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United States24723 Posts
On May 18 2010 23:02 ArKaDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 10:03 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 09:43 ArKaDo wrote:On May 18 2010 07:32 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 06:26 ArKaDo wrote:
When you choose to be a teacher, you accept that it is not an easy job (in some way),
I basically agree with what you said (neutral on hitting in general) but... what did you mean by that? Well, a noobenglish habit of putting that everywhere. I learned english in montreal, it's hard to follow there is like 3 pakistaneses and 2 chineses disturbing you each time you say a word the good way. I'm joking ! Er I meant the bolded part not the word that... You think working as a teacher is harder than being a cleaner in hospital or working like shit in a mcdonald? There is way worst job... in my country you work like between 10 & 18 hours a week as a teacher, depending on your grade. It's not a hard job for me. That's why i added in some ways... teacher is hard because you can face difficult realities, violence from child, etc. But on the same time it's pretty easy jobs, without any physical part (except when you beat a child that is) and a job that is respected in our society. ps: sry about the misunderstanding.
I think our language differences are causing me to misunderstand your subtext. Your explanation helped.. no I haven't made any claim about which jobs are better or worse.
When you say 'hard' job, what do you mean?
Also, teaching in France is 10 to 18 hours of work? Which aspects of work does that include? It sounds great but too good to be true
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On May 18 2010 23:14 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 23:02 ArKaDo wrote:On May 18 2010 10:03 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 09:43 ArKaDo wrote:On May 18 2010 07:32 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 06:26 ArKaDo wrote:
When you choose to be a teacher, you accept that it is not an easy job (in some way),
I basically agree with what you said (neutral on hitting in general) but... what did you mean by that? Well, a noobenglish habit of putting that everywhere. I learned english in montreal, it's hard to follow there is like 3 pakistaneses and 2 chineses disturbing you each time you say a word the good way. I'm joking ! Er I meant the bolded part not the word that... You think working as a teacher is harder than being a cleaner in hospital or working like shit in a mcdonald? There is way worst job... in my country you work like between 10 & 18 hours a week as a teacher, depending on your grade. It's not a hard job for me. That's why i added in some ways... teacher is hard because you can face difficult realities, violence from child, etc. But on the same time it's pretty easy jobs, without any physical part (except when you beat a child that is) and a job that is respected in our society. ps: sry about the misunderstanding. I think our language differences are causing me to misunderstand your subtext. Your explanation helped.. no I haven't made any claim about which jobs are better or worse. When you say 'hard' job, what do you mean? Also, teaching in France is 10 to 18 hours of work? Which aspects of work does that include? It sounds great but too good to be true
hard job, well it's pretty "hard" to respond to that. A job can be hard physically (lot of hour of work, lot of physical task like for exemple working in a car factory ?) and mentally (like a lof of hour of work with little respect from your superiors or co workers, no friends or so, repeatitiv action with no place for individualities, etc.).
Well, There is different type of contracts in france for teachers. The one we call "contratuels" (contractors) are those who have contract for 1 years from september to June, with two month where you are unemployed but still got a little paid. They work 18 hours a week at the school, by that i mean 18 hours with kids in class. They can correct their copies and such in their house. There is not a lot of contractors but the government are using them more and more as years past since they cost less, work more and are easily fired.
Then there is normal teachers who are "fonctionnaire" (which mean they work for the state) and have a special contract where they almost cannot be fired (if they are in the syndicate, well even a pedophile cannot get fired lol, i'm exagerating a little bit there but that's the spirit). They work like 16 hours a week, are paid more and have a certain number of advantage. To be such teacher you must pass a difficult exam called CAPES with what 70-100 slots a year something like that.
Lastly, the one we called "aggrégés" (aggregate) are the one who pass the "agregation", a really difficult exam with 10 place a year or so, and have 8-9 hours a week of work.
All the time i refer to the time they pass in the school, in class with the kids, not the correction of copies or the time you spend to contact parents or the time you spend with kids outside class individually.
Well all these advantage are more and more critized by some party, like during the election, people argued that they should stay 35 hours a week in the school (35h is the legal duration of work a week in france). The actual government is reducing the number of teacher (that's why there is so few slot in the CAPES or for the agregation).
