EPTdeath teleportation - Page 20
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:25 KevinIX wrote: There's a difference between cloning and teleporting. I'm assuming that a teleporter would create an identical copy of you with all your experiences and genetics identical to your old body. Cloning doesn't pass on your memories only your genetics. I think that the experience you have in life defines you as an individual. If both your experiences and genetics are identical, you are the same person. By cloning, I meant duplicating. Even if we make a copy of you with the same memories, experiences, and brain, your consciousness won't suddenly exist in two places. Identical ≠ same. Two identical hard drives with identical data on them still aren't the same hard drive. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:26 Millitron wrote: But the copy is a perfect copy. An instant before you teleport, your memories and thoughts would be copied over. So while it isn't the same consciousness, it IS an exact copy of it, so it may as well be the same one. I would do it for sure. And you would cease to exist with someone else exactly like you living instead of you. Basically your proposition is that if two bodies are the same they are the same person, that is patently absurd, as such technology would allow to create multiple exactly the same bodies. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:28 mcc wrote: By cloning I think he does not mean the biological cloning, just the process of creating exactly the same individual with exactly the same brain and thus memories and experiences. The teleporters in question are actually cloning (in this sense of the word) machines that just clone you in different location. Well, I think that your identity is two parts: your experiences in life and your genetics. They must be identical to be considered the same person. If you clone yourself, your experiences instantly begin to diverge. You can't be in the exact same place at the same time. So you are now 2 people. On the other hand, if your old body is destroyed, it's the same as if you teleported. You have the same body and the same experiences, you're just in a different place. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Of course, the raging Lew Therin's voice does continue to drive me insane :/ | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:32 sunprince wrote: By cloning, I meant duplicating. Even if we make a copy of you with the same memories, experiences, and brain, your consciousness won't suddenly exist in two places. Identical ≠ same. Two identical hard drives with identical data on them still aren't the same hard drive. They are not physically the same, because they're constructed of different molecules. But for all practical purposes, they are the same. You could use either hard drive interchangeably and the output would be identical. If you put one hard drive in one side, and got the other hard drive out the other side, I would consider that teleportation. I guess what it comes down to is, do you HAVE to be made of the exact same molecules to be considered identical. I argue: no. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:26 phosphorylation wrote: Does anyone have a response to my post earlier in this thread? Genuinely curious: "The question to be asked here is: how is this different from falling into a coma and gaining consciousness? Most people would want (and see no problem) in continuing on their lives after recovering from a coma. In both cases, there is a distinct break in consciousness and you are, more or less, the same person afterwards. (Actually, even more so in the teleportation sitaution). The only distinction is that there's no break in the continuity of the existence of material matter in the coma situation. But is that important at all? Difficult question indeed" All the problems with such teleporters are linked to destruction of the original, to the end of "space-time" continuity of your body. So the answer is most likely that it is actually important. Seems gradual changes that keep the continuity are ok, quick ones are not. People place too much importance on consciousness (even I used that word incorrectly in this thread I think), but person is not equal to his consciousness, far from it. All the rest of mental processes and even non-mental processes are part of that identity. In the coma your consciousness might not be active, but it is not destroyed and all the rest of you continues to exist. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
But then the information would be sent off to some degenerate lump of matter and used to reconstruct a copy of you. I don't believe you're anything but your atoms so it would be murder to me. Imagine the scenario where you skip the last step and its not hard to see why. | ||
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Warent
Sweden205 Posts
It seems that most in this thread are so called rational people who don't seem to believe that the consciousness is nothing more than the sum of ones memories, experiences, senses and personality - and perhaps the ability to control the "body". If this is true, then "you" - does not really exist in the first place. The component listed above are constantly changing and thus the old "you" are destroyed and a new "you" are created - every hour - every second - every moment of "your" life - you do not exist. One could of course argue that "you" are constantly evolving as new memories, experiences, skills, feelings etc. are joined with past experiences. But that would be the same as saying that "you" in fact are something more than the sum of your experiences, memories, senses and personality. Not sure if this made any sense at all  . Things are much easier for those who believe that you are a soul. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
Hell, I might even ask if they could make some improvements on the other end. | ||
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reincremate
