is nice because if makes you feel accomplished and is a even bigger deal to those who are 1st generation graduate in their family. A lot of people put a big emphasis on going to a big name school, but I don't believe it. Not saying I think it's stupid and I encourage people to try their hardest to get into one, but I think learning is what you make it out to be. It is about going to school, graduating, and applying that knowledge you attained and applying it to the real world. Some schools offer courses that will go more in-depth than others, that is for sure, but there is such a huge misconception towards "lower end universities" or community colleges.
I say it's not a necessity because school isn't for everyone. Some people do just fine having a high school degree only and possibly an AA degree. I can't speak because of my experiences, but I believe it is harder to get a job without having a higher degree. You can always work your way up, but you're gonna have to work hard and show your superiors that you deserve a promotion/raise.
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I go to uni and I wouldn't call it necessary. My dad provided me and my family a great life with very little education (working in construction). In fact, he's largely paying for my education. :O
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The way i wanna see it, it's that a University is quite the intellectual challenge that will define you, like no other endeavor would. Is it necessary for money making? Not, but it's quite helpful. That is if you man-up, and decide to major some scientific university and not some "human resources" type of university, where you practically learn bunch of useless crap.
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I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary. It does make it easier on you though. From what I've seen experience > degree. If you have two guys, one with no degree and 4 years experience in a field, and the other with a 4 year degree and no experience, the guy with the experience has the edge.
Obviously this doesn't apply to some careers like doctors/lawyers/etc, though, so it all depends on where you want to end up in life.
Edit:
On the other hand though, I would love to have a degree.....it just isn't worth it, because in the time it would take to get a degree, I could have made $210k....I would love a degree in music...but the practical side of me knows that I'll never make good money playing what I love, classical music.
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who else would have the time to spend on teamliquid and play starcraft besides university kids.
On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary. It does make it easier on you though. From what I've seen experience > degree. If you have two guys, one with no degree and 4 years experience in a field, and the other with a 4 year degree and no experience, the guy with the experience has the edge.
Obviously this doesn't apply to some careers like doctors/lawyers/etc, though, so it all depends on where you want to end up in life.
I say if you know what you want to do with your life you have all you need.
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16986 Posts
University is by no means necessary. In fact, I think it would benefit society if fewer people were to attend university and more people would attend community colleges, trade schools, or simply enter the workforce.
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On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary. It does make it easier on you though. From what I've seen experience > degree. If you have two guys, one with no degree and 4 years experience in a field, and the other with a 4 year degree and no experience, the guy with the experience has the edge.
Obviously this doesn't apply to some careers like doctors/lawyers/etc, though, so it all depends on where you want to end up in life.
True, but 4 years + university > 5 years experience would beb etter 
I agree with Empyrean, but at the current state society is in it is best for the individual to go to universtiy (in general)
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It's not a guarantee of success, but in my country at least, it's the most certain path to it. In some other countries there are other ways to provide a nice life and have decent earnings without a college degrees. In chile this is somewhat rare, unless you have some family business you can rely on. It's actually one of the worst aspects of this country. Basically, if your parents don't have college degrees they'll probably not have the money to pay for decent school, since most public schools suck badly. That means those people probably won't get into college, thus they'll not get good jobs. It's a very bad vicious circle, awfully hard to break.
So yes, here it's almost necessary to get a college degree, unless you got a good alternative planned way ahead.
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as everyone else has said, a degree will help to some extent.
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Universities are too expensive to attend in return for what they teach. Society also negatively views anyone who doesn't attend one. Therefore you fail either way.
Get thousands upon thousands in student loans of which you will be repaying for years after you graduate. You essentially dedicate 2-4yrs of your life to school learning something that might or might not repay you in the long term. Then add in another 2-4yrs for more schooling if necessary. Then spend 2-20+years repaying those debts with or without a job that you went to school for.
Or you can not go to a university, get a job, and work your way up with real life experience. You will go through life though with people having a negative view of you because you didn't go to school. That is until you start earning enough money to make it worth it.
Up to you, both choices are viable. Just decide what you wanna do. Spend 2-8yrs in school, and then the following 2-20yrs+ repaying loans to have a good job in the long run (not guaranteed). Or just get into the workforce now and get a good job in the long run (again not guaranteed).
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On January 05 2011 11:13 Froadac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary. It does make it easier on you though. From what I've seen experience > degree. If you have two guys, one with no degree and 4 years experience in a field, and the other with a 4 year degree and no experience, the guy with the experience has the edge.
Obviously this doesn't apply to some careers like doctors/lawyers/etc, though, so it all depends on where you want to end up in life. True, but 4 years + university > 5 years experience would beb etter
Maybe. Experience is so huge though. Look at job sites, and most of their requirements go something like a degree in X, or Y years of experience. Sure, if it came down to just you vs another guy, and you were exactly equal, then he would win, but this is real life, and humans are humans, so if you had 5 years of experience vs someone with one year + a degree, and you couldn't show you would be better suited for the job than him, then you deserve to lose it.
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I don't know, but maybe this is some consolation for you. I have a brother who is 38 years old. He has been working to support his wife and three kids for many years now. But 5 years ago he started to study again. In just a little while he will be a doctor.
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No, why would you think university is a necessity to be successful? You don't need a degree to be entrepreneurial.
Theres plenty of avenues in life. Apprenticeships / etc. Personally I'm glad that I'm not some poor student who struggles financially. I was relieved to leave school; I had no desire to return for another 4 at Uni.
What I'm doing now will give me more qualifications, more life experience, more travelling, more money and live comfortably during the process then I would if I chose to go to Uni.
University is not the be all and end all. That being said, just do what is best for you; which may well be University.
GL.
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This is a meaningless question. What's much more important is "what do you want to do with your life"? If the answer is something like doctor, engineer, lawyer, banker, scientist, etc., it's impossible without a college education. Find out what you want to do, and find out what kind of education/experience you need to get there. Don't just consider short term; think about the next 5, 10, and even 20 years of your life. Beyond providing academic education, higher education also allows your discover yourself and realize what you're good at.
As for money, you should consider financial aid and scholarships. You can also have a part-time or even full-time job while going to school.
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In order to make money.. EQ > IQ.
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Sydney2287 Posts
Maybe I'm blind but where's the option for 'attended'. EDIT: Is that what "No, currently" is for?
In my (limited) experience, a good work ethic (not complicated, just get things done, and done well) will get you far regardless of if you went to university or not.
If you went to university, this would be reflected in your performance at uni, and you'll probably leave, get a decent job or w/e you plan to do after uni (maybe self-employment?).
If you didn't go to university then I've got many friends who are testament to not having a degree and living 'successful' lives. Common factor for them is they work hard and apply themselves to whatever task they take on.
I wouldn't really worry too much about it if you are forced to be unable to go. I mean, if it's the case that you're simply not able to go, there's no point stressing about what it could have been because it's not going to change what happened.
And after all of that, there's nothing stopping you doing uni later on in life, some people even take the route of starting a career, and having w/e company you're working for pay for you to study down the track.
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Not sure yet, as of right now I am at uni doing a math/computing degree and i hate it (math part) to a point where i failed most of my math subjects (passed all computer subjetcs though), yet they won't let me transfer to a computer degree (which i did 90% of the subjects in already).
So I dunno, most likely I will be either kicked out of uni or finish a degree with shitty marks.
So my option is: Not sure
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i'm going to give a cop out answer and say it depends how you define success. you dont need a degree to keep your family from starving. you dont need a degree to own a house. but chances are you'll want to get yourself a degree if you want to live in a nice neighbor with good schools.
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16986 Posts
On January 05 2011 11:36 teh leet newb wrote:
You can also have a ... full-time job while going to school.
Not very successfully, you can't.
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On January 05 2011 11:42 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 11:36 teh leet newb wrote:
You can also have a ... full-time job while going to school. Not very successfully, you can't.
Think about how much time you dedicate to extracurriculars and just wasting time. At least 25 hours/week I'd say. Cut in on some sleep and you're set. If I-Bankers can work 80-100 hours a week, you can probably push yourself through a full-time job and school if you try hard enough.
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Im going but its not necessary. I know a stone mason who brings in six figures, nothing but some tradeschool there.
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It's not a necessity, and I think it's kind of bad in a way that it's seen as being SO needed. Of course receiving an education is good, but the type of education you get taking 4 (or more) years of classes at a university is only one type of education.
I also think it's dumb that some jobs require a college degree even if that degree might have nothing to do with the job. Anyone can receive a diploma...
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I think where you live is also a factor.
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Most times, the things you learn will not be able to be directly applied to any job you're doing. Ex: many people can be taught to program in Java, C, w/e for a job. But not many people can survive a rigorous university education with a deep computer science curriculum. Employers will obviously want to recruit candidates who have proven that they can learn quickly and deliver results.
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I think it is more so determined by what you want out of life, if you're comfortable with the necessaries, then why have more?
You seem to want to support your family, so I think you should stay in University and make many sacrifices to accommodate your loved ones. In the long run, the university education will pay off; the benefits might not be seen within 10 or more years, but you'll be able to live a great life one day.
Can I ask if this is a child being born? If so have you considered whether or no you were actually ready for the responsibility?
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It's absolutely not a necessity.
I dated a guy for two months who was making $130k/year by working for the oil company here in Pennsylvania, and he only had a GED, which he earned at 23 which he earned after dropping out of high school to work and support his family.
While this example is, obviously, incredibly situational, it serves to show that you need neither a university diploma to get a nice paying job, nor is your educational career done if you can't finish your formal education right now.
Hell, I'm 25 and working on my Physician Assistant degree after having dropped out of school for 4 years. Just try your best and keep an eye out knowing that you can always pick up your education later.
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it helps obviously, it really isnt a requirement or even a guarantee that youll get a job. tons of people have a degree and no job right now.
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On January 05 2011 10:54 us.insurgency wrote:
Degrees are lowering in value as time goes on. Graduating from high school is now worth less than it was 30 years ago. I believe you need a degree of some kind, but from a university is not needed.
Yeah its worth less because more people do it, thus you are nothing special if you do. Now if you don't, it is more detrimental than it was 30 years ago, because you are in the minority.
Degrees are heading in the same direction.
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Remember, you don't have to be young to get a degree. I've seen some old looking people in a few of my classes.
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I tried writing something but it got too complicated and I'd have to write you a novel.
My question BACK to you would be are you asking yourself the right question?
From the sounds of things (sorry I haven't quite read the entire thread for detail for your replies) it seems that you just need money. There are plenty of careers (crafts like carpentry, electrician, plumbing) that can make you money that don't require a degree.
A degree doesn't guarantee you more money. Not having a degree doesn't guarantee you less money. However, having a degree guarantees you more of a "well defined" and "socially acceptable" route to making more money. Question is, can you afford sh*t pay for 4 years to make better starting wages but not necessarily better overall wages then someone who hasn't gone to uni.
To give you an example. Say you want to be in I.T. You can do two things:
1. Do a computer science degree - in australia this involves finishing the HSC (2 optional years of highschool) and then a 3 year degree. So, in summary you need to do 5 years of study and pay money for a degree to get a good starting wage. You starting wage will probabbly be somethign along the lines of $600 - $700 a week (figures used for comparison)
2. Do a qualification or certificate at a college or certified institution or an apprenticeship - You'll start on something like $300 a week (comparitive figures) buit chances are that in about 5 years you will get enough promotions and training opportunities to get you to $700 a week if not more.
So, then the question becomes, what's the social stigma when it comes to "not having a degree"? Well, I can only speak from experience and the opinions of people around me -> EXPERIENCE COUNTS, f*ck degrees. As one project manager put it to me "I never hire computer science graduates, I hire based on experience." I was bemused and said "why" to which he replied "because the computer scientist always wants to tell me about how windows is shit and linux is superior and about how he wants to change the world with new programming paradigms. The person with experience just goes in and does the job that I asked".
Does this help? I'm sorry it's a bit disjointed.
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You definitely do not a college degree to be successful, or so my friends have convinced me.
While I went the university route, they went to work. Several of them own their own business that they, for the most part, have started up and put a lot of work into them, while other just expanded their family business and took control of the expansions. They are all younger then 25, and make plenty of money to afford a new house and lots of unnecessary crap, granted their all single.
When they first started it was though, but they stuck through it and are now reaping the benefits.
So bottom line, you don't need a college degree, they barely got through High School and are doing good.
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16986 Posts
Of course, you do have to take into consideration the vast number of people who didn't go to college and also failed. Basically what it comes down to is this: if you are hard working, have a good work effort, and are willing to sacrifice, then you will be successful whether or not you go to university.
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It's what's necessary for you to make your life comfortable. Some university degrees are useless compared to others. Then it's how you use that degree to make your life comfortable. But there are so many other ways to have a comfortable life. Just look ahead at what you want to do and the process that is necessary to make it to that place.
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There will always be people who are successful without university degrees. But if you look at the vast majority of very successful people in the world, they have degrees. That doesnt necessarily mean the degree made them successfull (it probably helped out though). But generally speaking the people who have degrees are the people with the drive to make themselves better. A degree will help you along this path. And you cant be a professional without one. But if you truly do not want to go or cannot afford university, there are ways to still be successful. It May just be harder, and it might be a different path than you are expecting.
That said, Get a degree, I have one and I dont regret it in the slightest, it makes any career change or choice that much easier to attain. Your resume looks prettier, and even if the job you are applying for has nothing to do with your degree, having a degree pretty much says "hey, Im not stupid, and I am responsible"
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I think it depends on what's your definition of success.
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It's not necessary, but it really helps you find a good job. Many universities have connections with past alumni and interviewers. That alone helps a ton. A degree in a field is also a nice piece of proof of your expertise. Plus, you can learn a lot in University classes. Having a professor and peers to talk with really does help you learn.
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On January 05 2011 12:27 Empyrean wrote:
Of course, you do have to take into consideration the vast number of people who didn't go to college and also failed. Basically what it comes down to is this: if you are hard working, have a good work effort, and are willing to sacrifice, then you will be successful whether or not you go to university.
Even that isn't true. What should be taken from your words is: "Nothing is certain".
