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Personal attacks and off-topics arguments won't be tolerated. Report posters that break the rules, instead of responding to them. |
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 28 2010 10:13 wadadde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:00 motbob wrote:On September 28 2010 09:59 RiB wrote:
Things to account for when thinking about this story:
1) War's effects on the human psyche (isolation, fear of death, killing another human being)
2) The power of "chain of command"
3) Tangible objectives of war
So how's that spread of democracy going? It's going fine, thank you. We've achieved stability in Iraq and we think we can do the same in Afghanistan. I don't want to derail the thread here, but stability in Iraq existed before the billions (trillions) were spent on a war that resulted in the loss of more that 1 million Iraqi civilian lives. The US has left behind a culture of secret prisons and torture (or to put it nicer : it didn't put an end to the practice) and now the extent of the problem is coming to the surface. Stating that stability has been achieved in Iraq is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say? This remains to be seen. All that's certain is the extent of the damage and the scope of the violence.
The war in Iraq was badly botched for many years, leading to a powerful insurgency and thus hundreds of thousands of dead civilians. However, under the excellent leadership of Gen. Petraeus, stability is about where it would have been in around 2005, had the Pentagon leadership been even remotely competent in their post-war planning. Given the inherently divided nature of Iraq, my definition of "stability" is somewhat unfair... by that, I mean that I see the current level of violence as something that cannot be eliminated by any amount of good military practice. There is a "base" level of violence that we, the U.S., can't eliminate. True stability can only be achieved with a stable political framework in Iraq that persists for many years.
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On September 28 2010 10:15 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:13 wadadde wrote:On September 28 2010 10:00 motbob wrote:On September 28 2010 09:59 RiB wrote:
Things to account for when thinking about this story:
1) War's effects on the human psyche (isolation, fear of death, killing another human being)
2) The power of "chain of command"
3) Tangible objectives of war
So how's that spread of democracy going? It's going fine, thank you. We've achieved stability in Iraq and we think we can do the same in Afghanistan. I don't want to derail the thread here, but stability in Iraq existed before the billions (trillions) were spent on a war that resulted in the loss of more that 1 million Iraqi civilian lives. The US has left behind a culture of secret prisons and torture (or to put it nicer : it didn't put an end to the practice) and now the extent of the problem is coming to the surface. Stating that stability has been achieved in Iraq is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say? This remains to be seen. All that's certain is the extent of the damage and the scope of the violence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attackI completely disagree.
Well, you may disagree, but your link doesn't support your case. Please don't make me explain this.
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On September 28 2010 10:06 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:45 sikyon wrote:
Do you think the military is made up of people in the top 10% of their class in high school or the bottom 10%?
People are not nice. The world is not a nice place. Worse shit than this happens everywhere in the world. That doesn't make it excusable, but it happens. I am willing to tolerate, to a certain extent, a violation of my morals to ensure that I can keep on living my comfortable life.
Does valuing myself, my family, and my friends, and my countrymen over strangers make me a bad person? Possibly, but it doesn't bother me much as long as I just compartmentalize it. thats for making that generalization on bottom 10%. most of my family is in the army you ass, COMPLETELY uncalled for.
i'm in the army and what he's saying is pretty much accurate, the army definitely has a lot more people in the bottom 10% than the top 10%. i'm not saying that all soldiers are dumb or anything, but we definitely aren't the epitome of intelligence.
On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
My respect for MOST U.S. soldiers gets lower and lower every day"
lol... i like how you originally had your statement include all u.s. soldiers then you changed it to most. do you honestly think most soldiers are like this?
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On September 28 2010 10:21 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On September 28 2010 10:00 motbob wrote:On September 28 2010 09:59 RiB wrote:
Things to account for when thinking about this story:
1) War's effects on the human psyche (isolation, fear of death, killing another human being)
2) The power of "chain of command"
3) Tangible objectives of war
So how's that spread of democracy going? It's going fine, thank you. We've achieved stability in Iraq and we think we can do the same in Afghanistan. Debatable. I will laugh at anyone who says that Iraq is now a stable land because of US interference. Not only are we starting to pull out at a horrible time but we didn't even get rid of the threat. There are still people there who will try to take over once the US influence is gone.
