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He was raising a point and crucifying him for doing that is wrong. This isn't even about freedom of speech, its about the fact that the communist party refuse to hear anyone except themselves.
The implementation of his political agendas is not up to him and I very much doubt anyone will really advocate a Western style democracy but a more transparent and systematic political system is what China desperately needs and this is something that the communist party struggle to implement as too many princelings and powers benefit from the existing arrangement.
The existence of such charter is still needed even if to raise awareness which is something that is horrifyingly lacking in Chinese psyche.
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On October 01 2010 09:32 haduken wrote:
He was raising a point and crucifying him for doing that is wrong. This isn't even about freedom of speech, its about the fact that the communist party refuse to hear anyone except themselves.
The implementation of his political agendas is not up to him and I very much doubt anyone will really advocate a Western style democracy but a more transparent and systematic political system is what China desperately needs and this is something that the communist party struggle to implement as too many princelings and powers benefit from the existing arrangement.
The existence of such charter is still needed even if to raise awareness which is something that is horrifyingly lacking in Chinese psyche.
everyone in China is keenly aware of the structural problems with the gov.
China doesn't need ppl raising awareness with inflammatory messages. China needs ppl with solution to problems and the skills to implement them. the charter failed to acknowledge this and threatens to destroy the work that is underway.
he was not jailed for criticizing the gov, he was jailed for his efforts to overthrow the gov.
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On October 01 2010 09:32 haduken wrote:
He was raising a point and crucifying him for doing that is wrong. This isn't even about freedom of speech, its about the fact that the communist party refuse to hear anyone except themselves.
The implementation of his political agendas is not up to him and I very much doubt anyone will really advocate a Western style democracy but a more transparent and systematic political system is what China desperately needs and this is something that the communist party struggle to implement as too many princelings and powers benefit from the existing arrangement.
The existence of such charter is still needed even if to raise awareness which is something that is horrifyingly lacking in Chinese psyche.
It's one thing to start shit just to start shit; it's another thing to actually propose a solution and implement it.
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It's cool to see that Westerners that actually live in China have some very true opinions compare to those that may never been to China.
As many people stated at previous posts. China is not ready for democracy, if somehow someone manage to bring democracy into China it will just make China fall apart.
Democracy is good if its established on a firm foundation otherwise just look at Thailand, India etc... Half ass democracy is the way to slow down your country's economic advance and bring unrest into the country.
I think many westerns govs and people will just want the whole world to be democracy and dont even care about the outcome of it. Some countries will be better with democracy but many will not.
One party rule is great for economic development. A good example is Korea.
The nowadays rich and developed Korea was build up by a single party government lead by the military until 1987, at that time Korea had already become a developed countries with companies like Samsung, LG emerges to the whole world.
About the Nobel peace prize: Award a price to a person who oppose a international recognized government is just wrong no matter what he did. If China was North Korea or Burma, ok, someone that try to break the rule of a military junta may be awarded a Nobel Peace prize.
But China is nothing like NK or Burma.
Its just like in 1972 Henry Kissinger was award a Nobel while a bloody war is still going on and he was somewhat a architecture of it. Note that Kissinger and the Vietnamese Le Duc Tho were both award the Nobel prize but Le Duc Tho denied it since the war was far from over at that time.
The Nobel Peace Prize has lost its momentum long ago, I hope that the committee dont do something that could be view like they are doing it based on a Western agenda... Really award the prize to Liu Xiao Bo is just wrong, very wrong.
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You know, political things aside, I really don't know how Nobel is determining who gets these things.
Obama gets one before he does anything (ok I'm not going into how good Obama is). This guy gets one just for calling for democracy? When they got their prizes there was absolutely nothing they had actually accomplished. Maybe if Obama changed the USA and did a lot of good, then they give the prize to him. When Communism falls in China and democracy comes in and everyone is happy, then give to prize to Liu Xiaobo.
Western countries don't need to be actively trying to input democracy into China. Communism is falling down by itself. There's government corruption, widening gap between rich and poor, tons of social issues in the country, etc.
I've heard a lot of educated people in China talk about desperately needed reforms, or possibly even some revolution-type event happening in the next few decades.
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On October 01 2010 12:23 Loanshark wrote:
You know, political things aside, I really don't know how Nobel is determining who gets these things.
Obama gets one before he does anything (ok I'm not going into how good Obama is). This guy gets one just for calling for democracy? When they got their prizes there was absolutely nothing they had actually accomplished. Maybe if Obama changed the USA and did a lot of good, then they give the prize to him. When Communism falls in China and democracy comes in and everyone is happy, then give to prize to Liu Xiaobo.
Western countries don't need to be actively trying to input democracy into China. Communism is falling down by itself. There's government corruption, widening gap between rich and poor, tons of social issues in the country, etc.
