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On October 02 2010 07:56 Grumbaki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 02:41 Usurper wrote:
How can you NOT take freedom of press/speech for granted in 21st Century? The audacity to even do it like that and "reason" it out as bad, makes my blood to boil! I can't wait for the fall of the Chinese government. I'm sorry to answer that way but 99% chinese people reading your last sentence would answer the same way: Seeing you're macedonian, don't you think a bit less freedom of speech press and better status on: crime rate, corruption, unemployment rate, poverty rate would be an immediate plus for the macedonian population?
How in hell do you made those things that you numbered, interconnected with freedom of speech? And more so, saying it like freedom of speech is reverse proportional to the rate of the other things. Did you even think about it before pressing "post"?
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and did you read the thread before posting high horse principles?
Freedom of speech in a non educated irrational racist and somehow sexist country ends up in real bad shit. Point and examples were made several times in the thread.
We never said we are against it but now isn't (yet) a good moment for china. Point was made several times in the thread.
They work first on the stuff I listed. That was immediate need. Point was made several times in the thread.
Pragamatic people get things done. Evolutions are more efficient than revolutions. Point was made several times in the thread.
Seeing your signature and your rethorics, flame on like I care. Have fun.
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On October 02 2010 09:05 Grumbaki wrote:
We never said we are against it but now isn't (yet) a good moment for china. Point was made several times in the thread.
What the hell is China if not the people who live in it? Thats who i relate to. Do i care if an political entity as China survives the evolution/revolution as whole? Of course, not. "Pragmatic" enslavers like yourself are the cause of this sheep-like humanity. You constantly try to enforce submission by inciting fear and doubt in the Individual. Holy crap, and even the CONSIDERATION of Freedom of Speech as possible "bad tool"! haha!
I don't need to flame you, this last sentence talks about how enlightened you really are.
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On October 02 2010 09:26 Usurper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:05 Grumbaki wrote:
We never said we are against it but now isn't (yet) a good moment for china. Point was made several times in the thread.
What the hell is China if not the people who live in it? Thats who i relate to. Do i care if an political entity as China survives the evolution/revolution as whole? Of course, not. "Pragmatic" enslavers like yourself are the cause of this sheep-like humanity. You constantly try to enforce submission by inciting fear and doubt in the Individual. Holy crap, and even the CONSIDERATION of Freedom of Speech as possible "bad tool"! haha! I don't need to flame you, this last sentence talks about how enlightened you really are.
freedom of speech? its just a political paradox used by parts of western media to brainwash fools. good to see not every1 is as ignorant.
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On September 29 2010 07:33 Grumbaki wrote:
The Xingjiang riots. What happened then? This is off the record speech from both officials and and dissidents.
A sms rumor started in guanzhou that xinjiang minority migrant workers raped and killed a girl. Pure rumor. Spread real fast. Result: 2 dead xinjiang dude.
The info spreads to Xinjiang. Retaliation by Xinjiangren on Han. Gov shuts down the province and retaliate (that's the part that was known in the media).
This is page 1 of the thread. I'm not the only one to have stated that and several other examples were given by other people.
The people you are "relating to" are sometimes dying because of irrational pseudo public speech.
Then you proceed to call me names without knowing me and distorting my points. Good job: this ain't flaming, it's borderline trolling.
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On October 02 2010 09:47 Grumbaki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 07:33 Grumbaki wrote:
The Xingjiang riots. What happened then? This is off the record speech from both officials and and dissidents.
A sms rumor started in guanzhou that xinjiang minority migrant workers raped and killed a girl. Pure rumor. Spread real fast. Result: 2 dead xinjiang dude.
The info spreads to Xinjiang. Retaliation by Xinjiangren on Han. Gov shuts down the province and retaliate (that's the part that was known in the media).
This is page 1 of the thread. I'm not the only one to have stated that and several other examples were given by other people. The people you are "relating to" are sometimes dying because of irrational pseudo public speech. Then you proceed to call me names without knowing me and distorting my points. Good job: this ain't flaming, it's borderline trolling.
Some idiots killed a man because of a rumor - LET'S BAN FREEDOM OF SPEECH!
Tomorrow some idiots will try to eat lead, gold, cleaning powder, and consequentially die. So what then, ban all of these right? You are funny... and not very smart.