As I said, the extremists are just biding their time. No occupying country in history has ever been able to "liberate and free/control and exploit/root out and annihilate" the Middle east as the occupying country had intended. Violence has always been going on in the Middle East, albeit controlled by charismatic warlords (some "good" some "evil", each with their own ethics etc.), ruling dictators, and the governments (albeit unstable). The people there are both tired and used to war. Of course, pulling out has it's ramifications, but so was being there in there in the first place.
Back on topic, again the best thing to do is to sit down with the elders of the community who had it's civilians killed and discuss and reach an agreement for the dishonor we have dealt them. (Is it a Jurga? I forget the term.)
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On September 28 2010 10:18 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:54 Fa1nT wrote:
Uh... people are bad..?
I mean, if you take a sample of 10000 hard working, church-going, everyday citizens.
Theres probably a good chance at least a few of them are pedophiles, a few may be spouse abusers, one may even be a murderer.
When you take people in the ARMY, those numbers just skyrocket due to some of the shit they go through while oversees.
Basically, all I am saying is that any large group of people are going to have bad representatives. Militaries even more so.
Go look back into russian and german armies and what THEY did to people. Ok studies don't describe everything. Just because there are a lot of them doesn't make it acceptable or right that they did this. I don't care how many people are involved because they signed on to protect their country not just shoot whatever they see. Frankly you trying to rationalize these actions through statistics sickens me. To me you are accepting what they did as normal.
Wtf? Nobody said anything about it being acceptable
What I am saying is that every nation likes pointing fingers at US troops, because they are supposed to be perfect or something?
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... and the winning of hearts and minds continues...
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On September 28 2010 10:18 On_Slaught wrote:
This is so sad to see.
These soldiers are going to be misrable for the rest of their lives. There isn't many places more misrable than a military prison. They will live a horrible, painful, and depressing life for as long as they are alive.
... I can't tell if you're being sincere or not. Why are you concerned about the prison sentence that these assholes will get? They killed innocent civilians without provocation, and you're worried about their future? Is it not justified that these scumbags are locked up in prison for the rest of their lives? Should we care about whether or not the conditions of a military prison are adequate for these guys?!
There is no legitimate stance you could take to defend their actions, and there is no morally righteous reason for empathizing with heartless murderers. Who gives a shit whether they'll be miserable for the rest of their pathetic existences?! These guys... no, these worms are callous thugs, and they deserve life in prison and more. Hell, if I was the warden keeping these assholes in line for the next 40 years, I'd go out of my way to make them regret such horrible actions.
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On September 28 2010 10:27 wadadde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:15 Whiladan wrote:On September 28 2010 10:13 wadadde wrote:On September 28 2010 10:00 motbob wrote:On September 28 2010 09:59 RiB wrote:
Things to account for when thinking about this story:
1) War's effects on the human psyche (isolation, fear of death, killing another human being)
2) The power of "chain of command"
3) Tangible objectives of war
So how's that spread of democracy going? It's going fine, thank you. We've achieved stability in Iraq and we think we can do the same in Afghanistan. I don't want to derail the thread here, but stability in Iraq existed before the billions (trillions) were spent on a war that resulted in the loss of more that 1 million Iraqi civilian lives. The US has left behind a culture of secret prisons and torture (or to put it nicer : it didn't put an end to the practice) and now the extent of the problem is coming to the surface. Stating that stability has been achieved in Iraq is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say? This remains to be seen. All that's certain is the extent of the damage and the scope of the violence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attackI completely disagree. Well, you may disagree, but your link doesn't support your case. Please don't make me explain this.
And yours is unsubstantiated. You've provided no examples; saying something doesn't make it so.
War doesn't cause immediate stability...but stability through civil genocide? That's a new one. Iraq is much better off now than it was ten years ago, of that there is no question. (I said it, that makes it true)
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These guys in no way represent the majority of our armed forces. Does shit like this happen, of course. Does it happen as much as people now think, NO. This unit is not even close to a normal unit. I served 2 years and 3 months in Iraq, not 1 time did I see anything that was in violation of geneva convention, from a US soilder
If you think we are in afganistan just for Bin Laden your clearly mistaken. We have all heard it but to me its very logical. We are in afghanistan (imo) to keep the attention some were else than our main land.
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There are quite a few assumptions being made here, and many of them with no evidence.
On September 28 2010 09:45 sikyon wrote:
Do you think the military is made up of people in the top 10% of their class in high school or the bottom 10%?
I just got a degree in physics, but I apparently there's a mistake because I'm supposed to be in the bottom 10% of students. Or you just made that up without actually knowing anybody in the military.