Everyone in a way is unique, some people are capable of operating and live successful, fulfilling lives while those same type of people; live a horrible life.
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You definitely don't need a degree to make good money. Even great money. Work your way up, you can get education while you work as you develop your career.
University can be very valuable. But go there with a plan. Take something that will teach you employable skills. Lots of people have gone to school in philosophy or geography or whatever and ended up wasting time with no real career benefits.
Many people feel (and I agree) that there is currently a "higher education bubble":
http://washingtonexaminer.com/node/470261
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Just look at data and think about it logically. Assume that you're average. Unless you're a genius/extremely entrepreneurial/have some sort of lucky break, you can be considered about average. And on average, people with a high school education make $30,400/year, compared to $52,200/year for people with a bachelor's. You can talk about examples of people without degrees being successful, but the honest truth is that it's much less likely.
(Source: http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-education/learning-center/education-value.html)
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16986 Posts
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Having a degree from a school of any kind will, generally, set you up for at least a better lifestyle than not having one.
However,
There are tons of people out there who are successful with not having degree under their belt who are living a comfortable lifestyle. My parents did live a comfortable lifestyle without having a degree for 10 years( reason I say did is because the economy has yet to pick up thus we are still struggling). I knew people whose friends, with no degree, live a nice life from their own business (pressure washing cleaning company, lawn mowing business, etc.)
You need to realize, as most have said, that YOU decide how comfortable YOUR lifestyle will be. If you work hard, you will find a way to be happy. You just need to find a way. That is the hard part. There are option available always. Always.
If you feel that having a degree is the way to go but you can't, then put a hold on your life till you built a strong foundation (obviously last resort and confident with your decision). Better to have your units in position and ready then to just rush in to the base uncoordinated.
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it depends what u want to do, whether u want to go under skills trade, u wanna a professional career, or u wanna be the mcdonald guy serving burgers  if u want to be big u gotta get training in something or else ur gonna have to work a minimum wageer
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16986 Posts
To OP, would you mind filling us in on more information? Such as your current situation (where do you live, your responsibilities/obligations, etc.) and where you want to see yourself in five, ten, or more years?
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University is necessary, don't believe in anything else some of these people say otherwise. Not everyone can be like Bill Gate and drop out of college/Harvard and become successful. Having an University degree is like having a high school degree now, everyone has one and it's a bare requirement to achieve for almost any job that is not based on minimum wage.
It is still possible to get an "ok" job without any sort of tertiary education depending on the country you live in. The good thing about American schools is that you can drop out and come back again to school as long as you give your school a good reason. Don't worry about stopping school as long as you have a legitimate reason.
Other alternatives are getting certified for other fields(I.T related) or other specializations(technical, culinary schools) that you have to look into yourself.
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bubblegumbo wrote :Having an University degree is like having a high school degree now, everyone has one and it's a bare requirement to achieve for almost any job that is not based on minimum wage.
It is EXACTLY the same way here in India. I think Asia is a lot more competitive than people think. Everybody is doing masters here and that too in multiple fields!
Ok back to the question-
No and Yes. The degree is not required to be successful in life IF you are aiming to do something different, something unorthodox but if you are going to opt for normal jobs then a degree is a must for getting a decent job. That's the way the world is.
The safest possible route is to go to university and study. Yeah, no drugs or booze just really focus on studies. There's no point in going to university if you planning on partying 24/7.
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It largely depends on what you want to do in life. If you want to be a scientist, engineer, doctor or lawyer then an undergraduate degree is a required starting point. In engineering, many universities have high paying co-op programs where you alternate between semesters of school and work. You come out in 5 years with 2.5 years of experience and little debt if you live within your means(the co-op jobs usually pay ~25$ an hour). Most graduate programs in the technical fields come with stipends for research, and most companies provide tuition re-imbursement for technical employees to go to graduate school part time.
If you have the money and genuinely want to explore intellectual avenues, then liberal arts degrees are awesome for that. The point of liberal arts programs are not to provide technical training, but to shape you into a better rounded person. Even if the degree is not applicable to your field of employment, they can set you up for a number of reasonably decent careers in fields like education and human resources. International relations, with a language, is another great field if you are interested in languages, and you will always be highly employable in that even though it is a liberal arts degree.
It is possible to work hard and get ahead with no degree, but you will need to have a drive and work ethic that really sets you apart from your peers. You can make a decent living in manufacturing, the service industries, and other fields, but you will have no room for career advancement, unless you have the means and exceptional drive to start your own business. The majority of small businesses lose money and fail within the first year, so it is a large risk and dependent on your entrepreneurial ability.
From my experience as an engineer in the manufacturing industry, a non college graduate with 4 years of experience will make about the same as a new college graduate, but a college graduate with 5 years of experience will make far more then a non college graduate with 10 years of experience.
Another thing to look at is the type of work you can expect to do as a college graduate versus as a non college graduate. Do you want to work behind a desk, or do you prefer work with your hands and body? Manual labor/service industry jobs are often hard and exhausting, so it is an important distinction to consider. I know I would last about 10 minutes as a construction worker. You will spend a huge portion of your adult life doing your job, so make sure to set yourself up for something you will enjoy.
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i would say yes unless you are fairly talented or passionate about something in particular. most people do not really experience this (other than maybe a passing phase etc...).
also its a great time to network, make friends, and think about what you want to do with your life.
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Another thing to look at before you get a degree is how hard you want to work. You can get to just about any reasonable level of income you wish without a degree if you really apply yourself, and be smart about it. Find a job that does an apprenticeship or something of the sort, get paid while you learn, and work up in the ranks of a trade or something. Definitely not the sexiest thing out there, but very possible. I know some plumbers who earn ~$35 an hour, working 50-60 hour weeks. All they have is their plumbing license, and are in a bit of a specialty field.
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Depends on what you're trying to do man. CS -> the more exp the better.
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Going to university you'll meet interesting people(and pretty girls) it would be hard to meet otherwise and for that alone it might be worth it. You don't need a degree to survive life though. To most jobs, a degree is just a piece of paper that says you can follow simple directions. There are plenty of jobs that don't require a degree. You should only go to university if you want to have one of those jobs that does require one in the future and, this is the important part, you know what that job is before enrolling. A philosophy degree isn't all that helpful, you won't get hired as an assistant philosopher somewhere.
If you want to go to school, do it, it can be rewarding. But choose a useful major.
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I strongly disagree with the conventional ideology of Western people; whom are obsessed with the concept of: going to high school, collage, university, securing a career and always doing what their families, friends and the media tell them to. Why not instead of relying on others to make the decisions that will effect the outcome of your likely to be insignificant life; perhaps make these on your own?
Consider your values; you cannot have everything you want. Even Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and other uber-billionaires are incapable of it; since they used their early years to secure their fortunes. Which of course required them working their asses off; struggling emotionally because of insecurities and depression which were a result of never experiencing the finer things in life; including: travel, relationships (friends+sexual), entertainment, food and relaxation. Unless of course, they enjoyed the power.
So why not, invest the remaining time you have; and live life to the best of your abilities.
Don't take the realism negatively, I mean it because you seem like an honest person; as supported by your willingness to give up opportunity to support people you care about. It is admiral of someone in your position.
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On January 05 2011 13:26 bubblegumbo wrote:
University is necessary, don't believe in anything else some of these people say otherwise. Not everyone can be like Bill Gate and drop out of college/Harvard and become successful. Having an University degree is like having a high school degree now, everyone has one and it's a bare requirement to achieve for almost any job that is not based on minimum wage.
Uh, no it's not. My father grew up poor in Portugal and had to drop out of school in like the 6th grade to start working and help his family survive. He and my mother now own 2 houses here in NJ and are pretty damn successful. They've worked their asses off to get where they were and it has paid off immensely. My father started off doing manual labor for a construction company and worked his way up to make a pretty good amount of money. My mother went from making cleaning houses to get by to getting a job at a hospital in the Environmental service department. I currently don't have a college degree (in this process of getting one) and I make enough money to live on my own, pay off all expenses and still have left over money for whatever.
What it comes down to is how hard you work. If you're a hard worker, you will make money with or without a degree. A degree is only going to help you get that first job quicker or help you get into that $50+ /hour job after a few years of experience. Without the degree, you'll very rarely get the $50+ /hour job, but you could definitely shoot for the $20-$30 /hour job if you work hard. This isn't just a "rare" occurrence either. I know many other people that barely have a high school education and make a comfortable living. Yes, they have to work harder than someone with a college degree, but it works for them.
To the OP. You can probably try working 40 hours per week and still go to school if you can somehow arrange student loans. It won't be easy, but if you really want to go to a University, then it is possible. If not, you can always go back to school later in life when your family situation is good.
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No, but its certainly easier with a degree. A computer science degree is a very secure degree, in that the industry is expanding and the jobs pay well. You could probably still make money with web design though, if you have taken some of those classes even though you havent graduated. And if you wanted to you could ditch CS and take up a completely different trade, which as people have said you can be paid as an apprentice.
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United States22883 Posts
It's absolutely not a necessity, but you're asking the wrong question. It's like asking yourself, "Do I need to go to this party to hook up with someone?" Absolutely not, but it increases your opportunity. I don't think anyone can deny that.
How much is variable depending on what you want to do, what you're studying, where you go, who you know, etc. but even attending the smallest community college will probably increase the number of opportunities to find yourself a niche.
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No, but you need the have experience or higher learning in a vocational field that people need, Its just often looked down upon because society is geared towards people with formal college degrees.
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On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary.
Edit:
On the other hand though, I would love to have a degree.....it just isn't worth it, because in the time it would take to get a degree, I could have made $210k....I would love a degree in music...but the practical side of me knows that I'll never make good money playing what I love, classical music.
Helps for math, $55k*4 = $220k
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United States22883 Posts
On January 05 2011 15:10 Edahspmal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary.
Edit:
On the other hand though, I would love to have a degree.....it just isn't worth it, because in the time it would take to get a degree, I could have made $210k....I would love a degree in music...but the practical side of me knows that I'll never make good money playing what I love, classical music. Helps for math, $55k*4 = $220k
He said he'd be a music major.
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Canada13389 Posts
At the moment if you want to do anything in a professional work environment (hired by a company) or do contract work you need a form of credential. This means that even in the trades a credential like a certificate is necessary and while this doesnt require university it requires more than just highschool. Even miners need to go to miners college and complete a certificate program before mining coal, nickel etc.
Apprenticeships also involve some form of course work post high school. The only thing that doesnt require post school work is a business that doesnt require certification (few and far between nowadays) and professional sports.
On January 05 2011 14:43 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 13:26 bubblegumbo wrote:
University is necessary, don't believe in anything else some of these people say otherwise. Not everyone can be like Bill Gate and drop out of college/Harvard and become successful. Having an University degree is like having a high school degree now, everyone has one and it's a bare requirement to achieve for almost any job that is not based on minimum wage.
Uh, no it's not. My father grew up poor in Portugal and had to drop out of school in like the 6th grade to start working and help his family survive. He and my mother now own 2 houses here in NJ and are pretty damn successful. They've worked their asses off to get where they were and it has paid off immensely. My father started off doing manual labor for a construction company and worked his way up to make a pretty good amount of money. My mother went from making cleaning houses to get by to getting a job at a hospital in the Environmental service department. I currently don't have a college degree (in this process of getting one) and I make enough money to live on my own, pay off all expenses and still have left over money for whatever. What it comes down to is how hard you work. If you're a hard worker, you will make money with or without a degree. A degree is only going to help you get that first job quicker or help you get into that $50+ /hour job after a few years of experience. Without the degree, you'll very rarely get the $50+ /hour job, but you could definitely shoot for the $20-$30 /hour job if you work hard. This isn't just a "rare" occurrence either. I know many other people that barely have a high school education and make a comfortable living. Yes, they have to work harder than someone with a college degree, but it works for them. To the OP. You can probably try working 40 hours per week and still go to school if you can somehow arrange student loans. It won't be easy, but if you really want to go to a University, then it is possible. If not, you can always go back to school later in life when your family situation is good.
My family also comes from Portugal and neither of them have a degree (not even high school) but coming from another country and building a life as an immigrant in the past is different from a 19 year old who is growing up here in north america today. Again, even construction workers to do more than drywalling need some level of coursework and certificate which involves college (Canadian college is 2 year degree not university degree idk what it is in US community college?) nowadays.
What my dad does now (Car Autobody) requires at least 1 year of courses and 5 years apprenticing or 2-3 years courses and 2 years apprenticing to get a certificate to do it 1) officially and 2) get paid a decent wage.
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On January 05 2011 15:15 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 15:10 Edahspmal wrote:On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary.
Edit:
On the other hand though, I would love to have a degree.....it just isn't worth it, because in the time it would take to get a degree, I could have made $210k....I would love a degree in music...but the practical side of me knows that I'll never make good money playing what I love, classical music. Helps for math, $55k*4 = $220k He said he'd be a music major.
Music is maths. :-D
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On January 05 2011 15:21 ZeromuS wrote:
What my dad does now (Car Autobody) requires at least 1 year of courses and 5 years apprenticing or 2-3 years courses and 2 years apprenticing to get a certificate to do it 1) officially and 2) get paid a decent wage.
I have an Uncle who was taught through experience; his father gave him a dirt bike and told him to diagnose and fix the issue; with help of course. Through that knowledge he became a industrial refrigeration repair man, with no high school diploma, and no trade degree. He pretty much told the man that was interviewing him, that if he didn't perform to a certain standard within a one month period of time he could fire him.
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Why are you asking other people whether you need to do university in order to be succesful in life? Define for yourself when you'd consider your life a succes and pursue that as your goal. When you're asking other people you're asking for what would make you considered succesful in society, but society doesn't equal life.
In society you'd overall be considered more succesful with a degree, in life it doesn't matter since there's no good or wrong, only people judge. So, if you're asking if you need a degree to feel fulfilled or happy, definitely not. If you're asking for succes in societies' eyes, it definitely wouldn't hurt 
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It's definitely not necessary, but I feel that it is helpful in terms of job security. I don't want to work at a job for fifteen years and then get laid off because some kid with a degree is willing to work for less money.