Well I'm not that sure about everything i say there, since i'm not a teacher, but i'm pretty sure most is true (since i have a lot of friend who are teachers actually and I am always arguing with them about the fact that they have an easy jobs and should stop whining all the time, have a little respect for others who work 2 or 3 time what they work).
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United States24723 Posts
On May 19 2010 00:19 ArKaDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 23:14 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 23:02 ArKaDo wrote:On May 18 2010 10:03 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 09:43 ArKaDo wrote:On May 18 2010 07:32 micronesia wrote:On May 18 2010 06:26 ArKaDo wrote:
When you choose to be a teacher, you accept that it is not an easy job (in some way),
I basically agree with what you said (neutral on hitting in general) but... what did you mean by that? Well, a noobenglish habit of putting that everywhere. I learned english in montreal, it's hard to follow there is like 3 pakistaneses and 2 chineses disturbing you each time you say a word the good way. I'm joking ! Er I meant the bolded part not the word that... You think working as a teacher is harder than being a cleaner in hospital or working like shit in a mcdonald? There is way worst job... in my country you work like between 10 & 18 hours a week as a teacher, depending on your grade. It's not a hard job for me. That's why i added in some ways... teacher is hard because you can face difficult realities, violence from child, etc. But on the same time it's pretty easy jobs, without any physical part (except when you beat a child that is) and a job that is respected in our society. ps: sry about the misunderstanding. I think our language differences are causing me to misunderstand your subtext. Your explanation helped.. no I haven't made any claim about which jobs are better or worse. When you say 'hard' job, what do you mean? Also, teaching in France is 10 to 18 hours of work? Which aspects of work does that include? It sounds great but too good to be true hard job, well it's pretty "hard" to respond to that. A job can be hard physically (lot of hour of work, lot of physical task like for exemple working in a car factory ?) and mentally (like a lof of hour of work with little respect from your superiors or co workers, no friends or so, repeatitiv action with no place for individualities, etc.). Yeah exactly, I totally agree with you. I think it's important we clear this up before talking about types of jobs in this manner.
Well, There is different type of contracts in france for teachers. The one we call "contratuels" (contractors) are those who have contract for 1 years from september to June, with two month where you are unemployed but still got a little paid. They work 18 hours a week at the school, by that i mean 18 hours with kids in class. They can correct their copies and such in their house. There is not a lot of contractors but the government are using them more and more as years past since they cost less, work more and are easily fired.
Then there is normal teachers who are "fonctionnaire" (which mean they work for the state) and have a special contract where they almost cannot be fired (if they are in the syndicate, well even a pedophile cannot get fired lol, i'm exagerating a little bit there but that's the spirit). They work like 16 hours a week, are paid more and have a certain number of advantage. To be such teacher you must pass a difficult exam called CAPES with what 70-100 slots a year something like that.
Lastly, the one we called "aggrégés" (aggregate) are the one who pass the "agregation", a really difficult exam with 10 place a year or so, and have 8-9 hours a week of work.
All the time i refer to the time they pass in the school, in class with the kids, not the correction of copies or the time you spend to contact parents or the time you spend with kids outside class individually.
Well all these advantage are more and more critized by some party, like during the election, people argued that they should stay 35 hours a week in the school (35h is the legal duration of work a week in france). The actual government is reducing the number of teacher (that's why there is so few slot in the CAPES or for the agregation).
Well I'm not that sure about everything i say there, since i'm not a teacher, but i'm pretty sure most is true (since i have a lot of friend who are teachers actually and I am always arguing with them about the fact that they have an easy jobs and should stop whining all the time, have a little respect for others who work 2 or 3 time what they work).
Thanks for explaining all of that for me. First of all I want to point out that it's very misleading to say a teacher 'works' for 16 or 18 hours a week or whatever it is (depending on the type of teacher apparently). The time spent teaching a class is only a portion of the total time and effort that goes into good teaching (you made a note about this). One major difference between France and the USA seems to be that French teachers don't have contractual hours to be 'at' work. Here I am responsible to be in the school from a few minutes before school starts for children to a few minutes after school ends for children, regardless of my personal teaching schedule. Furthermore there are other contractual obligations outside of that time including meetings, conferences, and other things, but that's really not that important.
