People saying that Communism will automatically fall in China and other communist countries are probably joking.
They teach 3 year old children to praise and love their communist leaders. They teach 6 year old children to have complete belief to the communist party and their leaders. They teach 12 year old children to fear police and the ones in power, and to perceive democracy as a stupid idea. They change facts in history/philosophy textbook to suit whatever they want. They told their people to value money above freedom, and yet they are the ones who have money, that means they are the ones who control people's mind.
Seriously it is now impossible to bring them down, unless a very severe economic disaster happens to them, or a war. But yeah, since the world could change so much in a very short time, this can happen, but not automatically.
i was born and raised in china and i have never experienced any of these thoughts when i was 3,6 or 12.. i would love to hear your justification on why or how you perceive this to be true
From Vietnamese education system. They follow the exact same routine in china so it cannot be too different.
And honestly, you were not taught to sing songs praising chairman Mao and the party when your 3 or 6 ? In school you were not taught to believe the party and their leaders etc ... "the party has its faults but let's believe them" ? In university you were not forced to learn Party History or Marx philosophy to have your diploma ?
If you are pro-communism there is nothing to say because you view those things as "natural things" to learn, but for a general computer technie like me it sucks to learn them.
Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I feel like the sentiments in this thread can be boiled down to a fundamental disagreement between the importance of maximal civil liberties versus maximal assurance/comfort/safety. Now we can attempt to debate practicalities, but this conversation is ultimately theoretical unless we are going to pull out the statistics of how each populace is doing, which I have no idea about and don't care to do.
If you believe that people are not prone towards taking care of one another in the natural state and that without rule or law, we would inevitably devolve in a series of tribal turf wars, then stricter law in exchange for less fear of bodily harm may seem most reasonable.
If you, however, believe people are capable of taking care of one another without the incentive of avoiding punishment and 'justice', that they appropriately will balance their own desires with those of the people around them, choosing more freedom seems fair.
Personally, I believe ownership is a flawed concept and if that were eliminated, no one could be mugged or would have "their" house broken into, blah blah blah. Also, being so poor that most people who might rob me probably have more money and stuff than I, I could really care less about most threats of crime. Having been mugged multiple times, stabbed once, and come through the other side... Meh, shit's overrated.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
You basically, subliminally, insult him. Saying that someone is brain-washed is just like saying, that he is not able think for himself. Not at all, while saying that "I'm right, and he's wrong, because he is not able to think for himself. Not a fine way to talk with each other. Even when he doesn't agree with you, you should at least be able to respect other people opinions.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
You seriously think that 21st century China is like what you picture?
A lot has changed since the Cultural Revolution. True, some schools probably have a picture of Chairman Mao hanging in the classrooms. Maybe some songs are still sung that have some Communist side to them. But nothing even close to the scale of brainwashing is occurring as far as I know. I don't think there is a mandatory political course.
The Communist government here survives by hiding its nasty sides. I'll bet a lot of common people or the poor/uneducated don't know a whole lot about the government corruption or don't know exactly how to deal with it. They hide the truth, but don't use "those tricks" to make people love them.
On October 02 2010 16:15 Kobepeng wrote: As an Aussie Chinese who have lived in both China & Australia over the past 20 years i have to agree with the guy from Singapore. the reason myself & many others that i know choose to live or holiday in china was actually because there was guess what "more PERSONAL LIBERTY & FREEDOM", yes more individual & personal freedom, freedom which actually matters.
All the supermarkets open at 6am and close at midnight, i can go out at night without worrying about getting mugged or getting shot. Theres hardly ever cops on the streets because people are generally just well-behaved model citizens. Now im not saying china's perfect, internal corruption within the communist government is definitely worse than the states and poverty still affects a large part of china. but, considering the population of china the current regime & jurisdictions may well be the best suited. Furthermore, considering the state of china say 30years, its definitely drastically improved more so than any other developing nation.