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On September 29 2010 07:47 Wreacknell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 07:22 synapse wrote:On September 29 2010 07:03 hifriend wrote:
The nobel peace prize lost all its credibility when it was awarded to a man who's currently president of a nation fighting two wars (of aggression). That is the worst argument for Obama not deserving the Nobel Peace Prize that I've ever heard. Not only did he take office in the midst of these wars, he also led the withdrawal from these wars. On-topic: yeah, China... ... tsk tsk. Warning the Nobel committee to not award the Nobel Peace Prize to a political prisoner is only going to make them look worse to the rest of the world, what were they thinking? Renaming troops and putting goverment contractors in doesnt replace lost life in Afg or Iran(soon)/q.
Oh, so clearly obama should have come into office and instantly pulled the entire military out of afganistan and iraq without a word?
On another note, I really like that we're seeing some actaul chinese perspective on the democratic movements (and opposition) that are going on in china. It's so easy to point fingers to China and say "you're doing it wrong" without actually understanding what's going on. Revolution doesn't happen overnight, and it can be a painful and destructive thing to go through. If it isn't done with any kind of stability, then a new democratic government will crack and be overthrown, causing even more strife.
I wouldn't be surprised if, 50 years from now, china is the world's primary superpower.
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On October 02 2010 10:24 Usurper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 09:47 Grumbaki wrote:On September 29 2010 07:33 Grumbaki wrote:
The Xingjiang riots. What happened then? This is off the record speech from both officials and and dissidents.
A sms rumor started in guanzhou that xinjiang minority migrant workers raped and killed a girl. Pure rumor. Spread real fast. Result: 2 dead xinjiang dude.
The info spreads to Xinjiang. Retaliation by Xinjiangren on Han. Gov shuts down the province and retaliate (that's the part that was known in the media).
This is page 1 of the thread. I'm not the only one to have stated that and several other examples were given by other people. The people you are "relating to" are sometimes dying because of irrational pseudo public speech. Then you proceed to call me names without knowing me and distorting my points. Good job: this ain't flaming, it's borderline trolling. Some idiots killed a man because of a rumor - LET'S BAN FREEDOM OF SPEECH! Tomorrow some idiots will try to eat lead, gold, cleaning powder, and consequentially die. So what then, ban all of these right? You are funny... and not very smart.
It seems that you've misunderstood China to a large degree. Many things in many countries start from a rumor especially there are Religion or Ethnic involved.
I have deep respect for what Chinese gov has archived. They are now building one of the world future super power. In many places in China, it has already better than EU.
Most people in China dont give a shit about freedom of speech. Do you think that you can go out on a strike, talk free about shits on the street is freedom of speech? No it isnt.
Most Chinese people live a very comfortable life do whatever they want. Their income increase day by day, and that is what most people care about.
Many media in the west still bash countries like China or Vietnam for human rights, freedom..etc.. but people in those countries dont care, that the point. What make us human happy? Largely based on how much money you earn.
Imagine that you earn like 1 dollar a day and you live in a so called "freedom" country compare to you earn like 100 dollars a day and live a "no freedom" country... I dont know about you, but I'd take that $100 everytime.
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The view that educated people in China are aware of the situation in China is wrong. The students in college began their brainwash procedure in elementary schools. The textbooks,TVs,newspapers are extremely effective since freedom of speech doesn't exist here. Your blogs with sensitive words are immediately deleted when found with help of GFW and other internet censor departments. The people that are more aware of the situation are still a minority. If you are not scorned when giving your "childish", "cynical","negative" comments on the government, you'll be called a traitor for not loving your own government.
China may not be as bad as western medias describe, but it certainly is worse than those who live here know about.
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I'm an Asian studying in the United States now. And while I can understand where people like Ursurper are coming from, I'm afraid i don't accept their point of view.
What does "freedom of speech" in America mean? The right to protest? The right to bitch about the government? If that in itself makes you happy that's awesome, but unfortunately in America that doesnt amount to shit, it doesnt lead to any change. I come from Singapore, one of the more "authoritarian" countries in the eyes of the West. I can safely tell you I enjoy much more freedoms back home. Like the freedom to walk on the streets without fear of getting mugged. Like the freedom to go to a doctor and not have to pay indecent amounts of money in insurance and overheads. Like the freedom to take the bus or the train at any time of the day because workers don't go on strike for shits and giggles.
