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The 3 billion hours a week also includes the millions of botters and hackers in many MMORPGs, afkers, and people using the game to just chat with their friends. So the millions of botters and hackers won't have the optimism and everything she's talking about, but the ones that are lazy and want an easy way out.
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On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible.
And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life.
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On March 19 2010 07:00 muta_micro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 06:55 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:49 muta_micro wrote:
I meant generally. If you say it benefitted you then I believe you, but most people playing at that level don't really have any administrative positions that use those skills in RL. That's not what I was really getting at. Most employers love leadership experience (because I guess it shows responsibility), regardless of the position in question. I'll agree that the majority of WoW players are borderline retarded and that 95% of guild leaders do their jobs terribly. But I think if you can make a case about your experience, and explain everything that you've learned to deal with in a game -- then that should be just as impressive as "uh yeah I was captain of my soccer team." I love sports but what they do for kids is extremely over exaggerated in today's culture. More often then not it brings out the worst sides of them. I don't think any employer would ever seriously consider being a guild leader in WoW as leadership experience, unless you have charisma boosting items on you then you may have a chance to convince him. ...Is charisma even in WoW???
Very much so as oral communication is key in getting things done efficiently. Listen, I know there's the heavy negative bias towards gaming and most players of games like WoW really aren't very special at all and I wouldn't hire them either.
But the fact remains that if you really feel something has given you the edge over other applicants, you should put it on there. And let's be honest, most of the stuff people put on there is bullshit like, "Being the leader of my school's cultural club as been a gateway for me to learn about the world's problems and how we can accept each others differences in order to solve then."
When you know full well all you did was throw pizza parties after school and put "culturally relevant" posters up around the hallways.
I've put gaming experience on applications and resumes before, not just to tack things on but because if they honestly wanted to question me about them I'd be ready to blow them away. It never had to come up in the interviews but I've gotten part times jobs and positions in school organizations that I've wanted with that stuff on there.
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On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life.
Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing.
lol
Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing.
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On March 19 2010 07:08 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:00 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:55 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:49 muta_micro wrote:
I meant generally. If you say it benefitted you then I believe you, but most people playing at that level don't really have any administrative positions that use those skills in RL. That's not what I was really getting at. Most employers love leadership experience (because I guess it shows responsibility), regardless of the position in question. I'll agree that the majority of WoW players are borderline retarded and that 95% of guild leaders do their jobs terribly. But I think if you can make a case about your experience, and explain everything that you've learned to deal with in a game -- then that should be just as impressive as "uh yeah I was captain of my soccer team." I love sports but what they do for kids is extremely over exaggerated in today's culture. More often then not it brings out the worst sides of them. I don't think any employer would ever seriously consider being a guild leader in WoW as leadership experience, unless you have charisma boosting items on you then you may have a chance to convince him. ...Is charisma even in WoW??? Very much so as oral communication is key in getting things done efficiently. Listen, I know there's the heavy negative bias towards gaming and most players of games like WoW really aren't very special at all and I wouldn't hire them either. But the fact remains that if you really feel something has given you the edge over other applicants, you should put it on there. And let's be honest, most of the stuff people put on there is bullshit like, "Being the leader of my school's cultural club as been a gateway for me to learn about the world's problems and how we can accept each others differences in order to solve then." When you know full well all you did was throw pizza parties after school and put "culturally relevant" posters up around the hallways. I've put gaming experience on applications and resumes before, not just to tack things on but because if they honestly wanted to question me about them I'd be ready to blow them away. It never had to come up in the interviews but I've gotten part times jobs and positions in school organizations that I've wanted with that stuff on there.
Yea they definetly didn't look at your WoW experience and hire you for that reason. I doubt they even considered that. Plus you pretty much prove my point since you were hired as a part timer, and positions in school organizations aren't anything of consequence. In a real job they wouldn't take you putting WoW experience on a resume seriously. If I were an employer I know I wouldn't. But if you put that you were A- on iccup and proved it you would have the job for certain.
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On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing.
You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing.
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On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing.
while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking.
really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with?
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Instead of trying to quote the four or five people I'm replying to, I'm just going to generalize it and hope they catch on.
Back when I played WoW "seriously" years ago, I was the raid leader of a world first guild (Drama). Over the years, I made my way to being a raid leader in another world first guild (Deus Vox) up until I quit about six months ago.
