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On October 02 2010 01:21 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 10:34 BraveGhost wrote:On October 01 2010 10:32 Dfgj wrote:
Liability exists where the consequence of their actions is directly and logically progressed from the act, and foreseeable by a reasonable man in their situation. If you can prove that such a response (suicide) is a logical progression from them filming him, then you can charge them with manslaughter.
Probably not.
They'll still probably be hit with something, at least, but I doubt murder charges. Their probably gonna be advised by a lawyer to just go after the breach of privacy issue.. they might bring up manslaughter in court as a kind of .. look at what happened... kind of deal, but manslaughter won't hold up as far as I know From what I know, manslaughter is the weakest of all possible charges resulting in death. The people in this thread who are equating it with murder are completely clueless.
you are right about Manslaughter being the weakest. Murder requires intent to kill, which I would say is not present in this case, and no one could prove anyway. Manslaughter can be broken down into voluntary and involuntary. Voluntary means that you did intend to kill them or cause serious harm, but there are some other mitigating circumstances, such as provocation, or diminished capacity. Involuntary means you did not intent to kill the person, but they died as a result of your actions anyway. It could be argued about whether they did or did not commit manslaughter, but if i was the prosecutor I would charge them with it, but have little hope of it sticking. It really would be more of an attempt to make the jury convict on the other charges.
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Yeah, I don't see that big a stretch from invasion of privacy to involuntary manslaughter. Erin Andrews' stalker got 30 months in jail and this was much worse. Filming somebody having sex is a much higher breach of privacy than filming somebody taking a shower. Pretty sure manslaughter barely goes over 10 years, so the involuntary kind is a much lesser sentence.
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this happened at my school shiet suicide awareness wear black ppl
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On October 01 2010 06:08 Caller wrote:
Rather than talk about privacy, I think we need a serious discussion on how fucking stupid suicide is.
Every religion and even just plain old evolutionary thought discusses suicide as being a waste of everything. Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish thing to do. When people try and OD on pills and whatnot, all they are doing is wasting medical resources that other people may need, just because they can't deal with a period of angst. Sure, it might be really hard on you, but how is it just that you can waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources) just because of your own self-pity and angst? Especially teenagers. They fail to see how people struggle to survive in places and they take that gift of not having to worry about surviving the next day and just throwing it away. They fail to understand what parents have spent a HUGE portion of their lives doing. This guy must have had super parents backing him up to become such an accomplished violinist. Just because his roommate streamed video of him making out with a guy he throws all that away? Ungrateful is what it is.
Homophobia (thought it is a huge problem, and I am as guilty as the next person) isn't the issue here. It could have been some other kind of stimulus and this kid likely would've still thrown it away. I know people who have committed suicide just because they couldn't get tenure. I know people who have nearly thrown their lives away for some of the most stupid reasons. I know kids who have thought about suicide just because they were being bullied at school. So was I! I was being bullied a LOT in middle school, but I took it like a man and changed so that was no longer the case.
There was a J-drama I watched that best sums up how hypocritical suicide is. A person is shown a video of their open heart surgery, especially how their heart is beating. The doctor remarks how ironic it is that while she is trying to throw her life away, that little heart is like a baby struggling to stay alive. And the thought that if you killed yourself you would be taking this baby down with you too-that perhaps is the feeling we need to convey to stupid angsty people.
Suicide shouldn't be deified or used as support for a cause like we see here. Suicide isn't something to turn people into martyrs. It should be ridiculed, laughed at, and just made to be the cowardly, selfish act that it is, so that the only people that end up doing it are the cowardly selfish people that we would be better off without.
I'm sorry but I find the first part of your post, about suicide really ironic. And you shouldn't judge anyone based on what you think is right or what your religion thinks. People's level of tolerance is as different as with physical pain, perhaps even more. And the medical supplies thing is just you trying to make your opinion better, it's stupid, leave it.
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On October 01 2010 23:44 Shakes wrote:
Broadcasting someone without their consent is a form of sexual assault. End of story there as far as the rights and wrongs of it goes, that he's committed suicide over it is tragic and an example of exactly why it's something there are laws against.