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There was a pretty depressing article posted on the science reddit about this..
Having a degree is not much anymore, tons of people get out of college with a masters and can't even find a job in their field regardless.
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University isn't strictly necessary, but it will allow you to meet people and do things that you might not ordinarily been privy to. (and I'm not talking about being drunk all the time and acting like a cock) Life is short, do what makes you happy and can lead to happiness later. It's all about experiences.
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I went into college with real, employable skills. I'm in my 3rd year and thanks to a lot of the classes I take, I have those same (albeit somewhat diminished from lack of use) skills. Now, though, I can talk with the high-brow arrogance of an ivy-educated douchebag. But deep down inside, my dreams and self-esteem have been crushed. Sometimes I secretly wish I'd just taken a few relevant courses at a community college instead of spending >200k on a brand-name school.
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On January 05 2011 15:55 Fa1nT wrote:
There was a pretty depressing article posted on the science reddit about this..
Having a degree is not much anymore, tons of people get out of college with a masters and can't even find a job in their field regardless.
The LostGeneration subreddit is full of stuff like this.
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University shouldn't be a choice you make because society made you it's bitch. You should make that choice because YOU want it. Not the guy down the street, not even your parents. You and you only, should decide. Even then, It should be something you enjoy, and are happy with. Don't give a damn about these "good degrees" and "bad degrees". There only exists "degrees I would find enjoyable" in my eyes.
It just so happens my enjoyable degree was CS. It wasn't even pressured on me. I just made the decision when the time was right.
America sucks in this regard. They put way too much pressure on 15-17 year olds about college, and how they MUST GO. It's a whole different ethos here in the UK. Sure you can go to University, but guess what? If you don't wanna go, theres tons of other enjoyable things you can do in life, without having to put yourself through physical and mental trauma just because a bunch of marketers from Universities across the country said you should do so.
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Going the university/college route is much safer in this day and age, you could try to wing it and roll the dice but you'll have no one to blame but yourself later on when you're stuck at a dead-end job. Don't let anyone fool you, experience is important, no doubt, but without a certificate you will start off with a meager job and minimal pay, your chances for promotion get slashed, and the chances of you attaining any higher position, in whatever career path that you may be fortunate enough to find looking for a non-accredited, non-certified employee, are about zero. Unless you have some good connections, don't bother.
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Having a degree is often very helpful. However, the true reason why you should attend college or university... CSL!!!!!!! Can't be on a team if you don't go to a college!
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On January 05 2011 15:57 Gummy wrote:
I went into college with real, employable skills. I'm in my 3rd year and thanks to a lot of the classes I take, I have those same (albeit somewhat diminished from lack of use) skills. Now, though, I can talk with the high-brow arrogance of an ivy-educated douchebag. But deep down inside, my dreams and self-esteem have been crushed. Sometimes I secretly wish I'd just taken a few relevant courses at a community college instead of spending >200k on a brand-name school.
I can't imagine spending 200k on school. At MOST I will be in debt to about 35k, but that doesn't account for the Georgia HOPE I'm about to receive which will make it less than half that. Unfortunately, I went in to college unsure of what to do and that cost me some time and money, but now that I am 100% sure of what I want to do, I'm going to do it even if it takes me 5 years to complete as opposed to the 'normal' 4 years if I had known what I wanted to do. Either way, I'm learning stuff and the degree I'm choosing is directly applicable and helpful in my future career field.
-New Computer Sci Major
I look at it this way, I can either be taught and get a foundation of knowledge taught to me or I can take a gamble and try to teach it to myself when I have little to no understanding of everything involved and what I need to succeed. For me, the cost of college is nothing compared to what I'm prepared to gain.
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The college degree is not essential to achieving success. It is however one of the best investment you can pay for to help.
In real world, having a degree is so the Human Resource department have a reasonable degree of assurance that you have the skill required for the role.
To achieve success, you only need hard work and the fortune to know the right person at the right time.
For OP's case, if he still want to pursue the CS path then there is no reason that he can't study in his own time. CS is one of those majors where vast amount of knowledge can be obtained on line, the same can not be said for other fields.
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On January 05 2011 16:14 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 15:57 Gummy wrote:
I went into college with real, employable skills. I'm in my 3rd year and thanks to a lot of the classes I take, I have those same (albeit somewhat diminished from lack of use) skills. Now, though, I can talk with the high-brow arrogance of an ivy-educated douchebag. But deep down inside, my dreams and self-esteem have been crushed. Sometimes I secretly wish I'd just taken a few relevant courses at a community college instead of spending >200k on a brand-name school. I can't imagine spending 200k on school. At MOST I will be in debt to about 35k, but that doesn't account for the Georgia HOPE I'm about to receive which will make it less than half that. Unfortunately, I went in to college unsure of what to do and that cost me some time and money, but now that I am 100% sure of what I want to do, I'm going to do it even if it takes me 5 years to complete as opposed to the 'normal' 4 years if I had known what I wanted to do. Either way, I'm learning stuff and the degree I'm choosing is directly applicable and helpful in my future career field. -New Computer Sci Major I look at it this way, I can either be taught and get a foundation of knowledge taught to me or I can take a gamble and try to teach it to myself when I have little to no understanding of everything involved and what I need to succeed. For me, the cost of college is nothing compared to what I'm prepared to gain.
I can't imange spending 200k unless it was grad school, for basic degress, community and state college is good enough.
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On January 05 2011 11:36 teh leet newb wrote:
This is a meaningless question. What's much more important is "what do you want to do with your life"? If the answer is something like doctor, engineer, lawyer, banker, scientist, etc., it's impossible without a college education. Find out what you want to do, and find out what kind of education/experience you need to get there. Don't just consider short term; think about the next 5, 10, and even 20 years of your life. Beyond providing academic education, higher education also allows your discover yourself and realize what you're good at.
As for money, you should consider financial aid and scholarships. You can also have a part-time or even full-time job while going to school.
this is where many people fall short of their goals. How the heck are you supposed to know what you're good at. There are so many paths to choose from, so no, don't look for what you're good at, just find what you're interested in. Barely 1% of the population ever finds their perfect fit, society is made up of people falling short of their goals and settling in a lesser career.
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well in short, a degree from a university is not the easy answer for a comfortable money situation. being able to budget is. and if you are going into computer science you are , in my opinion much better served starting in a community college where your tution expenses actually are faverable in comparison to projected income after graduation.
if your goal is simply to make the most money possible the easyiest way possible at something you sorta enjoy,finding the CHEAPEST edjucation is the best bet. be it certifications, an associates or what have you. contrary to what most people believe the name of the school has no bearing whatsoever on your future income i recently read about a study in which the average ivy league graduate earns no more (on average) than a community college graduate for comparable degrees. while the ivy leaguer is now in debt around $60,000-$100,000 compared to the 10,000-25,000 of the community college grad. this is a HUGE difference in money especially when the average IT position is around 60k a year.
even when looking at degrees the average increase of pay between having an associates compared to a bachelors is not enough to pay for the difference in education costs.
for any job beyond entry level SOME education beyond high school is almost a definite necessity. it is more of a formality to prove that you have the drive to succeed that companies would look for along with some sort of proof that you have an idea of what you are doing.
now if you expect to be some sort of entrepreneur or amazing businessman then more education is definitely better, a four year college benefits you not only with the knowledge and "paper proof"of that knowledge but gives the chance to grow as a person and learn how to be a responsible adult, and with drive you will succeed at whatever you want and money will be no object.
thats my take on it. either get the cheapest education possible if you just want to make ~100,000 a year or go all out and stick with it to get a masters or doctorate in a good school and open your self up to a life of constant struggle to achieve more.
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Fearus said it the most correct (In my opinion, on first page ^_^)
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College is very good to have on your resume. Furthermore it opens up co-ops and internships that normally people your age would not be able to apply for. Make sure you do those, as just a degree is not nearly as good as degree + work experience at pretigious companies that come to schools scouting for talent.
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University is by no means necessary, but in the meantime it is, here let me explain what I mean by that. If you just got out of high school, and are out into the real world, and have to decide which route to take in life, you need to consider your skills and what you are capable of. Here are a couple of examples of what I mean by that.
Example 1:
You weren't very popular in HS, you didn't make a lot of friends, so you don't have many connections made. The only people you know are via the internet, but they cannot help you in any way for you to be able to sustain your life on your own without the help of your parents/guardians and relatives. You don't have a particular set of skills which would encourage an employer to hire you, and you can't start your own business; find a way to make money on your own. So the only things left for you to do are either go to a university or find a minimum wage job near your home, because you need a way to make money. In this case the person would need to attend a university/a higher school in order to be able to make it in life. Or they can also consider joining the military, but they would need to be in excellent shape to do this.
Example 2:
You just graduated HS. You made a lot of friends that you still keep in contact with, and you are a very good construction worker. You have been involved in this field since early age and are as talented and experienced as most post-university students. Your friends also have a particular set of skills that they can use in order to make money, so you work together with them by offering your services for a decent pay, and are able to make as much money as a grad student. In this case you don't need a university.
tldr; if you have connections//skills of some kind then you don't particuarly need a degree in order to make it into the real world, but if you are not skilled in anything/don't know many ways from which you can earn money//make a living, then a university would be your best bet for a better life. It all depends on the person involved.
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You can learn anything by experience and get any job if you manage to show that you know your stuff. A university degree improves your chances since it says "you know at least enough to pass", making employers favour you to someone who claims to have X years experience who does _not_ manage to show what he knows.
Employers actually don't care about degrees or experience, they care about people knowing enough to do their job good. Degrees and experience gives them the hint that you fit the requirement and reduce the risk in employing you and finding out that you are a total scrub. This is a reason why people with degrees usually get higher starting salary, the risk is just lower. It evens out over time.
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Not for me...I'm hoping to get into concept art....I can self-study if needed.
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Where is the poll option for "I have graduated, and I have my degree"?
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even if university does not add much to your human capital, it is a strong signaling effect to tell others that you are good particular if you are graduating from a famous school.
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Dear OP,
I had thought throughout my life that I wanted to program video games for a living; deciding on computer science as a good career path. In high school I was a nerdy kid and somewhat of an outcast. I had only three people I could call my good friends that I hung out with frequently.
After high school I got myself a job and moved out shortly after turning 18 to experience living on my own and to see what that would be like without college. I must admit I hated working the low end job but the year I spent working I met many many more people, my social life exploded. I made some decent cash too, but I decided I wanted to go after my dream.
So I started going to Metro State College of Denver for a computer science degree, and I immediately hated it. I had taken a couple of classes in high school learning Java and the way basic Cisco systems operated, but I did not like the courses in the college I was attending. So I switched majors to Finance. I did enjoy myself a little better, but my heart is still not in it, and I no longer feel that pursuing a degree is the right choice for me.
Going to college during this time in my life feels like more of a waste than a benefit. I find the system of getting degrees confusing, and abstract, I honestly didn't know what to expect from college. I still don't understand what it is I'm getting from my degree other than proof that I can show up on time regularly, complete tasks assigned, follow instruction, and learn some general education about the subject you're interested in along the way. Which is obviously a good thing to be able to prove, but to me not worth the price tag.
So now I want to pursue my creative interests. I don't know where this path will take me and it certainly may be a harder path to take instead of college. If I do well and get promoted before long with a part time job I could afford go after my interests in an attempt to bolster my income.
Most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. They might have an idea, but more often than not they find out that's not at all what they are interested in. Sometimes that isn't until they rack up some debt and waste a year or two in college. It's not the end of the world if you have to take a year or two off to help support your family. You might find a different part of yourself during that time, and your attitude towards college may change. It will still always be an option.
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Where is the poll for I already attended a college or university?
Also, I believe it is not necessary to attend one to be successful. And of course, as you mentioned, success is relative to your own goals. You don't need a degree to live a full and happy life, but it usually does help.
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I got a master degree in business intelligence, and currently works as a consultant. I don't really enjoy it. I'm going to open a restaurant next year, which basically doesn't require any degree. The point is, if I had done a vocational training diploma in the food sector when I was 16 instead of long studies, I would have ended up as a cook at the local canteen.
My master degree gave me the opportunity to expatriate myself in Shanghai, to understand how to run a business properly, it gave me more ambition.
Were my studies interesting ? No.
Do I like the job that fits the best what I studied ? Not really.
But I do not regret studying at all, and it gave me so many opportunities that I can't advice anyone not to study.
To reply your question, my real passion is gastronomy, and even though I got a good salary and live in a great apartment with my wife, I don't really consider myself as "successful" as a business intelligence consultant. I don't get any satisfaction from my job. I will feel successful when people will leave my restaurant with a smile, glad to have had a nice dinner. So the answer for me is that you have to study if it's the only way for you to do your dream job. As I said if I had just done a vocational training I would be a poor cook at the local high school canteen now 
You're interested in web design, I think Spartan on TL (the guy who always advertises for his fastest map ladder) got a great job as a web designer, and he doesn't have much degrees, but he's quite talented and got a nice portfolio.
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Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky"
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I plan on going to gradschool so it matters a lot to me now..... I think it is important so far as to set you up for your first job. This includes getting internships, research, honors, and your interview for the job. You need good grades for all of these, and your first job and how you do in it will really matter in the long run IMO.
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I'm attending but only as an excuse to get student loans since I'm way too lazy to work a 10$/Hour job.
I have no idea wtf I'm doing, I'll probably never finish and I don't see any other viable options, nothing interests me other than stuff I'm way too dumb for...
Baww
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99.99% of successful person graduated. So don't take risk, get a degree.
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mmm, no
I don't even see the connection.
So far I haven't even heard of a succesful life.
We are all failures, all we can do is to fail in an entertaining fashion.
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On January 05 2011 19:50 Switch221 wrote:
So now I want to pursue my creative interests. I don't know where this path will take me and it certainly may be a harder path to take instead of college. If I do well and get promoted before long with a part time job I could afford go after my interests in an attempt to bolster my income.
Yeah man, I'm right there with you, gl!