On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
My respect for MOST U.S. soldiers gets lower and lower every day"
Let's try another generalization. Did you know a mother in France recently was charged with murdering eight babies? http://www.euronews.net/2010/07/29/french-mother-charged-with-murder-of-eight-babies/
My respect for MOST French mothers gets lower and lower every day.
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On September 28 2010 10:15 JamesJohansen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
My respect for MOST U.S. soldiers gets lower and lower every day" Well, I was against jumping into the TL scene but fuck it this comment is just too much. Anyways, this is too the know-it-all kids on the sight who say "fucking soldiers, godammit" it general, not just this guy. Comments like this really show just how disconnected with reality most people really are. 1. Every fucking profession has psychos join up at some point in time. Why the fuck are soldiers exempt from being mentally ill? You see all kinds of nutjobs in the US army just as you might see many in the salvation army, this cannot be fixed. 2. War isn't some little chess game where enemies exchange being nice to each other. Bad shit happens, terrible unspeakable shit that makes most grown men stand back in shock. Its not right, but its part of war and has gone on since the dawn of time. 3. This comment disrespects all of the many service men who want nothing more than to do their duty to their respective countries. I know its fashionable to say all soldiers are baby rapers but give me a break, show a little respect for guys that get shot at for a bunch of old white assholes all in the name of protecting a nation. 4. I know many individuals who would do nothing more than jump on a live grenade for their brothers in service. They have a true belief in the their soldier's oath and stand by each other no matter what. This won't be taken seriously by anyone here since most of you know everything and then some and are the respective voices of authority even over the soldiers that work to keep your free speech so i don't know why i bother.
I have taken you seriously, great post!
War by definition is lawless, people die. One day it might be in your backyard and you might actually have to nut up.
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On September 28 2010 10:32 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:18 GreEny K wrote:On September 28 2010 09:54 Fa1nT wrote:
Uh... people are bad..?
I mean, if you take a sample of 10000 hard working, church-going, everyday citizens.
Theres probably a good chance at least a few of them are pedophiles, a few may be spouse abusers, one may even be a murderer.
When you take people in the ARMY, those numbers just skyrocket due to some of the shit they go through while oversees.
Basically, all I am saying is that any large group of people are going to have bad representatives. Militaries even more so.
Go look back into russian and german armies and what THEY did to people. Ok studies don't describe everything. Just because there are a lot of them doesn't make it acceptable or right that they did this. I don't care how many people are involved because they signed on to protect their country not just shoot whatever they see. Frankly you trying to rationalize these actions through statistics sickens me. To me you are accepting what they did as normal. Wtf? Nobody said anything about it being acceptable What I am saying is that every nation likes pointing fingers at US troops, because they are supposed to be perfect or something?
It's cause americans are stupid enough to go to war on a constant basis... Yes war is fucked up and shitty things inevitably happen, that's why you should stay out of them.
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On September 28 2010 10:39 Jarhead wrote:There are quite a few assumptions being made here, and many of them with no evidence. Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:45 sikyon wrote:
Do you think the military is made up of people in the top 10% of their class in high school or the bottom 10%? I just got a degree in physics, but I apparently there's a mistake because I'm supposed to be in the bottom 10% of students. Or you just made that up without actually knowing anybody in the military. Show nested quote +
On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
My respect for MOST U.S. soldiers gets lower and lower every day"
Let's try another generalization. Did you know a mother in France recently was charged with murdering eight babies? http://www.euronews.net/2010/07/29/french-mother-charged-with-murder-of-eight-babies/My respect for MOST French mothers gets lower and lower every day.
The other generalization is offensive garbage, but the first one has some merit though....He isn't saying that all people in the military are stupid or poor, but you can't argue that on average, most people who enlist tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.