As to anyone who is saying "oh so he was outed, no big deal, no reason to kill yourself", I really think you need to consider the fact that the suicide rate among GLBT youths is much higher than the general population (generally reported as four times higher, but that's probably an underestimate). It's not just some isolated guy who decided to throw himself off a bridge, there are kids being bullied to death every day. It's pretty damn easy to say it's no big deal when it's not happening to you, but clearly for a lot of people it is a big deal and they are killing themselves over it.
As for the other extreme of wanting to charge this guy with murder, I think that lets every other homophobe out there off the hook. Everyone out there who makes society a hostile place for gay people has to take their share of the blame, there's no washing your hands and saying it was just a guy with a web cam that did it.
In fact suicide rate in the LGBT youth is at 30% and goes as far as 84% of transgender persons having considered suicide and 54% of them have attempted suicide at least once.
http://www.sprc.org/library/SPRC_LGBT_Youth.pdf
So anyone saying that being outed is no big deal clearly does not understand what most gay/transgendered persons are going through
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If this was an issue of privacy over a heterosexual, this wouldn't even be a news story. Sad but true.
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On October 02 2010 03:20 ThemAcorns wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:08 Caller wrote:
Rather than talk about privacy, I think we need a serious discussion on how fucking stupid suicide is.
Every religion and even just plain old evolutionary thought discusses suicide as being a waste of everything. Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish thing to do. When people try and OD on pills and whatnot, all they are doing is wasting medical resources that other people may need, just because they can't deal with a period of angst. Sure, it might be really hard on you, but how is it just that you can waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources) just because of your own self-pity and angst? Especially teenagers. They fail to see how people struggle to survive in places and they take that gift of not having to worry about surviving the next day and just throwing it away. They fail to understand what parents have spent a HUGE portion of their lives doing. This guy must have had super parents backing him up to become such an accomplished violinist. Just because his roommate streamed video of him making out with a guy he throws all that away? Ungrateful is what it is.
Homophobia (thought it is a huge problem, and I am as guilty as the next person) isn't the issue here. It could have been some other kind of stimulus and this kid likely would've still thrown it away. I know people who have committed suicide just because they couldn't get tenure. I know people who have nearly thrown their lives away for some of the most stupid reasons. I know kids who have thought about suicide just because they were being bullied at school. So was I! I was being bullied a LOT in middle school, but I took it like a man and changed so that was no longer the case.
There was a J-drama I watched that best sums up how hypocritical suicide is. A person is shown a video of their open heart surgery, especially how their heart is beating. The doctor remarks how ironic it is that while she is trying to throw her life away, that little heart is like a baby struggling to stay alive. And the thought that if you killed yourself you would be taking this baby down with you too-that perhaps is the feeling we need to convey to stupid angsty people.
Suicide shouldn't be deified or used as support for a cause like we see here. Suicide isn't something to turn people into martyrs. It should be ridiculed, laughed at, and just made to be the cowardly, selfish act that it is, so that the only people that end up doing it are the cowardly selfish people that we would be better off without. I'm sorry but I find the first part of your post, about suicide really ironic. And you shouldn't judge anyone based on what you think is right or what your religion thinks. People's level of tolerance is as different as with physical pain, perhaps even more. And the medical supplies thing is just you trying to make your opinion better, it's stupid, leave it.
You just got trolled..
waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources)
clearly he's not being serious
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On October 02 2010 03:59 wxwx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:20 ThemAcorns wrote:On October 01 2010 06:08 Caller wrote:
Rather than talk about privacy, I think we need a serious discussion on how fucking stupid suicide is.