To the OP, depends what your goals are, what your idea of success is. For me, it seems like all my idols (writers, comedians, musicians) are telling me to get the fuck out of education, so I did. My family don't understand why I don't want the same things they do, but my friends know me better and understand completely so it's all good.
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On January 05 2011 20:47 pedduck wrote:
99.99% of successful person graduated. So don't take risk, get a degree.
Define successful?
People who get degrees are most likely going to learn a cookie-cutter skill then sit at a desk doing what a boss tells them to. There are obvious exceptions.
The people that "suceed" are the ones that manage to take what they love and turn it into a career. People with that sort of ambition and confidence don't need a degree anyway (even though they probably have one).
It's just much easier to slot into society having gone to University. You make contacts and learn a lot of things that quite frankly you should have been taught at school but didn't. But it definitely isn't a neccessity.
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Wtf? 200k debt at school? Even the ridiculous for-profit art schools don't take THAT much...
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a 'neccesity' is something you cannot do without. Therefore, university is not a neccesity, but you would have a REALLY hard time without it. And just think about it, of course you have to now work to support your family, but the family is going to be fine someday, and it will be hard to get into university later for you.
Besides, you can always get a job according to your specialization in this case, computer science.
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well, it's sure not a necessity but it will help.
Personally, I don't have one. I have a programming college diploma (between school and university in Quebec) and I'm really find with it.
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On January 05 2011 10:46 Chef wrote:
No (to your questions, yes I attend university). There's a lot of routes you can take to a comfortable life. Trades are a perfectly viable route, and sometimes you can get paid as you learn. Depending on where you live, there might even be a greater demand for tradesmen than university educated people.
Only read the OP and first reply, because it was so good. I can speak from experience on this one. I haven't even completed my high school education, but I got involved in the trades (Scaffolding, to be specific), and really fell in love with my job. I completed the entire apprecticeship in record time and now I make 50$ and hour. I also work union, so Fridays I get overtime, and Saturday/Sunday I get doubletime. If you work the long shifts and get lots of hours, you can easily make 120k+ a year. I typically work the warmer months of the year, and take the winters off to spend time with my family and video games. Don't think you need university to make money/be comfortable in life. But don't let people tell you that you don't need an EDUCATION unless you are one of those few people that get are extremely entrepreneurial and get a little lucky. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.
PS: If you do decide to look into the trades, I REALLY suggest you get into a union. They treat you very good, you don't have to look hard to find a job, you get educated, and you learn to do things the right way. Don't let people who don't know what they're talking about brainwash you into thinking unions are bad.
edit: I also wanted to point out that when your parents were growing up, going to school/university and getting a desk job meant you and your family would be well off and comfortable. These days that isn't the case. Tradeskills aren't promoted enough in this day and age, they are definitely more viable(I hate to use this word here) than deskjobs these days. That is if you don't mind a little manual labor/working with your hands.
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If you have some experience to speak of at this point then you may not need to attend a university, but having a degree is a good thing to have in the long run, whether you think you can at this point or not its hard to say. However, if you only need to maintain a job for a little while to help out, you could consider doing both or coming back to the university at some point in the future.
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On January 05 2011 21:13 dANiELcanuck wrote:
PS: If you do decide to look into the trades, I REALLY suggest you get into a union. They treat you very good, you don't have to look hard to find a job, you get educated, and you learn to do things the right way. Don't let people who don't know what they're talking about brainwash you into thinking unions are bad.
Be careful about unions, you should only join one if your employer approves of it or you could be losing your job very quickly.
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Be careful about unions, you should only join one if your employer approves of it or you could be losing your job very quickly.
Whoa whoa, is this standard thinking for job-applying in the united states? like a "basic" concern for getting a job?
(I was under the impression that one has the right to organize etc?)
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On January 05 2011 21:26 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +Be careful about unions, you should only join one if your employer approves of it or you could be losing your job very quickly. Whoa whoa, is this standard thinking for job-applying in the united states? like a "basic" concern for getting a job? (I was under the impression that one has the right to organize etc?)
This. I was under the impression that unions were to stop you getting fired for dumb reasons.
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On January 05 2011 21:13 dANiELcanuck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 10:46 Chef wrote:
No (to your questions, yes I attend university). There's a lot of routes you can take to a comfortable life. Trades are a perfectly viable route, and sometimes you can get paid as you learn. Depending on where you live, there might even be a greater demand for tradesmen than university educated people. Only read the OP and first reply, because it was so good. I can speak from experience on this one. I haven't even completed my high school education, but I got involved in the trades (Scaffolding, to be specific), and really fell in love with my job. I completed the entire apprecticeship in record time and now I make 50$ and hour. I also work union, so Fridays I get overtime, and Saturday/Sunday I get doubletime. If you work the long shifts and get lots of hours, you can easily make 120k+ a year. I typically work the warmer months of the year, and take the winters off to spend time with my family and video games. Don't think you need university to make money/be comfortable in life. But don't let people tell you that you don't need an EDUCATION unless you are one of those few people that get are extremely entrepreneurial and get a little lucky. I wish you the best in your future endeavors. PS: If you do decide to look into the trades, I REALLY suggest you get into a union. They treat you very good, you don't have to look hard to find a job, you get educated, and you learn to do things the right way. Don't let people who don't know what they're talking about brainwash you into thinking unions are bad. edit: I also wanted to point out that when your parents were growing up, going to school/university and getting a desk job meant you and your family would be well off and comfortable. These days that isn't the case. Tradeskills aren't promoted enough in this day and age, they are definitely more viable(I hate to use this word here) than deskjobs these days. That is if you don't mind a little manual labor/working with your hands.
Going to emphasize this. Many people have no idea how well you can make it just as a competent tradesman. Sure, you have to do manual labor sometimes, but why is that so bad?
Or look at me. I'm an electrician, working for a major manufacturing company, in a union. I make $25 an hour, plus overtime if I go over 40 hours a week or work the weekend. Right now I'm at "work", getting paid to sit at the computer doing busy work until something goes wrong that I have to fix. I have my license, and 4 years in a trade school, which was free, and I got paid good money while i was in it.
Oh, and unions. Sometimes good, sometimes not. In my case not. I do pretty specialized work, and yet I make as much as the average joe-blow electrician who wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to do my particular job. Of course they're working in the mud while i sit on my computer and do hardly anything, but that's beside the point.
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Wheres the option for dropout ?
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No, University is not a requirement I remember hearing from some website that runs the salary numbers that there are only like 10-15 degrees that actually end up paying more in the long run than just havinga high school degree. While I don't think University is a requirement and is largely a joke especially in some of the liberal arts degrees. I do think some post-secondary education is required. Whether that be with a trade school or at a University doens't matter but you need something more.
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I was attending University until about 2 weeks ago when I dropped off. Nothing permanent though, the education just wasnt fit for me and im due for a change in the near future.
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I would say it very much depends on the degree you are doing, especially in the UK. If you want to be a doctor / nurse / engineer / etc. then you will need a degree (or equivalent qualification). Experience is not a substitute to knowledge in technical areas.
My best advice would be to do a degree if you think that the careers you would like to head towards would benefit from it. If you have no clue what you want to do, and desperately want to go to university regardless, pick a good quality academic degree, such as engineering, physics or economics. They demonstrate an ability to express difficult ideas on paper, and show you are competent with numbers, which are fairly vital regardless of which career you wish to head into.
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Some high paying jobs that do not require college.
1.Nuclear\ Conventional power plant operator <---what I do (you can get in through the military or testing in)
2.Air traffic controller
3.Real estate agent
4.Surgery Tech
5.Sales person
6.Pipe fitter and other shipyard type jobs
7.Manager (work your way up)
8.Government contractor
While most of these jobs don't require a degree it is beneficial to get one and they often will pay for you to goto college while you work for them.
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I'd say a university degree provides more of a stable life rather than a successful life. (depends on what you mean by success of course)
to be 'extremely successful' you have to be willing to take risks, and having higher education (and consequently the lure of a stable job), significantly reduces the willingness of an individual to take risks.
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I get the feeling that in 10 or 15 years with the lure of outsourcing, the job market will be incredibly competitive, naturally those with degrees will have more of an edge.
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Canada13389 Posts
I need to point out in a seperate reply that in my field (Criminal Justice) You need to get more than just an undergraduate degree to do the better paying jobs in the field. As a result I am taking a Masters and keep this in mind with your program you may or may not take. My girlfriends dad is a rocket scientist (actually and truly he works with things going out to space as an engineer) and does so with an undergrad only and he dropped out of graduate school. This was back in the late 70s/early 80s though so times have changed and people often need more than the degree he has to do his job now without the many many years of experience he has.
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On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky"
I'm not sure what you're getting at. The first quote is just dopey (perhaps not for a Speech class, but who takes that for more than one semester?), the second is based on a false premise, as labor unions had been organizing for many years before the 30's, and the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law.
From my own experience and the experience of my family members, I would strongly advise you to go to school if you really want to pursue Computer Science. While the going might seem good for a while, you will hit a wall soon enough where you won't be able to move up in pay or in your career path without getting more education.
Can you delay getting your education for a while? Absolutely! The reason to do it right after high school rather than later is so that you have less to worry about while doing school. My brother is just now going to college at age 34 to get a degree in Computer Science after working as a programmer for 14 years. Instead of just working a part time job and going to school, he now has three kids and a wife to support while going to school full time and working a full time.
At least give college a try. If you don't like your computer science classes, and you WILL learn if you love it or hate it after your first semester of course work, then you will have learned soon enough to do something else with your life. If you hate the math, then you shouldn't be doing Computer Science, and should switch to a different career path.
Unless you have connections, getting a job right now sucks, and your time would probably be better spent going to school. A university or community college education isn't essential for many careers, but computer science without a degree is a terrible route to go down.
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For certain fields its very necessary. But for something like computer science I would say no, in fact i'd say it would hinder you more in the current climate then anything else. You would be better off working yourself to learn everything you need while working from the bottom up.
If you do go to university you'll simply learn slower, but you'd build contacts/friends. But you would achieve more learning yourself.
Only if you went to a university which you knew was leading in the field and would teach you what you'd end up using in the industry in x years would it ever be worth it.
Currently I know 7+ programming languages and systems I'll never need thanks to pointless forced modules in them at university. Plan what you want to do in the future and look at what the job listings say they want for those listings and learn that yourself and you'd do well with making a portfolio.
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On January 05 2011 23:21 ZeromuS wrote:
I need to point out in a seperate reply that in my field (Criminal Justice) You need to get more than just an undergraduate degree to do the better paying jobs in the field. As a result I am taking a Masters and keep this in mind with your program you may or may not take. My girlfriends dad is a rocket scientist (actually and truly he works with things going out to space as an engineer) and does so with an undergrad only and he dropped out of graduate school. This was back in the late 70s/early 80s though so times have changed and people often need more than the degree he has to do his job now without the many many years of experience he has.
This sort of thing used to be common as it was tough to get university grads into jobs. Some very prominent scientists in the US and Canadian government don't have degrees.
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It's not necessary, but it certainly helps when you need to appear more educated or experienced. Like at most first or second job interviews.
It probably depends on what you're looking to do in the future, and where you're from.
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Its really about networking and proving yourself. A college degree proves to people who don't know you that you're intelligent and can achieve your goals. Also, paying a few extra thousand for a degree from some top-notch university will make your CV a heck of a lot more appealing. Again, with or without degree, its all about networking and proving yourself.
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not necessity at all but without a real good plan youd pretty much be a moron to not do it
opening your own business is pretty fucking hard. trade jobs arent exactly all over the place these days and even if you do land one, you have a very specialized skill set. at the very least, a bachelor's will typically get you at least considered for any random decently paying office gig
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if you are as talented as this guy, then i guess you have the liberty to skip universirty imo.otherwise it's just a big stupid mistake.
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The problem is there are a ton of jobs out there where you don't REALLY need a college education to do them, but the employer lists that as a requirement in order to have a lazy weed-out tool for applicants.
In America, there are tons of kids going to college who frankly have no business being there but were told they "have to go to college to be successful". I worry that universities will lower their standards to avoid poor graduation rates and cheapen the experience for everyone.
I wish high schools in America would have more vocational programs for those kids not in the top 30-40% but who aren't otherwise troublemakers. There's no shame in learning to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber, A/C repair man, carpenter, or any other skilled blue collar profession. Our society wouldn't function without them and many of them can actually make pretty good money. The kids in the bottom 20-30% could be factory workers and the like if we weren't so insistent on driving those types of jobs to other countries through high taxes and artificially increased labor rates...
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In the USA, college is the new high school. A lot of the good trade jobs have been outsourced, and it's hard to move up from the bottom in any career without a college degree. Take retail, for instance. If you have a shred of work ethic it's very easy to become a shift/department manager (or even a store manager, after a reasonable period of time to show a pattern of competence and responsibility), but if you want to move into a district management position or above, you're going to start competing with people who have business degrees or MBAs. If you're happy stocking shelves, changing oil, or running a cash register for the rest of your life don't go to college, but I think that eventually you'll come to a point in your life where you want a degree, and it's much easier now before you have a family to support.
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On January 05 2011 23:15 Kalingingsong wrote:
I'd say a university degree provides more of a stable life rather than a successful life. (depends on what you mean by success of course)
to be 'extremely successful' you have to be willing to take risks, and having higher education (and consequently the lure of a stable job), significantly reduces the willingness of an individual to take risks.
That's not entirely true. Even if you give examples like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg (this is also relevant as OP is studying computer science) since they dropped out of Harvard. But they still -went- to school and it was at school where they saw the opportunities to start a business.
I would say that in today's world, a college education is a must. It can be a safety net if your gamble doesn't work out or it can be a place of inspiration. Even athletes who go on to become pros go to school on a scholarship.
We also have examples in the SC community. Day9 (math) and QXC (computer science) went to Harvey Mudd - a very good school in California and Nony went to Duke - which I'm sure you've heard of.