Kids are in school here for... approximately 7 hours for a standard school day (there are many variations but just as a rough estimate). Teachers are there for the entire duration which is approximately 35 hours a week plus an hour for extra help, and hour for a meeting, etc, which works out to 37 plus sometimes more of contractual time. Not too bad considering teachers get summer months off, right? The only problem with this way of thinking is that teachers spend a lot of time outside of those hours doing work for their job. During that window, there is insufficient time to get planning, grading, etc done. Most teachers are in the school for at least 8-9 hours or bring a couple of hours of work home. Not to say that this is unfair but it gets overlooked a lot.
I just ask that you don't tell me I worked 15 hours a week this past school year :p
Not sure what your friends are complaining about with their job but there are some aspects that they probably are justified to complain about, but when did complaining ever accomplish much? I guess that goes for all jobs... I try not to complain too much about it... except sometimes to other teachers who share my pain :3
edit: btw I've held jobs ranging from teaching (obviously) to being a supermarket cashier, garbage man, other stuff, and I'll tell you that teaching is pretty damn exhausting... no joke
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Well I've never imply that school teacher do not work enough. And I know that it is a hard job (I done it, even if it is irrelevant since it was for such a little time).
By adding "in some way", I was just referring to the fact that there is way harder jobs physically speaking (In fact, I think that teacher is one of the hardest job if you only consider the mental pressure).
As for france, some of their complain are certainly justified if you look at the degradation of our scholar system, that's for sure. But on the other hand, they act like a corporation, only defending their position and their little advantage as state teachers.
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A lot of people hear are judging and judging harshly. In this instance I have to say none here are fit to be doing so. This is a school for troubled children, the teacher may be reacting in a troubled way but you have no context to pass judgment not to mention a lack of understanding of the situation and dynamics present. It is enough to be disgusted and ask questions, intelligently debate but there is no base for crass judgment.
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Not that the teacher should have acted in that manner, but does anyone think that maybe the student shouldn't have been a prick? That way, the situation leading to these events could have been avoided altogether...
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It is the teacher and the parents' job to teach the students why they shouldn't be acting in such behavior. I feel responsible if i didn't make it clear on my expectations of behavior in my class. I also feel responsible if i didn't make it clear on what it means to be respectful as respect surely is one of the expectations in any classroom. That being said, there are of course kids who behave in unacceptable ways regardless, the teacher just have to remember they are kids and the reason they are going to school is to learn, not just learn academic knowledge, but life lessons as well. There are many many good students for every miss behaving students, a teacher should never fail at their job because of a few bad students that are stressing them out. After all both the good and the troubled are sitting in the same class.
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On May 20 2010 03:34 JinMaikeul wrote:
Not that the teacher should have acted in that manner, but does anyone think that maybe the student shouldn't have been a prick? That way, the situation leading to these events could have been avoided altogether...
ya well, given the average 13 year old males, one of them has to be a prick. hell one of us talking about it in this thread was probably a little prick when we were young.
there's only so much crap a teacher can take from someone half or a third their age before they snap.
still, that doesn't justify her actions, but its understandable, i suppose.
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Yeah, I guess it pretty much goes back to the whole, "Instead of saying 'Fuck the Police', how about not breaking the fucking law?" thing... Ideally the situation would be avoided altogether, but when the conflict comes, you would really hope that the authority figure acts appropriately. I do think we're too quick to judge them, though. They're human beings, too, and despite their actions being inappropriate, sometimes they're ultimately understandable.
And yes, I was a prick when I was younger and my parents regularly beat the crap out of me for it. I forget when it was that I eventually learned that instead of complaining about the way they disciplined me, I could adjust my own behavior so I wouldn't need to be in a position to be disciplined anyway...
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Jamie's House Charter School is a school for children with disciplinary issues.
Sheri Lynn Davis got the Teacher of the Year award 2 of the 3 years she worked at Jamie's House Charter School.
The child that was assaulted (Isaiah Reagins) was apparently known for assaulting kids and teachers himself. He'd been expelled from the school and came back and had a history with the teacher Sheri Lynn Davis.
The incident happened after testing had finished and all the students were sitting on the ground in the room. This is a school for children with disciplinary issues, all of the students in the room were African American with one white girl that was new and mentally handicapped.