Every religion and even just plain old evolutionary thought discusses suicide as being a waste of everything. Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish thing to do. When people try and OD on pills and whatnot, all they are doing is wasting medical resources that other people may need, just because they can't deal with a period of angst. Sure, it might be really hard on you, but how is it just that you can waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources) just because of your own self-pity and angst? Especially teenagers. They fail to see how people struggle to survive in places and they take that gift of not having to worry about surviving the next day and just throwing it away. They fail to understand what parents have spent a HUGE portion of their lives doing. This guy must have had super parents backing him up to become such an accomplished violinist. Just because his roommate streamed video of him making out with a guy he throws all that away? Ungrateful is what it is.
Homophobia (thought it is a huge problem, and I am as guilty as the next person) isn't the issue here. It could have been some other kind of stimulus and this kid likely would've still thrown it away. I know people who have committed suicide just because they couldn't get tenure. I know people who have nearly thrown their lives away for some of the most stupid reasons. I know kids who have thought about suicide just because they were being bullied at school. So was I! I was being bullied a LOT in middle school, but I took it like a man and changed so that was no longer the case.
There was a J-drama I watched that best sums up how hypocritical suicide is. A person is shown a video of their open heart surgery, especially how their heart is beating. The doctor remarks how ironic it is that while she is trying to throw her life away, that little heart is like a baby struggling to stay alive. And the thought that if you killed yourself you would be taking this baby down with you too-that perhaps is the feeling we need to convey to stupid angsty people.
Suicide shouldn't be deified or used as support for a cause like we see here. Suicide isn't something to turn people into martyrs. It should be ridiculed, laughed at, and just made to be the cowardly, selfish act that it is, so that the only people that end up doing it are the cowardly selfish people that we would be better off without. I'm sorry but I find the first part of your post, about suicide really ironic. And you shouldn't judge anyone based on what you think is right or what your religion thinks. People's level of tolerance is as different as with physical pain, perhaps even more. And the medical supplies thing is just you trying to make your opinion better, it's stupid, leave it. You just got trolled.. waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources)
clearly he's not being serious
Stop using the word troll if you haven't read the friggin' topic. He clearly explains later he more so meant people who OD on pills use up medical resources because they get sent to the ER and take up all the medical staff from other people who need it.
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The thing is though that if he was caught having sex with a blow-up doll/mega fat girl/apple pie or something else it would have been all over the internet as an awesome prank.
Also there is no way they can be charged with manslaughter, the roomate had nothing to do with the death itself, the guy killed himself. The worst they can get is some invasion of privacy stuff.
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On October 02 2010 03:34 cr4ckshot wrote:
If this was an issue of privacy over a heterosexual, this wouldn't even be a news story. Sad but true.
If it had been a heterosexual person then they would still be alive. If the kid hadn't killed him self it wouldn't be a news story either.
On a related note, I didn't realize that such a large portion of TL was homophobic bigots. I only hope you find some way to break out of the hate.
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some of the ppl's post is fucking disgusting how little empathy they have, how homophobic they are, and probably religious.
the guy was ridiculed and humiliated about something still considered wrong to be in this country.
it's like hidden streaming a high school girl having sex and showing it to the whole school via livestream.
first off, it's fucking wrong. second off, it is a huge invasion of privacy. third, the following result of ridicule and mockery and harassment that would follow would be devastating to anyone's psyche.
you people have no sensitivity to the topic at hand.
the fuckers who did this should be sent to jail for this.
i hope they can swing manslaugher, stuff like this shouldn't end with the perpetrators having their wrists slapped.
if this isn't punished significantly, it is just like saying okay to web harassment in the case of the girl who killed herself due to web harassment by the mom of a friend of hers who know she was clinically depressed. it is like... okay, you can plant hidden cams without any consequences except for minor invasion of privacy charges.
they need to be made an example of.
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On October 02 2010 03:20 ThemAcorns wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:08 Caller wrote:
Rather than talk about privacy, I think we need a serious discussion on how fucking stupid suicide is.