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On January 05 2011 11:36 teh leet newb wrote:
This is a meaningless question. What's much more important is "what do you want to do with your life"? If the answer is something like doctor, engineer, lawyer, banker, scientist, etc., it's impossible without a college education. Find out what you want to do, and find out what kind of education/experience you need to get there. Don't just consider short term; think about the next 5, 10, and even 20 years of your life. Beyond providing academic education, higher education also allows your discover yourself and realize what you're good at.
As for money, you should consider financial aid and scholarships. You can also have a part-time or even full-time job while going to school
Holy crap, this.
Also, it can be very tough to get your foot in the door to get any experience in a good field without a degree. I'd say in today's world, higher education is a necessity.
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I haven't read all the thread, so if this was already posted, I'm sorry, but an article appeared in a french newspaper in Montreal, stating someone with a degree earns in average 600k$ more than someone without one in a LIFETIME. Now, it depends if you consider that number high or not and answer for yourself.
For those wondering, I can't find the source right now, but it was published like 1-2 weeks ago in La Presse newspaper.
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No, it is not. Nobody needs to go to a university in order to live.
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On January 06 2011 03:14 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 11:36 teh leet newb wrote:
This is a meaningless question. What's much more important is "what do you want to do with your life"? If the answer is something like doctor, engineer, lawyer, banker, scientist, etc., it's impossible without a college education. Find out what you want to do, and find out what kind of education/experience you need to get there. Don't just consider short term; think about the next 5, 10, and even 20 years of your life. Beyond providing academic education, higher education also allows your discover yourself and realize what you're good at.
As for money, you should consider financial aid and scholarships. You can also have a part-time or even full-time job while going to school Holy crap, this. Also, it can be very tough to get your foot in the door to get any experience in a good field without a degree. I'd say in today's world, higher education is a necessity.
This sounds really harsh, but there are a lot of kids out there who only need high school to discover what they're good at. The reason is because they aren't good at very many things.
Just remember that for every one of you with an IQ of 130, there's someone out there with an IQ of 70.
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Some argue that the money/ time spent on a 4 year university could be spent learning a trade and earning profits instead of spending many of our years paying off university debts. I know a friend who skipped college and decided to work with his dad so he could take over. Personally i find having some sort of degree gives you a huge advantage if your life plan doesn't go the way you intended. Going back to the example of my friend what if he had some sort of injury that prevented him from doing that sort of manual labor? with no degree his options are severely limited.
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I've already graduated, there wasn't an option for that.
But as to whether or not you have to attend University to lead a successful life, you have to ask yourself:
1.) Does the job I want REQUIRE a degree? (ie. Doctor, Lawyer, Nurse, Teacher, etc.)
If Yes, Go to college
If No, Go to 2.)
2.) Will I make SIGNIFICANTLY more money in my job by having a degree?
If Yes, Go to college
If No, Don't go to college.
If you want to open your own small internet business, and you already know how to do website development, what's the point in you going to college? You're not going to not hire yourself because you don't have a degree... You're not going to pay yourself less because you don't have a degree... You will actually pay yourself more because you won't have to pay off student loans for the rest of your life.
That's my 2 copper.
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On January 06 2011 03:19 PetitCrabe wrote:
I haven't read all the thread, so if this was already posted, I'm sorry, but an article appeared in a french newspaper in Montreal, stating someone with a degree earns in average 600k$ more than someone without one in a LIFETIME. Now, it depends if you consider that number high or not and answer for yourself.
I'm not advocating the view I put forward now but...
You could do an NPV calculation for this.
- By studying you earn nothing in years 1-3
- By studying you incur debts that attract interest
- By studying your starting salary is higher and when you start work in year 4
- By studying your base salary will be higher than a person who didn't study over his whole careeer
- By not studying you earn money in years 1-3
- By not studying your savings attract interest
- By not studying you will have a lower base salary
So you would have a table that looks something like this:
![[image loading]](http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1101/study.jpg.jpg)
**Take the figures with a pinch of salt, I don't have a clue what Americans earn or pay to study!
So fiscally speaking it takes a few years to catch up since by studying you are digging yourself into a financial hole.
Of course the world isn't a financial calulation! Todays society puts pressure on you to get higher education.. Universities open up doors to jobs that could be considered more rewarding on a personal fulfillment level. At university you get to party for 3 years. And so on.
In short, going to uni depends on your amibitions and aspirations. If you ask society the consensus will be "yes". Only you can decide what the right answer is given your circumstances. (Don't forget Bill Gates is a famous uni dropout!)
BTW I have a professional qualification. I didn't go to a full time uni but got it part time. That solution was right for me.
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16986 Posts
On January 05 2011 17:49 LeSioN wrote:
if your goal is simply to make the most money possible the easyiest way possible at something you sorta enjoy,finding the CHEAPEST edjucation is the best bet. be it certifications, an associates or what have you. contrary to what most people believe the name of the school has no bearing whatsoever on your future income i recently read about a study in which the average ivy league graduate earns no more (on average) than a community college graduate for comparable degrees. while the ivy leaguer is now in debt around $60,000-$100,000 compared to the 10,000-25,000 of the community college grad. this is a HUGE difference in money especially when the average IT position is around 60k a year.
I highly doubt this.
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On January 06 2011 04:23 Deja Thoris wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 03:19 PetitCrabe wrote:
I haven't read all the thread, so if this was already posted, I'm sorry, but an article appeared in a french newspaper in Montreal, stating someone with a degree earns in average 600k$ more than someone without one in a LIFETIME. Now, it depends if you consider that number high or not and answer for yourself.
I'm not advocating the view I put forward now but... You could do an NPV calculation for this. - By studying you earn nothing in years 1-3 - By studying you incur debts that attract interest - By studying your starting salary is higher and when you start work in year 4 - By studying your base salary will be higher than a person who didn't study over his whole careeer - By not studying you earn money in years 1-3 - By not studying your savings attract interest - By not studying you will have a lower base salary So you would have a table that looks something like this: **Take the figures with a pinch of salt, I don't have a clue what Americans earn or pay to study!
The problem with this is when you make that little, there's no way you're saving that much unless you're living at home, and even if you are there's still little chance that you're saving that much.
Also, the long term benefits of a college education (higher pay, job security, so many contacts that you make) vastly outweigh the 3 years you spent working for minimum wage in most situations.
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Greater earning by university graduates may be due to differences in the type of person who goes to university, not the degree itself.
There is a great debate going on over exactly what the value of Uni is - are the skills learned actually valuable, or is it just a signaling system to show you are able to work at a desk diligently?
Most degrees are fluff. Only a few, like engineering and medicine, are really valuable. Arts, social science, various political fields are all useless. Don't bother unless you live in luxury.
I am a game designer. You don't need a degree to do this. You can become a tester and move up from there.
Of course game design is kind of unique as a field since it's so new.
But in general, experience trumps education. Everyone in the software field knows that newly hired grads don't really know anything and have to be taught. If the do know something it's because of projects they did on their own time, not school.
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I think it depends on the field you are planning to go. I mean some fields, you'll need it because everyone else does, and some wont. But really, how can it hurt?
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16986 Posts
On January 06 2011 06:15 WhoaDrugs wrote:
I think it depends on the field you are planning to go. I mean some fields, you'll need it because everyone else does, and some wont. But really, how can it hurt?
You could have wasted four years of your life getting an art history degree when you could've been working, and then graduate with an unemployable degree while being mired in student loan debt.
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Hyrule19052 Posts
I'm a web designer. If I had a degree, I'd be making 3 times more than I make now (and I already make a decent amount). That having been said, without a degree I can support myself just fine, but I'd struggle to support a family.
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On January 06 2011 06:17 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 06:15 WhoaDrugs wrote:
I think it depends on the field you are planning to go. I mean some fields, you'll need it because everyone else does, and some wont. But really, how can it hurt? You could have wasted four years of your life getting an art history degree when you could've been working, and then graduate with an unemployable degree while being mired in student loan debt.
So, college is a gamble? =o
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16986 Posts
On January 06 2011 06:20 WhoaDrugs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 06:17 Empyrean wrote:On January 06 2011 06:15 WhoaDrugs wrote:
I think it depends on the field you are planning to go. I mean some fields, you'll need it because everyone else does, and some wont. But really, how can it hurt? You could have wasted four years of your life getting an art history degree when you could've been working, and then graduate with an unemployable degree while being mired in student loan debt. So, college is a gamble? =o
Not if you choose an employable degree.
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On January 06 2011 06:24 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 06:20 WhoaDrugs wrote:On January 06 2011 06:17 Empyrean wrote:On January 06 2011 06:15 WhoaDrugs wrote:
I think it depends on the field you are planning to go. I mean some fields, you'll need it because everyone else does, and some wont. But really, how can it hurt? You could have wasted four years of your life getting an art history degree when you could've been working, and then graduate with an unemployable degree while being mired in student loan debt. So, college is a gamble? =o Not if you choose an employable degree.
Guys, OP is studying comp sci - where I think the decision is pretty cut and dry.
So, to the OP -
If you want to be a premier software engineer at a big firm, you'll need the theory taught in a rigorous 4 year program. Even if you want to start your own firm, you'll find possible business partners and possible investors during your years in school.
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I have a commendable undergraduate double major, I am currently in a top tier law school (USA), I will likely be 250k in debt with very little chance to actually even FIND A JOB and practically no chance to pay it back. Note, there are over 200 (not including correspondance/online) law schools in america, and I am in a law school in the top 10% of all of those, at the top of my class, with great accolades, and I will not be able to find a job.
What the fuck do those people from the other 90% of schools do?
LONG STORY SHORT, DONT GO TO LAWSCHOOL IN AMERICA UNLESS ITS YALE/HARVARD/STANFORD (i wouldnt even go to columbia [#4])
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Where is the option "I already have a degree" ?????
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Books could be written about this OP.
I graduated in May from San Francisco State University. I was one of the lucky graduates who got a job in my field of study (electronic media) right out of college. A college degree is a requirement for most entry-level positions in offices. The reality is that when upper management positions at corporations are posted online in my industry, 200-300 qualified applicants (with college degrees and tons of experience) apply for every single one. The saturation is even higher for entry-level positions. Without a college degree you don't stand a chance. Even with a college degree, your chances are very slim unless you've accrued internship experience, freelance/industry experience, and graduated with honors or with some kind of recognition.
There is hope, but it starts with a college degree. Use college as an opportunity to learn your craft (at least the fundamentals), gain real world experience via internships and freelance projects, and make valuable contacts that you will be able to work with in the future.
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Also, the school you graduate from rarely matters unless the person conducting the interview graduated from there as well. Since everyone who you will be competing with will have a college degree, all that matters is that you graduated from an accredited university. More important is your work/internship experience. Have fun in college, but work hard!
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On January 06 2011 06:33 eth3n wrote:
I have a commendable undergraduate double major, I am currently in a top tier law school (USA), I will likely be 250k in debt with very little chance to actually even FIND A JOB and practically no chance to pay it back. Note, there are over 200 (not including correspondance/online) law schools in america, and I am in a law school in the top 10% of all of those, at the top of my class, with great accolades, and I will not be able to find a job.
What the fuck do those people from the other 90% of schools do?
LONG STORY SHORT, DONT GO TO LAWSCHOOL IN AMERICA UNLESS ITS YALE/HARVARD/STANFORD (i wouldnt even go to columbia [#4])
Network more. Most doors in my life have opened through who I knew, not what I knew. Of course you need the right credentials but when the employer knows you from golf or being in the same club or whatever, it certainly distinguishes you from generic wonderboy candiate #37.
(Although having said that you need to get your foot in at least one door to start the process :/ )
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there was a season of 'The Apprentice' where they had college graduates v non-graduates, and it was basically even all the way through, with the 2 finalists being one from each side.
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On January 06 2011 07:49 justle wrote:
Also, the school you graduate from rarely matters unless the person conducting the interview graduated from there as well. Since everyone who you will be competing with will have a college degree, all that matters is that you graduated from an accredited university. More important is your work/internship experience. Have fun in college, but work hard!
Also, not true at all. Lots of top tier companies only have a pool of 10-20 universities that they recruit from. Going to a school not on that list just makes your chances so much slimmer. Not saying it's not possible, it's just a lot harder.
On January 06 2011 08:46 EcstatiC wrote:
there was a season of 'The Apprentice' where they had college graduates v non-graduates, and it was basically even all the way through, with the 2 finalists being one from each side.
The non-graduate contestants on the show represented some of the brightest, most hard-working, and lucky people from the "non-graduate pool". Most people will never end up like them.
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On January 06 2011 07:49 justle wrote:
Also, the school you graduate from rarely matters unless the person conducting the interview graduated from there as well. Since everyone who you will be competing with will have a college degree, all that matters is that you graduated from an accredited university. More important is your work/internship experience. Have fun in college, but work hard!
This is more true in some fields and rather false in others. Take law, for instance, as posted just above. Law is stupidly competitive because there are far more law school seats than profitable lawyer positions. The top 10% of lawyers make bank while the bottom 90% fight for table scraps.
If you go to (and do well at) a top law university, you have a much, MUCH better chance of networking with successful lawyers who can get you an internship at a successful law firm in your chosen field (and thereby increase your chances of being in that top 10%).
If you go to Podunk law school in rural Mississippi, you're going to have to claw your way up from the bottom on your own unless you already have a network via your family or something.
That said, this is mostly true for graduate degrees (like law and others) where your undergrad experience basically exists to get you into a good graduate school. Going to a top undergrad *can* make you more competitive, but if you get a 4.0 at a small underfunded state school and do very well your GRE/MCAT/LSAT/etc you are still easily competitive for top 5 graduate programs.
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As several people already said, getting higher educaiton is probably going to make things easier, as long as you go into a field where jobs exist.
You've got to realize that higher education is not only about the courses, it's also about the people you'll meet, the support you'll receive from alumni, the help your university will provide you when it comes down to finding an internship or a first job.
Well, at least, that's how it is in the best schools in my country, but I think that there wil be similarities to a certain extent.
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No it isn't.
Don't be fooled and think that people who don't go to university are all dumb and unhappy. There are many high paying and satisfactory jobs out there that require no educational achievements whatsoever.