A fight broke out outside the classroom and Sheri Lynn Davis had to go and break it up. After breaking the fight up outside she went back to her room to find the kids had locked her out.
When she finally gets into her classroom the kids are all picking on the new mentally handicapped girl. With reports that Isaiah Reagins was hitting her.
Sheri Lynn Davis throws a desk and yells “So, you want to fight a girl? Fight me.”
While this is happening other students are laughing and clapping, they weren't freaking out, they weren't intervening, they thought it was funny which supports that this was a school for kids with disciplinary issues not a regular school.
These kids obviously aren't angels and the minute the teacher left the class to deal with a fight outside (which apparently happens a lot here) they locked her out and started picking on the mentally handicapped new girl with Isaiah Reagins reportedly hitting her. Isaiah Reagins pulls this shit all the time, he came back after having been expelled. He has a history with Sheri Lynn Davis too whose reportedly Isaiah's "favorite teacher."
Sheri Lynn Davis is not a bad teacher, she got Teacher of the Year twice in three years and was apparently well liked. Obviously Sheri Lynn Davis shouldn't have beat up that kid. And I'm not trying to argue that she got pushed too far or anything. At the end of the day she has to suffer a lot more than that kid that gets to sit there acting like he's the victim when he's the sort of kid that would pick on a mentally handicapped girl. "That brave little boy."
She loses her job and faces possible jail time while everyone tells the boy he's so brave. I wish there were a few more people in support of the teacher because even though she made a mistake that kid doesn't deserve as much support as he's getting.
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On May 19 2010 23:50 jabberwokie wrote:
A lot of people hear are judging and judging harshly. In this instance I have to say none here are fit to be doing so. This is a school for troubled children, the teacher may be reacting in a troubled way but you have no context to pass judgment not to mention a lack of understanding of the situation and dynamics present. It is enough to be disgusted and ask questions, intelligently debate but there is no base for crass judgment.
Nonsense. Of course I have a right to pass judgment. Her actions affected not just herself but all of society. She was playing a important public function as an educator, and it was clear as day that the teacher was snapping and venting frustration on a kid who was in no condition to fight back. Whatever 'context' or mitigating circumstance is irrelevant. The moment you assume your role as teacher, you must hold yourself above that of a normal person, at least for that instance. Education is a almost sacred duty, there are few roles more important for the future of a society. It is terrible and it is hard, but if you are not passionate and prepared for such an important job you have no business being in the teaching profession.
The fact that this is a school for troubled children makes this action even worse. This means that the teacher should have understanding and acceptance of the difficult situations she will be called upon to face.
The fact that people are ready to condone such behavior is evidence that we do not nearly value education enough as a society. Snapping like this might be mildly tolerable in any other job, but NOT in the role of an educator.
Edit: Just want to add, this is not a issue of corporal punishment. I in fact support corporal punishment, but this isn't it. Corporal punishment must be orderly and instill disciplined, this is just an adult beating up on a child . This uncontrolled, disorderly attitude from a teacher is more detrimental than the actual use of force.
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United States24723 Posts
On May 24 2010 19:15 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 23:50 jabberwokie wrote:
A lot of people hear are judging and judging harshly. In this instance I have to say none here are fit to be doing so. This is a school for troubled children, the teacher may be reacting in a troubled way but you have no context to pass judgment not to mention a lack of understanding of the situation and dynamics present. It is enough to be disgusted and ask questions, intelligently debate but there is no base for crass judgment. Nonsense. Of course I have a right to pass judgment. Her actions affected not just herself but all of society. She was playing a important public function as an educator, and it was clear as day that the teacher was snapping and venting frustration on a kid who was in no condition to fight back. Whatever 'context' or mitigating circumstance is irrelevant. The moment you assume your role as teacher, you must hold yourself above that of a normal person, at least for that instance. Education is a almost sacred duty, there are few roles more important for the future of a society. It is terrible and it is hard, but if you are not passionate and prepared for such an important job you have no business being in the teaching profession. The fact that this is a school for troubled children makes this action even worse. This means that the teacher should have understanding and acceptance of the difficult situations she will be called upon to face. The fact that people are ready to condone such behavior is evidence that we do not nearly value education enough as a society. Snapping like this might be mildly tolerable in any other job, but NOT in the role of an educator. Edit: Just want to add, this is not a issue of corporal punishment. I in fact support corporal punishment, but this isn't it. Corporal punishment must be orderly and instill disciplined, this is just an adult beating up on a child . This uncontrolled, disorderly attitude from a teacher is more detrimental than the actual use of force.