Every religion and even just plain old evolutionary thought discusses suicide as being a waste of everything. Suicide is probably the ultimate selfish thing to do. When people try and OD on pills and whatnot, all they are doing is wasting medical resources that other people may need, just because they can't deal with a period of angst. Sure, it might be really hard on you, but how is it just that you can waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources) just because of your own self-pity and angst? Especially teenagers. They fail to see how people struggle to survive in places and they take that gift of not having to worry about surviving the next day and just throwing it away. They fail to understand what parents have spent a HUGE portion of their lives doing. This guy must have had super parents backing him up to become such an accomplished violinist. Just because his roommate streamed video of him making out with a guy he throws all that away? Ungrateful is what it is.
Homophobia (thought it is a huge problem, and I am as guilty as the next person) isn't the issue here. It could have been some other kind of stimulus and this kid likely would've still thrown it away. I know people who have committed suicide just because they couldn't get tenure. I know people who have nearly thrown their lives away for some of the most stupid reasons. I know kids who have thought about suicide just because they were being bullied at school. So was I! I was being bullied a LOT in middle school, but I took it like a man and changed so that was no longer the case.
There was a J-drama I watched that best sums up how hypocritical suicide is. A person is shown a video of their open heart surgery, especially how their heart is beating. The doctor remarks how ironic it is that while she is trying to throw her life away, that little heart is like a baby struggling to stay alive. And the thought that if you killed yourself you would be taking this baby down with you too-that perhaps is the feeling we need to convey to stupid angsty people.
Suicide shouldn't be deified or used as support for a cause like we see here. Suicide isn't something to turn people into martyrs. It should be ridiculed, laughed at, and just made to be the cowardly, selfish act that it is, so that the only people that end up doing it are the cowardly selfish people that we would be better off without. I'm sorry but I find the first part of your post, about suicide really ironic. And you shouldn't judge anyone based on what you think is right or what your religion thinks. People's level of tolerance is as different as with physical pain, perhaps even more. And the medical supplies thing is just you trying to make your opinion better, it's stupid, leave it.
dude, forget the first post, read the last part:
Suicide shouldn't be deified or used as support for a cause like we see here. Suicide isn't something to turn people into martyrs. It should be ridiculed, laughed at, and just made to be the cowardly, selfish act that it is, so that the only people that end up doing it are the cowardly selfish people that we would be better off without.
to the original post with this incredibly one sided point of view. are you religious? are you a christian? i thought you were supposed to pull the plank out of your own eye before picking a splinter out of someone else's.
i don't agree with you at all.
suicide can be spurned by reasons that others consider petty, but you never know unless you sit in their shoes.
they could be suffering from brain chemical imbalances, depression, schizophrenia and what not. who are you to judge that whole group of people as a whole, you are just an insignificant little miscreant in the grand scale of things.
ugh.
respect people rather than looking down on them for no reason.
religion should not be used as proof that your point of view is valid, they are all grand fairy tales anyway.
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Garaman the post you are flaming about just talks about all religions and basic human instinct. He was just making the point that throughout history people have thought Suicide to be wrong for some valid reasons. No where did he say, "I'm Christian and I say suicide is a sin and you go to hell." You are just assuming these things about him by his opinion and are looking down on him because you guessed he was religious. I think you should take your own advice of respecting people rather than looking down on them for no reason.
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On October 01 2010 06:33 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:25 Asur wrote:On October 01 2010 06:08 Caller wrote:
just because they can't deal with a period of angst. Sure, it might be really hard on you, but how is it just that you can waste people's time and energy, and threaten the lives of others (by depleting medical resources) just because of your own self-pity and angst? You clearly have never had to deal with anxiety or depression if you can type such nonsense... lol. I spent three years with a psychiatrist because I was being bullied. I know what it's like, believe me. Even today I still suffer from anxiety. Oh I even contemplated suicide at one point, believe me. But just thinking about all the people that would be hurt if I did that just made it such a sickening idea that I threw up. Everybody thinks their angst and depression is real bad. The fact is people should live their lives and see what's down the road. Who knows, they may be able to look back on it and laugh, or they may think of it as happier times. This is the equivalent of someone thinking that since a coin flipped tails two times in a row that they should stop trying to get a heads.