For example, I have always thought you need to go to university or college to find a good job and be "successful" because that is basically what high school teaches you. I went to college last year, and it sucked. I hated it, because I didn't choose a field I was actually interested in. I chose something I thought would look good on a resume and pay well.
That all changed this summer when I got a job at a bee farm. I thought I was going to hate it, hard labor all for nothing but money - a dead end job. Boy was I wrong. It was the most fun/satisfactory job I've ever had. We got tons of exercise I haven't had in ages. We never took work home with us, when it was done it was done. Worked extremely flexible hours - if I was going to be drinking the night before work I would just tell my boss and we would start an hour later. It was amazing.
And the best part of it was how relatively easy it was for the insane amount of money it produced. Over the course of the summer we worked about 6 hours almost every day for about 3 months. It's alot easier than it sounds. And for just that little bit of work, my boss would bring in over $100,000. $100,000 for three months of work. That is the kind of shit you dream about when you go to university. And then he has the entire winter, 8+ months, to do whatever the hell he wants.
And there are tons of jobs like this. We would take the wax from the extracted and broken bee frames and sell it to a guy who melted it down and sent it to the states. You know how much he brought in each year? Close to a million dollars my boss told me. Just for melting down wax, because there just wasn't anyone else around that did it. And I guarantee you he didn't go to school for that job.
You just gotta find something you like that not many people are doing yet. Whether its through university or not, I'm sure there's tons of stuff out there that you would like.
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16986 Posts
While that story may be valid, it's still much easier to find a job that pays 100k+ a year after having gone through college than with only a high school education. So of course, college is never a "necessity," but it does help make life easier for many people who choose to pursue it.
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Depends on what you want to be doing, there are simple university studies and not. The experience of being in college alone is enough for me to be wanting to study for ~8-10 years. Anyway being 'successful' is all about maximizing your potential and getting the best chances of getting a great job, which usually means studying at a university. It's depends on what you call successful but in most cases (99%) it definately helps you.
Ofcourse in holland you can do fuck all all your life and still reach a point where money never is an issue unless you want to make a shitload of money, in america things are different obviously.
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It's better to get a job you like and work your way up.
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Think about how much time you dedicate to extracurriculars and just wasting time. At least 25 hours/week I'd say. Cut in on some sleep and you're set. If I-Bankers can work 80-100 hours a week, you can probably push yourself through a full-time job and school if you try hard enough.
This guy just described the history of my life, I'm going to tell you why this is completely wrong, okay here I go:
When I was 18 years old I had a job as an assistant computer technician, I was making good money for my age but also I had enough free time to hang out with my friends, practice judo/jiu jitsu and play a lot of wc3, at some point I even became pretty good at that game.
I consider myself a smart person, I knew that if I kept putting dedication to my job I could become really good at it, save some money and end up running my own business in around 3 years, that could have been a good path in life.
But my family and especially society sells an idea of "succesful man", as an old fat dude in a suit saying he's important.
I wanted big things back then, so I decided to go to university to become a lawyer, but because it was really expensive I had to work in a full time job all those years. I became a good friend of one of my professors, he knew about my dedication, so he helped me get a full time job in a big lawfirm before graduating. It was like a dream. In reality it was exhausting, working there sucked any life I still had left, my day would be wake up 6:30 am or earlier to be at work at 7:30 am, get out of work at 6 pm, then go to university until 10 or 11 pm, and repeat. Weekends were just sleeping too much and too much internet.
Here I am now, I'm 25 years old, I graduated as a lawyer finally in august 2010, the lawfirm offered me a job as a fulltime lawyer there since I've worked for them for already 2 years. Finally I could have my big fucking audi in no time, think about it, it's a fucking audi!!
I decided to quit the lawfirm after a few months of taking people's houses for not paying their mortgages, if they had kids or not, if they were sick or not, if they were crying or not it was my duty to take their houses because the banks CEO's need more money.
I look back at my years in the university and all I see is I never had a real girlfriend, never went to parties worth remenbering, my vacations was staying home because university is too expensive rather than traveling through europe or argentina or whatever.
If you ask anyone which years of their life were the best ones, we can be sure everyone would agree about being 18-25, but I completely wasted it, if I could go back in time would I do it completely different? I'm pretty fucking sure.
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yes, i will in the future, but im not in high school, so i didnt answer
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C's will get you a degree, but A's will get you pay.
It all depend son what you major in, as someone said before: If you go for an arts degree or something your not gonna get very far. It's always good to go for an business degree, or engineering tech degree. If your really smart you can make it as a Doctor or Engineer
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On January 06 2011 11:02 Nevermind86 wrote:Show nested quote +Think about how much time you dedicate to extracurriculars and just wasting time. At least 25 hours/week I'd say. Cut in on some sleep and you're set. If I-Bankers can work 80-100 hours a week, you can probably push yourself through a full-time job and school if you try hard enough. This guy just described the history of my life, I'm going to tell you why this is completely wrong, okay here I go: When I was 18 years old I had a job as an assistant computer technician, I was making good money for my age but also I had enough free time to hang out with my friends, practice judo/jiu jitsu and play a lot of wc3, at some point I even became pretty good at that game. I consider myself a smart person, I knew that if I kept putting dedication to my job I could become really good at it, save some money and end up running my own business in around 3 years, that could have been a good path in life. But my family and especially society sells an idea of "succesful man", as an old fat dude in a suit saying he's important. I wanted big things back then, so I decided to go to university to become a lawyer, but because it was really expensive I had to work in a full time job all those years. I became a good friend of one of my professors, he knew about my dedication, so he helped me get a full time job in a big lawfirm before graduating. It was like a dream. In reality it was exhausting, working there sucked any life I still had left, my day would be wake up 6:30 am or earlier to be at work at 7:30 am, get out of work at 6 pm, then go to university until 10 or 11 pm, and repeat. Weekends were just sleeping too much and too much internet. Here I am now, I'm 25 years old, I graduated as a lawyer finally in august 2010, the lawfirm offered me a job as a fulltime lawyer there since I've worked for them for already 2 years. Finally I could have my big fucking audi in no time, think about it, it's a fucking audi!! I decided to quit the lawfirm after a few months of taking people's houses for not paying their mortgages, if they had kids or not, if they were sick or not, if they were crying or not it was my duty to take their houses because the banks CEO's need more money. I look back at my years in the university and all I see is I never had a real girlfriend, never went to parties worth remenbering, my vacations was staying home because university is too expensive rather than traveling through europe or argentina or whatever. If you ask anyone which years of their life were the best ones, we can be sure everyone would agree about being 18-25, but I completely wasted it, if I could go back in time would I do it completely different? I'm pretty fucking sure.
I think your unhappiness stems from you choosing a career path that was something you didn't want to do. You must have known about it well before you started your job. Think about if you chose a profession that you actually enjoyed. Even if you had to work your ass off to pay for your education, you'd probably be glad you did. Also, didn't your university have financial aid? School is expensive, but most have generous financial aid for people who can't afford it.
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On January 06 2011 11:02 Nevermind86 wrote:Show nested quote +Think about how much time you dedicate to extracurriculars and just wasting time. At least 25 hours/week I'd say. Cut in on some sleep and you're set. If I-Bankers can work 80-100 hours a week, you can probably push yourself through a full-time job and school if you try hard enough. This guy just described the history of my life, I'm going to tell you why this is completely wrong, okay here I go: When I was 18 years old I had a job as an assistant computer technician, I was making good money for my age but also I had enough free time to hang out with my friends, practice judo/jiu jitsu and play a lot of wc3, at some point I even became pretty good at that game. I consider myself a smart person, I knew that if I kept putting dedication to my job I could become really good at it, save some money and end up running my own business in around 3 years, that could have been a good path in life. But my family and especially society sells an idea of "succesful man", as an old fat dude in a suit saying he's important. I wanted big things back then, so I decided to go to university to become a lawyer, but because it was really expensive I had to work in a full time job all those years. I became a good friend of one of my professors, he knew about my dedication, so he helped me get a full time job in a big lawfirm before graduating. It was like a dream. In reality it was exhausting, working there sucked any life I still had left, my day would be wake up 6:30 am or earlier to be at work at 7:30 am, get out of work at 6 pm, then go to university until 10 or 11 pm, and repeat. Weekends were just sleeping too much and too much internet. Here I am now, I'm 25 years old, I graduated as a lawyer finally in august 2010, the lawfirm offered me a job as a fulltime lawyer there since I've worked for them for already 2 years. Finally I could have my big fucking audi in no time, think about it, it's a fucking audi!! I decided to quit the lawfirm after a few months of taking people's houses for not paying their mortgages, if they had kids or not, if they were sick or not, if they were crying or not it was my duty to take their houses because the banks CEO's need more money. I look back at my years in the university and all I see is I never had a real girlfriend, never went to parties worth remenbering, my vacations was staying home because university is too expensive rather than traveling through europe or argentina or whatever. If you ask anyone which years of their life were the best ones, we can be sure everyone would agree about being 18-25, but I completely wasted it, if I could go back in time would I do it completely different? I'm pretty fucking sure.
What are you going to do next?
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Gonna writte an epic book and somehow manage to be the next Jim Morrison, I saved some money so I don't have to work for a few months, I've read a lot of good books, went back to full time jiu jitsu training, I'm learning french, hanging around a lot with my old friends and going to the beach any day I want and making plans to visit argentina later this year. I'm going to start a small food business with my younger brother, if I told my former boss I go to the beach on mondays, he would probably kill me out of frustration, poor dude works more than 12 hours a day, seeing his life is what made me change
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I saw that is a necessity in this world right now.. especially with the way the economy is, and if you want a good professional job, you're gonna have to school for a worthwhile major.
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Personally I think going to University opened up a lot of options for me in the future.
I'm enrolled in a co-op program which makes me graduate later but I get plenty of applicable work experience while I study. I study for 4 months and then work for 4 months and repeat until I've worked for 6 semesters in total and studied for 8 semesters.
Sometimes I do lose my rhythm because I switch sceneries all the time but overall I think its worth it because once I graduate I'll have the work experience edge over typical new graduates. Plus I'm not as in much school debt as I get paid in co-op. I'm not very well off so after school loans I have just enough for tuition and rent and a little bit of spending money. Granted, we all have to earn our co-op jobs ourselves by going through a grueling interview process during semesters of study - so I'm already competing against my peers.
And its this competition that kind of pushes me to strive for higher (Getting better grades, being more involved in extra-curriculars) to have a better resume to compete for jobs. I'm studying Math/Business and to be honest, I still don't know what I want to do with my life because my program is so broad. The work experiences I've gathered really give me a good glimpse of the working / business world nonetheless and I'm starting to have a better idea now.
University is also a good place to develop your personal network for the future. I've made a lot of friends here in university, and its been really fun working with them in team environments in extra-curriculars. In addition, leaving home for the first time allowed me to learn to take care of myself without mommy and daddy.
Certainly there are infinite paths to reaching where you want to go, but I think the one that I'm on now probably saved me a lot of pain and suffering had I not chosen to go to University. I agree that University isn't for everyone but regardless of what you do, if you try your best I don't see why you won't succeed wherever you go. Just make good use of the limited time that you have.
I think I'll really miss University when I finally graduate.
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You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Go to college, there will be more doors open for you when you graduate than if you choose not to go.
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I am currently enrolled in a university but I do not think that a university degree is a necessity. I do think that a university degree does give you a lot of options in regards to what you can do to lead a comfortable life though.
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A lot of wealthy people I know claim university is a waste. I agree that University is overrated but unless you are either extremely sociable and likable and know almost everyone with money or get really lucky you are not going to land a job that pays a really good salary. University helps you put your foot in the door and make the contacts you will need for future life to get a decent job.
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On January 05 2011 23:37 Adeeler wrote:
For certain fields its very necessary. But for something like computer science I would say no, in fact i'd say it would hinder you more in the current climate then anything else. You would be better off working yourself to learn everything you need while working from the bottom up.
If you do go to university you'll simply learn slower, but you'd build contacts/friends. But you would achieve more learning yourself.
Only if you went to a university which you knew was leading in the field and would teach you what you'd end up using in the industry in x years would it ever be worth it.
Currently I know 7+ programming languages and systems I'll never need thanks to pointless forced modules in them at university. Plan what you want to do in the future and look at what the job listings say they want for those listings and learn that yourself and you'd do well with making a portfolio.
I have a hard time believing this. In fact, I would have ventured to say the opposite: that most degrees are basically worthless, save those that have to do with engineering/science. (and medicine/law of course). Sure, you can learn all that stuff on your own, but you can do that with anything. All you have to do is buy a few books on it. But I don't think that is going to work when you go in for job interviews.
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On January 06 2011 13:10 Lowkin wrote:
A lot of wealthy people I know claim university is a waste. I agree that University is overrated but unless you are either extremely sociable and likable and know almost everyone with money or get really lucky you are not going to land a job that pays a really good salary. University helps you put your foot in the door and make the contacts you will need for future life to get a decent job.
I also think that university helps make you a well rounded person. It's easy to get loans if not scholarships for, and generally isn't THAT expensive. Enjoy your youth while you have it, take interesting classes, make friends, find some romance. Most people polled say their best years were in college. There isn't any doubt in my mind that for the vast majority of people college also improves their career prospects, but even if not... do it for the experience.
People who start working right out of high school seriously miss out.
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On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law.
Translation
Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please."
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It depends on the field you want to enter. There is nobody who can argue with me that overall, those who go straight into the workforce earn a higher mean salary over those who go to university or college for a Bachelors, or even possibly a Masters.
I believe the statistics say that those who go to a 4-year university on average earn about $1,000,000 more over their lifetime than those who go straight into the workforce.
In actuality, you learn more by just working, and having real-world experience (I am a Finance major and let me tell you, they teach you nothing of real relativity past Sophomore year in college that will pertain to your career; everything you learn is from internships and real-world experience). It is that paper degree that we go to universities for, and that is the norm in the world.
So, to conclude, go to university, and become more educated. America ranks 27th/29th on the list of the most developed nations in terms of education standards. We are stupid as hell.
Gogo study!
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On January 06 2011 13:26 forkleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law. Translation Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please."