Do I understand you correctly, Aphelion? When someone points out that we don't have all the facts and really should learn more about what really happened before passing down judgment on the teacher, your response is actually yes you can pass judgment? And your evidence is that teachers have the holy job that must never be violated? You admit her job was terrible and hard, but not that it can possibly be somewhat understanding that it could drive someone to snap...
If only people who would never snap in a job like that would take up teaching roles most kids like the ones seen in that video would remain teacher-less and uneducated anyway.
Also I don't see the guy you quoted condoning what the teacher did at all despite what you are implying... he's just saying we should not let a biased view of the events of the day be sufficient evidence for us to be judge and jury.
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Not sure why there is a 14 page debate here, that woman is obviously not well and shouldnt be allowed to be a teacher. It wasnt even like a disciplinary slap to quiet him down, which I still think is bad, its just a rage attack against a small child.
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United States24723 Posts
On May 24 2010 19:48 EvilSky wrote:
Not sure why there is a 14 page debate here, that woman is obviously not well and shouldnt be allowed to be a teacher. It wasnt even like a disciplinary slap to quiet him down, which I still think is bad, its just a rage attack against a small child.
Why did you say a rage attack against a small child? In what circumstances would he have been a bigger child? Would her rage attacks have been okay if she did the same thing against a 6'9" 340 pound 16 year old? That kid was old enough to be involved in some pretty terrible things outside of school and you have no idea how terribly he was acting towards his teacher, classmates, etc. Size doesn't have much to do with it.
Or are you just trying to make it sound as terrible as possible to justify your claims? You are probably right she shouldn't be teaching any more after this incidence but at least be fair in how you determine this.
edit: but to answer your original question... there's not really a 14 page debate... there is 14 pages of discussion about different elements of this issue and why some people should be going about the discussion in different ways than they are etc. plus some semantics.
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Well she probably couldnt do it to a 16 yr old cuz hed beat her ass, but thats obviously not the point, you are right it doesnt matter if its a small or big child, she is not a good person and shouldnt be allowed to teach.
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United States24723 Posts
On May 24 2010 19:56 EvilSky wrote:
Well she probably couldnt do it to a 16 yr old cuz hed beat her ass, but thats obviously not the point, you are right it doesnt matter if its a small or big child, she is not a good person and shouldnt be allowed to teach.
As I explained earlier saying "she is not a good person" is jumping to conclusions since we don't know what drove her to these terrible actions. Not being allowed to teach is more obvious though. You and I both probably would have cracked earlier than her in the ridiculous situation she was placed in and done god knows what... and if you say "well I wouldn't let myself be in that type of working environment" then realize that there are few people who would and we need to try to educate these problem kids somehow.
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On May 24 2010 19:04 ForSC2 wrote:
Jamie's House Charter School is a school for children with disciplinary issues.
Sheri Lynn Davis got the Teacher of the Year award 2 of the 3 years she worked at Jamie's House Charter School.
The child that was assaulted (Isaiah Reagins) was apparently known for assaulting kids and teachers himself. He'd been expelled from the school and came back and had a history with the teacher Sheri Lynn Davis.
The incident happened after testing had finished and all the students were sitting on the ground in the room. This is a school for children with disciplinary issues, all of the students in the room were African American with one white girl that was new and mentally handicapped.
A fight broke out outside the classroom and Sheri Lynn Davis had to go and break it up. After breaking the fight up outside she went back to her room to find the kids had locked her out.
When she finally gets into her classroom the kids are all picking on the new mentally handicapped girl. With reports that Isaiah Reagins was hitting her.
Sheri Lynn Davis throws a desk and yells “So, you want to fight a girl? Fight me.”
If that's true she's a hero.