As somebody mentioned before, it takes a lot of effort. It's practically a job at times. However the theory that good WoW players are somehow more successful in their real life (social, academic, whatever) is just so far from true. In fact, the reason I was such a great raid leader is because I'm everything but social offline. I find that I dislike most people these days, and that's the exact quality that made me a good leader. I wasn't there for friends; I was there to get the job done.
Going hand and hand with that, probably 99% of all "hardcore" guilds are led by some fourteen year old with a single digit IQ. I don't think I've ever met a hardcore guild leader (including the ones I was in) that would have been able to pass a ninth grade exam. On the contrary, nearly every guild leader of a small, "casual" guild is very mature, intelligent, and social.
In summary, I would say that playing a video game with a small, select amount of people that are all doing it casually would improve the offline lives of all involved. I would also say that being part of a larger, more serious group of players would just turn most of them into complete douchebags that nobody wants to be around.
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On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with?
Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it?
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On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it?
Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men.
This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job.
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On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life. Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 06:10 Alou wrote:
They can teach you communication, management, and team work. You can learn to communicate better say in Modern Warfare 2 when you're telling a stranger where an enemy is. You can learn how to manage things in Starcraft, figuring out what is more important and what you need now versus later. And you learn team work in just about any co-op/multiplayer game. Games can definitely help you learn some valuable skills.
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world.
So since we can learn it in sports, we shouldn't embrace what we can learn in games? What about the people who aren't socially accepted in sports? I'm almost 3 months premature and thus very small. I never felt accepted in sports because physically I was unable to compete with some of the people who were my age. I've found another way to work with other people in gaming. Should I just be forced into sports since it is in the real world and forced out of gaming since it is in a virtual role? I can learn to communicate by joining a random game in MW2. I can learn management by working on strategies for matches with my clan. I'm not bringing down what you can learn in sports, because you can learn a lot from it, but I'm saying gaming can be just as educational as sports can. And gaming doesn't have to be sitting on your ass for 10 hours a day like the common stereotype. It can be something beneficial, stimulating, and healthy.
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lol wut?
there are so many people playing games because it's enjoyable. perhaps there is a way to camouflage work into a game and get people to "solve" it but I really don't see that happening.
it's like saying... "yea there are lots of people jerking off everyday! that's a lot of potential labour we could use to build houses and dig for oil!"
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Her ideas are nice and hopeful, but I can't see it coming into fruition.
Sure you can teach someone management, teamwork, and communication through games, but those are simple skills you can pick up from basically doing anything in life. These skills alone aren't enough for people to solve "world problems", they need actual technical skill. I fail to see how a technical subject can be taught through video games. You can teach some basic math with video games, but how are you going to teach something like calculus (as basic as it is, more complex subjects will be even harder) through games?
It won't matter if we have these 1.5 billion people who are skilled at all of these social skills. Without any technical skills/knowledge they are worthless for solving any of the world's issues.
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On March 19 2010 07:34 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:
All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life.
[quote]
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it? Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men. This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job.
lol when did I ever say physical sports are superior?? ppl who play games are definetly superior because we're smarter generally. But i definetly have to say soccer players>WoW players, and SC players are the ubermensch.
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On March 19 2010 07:34 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:
All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life.
[quote]
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it? Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men. This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job.
When did anyone advocate doing this? The closest anyone said was me, saying that sports are better because there's actual social interaction, but even still it's terribly abstract in terms of turning those skills into saving the world or whatever..... Tiger Woods is going to fuck you wife, not cure cancer.
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On March 19 2010 08:06 muta_micro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:
[quote]
If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server.
Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc...
Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it? Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men. This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job. lol when did I ever say physical sports are superior?? ppl who play games are definetly superior because we're smarter generally. But i definetly have to say soccer players>WoW players, and SC players are the ubermensch.
lol gamers are more intelligent and superior then sports players? what other insane assumptions do you have about the world?
i think im seriously just going to stop with this thread now
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On March 19 2010 08:08 Hawk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2010 07:34 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:
All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life.
[quote]
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it? Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men. This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job. When did anyone advocate doing this? The closest anyone said was me, saying that sports are better because there's actual social interaction, but even still it's terribly abstract in terms of turning those skills into saving the world or whatever..... Tiger Woods is going to fuck you wife, not cure cancer.
Games have social interaction. Do people not talk and strategize on TeamSpeak or Ventrilo? It may not be face to face, but you don't need to see someone to interact with them. Interaction through a computer is still interaction.
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I think it's an interesting topic and she makes some valid points.
I would perhaps of added some more practical points. There is no doubt that certain types people are better motivated by games and challenges than by social gains. If you could make important goals more "game like" then you could make people more effective at reaching those goals.