At the end of the day, the only ones bitching about lack of human rights & freedom of speech are the ones brainwashed by western media, i have friends & family in China and they are all content with their life's. as a matter of fact, my grandparents who are war-vets gets a premium for their healthcare & social wel-fare so how can they not love the government?
I feel the need to respond to this post as this represents your typical "I'm fine therefore the country is doing fine" view from all the Chinese defenders in this thread.
Kobepeng, I'm assuming that you never visited Dongbei in the late nineties or present day Shanxi. Let me just give you a brief overview of what happened, Dongbei was a industrial hub before the national privatization and millions of urban factory workers were laid off. Guess what happened? Crimes, corruption, gangs you name them.
No robbery on the street? Are you kidding me? The women that lived next door to my grandparents got her finger chopped off on the STREET in broad day light and you know why? so because some unemployed guy can steal her wedding ring and you are sitting there telling me everything is fine because your grand parents are war veterans :/, how about I tell you stories of war veterans hat had their house paved away so some rich princeling can build the next mall.
My girlfriend's family lives in Shanxi, a province famous for their vinegar but more famous for their coal production. What's the most often thing you hear from there, that's right, peasants and under aged kids being forced to work as slaves in the coal mines.
You see, everything is not fine, for every one of your stories about safety and personal "freedom" I can name 100s more stories of the opposite. So please stop using anecdotal evidences in your argument.
The state gives and the state can take it away and most Chinese posters in this thread refuse to acknowledge this as they themselves have never being hard done by the government.
The flaws and disease of the country is systematic and without action being taken, it will only reduce itself to another dynastic failure just like the regimes before it. I personally find that not acceptable in this day and age.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
You seriously think that 21st century China is like what you picture?
A lot has changed since the Cultural Revolution. True, some schools probably have a picture of Chairman Mao hanging in the classrooms. Maybe some songs are still sung that have some Communist side to them. But nothing even close to the scale of brainwashing is occurring as far as I know. I don't think there is a mandatory political course.
The Communist government here survives by hiding its nasty sides. I'll bet a lot of common people or the poor/uneducated don't know a whole lot about the government corruption or don't know exactly how to deal with it. They hide the truth, but don't use "those tricks" to make people love them.
No, the trick of the party is to offer the elites and educated of the country jobs with the best security and benefits in the country => a member of the party and a role in the government.
Why do you need anything else when you've bribed the only group of people who can lift a finger against your wrong doings.
You basically, subliminally, insult him. Saying that someone is brain-washed is just like saying, that he is not able think for himself. Not at all, while saying that "I'm right, and he's wrong, because he is not able to think for himself. Not a fine way to talk with each other. Even when he doesn't agree with you, you should at least be able to respect other people opinions.
Never said or imply that he is brainwashed. Even if a person must endure those "tricks" in school, that never means that he is brainwashed, especially when he has an internet connection and know some English (example ? me). I was just asking if they still use "tricks" to force those ideas into children heads, and yes, asking, not stating. And he gave no goddamn opinion, he just stated that they don't do it in their education system as a fact, so I want confirmation that they don't do such action A, action B, action C, how did I not respect his opinion when both I and him gave no opinion ?
You basically, subliminally, insult him. Saying that someone is brain-washed is just like saying, that he is not able think for himself. Not at all, while saying that "I'm right, and he's wrong, because he is not able to think for himself. Not a fine way to talk with each other. Even when he doesn't agree with you, you should at least be able to respect other people opinions.
Never said or imply that he is brainwashed. Even if a person must endure those "tricks" in school, that never means that he is brainwashed, especially when he has an internet connection and know some English (example ? me). I was just asking if they still use "tricks" to force those ideas into children heads, and yes, asking, not stating. And he gave no goddamn opinion, he just stated that they don't do it in their education system as a fact, so I want confirmation that they don't do such action A, action B, action C, how did I not respect his opinion when both I and him gave no opinion ?
The 'tricks' in Chinese schools are no more extreme then the pledge of allegiance or singing the national anthem.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
Well, since everyone else seems to be responding to you, I'll bite.