Protecting individual liberties is an ideal we should strive toward. But it cannot come at the expense of others. Imagine you have 2 people in your house, and one bathroom. You can have all the "freedom" you want. You can take long baths, you can bring a book when you take a dump, it doesnt matter. But when 10 people share one bathroom, rules have to be set. One person taking a long bath means 9 other people suffer. Taking away "freedoms" actually protects the individual.
You may not agree with me, and I can accept that. But you should also be able to accept that others may not agree with you, and that doesn't mean they are brainwashed. Many Chinese have lived, worked, and studied in the West. Many have also chosen to gone back. Think about what that means.
And you should really go visit China sometime. I promise you I see way more cops in America than in China. Freedom indeed.
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17068 Posts
Remember to keep debate civil in these types of threads.
Looking at you, Grumbaki and Usurper.
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On October 02 2010 12:02 bonedriven wrote:
The view that educated people in China are aware of the situation in China is wrong. The students in college began their brainwash procedure in elementary schools. The textbooks,TVs,newspapers are extremely effective since freedom of speech doesn't exist here. Your blogs with sensitive words are immediately deleted when found with help of GFW and other internet censor departments. The people that are more aware of the situation are still a minority. If you are not scorned when giving your "childish", "cynical","negative" comments on the government, you'll be called a traitor for not loving your own government.
China may not be as bad as western medias describe, but it certainly is worse than those who live here know about.
Uh, not really. There are problems for sure, but most of those comes from the capitalism and massive economic growth in the past 20 years.
Also another thing, Chinese people in general and historically aren't exactly open critics of the ruling state until said ruling state is about to become history. You think that passive aggressive nature came about suddenly.
And that last statement, welcome to America, see how far you go if you start criticizing the basic institutions of the USA. There's a difference between these are problems that the government should handle and the government is the problem, that line gets blurred so much here.
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On October 02 2010 12:35 liepzig wrote:
I'm an Asian studying in the United States now. And while I can understand where people like Ursurper are coming from, I'm afraid i don't accept their point of view.
What does "freedom of speech" in America mean? The right to protest? The right to bitch about the government? If that in itself makes you happy that's awesome, but unfortunately in America that doesnt amount to shit, it doesnt lead to any change. I come from Singapore, one of the more "authoritarian" countries in the eyes of the West. I can safely tell you I enjoy much more freedoms back home. Like the freedom to walk on the streets without fear of getting mugged. Like the freedom to go to a doctor and not have to pay indecent amounts of money in insurance and overheads. Like the freedom to take the bus or the train at any time of the day because workers don't go on strike for shits and giggles.
Protecting individual liberties is an ideal we should strive toward. But it cannot come at the expense of others. Imagine you have 2 people in your house, and one bathroom. You can have all the "freedom" you want. You can take long baths, you can bring a book when you take a dump, it doesnt matter. But when 10 people share one bathroom, rules have to be set. One person taking a long bath means 9 other people suffer. Taking away "freedoms" actually protects the individual.
You may not agree with me, and I can accept that. But you should also be able to accept that others may not agree with you, and that doesn't mean they are brainwashed. Many Chinese have lived, worked, and studied in the West. Many have also chosen to gone back. Think about what that means.
And you should really go visit China sometime. I promise you I see way more cops in America than in China. Freedom indeed.
None here has problem with accepting that different people have different views. We are on a forum, so thats for granted. But hell, none is putting a gun next to your head in order to extort your opinion - meaning, it is not mandatory to share your views.... But if you DO share them - back them up with some arguments that have logical vibe in them. I find it insulting that you wanna use metaphors of a household and bathroom. The guy previously used an example with a bunch of savage idiots murdering man based on a SMS.
Now you just have to understand how this: "Taking away "freedoms" actually protects the individual." is so wrong and preface to EVERY totalitarian regime that has ever hurt humanity big time. I am appalled that i gotta explain why this is wrong to any young mind. I mean i would totally get the opposition if i was debating with 70 year old African Warmonger of a Dictator. I would be stirring his sick shit right?
P.S. I can't visit China. I wear chains and sometimes there is a "westerners" flag on some of my t-shirts. Too risky.