Pathetic you compare you ability to not stand up for yourself to being gay. They people you would hurt if you killed you self wouldn't look at you any differently for being bullied. They would for being gay. Don't you hear of the stories about gay people coming out and having friend and family disown them. Do not compare being bullied to being gay.
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On October 01 2010 22:39 NukeTheBunnys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 16:55 XeliN wrote:On October 01 2010 16:08 TOloseGT wrote:On October 01 2010 15:50 XeliN wrote:On October 01 2010 15:37 TOloseGT wrote:On October 01 2010 13:33 Kurr wrote:In this case, it's just some people trying their hardest to cause someone else grief. Maybe I'm putting my own thoughts too much in the story but I doubt they were friends. I've had roommates who didn't like me who decided to play loud music until 4am every night for no real reason other than being a childish person. Some people are just assholes. There's really no need to think about it further. For some reason they derive pleasure from annoying/hurting/etc others. Lets leave emotion at the door please. They obviously did not go out of their way to cause harm to the guy. A webcam comes cheap nowadays. The roommate decided to be immature for one night and ended up making the worst mistake of his life. Even more sad is that he brought along his friend, who has shown no evidence of bearing ill intent to the guy, yet they're charging her all the same. This guy decided to kill himself, and in the process killed the lives of two bright, young people who most likely would have matured past this immature stage. Should one mistake cause this much grief? One ruined life is enough. You should work in politics, this is misrepresentation and twisting at it's best. You think "immaturity" is a just excuse for these people who are college age? You think it adequately described as a "mistake"? And as to "They obviously did not go out of their way to cause harm to the guy" this is one of the most ignorant comments in this thread and from looking over it believe me thats saying alot. I never used immaturity as an excuse, I used it as a fact. Do you honestly think college kids aren't capable of immature acts? And yes, I do believe it was a mistake, an error in judgment. Just as it was a mistake for the guy to kill himself. However, blaming those two for the suicide is just too easy. People want to point fingers, especially in these cases where an innocent dies. Realising they ought not be held responsible for the suicide and alleviating them of responsibility for their actions by deeming it an error of judgement, a mistake and down to an immature stage are two entirely different things. So you say these two people made a mistake, and should not be punished for it. Where do you draw the line, I made a mistake and drove home drunk and kill a carload of people, or I came home caught my wife cheating on my and killed both of them. These are mistakes that the person will probability regret after the fact, but it doesn't change the fact people are dead because of their actions. And yes blaming these two for the suicided is extremely easy, because it is their fault. Take them out of the picture, the video doesn't get made, the kid doesn't kill him self. It is as simple as that. THEIR ACTIONS CAUSED HIS DEATH. They intentionally tried to humiliate and harass him, did they know he would take it this harshly, no probably not. This is why they are not being charged with murder and they are only being charged with filming/broadcasting with out permission. I don't care what you think about whether its their fault that this guy committed suicide, they did film, and broadcast it with out his permission and that is punishable by law, and they should be punished for doing something so incredibly immature and stupid.
You misunderstood what I was arguing, essentially it is the same point your making. My post was in response to what someone else wrote.
*arguing a similar point, although THEIR ACTIONS CAUSED HIS DEATH written so blunt and emphatically I disagree with
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On October 02 2010 04:20 NukeTheBunnys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:34 cr4ckshot wrote:
If this was an issue of privacy over a heterosexual, this wouldn't even be a news story. Sad but true. If it had been a heterosexual person then they would still be alive. If the kid hadn't killed him self it wouldn't be a news story either. On a related note, I didn't realize that such a large portion of TL was homophobic bigots. I only hope you find some way to break out of the hate.
Whoa...how was my comment homophobic to any degree? Honestly, your sexual orientation is your business.