No I wasn't taught most of what you said (aside from party history and Marx because that's history ... ) but you seem to demonstrating some brainwashing in your education system yourself though.
We were taught the national anthem but I guess that's what you mean by "tricks".
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
Well, since everyone else seems to be responding to you, I'll bite.
No I wasn't taught most of what you said (aside from party history and Marx because that's history ... ) but you seem to demonstrating some brainwashing in your education system yourself though.
We were taught the national anthem but I guess that's what you mean by "tricks".
Not to mention that the French national anthem is quiet a violent one
From my personal experience, I do remember I wore wear a red scarf and there was some party stories that were told about party member/idols such as Lei Feng, which enforced the ideology of selfness, hard-work and general good deeds.
Gees they brainwashed me good! I regret having given to any charity and to help out strangers.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
Well, since everyone else seems to be responding to you, I'll bite.
No I wasn't taught most of what you said (aside from party history and Marx because that's history ... ) but you seem to demonstrating some brainwashing in your education system yourself though.
We were taught the national anthem but I guess that's what you mean by "tricks".
Not to mention that the French national anthem is quiet a violent one
From my personal experience, I do remember I wore wear a red scarf and there was some party stories that were told about party member/idols such as Lei Feng, which enforced the ideology of selfness, hard-work and general good deeds.
Gees they brainwashed me good! I regret having given to any charity and to help out strangers.
Well I didn't intend to stray the topic off by stating some of the oddities of French nationalism. (As I said, common troll tactic is just to simply shift point of argument so why give it to them) I should say, there is a liberal dose of history in childhood stories simply because Chinese history is so extensive. However, the prevailing theme had always been a theme about being a good person a la Confucian principles, despite whether it be Zhuge Liang's exploits against Cao Cao (even though I hated him and Liu Bei when I actually read the RoTK) or more modern stories. One can argue they're "tricks" but that's like saying Aesop's fables were taught at a young age to brainwash you into learning about moralistic behavior in society ...
Come live in China for a decade and then speak for your own behalf.
The Chinese population are not a bunch of brainwashed zombies, we're people just like you, we enjoy gaming and leisure just like you, and in the weekends we got out and have a beer just like you. The difference is that we know the current Chinese government isn't run by a bunch of idiots and for obvious reasons such as the fact that it is their own country, are not out to destroy the world's economy and wreck havoc in the political spectrum. Some of us actually enjoy the pleasures of life itself such as a sunny day or a late night with friends.
So far, China is developing in an acceptable rate socially, and with many more obstacles to overcome, you have to give time and a bit of trust. And if you come and live here and you've walked in our shoes for a while, you'll realize that politics isn't something that we discuss and thrive on whenever we have free time, and maybe its good for some people who take very strong stances in the US (or other parts of the world) to take a bit of time off it as well. Because one thing is for certain, posting rants about a country's government on Team Liquid isn't going to make China take back what they said. So guys, please keep the flame war down as this thread isn't going anywhere at this rate.
You basically, subliminally, insult him. Saying that someone is brain-washed is just like saying, that he is not able think for himself. Not at all, while saying that "I'm right, and he's wrong, because he is not able to think for himself. Not a fine way to talk with each other. Even when he doesn't agree with you, you should at least be able to respect other people opinions.
Never said or imply that he is brainwashed. Even if a person must endure those "tricks" in school, that never means that he is brainwashed, especially when he has an internet connection and know some English (example ? me). I was just asking if they still use "tricks" to force those ideas into children heads, and yes, asking, not stating. And he gave no goddamn opinion, he just stated that they don't do it in their education system as a fact, so I want confirmation that they don't do such action A, action B, action C, how did I not respect his opinion when both I and him gave no opinion ?
The 'tricks' in Chinese schools are no more extreme then the pledge of allegiance or singing the national anthem.
Does China even still have some sort of pledge of allegiance? I remember hearing about some long live Mao and study hard recital, but didn't that die with Mao?
Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought the Pledge of Allegiance was rather crass.
People don't know China. One part is capitalistic, the other part, the greater part, socialist. Usually people are afraid of having all their hard earned money taken away and given for social issues they think are not even that effective or important. Here it is the other way around. China works 90% of its work force, in hard labor, or sells it out, and the other 10%, the capitalist side benefits. So if you go to China, you probably are seeing the nicer 10%. You probably won't see their crimes against Tibet. You probably won't see the socialist difficult conditions of the average worker. You also probably won't see or feel the strict censorship and control of peoples thoughts and ideas about the country.
Also if you know someone from China, they are also probably from that 10%. Doesn't make them a bad person in any way at all, but it is just another thing to take into account when you judge China.
On October 02 2010 18:32 whatusername wrote: Ummmm... unless you've actually been to a public chinese school I don't think you should be running your mouth about this. Chinese school is nothing like this and many of the chinese kids I've met seem perfectly normal not brainwashed at all
I'm sorry to drag it a bit but just curious now, you REALLY weren't taught to believe the party and the current political system in any form during school ? You did not need to learn something about party history or marx (or maoist) philosophy in university or high school to have your diploma ? And songs praising the party (or leader or the military) weren't taught when you were in maternal school and elementary school ?
This is pure curiosity I have nothing against your people. For a long time I thought that those things are mandatory for you guys since the Vietnamese learned those tricks from the Chinese so it's a little weird that your government didn't do it ? Or it is changed now ? Check the time period 1990-2005 you weren't using them ? If so how did they make people believe in them when it is obvious that they (communist party members and their associates) are the ones who benefit the most from the system and others either benefit least or don't benefit at all or suffer from it ? If you took the big share of the cake the others should hate you right, how the hell can they make people love them if they didn't use those tricks.
You seriously think that 21st century China is like what you picture?
A lot has changed since the Cultural Revolution. True, some schools probably have a picture of Chairman Mao hanging in the classrooms. Maybe some songs are still sung that have some Communist side to them. But nothing even close to the scale of brainwashing is occurring as far as I know. I don't think there is a mandatory political course.
The Communist government here survives by hiding its nasty sides. I'll bet a lot of common people or the poor/uneducated don't know a whole lot about the government corruption or don't know exactly how to deal with it. They hide the truth, but don't use "those tricks" to make people love them.
No, the trick of the party is to offer the elites and educated of the country jobs with the best security and benefits in the country => a member of the party and a role in the government.
Why do you need anything else when you've bribed the only group of people who can lift a finger against your wrong doings.
That is true. The party have been incorporating the elite entrepreneur into their party, even it was impossible to think about twenty years ago. They are bounded together. For those who live in a wealthy and powerful family they almost certainly have something related to this system. They defend the system in order to keep them clean. While some of the government official want to make changes, it is too hard. Not only the entire bureaucracy system but the society as a whole.
I applaud to those who fight for their freedom although I don't find an easy solution for the current social and economical problem in China.
Your allegiance is implied when you are of Chinese descent (and in most cases, this means that you are a Han). Its not like there is a huge amounts of immigrants converting to Chinese citizenship so...
On October 02 2010 22:06 Qwertify wrote: People don't know China. One part is capitalistic, the other part, the greater part, socialist. Usually people are afraid of having all their hard earned money taken away and given for social issues they think are not even that effective or important. Here it is the other way around. China works 90% of its work force, in hard labor, or sells it out, and the other 10%, the capitalist side benefits. So if you go to China, you probably are seeing the nicer 10%. You probably won't see their crimes against Tibet. You probably won't see the socialist difficult conditions of the average worker. You also probably won't see or feel the strict censorship and control of peoples thoughts and ideas about the country.
Also if you know someone from China, they are also probably from that 10%. Doesn't make them a bad person in any way at all, but it is just another thing to take into account when you judge China.
Do you have anything to back this up? You say that people don't know China, so why should I believe that you understand the country?
EPT