I've heard a lot of educated people in China talk about desperately needed reforms, or possibly even some revolution-type event happening in the next few decades.
Agreed, no need for democracy injection. When the time comes Communism will be replaced with something people really want!
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On October 01 2010 12:35 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 12:23 Loanshark wrote:
You know, political things aside, I really don't know how Nobel is determining who gets these things.
Obama gets one before he does anything (ok I'm not going into how good Obama is). This guy gets one just for calling for democracy? When they got their prizes there was absolutely nothing they had actually accomplished. Maybe if Obama changed the USA and did a lot of good, then they give the prize to him. When Communism falls in China and democracy comes in and everyone is happy, then give to prize to Liu Xiaobo.
Western countries don't need to be actively trying to input democracy into China. Communism is falling down by itself. There's government corruption, widening gap between rich and poor, tons of social issues in the country, etc.
I've heard a lot of educated people in China talk about desperately needed reforms, or possibly even some revolution-type event happening in the next few decades. Agreed, no need for democracy injection. When the time comes Communism will be replaced with something people really want!
People saying that Communism will automatically fall in China and other communist countries are probably joking.
They teach 3 year old children to praise and love their communist leaders.
They teach 6 year old children to have complete belief to the communist party and their leaders.
They teach 12 year old children to fear police and the ones in power, and to perceive democracy as a stupid idea.
They change facts in history/philosophy textbook to suit whatever they want.
They told their people to value money above freedom, and yet they are the ones who have money, that means they are the ones who control people's mind.
Seriously it is now impossible to bring them down, unless a very severe economic disaster happens to them, or a war.
But yeah, since the world could change so much in a very short time, this can happen, but not automatically.
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On October 01 2010 22:28 mimikami wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 12:35 Caphe wrote:On October 01 2010 12:23 Loanshark wrote:
You know, political things aside, I really don't know how Nobel is determining who gets these things.
Obama gets one before he does anything (ok I'm not going into how good Obama is). This guy gets one just for calling for democracy? When they got their prizes there was absolutely nothing they had actually accomplished. Maybe if Obama changed the USA and did a lot of good, then they give the prize to him. When Communism falls in China and democracy comes in and everyone is happy, then give to prize to Liu Xiaobo.
Western countries don't need to be actively trying to input democracy into China. Communism is falling down by itself. There's government corruption, widening gap between rich and poor, tons of social issues in the country, etc.
I've heard a lot of educated people in China talk about desperately needed reforms, or possibly even some revolution-type event happening in the next few decades. Agreed, no need for democracy injection. When the time comes Communism will be replaced with something people really want! People saying that Communism will automatically fall in China and other communist countries are probably joking. They teach 3 year old children to praise and love their communist leaders. They teach 6 year old children to have complete belief to the communist party and their leaders. They teach 12 year old children to fear police and the ones in power, and to perceive democracy as a stupid idea. They change facts in history/philosophy textbook to suit whatever they want. They told their people to value money above freedom, and yet they are the ones who have money, that means they are the ones who control people's mind. Seriously it is now impossible to bring them down, unless a very severe economic disaster happens to them, or a war. But yeah, since the world could change so much in a very short time, this can happen, but not automatically.
It'll fall just like dynasties have fallen. It's not like China hasn't done this before; it's history is full of cyclic changes in rule. And slow down on the indoctrination, it's there, but it really isn't any different in concept than you pledging allegiance to your respective country. Nobody's out there carrying their 10 reasons for loving Chairman Mao or any of the other past leaders since the PRC came into existence. There are lots of people who support the government but demand changes (like regulation of the housing market or education reform), somehow that gets perverted into something more by foreign press.
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On September 29 2010 07:03 hifriend wrote:
The nobel peace prize lost all its credibility when it was awarded to a man who's currently president of a nation fighting two wars (of aggression).
He was elected into office during those two wars, which his predecessor started. He also campaigned on the premise of ending those wars, which is why he was awarded the prize in the first place. Furthermore, there are 50,000 U.S. troops presently in Iraq, compared to the 130,000 when he took office. He also acknowledged the controversy surrounding the decision to award it to him, and even stated he would try to live up to what the prize represents.
International prizes, sports, relations, etc will always be politicized, and preemptively awarding Obama the prize was clearly an attempt to influence his present/future policies. It doesn't "lose all its credibility" as you so ridiculously put it.
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Nobel price of cheese: Arafat, LeDucTo, Perez, Kissinger, Gore and Obama.
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On October 02 2010 01:16 Perkins1752 wrote:
Nobel price of cheese: Arafat, LeDucTo, Perez, Kissinger, Gore and Obama.
Its Le Duc Tho not LeDucto and he rejected the prize. One of two people that ever reject a Nobel Prize.
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On October 01 2010 22:28 mimikami wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 12:35 Caphe wrote:On October 01 2010 12:23 Loanshark wrote:
You know, political things aside, I really don't know how Nobel is determining who gets these things.