Reality eventually educates idealists who actually expose themselves to it.
Don't believe everything you read, man.
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You dont need a degree to be successful in life. My friends dad has millions and he was just a poor italian immigrant who oponed up a resturaunt and made bank on it. Degree certainly helps, but i wouldnt call it neccacarry
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On January 06 2011 13:33 NotGood- wrote:
You dont need a degree to be successful in life. My friends dad has millions and he was just a poor italian immigrant who oponed up a resturaunt and made bank on it. Degree certainly helps, but i wouldnt call it neccacarry
You make it sound like just anybody can open up a restaurant and make a huge profit on it. In reality, that's not the case. Your friend's dad just got really lucky. You cannot count on something like that, which is why you go to a university. It gives you stability and something you can rely on.
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If you have the opportunity to go to school and become educated, do so. What you get out of college is dependant on what you put into it, and make sure to engage your professors instead of relying on the lectures only.
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In my opinion, you learn how to think in university if you take a decent degree. I'm sure that a lot of the people who say that they wasted their time don't realize how much they take for granted. Hell, I know that my previous courses seem like a piece of cake (even if they seemed hard back then) now that my thinking has matured a bit. It also takes a while to emotionally mature (for most people) and it's better to do it in a looser environment than at the workplace.
University is what you make of it. Be smart, make friends and have fun, get top marks in a well-respected major, look for good summer jobs, and network in your 3rd and 4th years for employment. Don't underestimate the value of having peers around to talk to when things go shitty. I think that not going to university is a very high variance decision with a lower expected value than going to university. That is not to say that you can't do well without a degree, but don't be surprised if you drop out and then completely bomb.
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On January 06 2011 13:26 forkleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law. Translation Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please."
Still waiting for a leader of a Western country to be elected who looks like this.
![[image loading]](http://postcardjunky.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/homeless-man-goes-online1.jpg)
Until then, have fun trying to get a job that pays anything above minimum wage because you refuse to practice good hygiene and shave in order to prove you're so hip.
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On January 06 2011 13:56 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 13:26 forkleaf wrote:On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law. Translation Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please." Still waiting for a leader of a Western country to be elected who looks like this. Until then, have fun trying to get a job that pays anything above minimum wage because you refuse to practice good hygiene and shave in order to prove you're so hip.
Its interesting that of ALL possible images to nonchalantly use you pick the homeless guy.
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I logged in first time in ages just to post something in here.I don`t really understand why are you all so hyped about getting a job? And almost no one wants workers?:o
I mean it`s horryfing for me ( was , i worked for 3 months normal job - and it was easy as fuck at that- wouldn`t never do it again just because i hate waking up/doing what someone tells me to do). Why not just try starting anything on your own ? I really don`t belive you can`t get any money to start if you wanna go to collage ( and trust me , you don`t need a fuckton if you actually can put in some work/have some decent ideas) and not do anything else and I know from mine and other close people experience that if you started anything remotely succesful , in the long run (and even not that long, depending on what and how you do it obv.) it`s gonna crush uni financially and freedom-wise. Where am i wrong? I know that`s my way and I plan on not doing anything anymore in say 10-15 yrs ( I`m 24 now). I mean - what`s better and what else gives me even a possibility like this?
And to the above poster (Xanbatou): Yes , it does work like this. Most people just need to be told what they need to do, that`s it. But every single person I know who had a bit of brain and really did want achieve something - did it (with some twists or not, but eventually) . Also , I know that there are people who just got it and they can make money out of thin air if you give them time and some resources ( I know at least 2 people like this,they basically have millions of good , working ideas and drive to make them reality)
And I`m from country so fucked up I just don`t belive it`s worse in states when it comes to starting business ( Poland ,we need 30 days to register anything , come on) but gotta give the other side of the story that the society likes under the table deals so that helps
Also, afaik a typical food stand in a decent location makes more than someone starting with a standard college degree ( I can bet money on this one, at least 100% its like this here, and am sure in europe it`s even better, considering their wages/ food prices) .I mean , what`s the deal with you guys wanting to work and listen to some idiot (who btw probably makes less than the guy selling kebabs across the street in his OWN stand, lol + the kebab guy can open up a chain eventually and not give a shit ,what can you get- a promotion - give me a break). Please someone explain as it`s more and more common i see ( not that i`d complain , water on my mill :D)
edit : typos and last paragraph
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On January 06 2011 14:03 forkleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 13:56 Hikko wrote:On January 06 2011 13:26 forkleaf wrote:On January 05 2011 23:37 Hikko wrote:On January 05 2011 20:09 forkleaf wrote:
Explaining why everyone here gave you the answers they gave.
"...a large part of education at the really elite institutions is simply refinement, teaching the social graces: what kind of clothes you should wear, how to drink port the right way, how to have polite conversation without talking about serious topics, but of course indicating that you could talk about serious topics if you were so vulgar as to actually do it..."
"...the 1930s were a period of major labor strife and labor struggles in the U.S., and it was scaring the daylights out of the whole business community here--because labor was finally winning the right to organize... Harvard introduced a "Trade Union Program." What it did was to bring in rising young people in the labor movement--you know, the guy who looks like he's going to be the Local president next year--and have them stay in dorms in the Business School, and put them through the a while socialization process, help them come to share some of the values and understandings of the elite... meanwhile business is fighting a vicious class war on the side. And that effort to socialize and integrate union activists--well, I've never measured its success, but I'm sure it was very successful."
"...a black civil rights activist who came to study at Harvard Law School... gave a talk in which he described how kids starting off at Harvard Law School come in with long hair and backpacks and social ideals, they're all going to go into public service law to change the world and so on--that's the first year. Around springtime, the recruiters come for the cushy summer jobs in the Wall Street Law firms, and these students figure, "What the heck, I can put on a tie and a jacket and shave for one day, just because I need that money and why shouldn't I have it?" So they put on the tie and the jacket for that one day, and they get the job, and then they go off for the summer--and when they come back in the fall, it's ties, and jackets, and obedience, a shift of ideology"
Book: "Understanding power: the indispensable Chomsky" the third shows that the students got a reality check that they can't have a full beard, look like a hippie, and use lots of drugs if they wanted to have a real job in the field of law. Translation Hikko: "You need to learn to socialize properly and serve the masters of the universe letting the rich and powerful do as they please." Still waiting for a leader of a Western country to be elected who looks like this. Until then, have fun trying to get a job that pays anything above minimum wage because you refuse to practice good hygiene and shave in order to prove you're so hip. Its interesting that of ALL possible images to nonchalantly use you pick the homeless guy.
![[image loading]](http://insurgencyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hipster-beard-pbr.jpg)
Is this better? His point still stands.
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On January 06 2011 14:06 zebaty wrote:
I logged in first time in ages just to post something in here.I don`t really understand why are you all so hyped about getting a job? And almost no one wants workers?:o
This summer I had an internship doing grunt-level programming and office work for a private Department of Defense contractor. Everything had been all set to go for over 6 months prior to when I was supposed to start, but the week before the interns were supposed to begin, we were all laid off due to budget constrictions...and we were making about minimum wage. Some other people at the company were laid off at the same time as well.
I spent my entire summer looking for a job. I'm smart, and I have great grades and contacts, and I am often told that I am a very hard worker. Aside from odd jobs that I would get around town (it wasn't really enough to get by), I found no employment at all for about 3 months. I applied everywhere--every restaurant, every chain store, all the grocery stores--but nobody was hiring, and they were all trying to cut salaries or lose some employees.
Thankfully, I finally landed a web design contract with the first job around 6 weeks of work. I finished the website past all of the specifications of my employer, but the man tried to get my content without paying me a cent by "having me work on something else and letting him finish the work" when it was already done (the way I worded it doesn't sound nearly as fishy and sketchy as it was), despite our contract. I was so desperate for work that I only took a small portion as a down payment, and ended up being out about $1100 and around 180 hours of my time.
+ Show Spoiler +Could I have sued him? Absolutely, but it wasn't worth the court fees or the time away from school, and I was just so sick of the situation that I just wanted to wash my hands of it. He never got his website; I deleted that crap a month after he told me he wasn't paying for it any more.
Perhaps it's just bad luck and a bad situation, but this past summer scared the crap out of me and gave me every reason to go back to school. I have the personal education on programming and web design, as well as certifications, and I know what I am doing as a web designer/programmer. Still, you need the schooling for calculus and physics at the very least, especially if you plan on going into any complex business, systems, or game programming.
Call me stupid, but I think that I never want to be an entrepreneur. If you have it in you, go for it! But even if you do, school for computer science (if that is what you want to do--make SURE this is what you want to do with the rest of your life) will only benefit you.
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I feel you , but i don`t see how you having a diploma prevents you from being fucked over ? People are son of bitches and that`s how I approach them unless proven otherwise , sad but true story. But then again , everyone knows this where I live ,especially when it comes to money
And there are hazards everywhere ,for me it`s about risk:reward ratio , isn`t that right?
Also , I agree that there are some certain trades that require degree to even start but they are not for vast majority of people and as you said , they should be certain they want to do this. But let`s face it : most of "students" have majors that don`t lead to anything and everything they`ll be doing could be done without it , in most cases with no problems I belive
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I do not think that going to College is a necessity to have a successful life. For one thing, we have to define what it means to even have a successful life. The answer most likely varies from person to person. So I think, at least for myself, to say that it is a necessity, is sort of assuming that going to college is necessary for everyones view on what it means to have a successful life. Which is a tad bit difficult for myself to accept, so in that case, the answer is no.
Now, is a college degree necessary for certain things? Well yes, some jobs require BA's, Masters, Ph.D, you name it. And if that is the dream job for you, and you consider what ever that job does as being that thing that allows for one to have a successful life, then you may argue that College is a necessity.
In general, it is quite a loaded question, so a lot of questions must be answered. This is no objective answer I believe, if anything, it is subjective.
Although I do not think education is necessary, I still love it and recommend it for anyone. I love education, I love the idea of learning. I went to College for business, then changed to an AA (because I grew tired of business), which enabled me to move toward my love of philosophy. So my BA was centered around Philosophy. I love thinking, rationalizing, and learning new things. I also have a love for Chemistry, which is why I am trying to teach myself as much as I can. I think in my instance, College was a necessity for my desire to learn. In the internet, there is simply too much information that it makes learning difficult. You become overloaded and it becomes difficult to take in information. A college allows for one to focus in areas and not become overburdened.
Anyway, I can go on. But I will leave you all with this. Sir Ken Robinson
I really like this video, and you may not agree with him, but it is still interesting nonetheless.
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This is the part I don`t really understand. How can someone have a dream to work for someone and not wait for workers to bring the money to them eventually ?
Also , I don`t know how the students are in america but I know that I`d never hire average european graduate to sell in my grocery store or do whatever for that matter - they wouldn`t handle it as all they think about is how not to get anything done , get the money and go get fucked then laid
And again , I`m talking about average . I do understand that there are people who really want to get the knowledge and so on . But :
a) they are slowed down by the average in current state of things
b) they are certainly less than 5%
And another thing. I really do belive that succesful means that one does what he pleases and can do so. In that case it`s needed to get the means by whatever means possible ( if that makes sense) and then go on to being succesful - in a way one sees fit .That`s how i see it. I just can`t think of someone who is truly happy ( which is needed for overall "successfullness" for sure) and still HAS to do something just because someone else told them to. Maybe it`s just me but i can`t imagine such a scenario
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On January 06 2011 14:57 zebaty wrote:I feel you , but i don`t see how you having a diploma prevents you from being fucked over ? People are son of bitches and that`s how I approach them unless proven otherwise , sad but true story. But then again , everyone knows this where I live ,especially when it comes to money And there are hazards everywhere ,for me it`s about risk:reward ratio , isn`t that right? Also , I agree that there are some certain trades that require degree to even start but they are not for vast majority of people and as you said , they should be certain they want to do this. But let`s face it : most of "students" have majors that don`t lead to anything and everything they`ll be doing could be done without it , in most cases with no problems I belive
It's not directly related, but I just feel like I'd be more comfortable working for an already organized company instead of doing my own contracting as a web designer or doing run-my-own-business programming. After going to work with my brother-in-law a few years ago at a Cisco campus for a week, I rather like offices and large corporations.
Going to college gets you the better jobs in those atmospheres, and allows you to continue to progress without hitting a wall where you can't make more without more education.
The original poster wants to pursue a career in computer science. Say by the time you're 30, and you've had about 8 years of job experience as well as college work. Compare that to someone of the same age who has been working the same field of programming for 11 years, because he didn't attend college at all. If you don't have the experience in the calculus and the physics and the other math from attending school, you're a less desirable candidate.
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I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
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its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
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On January 06 2011 15:44 QuadrupleMarklar wrote:
I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
I'm not gonna say you're crazy, but using words like system (and capitalizing it no less) is sort of alarming and reminds me of the hippies of the 70s. Also, what on earth do you mean "it's a burden that no one should have"? You don't have to have a family if you don't want to.
And while Google can give you a good deal of information, it won't put you on par with someone who took advantage of an institution of higher learning. Furthermore, someone with a degree will look a lot more appealing to a company than someone who researches stuff on google alot, if everything else is equal.
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On January 06 2011 15:50 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
there is some truth to that statement lol.
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On January 06 2011 15:50 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
its like condoms, would you rather have one and not need it or need one and not have it?
Ya; because condoms take 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to get.
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16986 Posts
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
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Mexico1178 Posts
On January 06 2011 18:30 Empyrean wrote:
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
who would want to go to a college
its not a neccesity, you can survive without it, but man... it open up an easier way to a better life
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Logged on to post in this thread. I think in the US it's more of a necessity to have a degree than it is in Europe. The thing is, like some people have already pointed out - some job's will require a BA/MBA etc.
I didn't go to University, but come from a background with everyone in my family having gone to university. I went to a private high school, and did my military service straight after high school, and basically started working after that. I have a background in marketing & sales, which is what I'm doing now. I work for a respected IT company, and have $80k+ salary. I have received training paid for by my employers, but for the most part it's been learning on the job, and reading books coherent to my work. Most jobs have 'required' a formal education, but I've gone through the loop holes through my network of contacts.