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On May 24 2010 19:59 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:56 EvilSky wrote:
Well she probably couldnt do it to a 16 yr old cuz hed beat her ass, but thats obviously not the point, you are right it doesnt matter if its a small or big child, she is not a good person and shouldnt be allowed to teach. As I explained earlier saying "she is not a good person" is jumping to conclusions since we don't know what drove her to these terrible actions. Not being allowed to teach is more obvious though. You and I both probably would have cracked earlier than her in the ridiculous situation she was placed in and done god knows what... and if you say "well I wouldn't let myself be in that type of working environment" then realize that there are few people who would and we need to try to educate these problem kids somehow.
problem kids? ridiculous situation? now who is jumping to conclusions? Ive read the article and it nothing of that sort. But Im not really sure why you are trying to split hairs here, Im not saying this woman is the reincarnation of Hitler but in my opinion a person that is capable of doing this is not a good person and shouldnt be allowed to be a teacher.
edit: ok just read post above, disregard first part, second part still stands.
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On May 24 2010 19:47 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 19:15 Aphelion wrote:On May 19 2010 23:50 jabberwokie wrote:
A lot of people hear are judging and judging harshly. In this instance I have to say none here are fit to be doing so. This is a school for troubled children, the teacher may be reacting in a troubled way but you have no context to pass judgment not to mention a lack of understanding of the situation and dynamics present. It is enough to be disgusted and ask questions, intelligently debate but there is no base for crass judgment. Nonsense. Of course I have a right to pass judgment. Her actions affected not just herself but all of society. She was playing a important public function as an educator, and it was clear as day that the teacher was snapping and venting frustration on a kid who was in no condition to fight back. Whatever 'context' or mitigating circumstance is irrelevant. The moment you assume your role as teacher, you must hold yourself above that of a normal person, at least for that instance. Education is a almost sacred duty, there are few roles more important for the future of a society. It is terrible and it is hard, but if you are not passionate and prepared for such an important job you have no business being in the teaching profession. The fact that this is a school for troubled children makes this action even worse. This means that the teacher should have understanding and acceptance of the difficult situations she will be called upon to face. The fact that people are ready to condone such behavior is evidence that we do not nearly value education enough as a society. Snapping like this might be mildly tolerable in any other job, but NOT in the role of an educator. Edit: Just want to add, this is not a issue of corporal punishment. I in fact support corporal punishment, but this isn't it. Corporal punishment must be orderly and instill disciplined, this is just an adult beating up on a child . This uncontrolled, disorderly attitude from a teacher is more detrimental than the actual use of force. Do I understand you correctly, Aphelion? When someone points out that we don't have all the facts and really should learn more about what really happened before passing down judgment on the teacher, your response is actually yes you can pass judgment? And your evidence is that teachers have the holy job that must never be violated? You admit her job was terrible and hard, but not that it can possibly be somewhat understanding that it could drive someone to snap... If only people who would never snap in a job like that would take up teaching roles most kids like the ones seen in that video would remain teacher-less and uneducated anyway. Also I don't see the guy you quoted condoning what the teacher did at all despite what you are implying... he's just saying we should not let a biased view of the events of the day be sufficient evidence for us to be judge and jury.
If you read deep enough you can always find an excuse depending on "context". Its become a convenient excuse for those who do not own up to personal responsibilities. Context can provide the argument that you are not a bad person, but cannot excuse your bad actions. And in this world, it is actions and potential actions that should determine judgment.
Assuming the context provided by the other posters are true, this teacher is a kind hearted person who snapped when seeing that boy pick on a girl. What does this say? Her heart is in the right place. She didn't mean to genuinely hurt anyone. However, her actions are not forgivable, and she should never be allowed tot each again. Whatever her disposition maybe, these are the decisions that must be taken so we can improve our education system as a whole.
So yes, I can pass judgment just looking at that video. Because my judgment is on her actions, and as her role as a teacher. I can look at that video and safely say, that she ought to be removed from her position. My judgment does not extend to whatever personal "sins" she might have, or how good of a person she intrinsically is. If more people realized this we would not have the entitled, irresponsible attitudes society seems to tolerate these days.
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United States24723 Posts
Aphelion I mostly agree with you but you are making it sound like it's bad to wait and get more information than what one vague article has shown us. Btw I also don't disagree that we can judge at this point about the teacher being removed at the very least. But I get concerned by the amount people read into a situation and perpetuate misconceptions based on horribly incomplete info.
Context also can be important when looking at bad acions... it isn't necessarily just searching for excuses or a poor reflection on society.
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EPT