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Haha, you can't visit China because you wear chains and clothes with flags on it? I see Chinese people and foreigners alike wearing flags and shirts from other nations all the time. Nobody's going to bat an eye at your chains when there are people like this going around.
Also, how do you define freedom of speech? I'm in China at the moment, and to be honest I don't really feel restricted in speech. I'm of course not allowed to go out on the street and protest against the government, but it's not as though I'd ever feel the urge to do that in the US either. Things aren't as bad here as people like you (who incidentally have never been to China) make it out to be.
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On October 02 2010 12:35 liepzig wrote:
I'm an Asian studying in the United States now. And while I can understand where people like Ursurper are coming from, I'm afraid i don't accept their point of view.
What does "freedom of speech" in America mean? The right to protest? The right to bitch about the government? If that in itself makes you happy that's awesome, but unfortunately in America that doesnt amount to shit, it doesnt lead to any change. I come from Singapore, one of the more "authoritarian" countries in the eyes of the West. I can safely tell you I enjoy much more freedoms back home. Like the freedom to walk on the streets without fear of getting mugged. Like the freedom to go to a doctor and not have to pay indecent amounts of money in insurance and overheads. Like the freedom to take the bus or the train at any time of the day because workers don't go on strike for shits and giggles.
Protecting individual liberties is an ideal we should strive toward. But it cannot come at the expense of others. Imagine you have 2 people in your house, and one bathroom. You can have all the "freedom" you want. You can take long baths, you can bring a book when you take a dump, it doesnt matter. But when 10 people share one bathroom, rules have to be set. One person taking a long bath means 9 other people suffer. Taking away "freedoms" actually protects the individual.
You may not agree with me, and I can accept that. But you should also be able to accept that others may not agree with you, and that doesn't mean they are brainwashed. Many Chinese have lived, worked, and studied in the West. Many have also chosen to gone back. Think about what that means.
And you should really go visit China sometime. I promise you I see way more cops in America than in China. Freedom indeed.
This whole post is so disjointed.. and doesn't really make a point.
I don't know where you are in the US but I definitely don't feel scared when I walk around my neighborhood (and I live in an ALL black neighborhood in metro Atlanta as a skinny asian kid), I pay a small portion of my paycheck so I get pretty awesome coverage with a low yearly maximum out of pocket, and the workers here basically don't strike (the US is not France). You really shouldn't use hyperbole to make things out to be worse than they really are so you can make a point. I would suggest that you try to actually live in America rather than just study here before you judge as you are suggesting to people who haven't been to China.
Also, how did anything you write have any relevance to freedom of speech? Freedom of speech doesn't have anything to do with walking around without getting mugged or having efficient public transportation. Straight from wikipedia:
Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation, or both.
People get mugged in places with no freedom of speech and places with freedom of speech. Japan has freedom of speech and you would be safe walking the streets of Tokyo for sure. Maybe not so much in Russia. In China if you aren't rich in the city you probably can't afford costly medical treatments and just recently there was some news about factory workers striking in China. So not only are your examples not relevant to freedom of speech, they're not even good examples of how things are better in China vs US. That may be true for Singapore vs the US but Singapore is a tiny country which you really can't compare to the US. And what the hell does number of cops have to do with freedom? I haven't talked to a cop in years and even though I see them a lot they don't do anything to me. In fact, a lot of cops could increase "freedom" according to your definition if they are out there removing muggers from the street.
In the end I agree with your sentiment, that there might be different ways of governing that are effective and trying to impose one style of government on every country will not work, but I feel that you should argue your point better. Poorly constructed arguments just make your "side" look bad.
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As an Aussie Chinese who have lived in both China & Australia over the past 20 years i have to agree with the guy from Singapore. the reason myself & many others that i know choose to live or holiday in china was actually because there was guess what "more PERSONAL LIBERTY & FREEDOM", yes more individual & personal freedom, freedom which actually matters.
All the supermarkets open at 6am and close at midnight, i can go out at night without worrying about getting mugged or getting shot. Theres hardly ever cops on the streets because people are generally just well-behaved model citizens. Now im not saying china's perfect, internal corruption within the communist government is definitely worse than the states and poverty still affects a large part of china. but, considering the population of china the current regime & jurisdictions may well be the best suited. Furthermore, considering the state of china say 30years, its definitely drastically improved more so than any other developing nation.