I will however study part time in the future to get a BA, just as a backup.
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To answer the OP question:
If you have the skills to visit a university or do a cooperative study - try to achieve the highest qualification possible and dont stop until you have mastered it or admittely reached your limit.
If you are simply not the type to do study, it is not a necessity to be successful in life.
The point is, that if you could do it, it would be a waste not to try it, if not, well so be it.
Another thing is that a done University study does not go hand in hand with success, since one-sided specialists are no longer the future. So if have any passion in your free-time - besides Starcraft - try to master that as well as your original business. It's the multi-skill that gives you the power to come up at the top.
To give you an example, you can be an IT-expert or programmer and also due to your interest and research a well-known musician or music-expert who knows how to work within this business. Who knows which skill will open the next door in the future for you?
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i'll make this fast so you wont get bored reading it.
in the end its all relative to what you want to do. you want to be a janitor, u dont need a degree because it doesnt require the knowledge obviously. you want to go into finance, you go into university because theres no way you can learn that without the education.
as well, university is important because pretty much everyone else is taking it. before if you went to university you were original. now, you have a university degree to pretty much be on the same plane as everyone else. the world's a competitive place. you do what you gotta do to keep up with everyone and then try to stand out afterwards
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On January 06 2011 15:44 QuadrupleMarklar wrote:
I dropped out of university, I now use Google.
And usually I get many more opinions and papers on each subject than one teacher and book can give... And more up to date as well.
Anyway, whatever you do... Don't get taken hostage by the System because you have a set plan to be able to feed a family with gadgets and luxury. Or that you can't get a good wife if you can't get a big ass house. It is a burden that no one should have, free yourself from it. There is always somewhere to move and people to meet that do not follow that idea.
This is absurd. College is also about collaborating with other students and sharing/combining ideas to come up with new ideas altogether. By simply using Google for things you want to learn, you are only allowing yourself to learn things that are interesting to you, in that moment, according to your limited perspective. College forces you to hear and consider ideas of individuals, as educated or more educated than yourself, and broaden your perspectives. It's also about having a certificate that shows that you can follow through with something that takes a lot of effort (not just in class, but financing college and taking care of the administrative work to get you through). There's no proof of effort or follow-through for someone that sits in their underwear Googling things and trolling internet forums.
The friends you make at a University can often grow into professional connections that prove incredibly valuable later in life. You can't make these same connections, and if you do they certainly won't be as strong, by trolling the internet.
EDIT: I also wanted to point out that OP has already made a decision and essentially wants people to validate his opinion of school. Here's the fact: People that have not gotten a 4-year degree are going to jump at the opportunity to tell you that you don't need one, and why not, it will make them feel better about not getting one. People that have in fact gotten a degree will tend to tell you to get one, again to make themselves feel better, but they don't need to make themselves feel better because they have a degree (and thus, they have more career options available to them).
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I'm currently in junior college. I'm not sure what that makes me.
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University is needed for a lot of carrer paths. It also looks good on paper when applying for jobs. Having one doesn't say anything about where you end up though. It is a plus without a doubt.
As for needing it, no, nobody needs it. Humans can live on extremely little and still raise another generation. Then it is about what you yourself think you need to be happy. Do you need a house you own yourself? Do you need to live in the suburbs? Do you need to live in a million person city? Every single thing you consider essential raises the salary you need and thus makes it more and more necessary to get an education or work your ass of to get to the same position.
For most people they can be happy overall with a normal factory floor job even if they grumble and dislike it. Those things don't require any education to get past the door, they prefer recommendations since they want hard workers with some brains over brains that slack.
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On January 06 2011 18:30 Empyrean wrote:
Still cheaper than raising a kid :/
Well... not by much. According to http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/kids/tlkidscost.asp
the average cost of raising a kid for the upper-middle-class income bracket is about $250k.
It costs $210k for 4 years at an elite institution.
Now assuming we die upon graduation (and we had our kid very early in life), we are out in the latter case not only $210k, but also at least 1/2 of our income had we worked those 4 years instead. So 2 years of average, high-school educated income is conservatively ~$40k.
This analysis is not correct if you take into account a longer lifespan, since a (n elite) college education generally correlates with a higher income.
But yeah, even on the monetary side, I think the analogy is very apt! :D
On January 07 2011 03:17 yema1 wrote:
I'm currently in junior college. I'm not sure what that makes me.
It makes you a studly young chap.
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Kid A gets a bottom level internship with company X, Kid B goes to a 4year Uni and gets a job for Company X, 5years, 10years, 15years down the road Kid B is still calling Kid A BOSS.
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On January 08 2011 11:31 Irrelevant wrote:
Kid A gets a bottom level internship with company X, Kid B goes to a 4year Uni and gets a job for Company X, 5years, 10years, 15years down the road Kid B is still calling Kid A BOSS.
And how does one do that without going to university? I've had two internships so far, and I couldn't have gotten either one had I not been at school.
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You don't need a college degree to be successful.
Success is a progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Let me give you an example:
IF you are presently a C student in 7th grade and you are working towards honors, actually doing activities that will develop you into an honors student you are just as successful as a millionaire businessman trying to increase his income into the billions and doing activities to actually increase his income substantially. You can become successful in an instant.
Also, college is not necessary to make a lot of money. In fact, Bill Gates dropped out of college (He's going back and getting his degree now if i'm not mistaken though). Henry Ford only had a couple weeks of schooling, he didn't even attend high school. Bob Proctor dropped out of high school after two months and worked for a fire hall for 4,000 dollars a year. He went on to study Napoleon Hill's work and took his income into the hundred thousands one year later, to the millions the year after. He has increased his income thousandfold and never attended college. Those are just a few examples.
http://www.college-startup.com/college/15-successful-entrepreneurs-who-didnt-need-college/
http://socyberty.com/people/10-famous-millionaire-high-school-dropouts/
I can give you thousands of examples. Hell, i've seen charts and tables showing a higher % of people without college degrees being millionaires than people with 4 year degrees being millionaires. The only thing a college degree does is help you land a job initially. However, working is the absolute worst way to make money. A college degree would be very helpful if you wanted to enter a field of physics/engineering, medicine, or law and you were completely committed to really excel in those fields and its what you wanted to do more than anything. Apart from that, I think its a waste of time to go to college, and money. Were living in a new economy, the beliefs of the masses about money originated way back 2000+ years ago. At this time working was probably the best way to make money unless you were born into wealth, however that IS NOT the case today. So many people go from poverty/middle class to being millionaires. You just need to make the decision to become one and follow a definite plan made by somebody with an abundance of knowledge regarding money (ie: a financial planner).
Hope that helps.
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Ok seriously this is how it is.
You are you.
Your life is...your life. No one else.
How you want to live it is your choice.
Going to a university has its perk, but not mandatory. It HELPS. But NOT mandatory.
How you wanna achieve your dream and goals is solely dependent on YOU.
If you think a university degree is a must then that is YOUR choice. If you think otherwise, an alternative path will show only after YOU find it.
There are options in life. Life is not some linear thing where some theory or rules can be applied to it ("you must have a degree to be successful").
Remember:
There are always options in life. Always.
And no means yes.
Live your life.
Make your rules
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Don't need university if your plan is to start (or work for) one of those "garage" companies. Certainly not if you're gonna study programming. If you plan to work for a big company then you kinda need a degree.
University is easier as in you're pampered, you're always being led by someone and standards are lower. Self education requires a motivation that is absent in most people and you should really know without a doubt if you're not one of them. But in your area, it is certainly possible to educate yourself (not exactly a lone enterprise) using the web as a guide.
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As far as college being necessary, it really depends on what you want to do. I am currently in medical school and to be here, I had to get a degree that was not only expensive but completely worthless to me now. It was merely a stepping stone.
That said, some bachelor degrees do teach you skills, but those tend to be uncommon. I'm talking actual technical skills, not theory. As much as I had to study in undergrad, it was all concepts and nothing I could get a job with.
I have several CS friends who discuss the general worthlessness of some of their classes as they can learn relevant languages faster on their own, but sometimes, you need to prove your worth to some companies and that might have to be with an overpriced piece of paper.
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College is a tool, it doesn't create an outcome for you.Success comes from hard work and determination. In college, you WILL have the materials to be successful if you use them, unfortunately i know too many people who just coast through classes and complain about their free time . So much tuition money spent on amazing out of class lectures, huge databases, research facilities, libraries etc... and so little of it used!
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university isn't a necessity, but (like many have already said) it makes things easier.
In most industries (particularly the one you want to get into) experience counts for much more than the piece of paper. The problem is usually just getting your foot in the door (which a degree helps with).
Trades are often dismissed out of hand. My father is a master drywaller/taper/construction worker and has built up quite a reputation. He consistently gets $40-$60/hour jobs, with the occasional $75-90/hour gem.
I've not yet graduated from highschool, and i managed to have the right skill set and a lot of luck to establish a solid career for myself designing video games. If i continue on my path, i would not be surprised to see myself sitting at a six figure salary at some point.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that you have time. I have several friends who decided to go back to school when they were older (24-30) and start their career then. They do not regret working their earlier years, travelling, saving money, personal growth, etc, before throwing themselves into debt. Along those lines, i have several other friends who obtained a degree and either didn't use it, or found out afterwards that they do not want to do it for the rest of their lives. It's not race. Take your time.
good luck to you in whatever you decide.
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On January 05 2011 11:11 Sm3agol wrote:
I'm currently making about $55k a year at age 25 with no college degree, so no, it's not exactly necessary. It does make it easier on you though. From what I've seen experience > degree. If you have two guys, one with no degree and 4 years experience in a field, and the other with a 4 year degree and no experience, the guy with the experience has the edge.
Obviously this doesn't apply to some careers like doctors/lawyers/etc, though, so it all depends on where you want to end up in life.
Edit:
On the other hand though, I would love to have a degree.....it just isn't worth it, because in the time it would take to get a degree, I could have made $210k....I would love a degree in music...but the practical side of me knows that I'll never make good money playing what I love, classical music.
Omg I feel you man, I decided that I wouldn't have the persistence to put in the effort for a music degree/performance career and went to take a Pharmacy degree instead. 2nd year right now.
That being said, professional careers require their respective degrees, otherwise a degree has some other uses such as for aspiring teachers/professors but imho taking a degree just for the sake of it is just not meaningful unless you want to cover your bases.
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Well, I left school about halfway through Year 12 due to some bad family circumstances/couldn't be fucked anymore. I've completed 2 Certificate 4's in Business/Information Support, and am working as a full time Computer Technician at my local PC store here in our small town.
Am I earning a lot? Not a huge amount, but it's more than enough for a comfortable lifestyle with my own car/home/newest technology/eating out with friends etc.
Opens up a lot more for me as well with manufacturer training and having a good standing if you will with our TAFE, I always have the option to return to do some more learning.
Put it this way, when I applied for my job, I got selected over people who had degrees/graduated.
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I'm amazed by the disparity between some of the posts in this thread. Many argue that University is a must; that very few people break from the norm and perform better without a college degree than with. Then there are others that cite cases and methods of living well without a degree.
One thing that interested me: some people said that certain degrees were worthless. Well then why do people pursue degrees in art history or music in the first place. I'd think companies would still have a requirement that a person have a degree for a job even if they weren't doing engineering or medicine or law.
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If you know what you want to do, you don't have to go to uni. Or goto uni to do the thing you wanna do.
For the rest of us, there's the art history, psych, liberal arts majors. Just so we can get a diploma which is basically like pledging to a fraternity: meaningless work you do to prove youre eligible...
The point of a diploma is that its supposed to show others you're a responsible person, capable and disciplined to completing a long term task. Most ppl at graduating age don't have much to show, so having completed school is a huge accomplishment on your resume. Its also supposed to tell that you're an educated person capable of critical thinking, but since uni stopped teaching that long time ago when they decided they wanted to enroll everyone, that's really no longer the case.
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I don't carry a University degree simply due to not having had time to get one yet (planning on going there soon) when i finished school I first took a year just traveling visiting diffrent countries and having fun. When I got back I was ready for Uni but then my dad died so I couldn't really focus on studying so instead I spent my whole days doing fuck all sitting in nothing but my pants watching TV playing Videogames, untill I realised "Oh shit I have rent to pay and I have no money" so I got of my ass looked at the work market and went "Oh crap". So I just did what I always do, I solved the issue. Went to a company that needed a handy man/IT guy and said "I'll work for free for two weeks no strings attached" they said "Sure" did my two weeks, left and in November I got a call offering me a full time job.
The first thing they did was send me China for a week to document/translate, they were really happy with the results and I'm now sitting on the 32,679 dollars a year with 5 weeks paid vacation a year.Living very comfortably. After taxes, rent, electricity and all that boring stuff you need to pay every month I get 1447 dollars to spend on "a decent life". So at least in Sweden it's very much possible. I spend way less than I earn and I feel like I'm spending money by the bucket.
Also getting payed to go to another country to take pictures is probably the best job in the world.
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If you are not planning on going to university be prepared to have talent, and be really REALLY determined.
If not you will not be successful.
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yeah im going uni before they raise the price like knobs
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Your question is a poorly posed one. Of course obtaining a degree from an accredited institution isn't necessary; there are plenty of real life examples of people not going to college and becoming successful.
But should you get a degree? If the opportunity presents itself (ie; you don't have to help your parents with the rent because you're not well off financially), then ABSOLUTELY. Do not listen to posts with cute little anecdotes about not going to college and making $X/yr, these accounts should make zero impact in your decision making process. For every one of these posts I could easily find a homeless person without a degree. Your chances of finding a lucrative position are vastly superior with a degree than without, and there have been tons of studies done on this by universities/ BLS/ etc. And even if you could find a nice position somewhere without a degree, let's say your parents own a car dealership or something, who's to say that you wouldn't do even better WITH a degree. If you're posing the question then it's not about necessity, but choice; and it clearly favors you/your career to attend college.
Plus, college is pretty damn fun
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Thanks, love those.
Really a bit too much to believe in its entirety. I like to maintain a healthy skepticism.
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EPT