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On September 28 2010 10:36 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 10:27 wadadde wrote:On September 28 2010 10:15 Whiladan wrote:On September 28 2010 10:13 wadadde wrote:On September 28 2010 10:00 motbob wrote:On September 28 2010 09:59 RiB wrote:
Things to account for when thinking about this story:
1) War's effects on the human psyche (isolation, fear of death, killing another human being)
2) The power of "chain of command"
3) Tangible objectives of war
So how's that spread of democracy going? It's going fine, thank you. We've achieved stability in Iraq and we think we can do the same in Afghanistan. I don't want to derail the thread here, but stability in Iraq existed before the billions (trillions) were spent on a war that resulted in the loss of more that 1 million Iraqi civilian lives. The US has left behind a culture of secret prisons and torture (or to put it nicer : it didn't put an end to the practice) and now the extent of the problem is coming to the surface. Stating that stability has been achieved in Iraq is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say? This remains to be seen. All that's certain is the extent of the damage and the scope of the violence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attackI completely disagree. Well, you may disagree, but your link doesn't support your case. Please don't make me explain this. And yours is unsubstantiated. You've provided no examples; saying something doesn't make it so. War doesn't cause immediate stability...but stability through civil genocide? That's a new one. Iraq is much better off now than it was ten years ago, of that there is no question. (I said it, that makes it true)
Iraq went to shit when we got there... it may be better now, depends on who you ask. Posting a wiki page about something that happened in 88 doesn't justify us getting involved 12 or 13 years later. Governments handle internal issues with there population differently. Am I saying what Iraq did was right? Of course not. But do we have the right to police the world when it serves the US?
As far as stability, that can be debated until we are blue in the face and our sources are going to have an agenda both ways. So honestly who really knows. I will say Iraq had to fall apart completely before it got back to were it is now... is it better? Depends on who you ask in Iraq.
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On September 28 2010 09:54 Fa1nT wrote:
What I am saying is that every nation likes pointing fingers at US troops, because they are supposed to be perfect or something?
They are supposed to stay at home and keep suppressing their own people, kkthx
Aah, freedom.
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What the fuck. People smoking hash shouldn't be like this - if I was smoking has I would have been freaking out about that.
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The other generalization is offensive garbage, but the first one has some merit though....He isn't saying that all people in the military are stupid or poor, but you can't argue that on average, most people who enlist tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.
Ok, but that is not what he said. He implied that those who enlist are in the bottom 10% of their high schools, not from poor backgrounds. He falsely implied stupidity and ignorance, whereas your claim is justified and true.
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Sickening. These are the kinds of stories extremists use to start violence. Absolutely disgusting that someone representing the United States Army would ever do such a thing.
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On September 28 2010 10:15 JamesJohansen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
My respect for MOST U.S. soldiers gets lower and lower every day" Well, I was against jumping into the TL scene but fuck it this comment is just too much. Anyways, this is too the know-it-all kids on the sight who say "fucking soldiers, godammit" it general, not just this guy. Comments like this really show just how disconnected with reality most people really are. 1. Every fucking profession has psychos join up at some point in time. Why the fuck are soldiers exempt from being mentally ill? You see all kinds of nutjobs in the US army just as you might see many in the salvation army, this cannot be fixed. 2. War isn't some little chess game where enemies exchange being nice to each other. Bad shit happens, terrible unspeakable shit that makes most grown men stand back in shock. Its not right, but its part of war and has gone on since the dawn of time. 3. This comment disrespects all of the many service men who want nothing more than to do their duty to their respective countries. I know its fashionable to say all soldiers are baby rapers but give me a break, show a little respect for guys that get shot at for a bunch of old white assholes all in the name of protecting a nation. 4. I know many individuals who would do nothing more than jump on a live grenade for their brothers in service. They have a true belief in the their soldier's oath and stand by each other no matter what. This won't be taken seriously by anyone here since most of you know everything and then some and are the respective voices of authority even over the soldiers that work to keep your free speech so i don't know why i bother.
1. A developed country such as the U.S. should stop bringing such people into the army then. If these kind of people can get into the army then idk what this world has come to.
2. This isn't even war, they are going out to kill civilians for the fun of it. And just because this has been going on since the dawn of time doesn't change a THING. If its really been going on so long, then the ones recruiting these soldiers really need to look at who they are recruiting.
3. Okay, let me rephrase my comment again " I fucking hate people who kill innocent civilians, not servicemen." I thank all real soldiers for being there when the time comes to protect my family. (The afghans aren't harming anyone though, that's why I said "when the time comes")
4. I respect those people more then I would any scientist.
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Oh my god, this is so horrible. I feel so sorry for the victims and for their families!!
I mean, come on, a bunch of heavily armed guys walking around in your town, arbitrarily killing people for fun/sports?
Why are we still doing this? Haven't we learned anything? There goes the idealistic nutjob... I guess.
But it's still true: Violence/war = bad! Don't do it! Everybody, everywhere. There is nothing honorable about killing people, even if your country says it is your duty. It can't be the solution!
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EPT