Obama gets one before he does anything (ok I'm not going into how good Obama is). This guy gets one just for calling for democracy? When they got their prizes there was absolutely nothing they had actually accomplished. Maybe if Obama changed the USA and did a lot of good, then they give the prize to him. When Communism falls in China and democracy comes in and everyone is happy, then give to prize to Liu Xiaobo.
Western countries don't need to be actively trying to input democracy into China. Communism is falling down by itself. There's government corruption, widening gap between rich and poor, tons of social issues in the country, etc.
I've heard a lot of educated people in China talk about desperately needed reforms, or possibly even some revolution-type event happening in the next few decades. Agreed, no need for democracy injection. When the time comes Communism will be replaced with something people really want! People saying that Communism will automatically fall in China and other communist countries are probably joking. They teach 3 year old children to praise and love their communist leaders. They teach 6 year old children to have complete belief to the communist party and their leaders. They teach 12 year old children to fear police and the ones in power, and to perceive democracy as a stupid idea. They change facts in history/philosophy textbook to suit whatever they want. They told their people to value money above freedom, and yet they are the ones who have money, that means they are the ones who control people's mind. Seriously it is now impossible to bring them down, unless a very severe economic disaster happens to them, or a war. But yeah, since the world could change so much in a very short time, this can happen, but not automatically.
Lets not talk about the Chinese education system unless you've actually experienced it please.
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On October 01 2010 22:28 mimikami wrote:
People saying that Communism will automatically fall in China and other communist countries are probably joking.
They teach 3 year old children to praise and love their communist leaders.
They teach 6 year old children to have complete belief to the communist party and their leaders.
They teach 12 year old children to fear police and the ones in power, and to perceive democracy as a stupid idea.
They change facts in history/philosophy textbook to suit whatever they want.
They told their people to value money above freedom, and yet they are the ones who have money, that means they are the ones who control people's mind.
Seriously it is now impossible to bring them down, unless a very severe economic disaster happens to them, or a war.
But yeah, since the world could change so much in a very short time, this can happen, but not automatically.
i was born and raised in china and i have never experienced any of these thoughts when i was 3,6 or 12.. i would love to hear your justification on why or how you perceive this to be true
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How can you NOT take freedom of press/speech for granted in 21st Century? The audacity to even do it like that and "reason" it out as bad, makes my blood to boil! I can't wait for the fall of the Chinese government.
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Why is everyone advocating Democracy? At it's best Democracy is mob rule. I hate Democracy. It's an overused word propagated by Liberals who don't care about individual liberties. Proponents of Democracy are group thinkers and would do anything to satisfy the will of the majority, Even if it takes away the rights of minorities, who don't have the voting power of a ruling majority.
If China wants to advance Individual liberties, China should follow America's model of being a Constitutional Republic. Not a Democracy. If China becomes a full blown democracy the minorities in that country will go into full revolt. The Huge minorities of China will never tolerate being ruled by the Han majority via full blown Democracy.
If America becomes a full blown Democracy instead of a Consitutional Republic, this whole country would be thrown into another civil war. As a minority, I fear majority rule. An old saying goes: "Majority Rules is Minority Ruled."
I prefer living in a Constitutional Republic where my rights are guranteed by a Consitution. And where my rights are inherent because I am an individual, not because I belong to a voting majority. I do not want my rights to be entirely dependant on the swinging emotions of the voting majority. That has always been a recipe for disaster.
Democracy is and always has been a load of crap.
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On October 02 2010 02:52 deadbutmoving wrote:
Why is everyone advocating Democracy? At it's best Democracy is mob rule. I hate Democracy. It's an overused word propagated by Liberals who don't care about individual liberties. Proponents of Democracy are group thinkers and would do anything to satisfy the will of the majority, Even if it takes away the rights of minorities, who don't have the voting power of a ruling majority.
If China wants to advance Individual liberties, China should follow America's model of being a Constitutional Republic. Not a Democracy. If China becomes a full blown democracy the minorities in that country will go into full revolt. The Huge minorities of China will never tolerate being ruled by the Han majority via full blown Democracy.
If America becomes a full blown Democracy instead of a Consitutional Republic, this whole country would be thrown into another civil war. As a minority, I fear majority rule. An old saying goes: "Majority Rules is Minority Ruled."
I prefer living in a Constitutional Republic where my rights are guranteed by a Consitution. And where my rights are inherent because I am an individual, not because I belong to a voting majority. I do not want my rights to be entirely dependant on the swinging emotions of the voting majority. That has always been a recipe for disaster.
Democracy is and always has been a load of crap.
In Democracy in the current form you AT LEAST have the illusion of freedom. Yes in Democracy shit load of silencing media/people happens, but it's done in hidden which leads that THAT behavior is NOT acceptable.Communism blatantly denies rights towards things that should be taken for granted. History will judge China as a oppressing backwards influence in our timeline.