China2210 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:33 KevinIX wrote: Well, I think that your identity is two parts: your experiences in life and your genetics. They must be identical to be considered the same person. If you clone yourself, your experiences instantly begin to diverge. You can't be in the exact same place at the same time. So you are now 2 people. On the other hand, if your old body is destroyed, it's the same as if you teleported. You have the same body and the same experiences, you're just in a different place. Now compare both those situations. 1) Person at point A is cloned at point B and both of them live 2) Person at point A is cloned at point B and during/after person at A is disintegrated You are saying that there is some qualitative difference between those two situations, that physical laws in effect are behaving differently. Although both processes are the same in their important aspects in 1) you stayed where you were, in 2) you were teleported. That violates principle of parsimony. It is much more reasonable to assume that in both cases exactly the same thing happens. Person's duplicate is created at B. That is given as that is what the machine does. In 1) person at A stays at A. In 2) person at A dies. So unless you invoke some magical laws, in both cases duplicate is created at B and in 2) person at A is killed. Anything else is extremely violating principle of parsimony as it posits that at the destruction of person at A some magic happens that turns the duplicate at B into person at A. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:39 KevinIX wrote: They are not physically the same, because they're constructed of different molecules. But for all practical purposes, they are the same. You could use either hard drive interchangeably and the output would be identical. If you put one hard drive in one side, and got the other hard drive out the other side, I would consider that teleportation. I guess what it comes down to is, do you HAVE to be made of the exact same molecules to be considered identical. I argue: no. Exact same molecules are not the issue, even with them the original is still dead, because as he said identical <> same. | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:44 L3gendary wrote: Definitely not. A teleportation process would work by first measuring the position and structure of all your atoms. In doing so it would destroy you in a pretty dramatic fashion, essentially no different than blowing you up in a nuke blast. That's because quantum mechanics doesn't allow you to measure something to arbitrary precision without disturbing what you're measuring. But then the information would be sent off to some degenerate lump of matter and used to reconstruct a copy of you. I don't believe you're anything but your atoms so it would be murder to me. Imagine the scenario where you skip the last step and its not hard to see why. Well it is thought experiment so we do not necessarily have to assume that QM would be an obstacle. But you have a good point that thinking that such teleportation is not death is equal to thinking that there is a immaterial soul. | ||
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Iskusstvo
United Kingdom323 Posts
You get out of the booth, which turns out to be the left one, and out of the opposite booth to the right comes an apparently identical copy of you. You get chatting, and you both have the same memories and personality down to every single detail, even not remembering if you went into the left or right booth. Now, the question is, is there any way of determining which one of you is the 'real' (i.e. the one which is not a copy) you? (Assuming for simplicity's sake that there was no external evidence which might prove which booth 'the original' went into) If not, should you kill the other anyway, just because there shouldn't be another one of you? | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:45 Warent wrote: Wow, this is an interesting approach to the more fundamental question: "Who am I?". It seems that most in this thread are so called rational people who don't seem to believe that the consciousness is nothing more than the sum of ones memories, experiences, senses and personality - and perhaps the ability to control the "body". If this is true, then "you" - does not really exist in the first place. The component listed above are constantly changing and thus the old "you" are destroyed and a new "you" are created - every hour - every second - every moment of "your" life - you do not exist. One could of course argue that "you" are constantly evolving as new memories, experiences, skills, feelings etc. are joined with past experiences. But that would be the same as saying that "you" in fact are something more than the sum of your experiences, memories, senses and personality. Not sure if this made any sense at all . Things are much easier for those who believe that you are a soul. Actually your last inference does not follow in my opinion. I think the concept of "me" is tightly linked to a my body gradually changening(evolving) in space-time. And any non-gradual changes are the end of "me". | ||
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PanzerPony
85 Posts
Unrelated to teleportation, I think if you were guaranteed that your death will be instant (at unknown point in time in future), you could consider yourself immortal. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:47 Iyerbeth wrote: I don't believe the parts that make me up aremore important than the result and if the result was that I would remember stepping in to a machine and then stepping out of the machine (with no horrible death in between, just ceasing to exist in one place) and I knew for certain that I would still be me on t he other end, I'd go along with it. Hell, I might even ask if they could make some improvements on the other end. Ok, now imagine, you step into the machine, information about you are copied and then you are brutally and painfully murdered. Then in another place 5 copies of you are created all of them remembering that they stepped into the machine and are now stepping out of it without anything bad happening. Still sure about that ? | ||
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PanzerPony
85 Posts
On April 15 2012 02:58 Iskusstvo wrote: Okay, I heard an interesting development on this: Lets say you wake up in one of these machines, you have memories of yourself going to the facility where it is housed, and seeing two identical booth-style machines side by side, one on the left, and another on the right. However, you cannot remember anything beyond that. You get out of the booth, which turns out to be the left one, and out of the opposite booth to the right comes an apparently identical copy of you. You get chatting, and you both have the same memories and personality down to every single detail, even not remembering if you went into the left or right booth. Now, the question is, is there any way of determining which one of you is the 'real' (i.e. the one which is not a copy) you? (Assuming for simplicity's sake that there was no external evidence which might prove which booth 'the original' went into) If not, should you kill the other anyway, just because there shouldn't be another one of you? That's an interesting question indeed, exactly like the one in the video someone linked on the previous page. I think the answer will depend on who answers it. Each of the copies will insist on being the original (just human nature ). From the point of view of society (employer, wife, etc) it won't make a difference. So, the answer will depend on convenience. In case of teleportation, it is more convenient that the copy is considered the original (and original destroyed). In case you describe, it will be difficult to determine and a huge moral panic and a shitstorm would occur. | ||
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