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A lot of people seem to misunderstand the situation or focus too much on the suicide itself. What's relevant are the reasons he killed himself and the charges on the culprits. While we can't 100% divine what he was thinking before he took his life, it's already fairly well known that the suicide rate among gays is quite high. For those hiding in the closet, one of the most traumatic things is to be forcibly outed. You've not only been outed as a sexual deviant at a time you weren't prepared, but were also caught hiding it. That alone comes with its own magnitude of shame that was only amplified IMMENSELY when the means of his outed was being filmed having gay sex and having it streamed to many people. I can't help but think he probably felt that the entire world was rapidly closing in around him and crushing him. Not that this justifies suicide, but all circumstances considered, it doesn't surprise me.
The roommate should have realized that what he was dealing with wasn't something he should have messed with or exposed like that. It's one thing to catch him and tell everyone else that he's gay, but it's another to do something like this to him without his knowledge. I can only imagine the kid's head swimming with unimaginable horror when he found out what his roommate did.
Lastly, what the roommate did is quite illegal so he deserves to be brought to justice. Whether it's a hate crime or not will be determined and those charges will or will not be stacked on top of his manslaughter and privacy invasion related charges. While it's impossible to 100% say that the roommate CAUSED the kid's death, most laws include language like "to a reasonable person" which means they can stick it on him easily and it'll be up to his lawyer to convince the jury that he didn't CAUSE the death. Because, to a reasonable person, the event seems to have caused the suicide.
The fact that the kid was gay is quite important, as it was part of the big pile of shame the kid felt when this happened to cause him to kill himself. It's also why the roommate might get hate crime charges if they are convinced he acted in bias.
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On October 02 2010 06:13 cr4ckshot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 04:20 NukeTheBunnys wrote:On October 02 2010 03:34 cr4ckshot wrote:
If this was an issue of privacy over a heterosexual, this wouldn't even be a news story. Sad but true. If it had been a heterosexual person then they would still be alive. If the kid hadn't killed him self it wouldn't be a news story either. On a related note, I didn't realize that such a large portion of TL was homophobic bigots. I only hope you find some way to break out of the hate. Whoa...how was my comment homophobic to any degree? Honestly, your sexual orientation is your business.
I don't think he was calling you out, but rather the community as a whole. He's right, though, its pathetic how many people here are homophobes. I just don't get it, I don't give a fuck what ANYONES orientation is. You can be having a 3 way with hermaphroditic midgets for all I care, it doesn't effect me.
As for the person who said "suicide should be mocked", you're wrong. You're also an idiot. I hate to break into ad hominems but I feel you earned it in this case. Mocking suicide will make it so much worse. If someone is considering suicide, it is (in their mind) a rational decision. It seems like the most efficient way to end the pain. They're miserable and likely already feel terrible that they are considering it. Saying that anyone who commits suicide is a coward, or weak, or anything like that will only exacerbate a suicidal teens feeling of worthlessness, ostracisation, or pain.
The way I see it, the only way anyone could make those comments is if they've never been anywhere near depressed in their entire life.
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its the internet and the need for attention whoring over the internet.(im not talking about the suicide part but about how this kind of things start. the filming idea, the streaming and so on).
Its all about the way people are taught to socialize over the internet and about how they apply that in real life. without any other reference point, (like the real life) they think they can do or say almost everything IRL just like on the internet then just put a LOL at the end and everything will be fine. No one gets hurt over the internet, its all fun and games, its all pretends.
Ive seen people laughing at taliban execution footages while making all kind of fucked up comments about the dudes head flying arround or how someone elses brains painted the walls. They were all watching, laughing and saying "its not real" while it was obviously real. Thats fucked up beyond words and those kind of people are not few. Sure, the degree of "reality" one can take over the internet varies from person to person but they are all "taught" that "its not real" and that it doesnt hurt you, the guy behind the monitor. I do not say that it teaches or makes you do so this or that but that it dissociates you from the reality, it lets you choose a morally comfortable perspective from which you can view/say things over the internet. That shit doesnt work irl and sadly fewer and fewer people can make that distinction.
His roomate saw his chance at the internet flame and took it. With "its not real" in mind and thinking he will get saved in the end by the all mighty LOL he did what he did thinking only of the consequences his actions will have for him.
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aw is that IdRa??
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