P.S. I strongly dislike Democracy as well. Every mass of people that unites under WHATEVER banner is generally stupid, ignorant, inert, etc. I am strongly favoring the empowerment of individuals and shaping humanity as a pack of wolves, rather than herd of sheep. The thing is China can't go from this political establishment (big time oppressive), to a system more liberating than Westerners Democracy. And that's why we are "advocating" democracy.
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On October 02 2010 04:10 Usurper wrote:
In Democracy in the current form you AT LEAST have the illusion of freedom. Yes in Democracy shit load of silencing media/people happens, but it's done in hidden which leads that THAT behavior is NOT acceptable.Communism blatantly denies rights towards things that should be taken for granted. History will judge China as a oppressing backwards influence in our timeline.
P.S. I strongly dislike Democracy as well. Every mass of people that unites under WHATEVER banner is generally stupid, ignorant, inert, etc. I am strongly favoring the empowerment of individuals and shaping humanity as a pack of wolves, rather than herd of sheep. The thing is China can't go from this political establishment (big time oppressive), to a system more liberating than Westerners Democracy. And that's why we are "advocating" democracy.
Speak for yourself, America is not a Democracy, even though some people claim us to be. We are a Consitutional Republic. A growing number of us do not support Democracy and we will speak out against all who do.
Democracy is a word that has been mutated from it's original form by the left-wing media soo much, that now people even use the word Democracy synonymously with the word Liberty. By using the word Democracy synonymously with words like freedom or liberty, you make the false assumption that the rule of the majority will lead to freedom/liberty. This is the biggest lie and logical fallacy of the Western hemisphere. Democracy being pro freedom was always a lie, and those who propagate it are liars wheter they know it or not.
If you have studied history you will understand that "majority rules" has often lead to Facism, Monarchy, Nazism, Socialism, Communism, and even Genocide. But it's always genocide against Minorities NOT the Voting Majority. This is the ugly spirit of Democracy.
The only thing that has ever proven to protect human rights is a guarantee of liberty through an enforced Constitution. That is the only thing that has given the people in the West our freedoms and that is the only thing that will give the people of China their freedom. This mantra of "Democracy Now!" is a lie, logical fallacy, and detracts from the true progress for human individual liberty.
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On October deadbutmoving wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 04:10 Usurper wrote:
In Democracy in the current form you AT LEAST have the illusion of freedom. Yes in Democracy shit load of silencing media/people happens, but it's done in hidden which leads that THAT behavior is NOT acceptable.Communism blatantly denies rights towards things that should be taken for granted. History will judge China as a oppressing backwards influence in our timeline.
P.S. I strongly dislike Democracy as well. Every mass of people that unites under WHATEVER banner is generally stupid, ignorant, inert, etc. I am strongly favoring the empowerment of individuals and shaping humanity as a pack of wolves, rather than herd of sheep. The thing is China can't go from this political establishment (big time oppressive), to a system more liberating than Westerners Democracy. And that's why we are "advocating" democracy. Speak for yourself, America is not a Democracy, even though some people claim us to be. We are a Consitutional Republic. A growing number of us do not support Democracy and we will speak out against all who do. Democracy is a word that has been mutated from it's original form by the left-wing media soo much, that now people even use the word Democracy synonymously with the word Liberty. By using the word Democracy synonymously with words like freedom or liberty, you make the false assumption that the rule of the majority will lead to freedom/liberty. This is the biggest lie and logical fallacy of the Western hemisphere. Democracy being pro freedom was always a lie, and those who propagate it are liars wheter they know it or not. If you have studied history you will understand that "majority rules" has often lead to Facism, Monarchy, Nazism, Socialism, Communism, and even Genocide. But it's always genocide against Minorities NOT the Voting Majority. This is the ugly spirit of Democracy. The only thing that has ever proven to protect human rights is a guarantee of liberty through an enforced Constitution. That is the only thing that has given the people in the West our freedoms and that is the only thing that will give the people of China their freedom. This mantra of "Democracy Now!" is a lie, logical fallacy, and detracts from the true progress for human individual liberty. ´Oh no! Not socialism! The fact that you bunch up socialism with facism and nazis shows just how little you know about anything really.
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On October 02 2010 02:41 Usurper wrote:
How can you NOT take freedom of press/speech for granted in 21st Century? The audacity to even do it like that and "reason" it out as bad, makes my blood to boil! I can't wait for the fall of the Chinese government.
I'm sorry to answer that way but 99% chinese people reading your last sentence would answer the same way:
Seeing you're macedonian, don't you think a bit less freedom of speech press and better status on: crime rate, corruption, unemployment rate, poverty rate would be an immediate plus for the macedonian population?
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EPT