For instance, many kids already gain from playing games that directly teach curriculum maths.
They play simple games in school and at home. If you could scale that right up to degree level would it be possibly to fast-track bright children through higher level maths?
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On March 19 2010 08:06 muta_micro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2010 07:34 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2010 07:27 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:22 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:16 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 07:10 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 07:07 muta_micro wrote:On March 19 2010 06:59 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:50 Hawk wrote:On March 19 2010 06:34 eMbrace wrote:On March 19 2010 06:18 Hawk wrote:
All of the benefits discussed by her are more readily obtained by plenty of other activities, specifically ones that don't lend itself to a sedentary lifestyle like video games. Not to mention, they're probably more applicable to every day life.
[quote]
You can learn to communicate by playing lacrosse, talking with teammates to play better. You can learn management by playing quarterback. These basic elements can be found in a ton of things. It's a really, really abstract way to get all these skills she talks about and somehow change the world. If only people realized just how crazy a job running a guild in WoW can be. Not just a casual guild, I'm talking top 10 on the server. Meetings, scheduling, treating people fairly, making sure people don't feel left out, dealing with drama, resolving arguments, making big decisions, merging, deciding who gets cut and who gets recruited, loot systems etc... Yeah, but it's still a really, really abstract set of skills. More than any gaming community, WoW has a bunch of socially inept weirdos. There's a HUGE difference in running a guild online and sitting in an office, trying to do all that same shit with a room of 40 people who are right in your face. Like it's really not even comparable. There's many more practical ways to get those skills, in areas that would be more applicable to whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish. Coordinating meetings between a bunch of people who probably never move 10 feet from their computer and resolving disputes between two angry nerds ain't gonna help you change the world. My theory may sound nuts here and by all means ignore it -- but I've always had this theory that my WoW buddies found really interesting. Great WoW end-game players (the leaders, the contributors, the people who get shit done), when you meet them in real life, are some of the more social people you will meet in your life time. And it only makes sense because you need those social skills to herd the rest of the WoW sheep together to get things done efficiently. Best WoW players I've talked to are incredibly down to earth people with organized lives. And yet the people who spent 60 hours a week in the game are strangely terrible players with poor attitude and a self centered outlook on the game. That stereotypical, socially awkward guy who thinks he's a god in his MMO? Yeah, he's terrible. And I refuse to believe that the "best" WoW end gamers are as you describe them, since they are the ones who are logging like 60 hours a week. (the very best log 60 hours a day its true) WoW "success" is only gained by logging a huge amount of hours a week, so consequently the very "best" are the least social in real life. Then you clearly have no experience with the game, as I've led a top guild and cleared all content on a weekly basis in under 15 hours a week. People who spend 60 just don't have lives or don't know what they're doing. lol Really, you'd be surprised on how easy the game is when you have a guild that knows what its doing. You would spend 60 hours a week looking for people who knew what they were doing. while building the guild is indeed a challenging part of the process -- it's called multitasking. really though, why are you trying to rip on a game you have limited experience with? Because WoW isn't something to be taken seriously. Honestly how can one not rip on it? Right so lets treat highschool soccer captains like business men. This is about leisure activities helping you with areas in life. If you want real experience -- get a job. lol when did I ever say physical sports are superior?? ppl who play games are definetly superior because we're smarter generally. But i definetly have to say soccer players>WoW players, and SC players are the ubermensch.
Show me a scientific study that says gamers are more intelligent than sports players. I'm arguing that games can teach things sports can, but I don't see any evidence that games are more intelligent than sports players.
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Osaka27148 Posts
An interesting juxtoposition with this blog:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=116433
About gaining skills from gaming, I think there is limited truth in that. I would try to distinguish between skills and experiences. I feel like I have experienced things being involved on TL that I would not normally have otherwise. But, I don't think there is much that I have learned that I could not have learned in another environment.
I also think the skills you learn online are narrow in focus, and that other avenues of learning have greater potential and may be a more efficient way to learn. They just might not be as enjoyable.
edit-
On March 19 2010 08:12 Alou wrote:
Games have social interaction. Do people not talk and strategize on TeamSpeak or Ventrilo? It may not be face to face, but you don't need to see someone to interact with them. Interaction through a computer is still interaction.
Stuff like this is pretty tepid. It is interaction, but so is buying my gas, working on a school project, or organizing a family dinner. There is only so much stock you can put in these types of "learning situations".
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EPT