At the end of the day, the only ones bitching about lack of human rights & freedom of speech are the ones brainwashed by western media, i have friends & family in China and they are all content with their life's. as a matter of fact, my grandparents who are war-vets gets a premium for their healthcare & social wel-fare so how can they not love the government?
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I'm a little saddened by the awful ignorances still posted by some in this thread. I'd advise just ignoring the obvious trolls or people who have no clue on what they're talking about as without their attempted mucking up of thread, it's actually a great source of information and debate (a true rarity on the general forums and in a China based thread nonetheless). You have to realize, when it comes to the uneducated, there are those who simply do not wish to learn, debate or discuss anything. Their only view point is that they're right and there's nothing else for them to learn about it. Their very ignorance is their weapon and there's nothing to be gained from talking to them.
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Classy China.
Anyway the NPP is just a political tool now adays. I mean Al Gore.... really??
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There is more freedom of speech on China, then there are are on tl.net. The mods on tl.net makes the Chinese secret police look unemployed.
Serious.
User was temp banned for this post.
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@ Kisslbade
Great advice. I just took a step back and realized haters gonna hate. No point arguing with trolls.
@ Zeal
I agree that my post lacked any "point". So let me try again.
First point, safety. Every month, there is at least one robbery/shooting near my school (in Durham, NC). I have never been mugged, but generally, when you walk around town at night, you have to be extremely wary of your surroundings, because there is a distinct possibility that someone could come up to you, point a gun in your face, and take your money. Back in Singapore, I have never had to deal with fear like that. I was simply trying to bring up the point that being able to walk around without fear back home was a huge "freedom" to me, a "freedom" that I don't experience in America.
Second point. I feel it's a misconception that America is more "free" than China. Yes, you guys can vote. But what do you vote for? Two ineffectual parties that will eventually decide how much taxes you pay anyway. Do you really think you have any effect at all on the government? Not unless you decide to be a politician, or if you come from a rich family. I don't see how that is different from China. You have the "freedom" to bear arms and burn the Koran, but not the freedom to smoke weed, drink alcohol (below 21), or be hispanic in Arizona? At the end of the day, the average American citizen has to obey the American government, pay taxes, and obey American laws. Guess what, it's the same deal in China, and anywhere else in the world. To me, (and this is definitely my personal, subjective opinion), American freedom is very much a facade.
Look at what freedom of speech has done to your new networks. Fox news and MSNBC. They are like modern day versions of Soviet Propaganda. Democracy good, Communism (and Right-wingers/liberal pot heads, depending on which network) bad. Capitalism good, unless Americans lose jobs, in which case it is everyone else's fault and we must stop free trade. It can't be our problem because we are America, the greatest country in the world. Real news networks like CNN and BBC have falling ratings, because no one wants to hear the real news anymore, they just want to hear what makes them feel good. But hey, that's your human right.
Third point. Democracy vs "Communism" is NOT a battle of good vs. evil. They are just two different roads to the same goal, which is more effective governance for the good of the people. I'm sorry you found my toilet analogy disenchanting; a friend told it to me and I thought it was pretty good, but I guess I didnt do a good job explaining it. Let's put it this way. When Mark Zuckerberg first started facebook, I'm pretty sure it was run like a democracy. Many small businesses are run like democracies. But do you think Microsoft and Apple are run "democratically"? I'm pretty sure the workers at Apple didn't vote Steve Jobs in as the big boss. Like China's military, the United States military isn't run like a democracy. Is it because democracy is bad? No! It just means that certain conditions call for different forms of governance and control. China isn't evil just because it doesn't follow America's way of doing things. It just means China and the US are 2 very different countries.
Last point. I hope you understand that I'm not taking sides. I chose to study in the US because I really do think the US is a great country. It's just that I feel some Americans (and apparently Macedonians) have very wrong perceptions of Asia (China especially), and that irritates me because they insist they know everything when they've never even been anywhere near Asia. Asians aren't stupid or brainwashed. In this age, a lot of us are free to live and work anywhere we want in the world. And a lot of us choose to stay in Asia/China because we prefer life over there. At least I've seen both "sides" with my own eyes. Have you?
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EPT
