EPTThe European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 41
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Velr
Switzerland10718 Posts
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Reyis
Pitcairn287 Posts
On July 14 2011 08:57 Velr wrote: Funny, a Greek guy that emigrated to switzerland had an article in the local newspaper saying that the greek people and everything in greek is to blame. well, he is right tbh. | ||
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brokor
Greece235 Posts
However, not everyone in greece thinks this way. of course, not all greeks are to blame for the crisis. state officials have always been corrupt, but people take advantage of them every step of the way if their son needs a job at the government or their father in law dies and they still want his pension. Laws are badly written with countless loopholes that propably all greeks take advantage of . I am 21, and i pay 13k euros in taxes out of a 28k earnings. how can someone build a business or start a family like that? i surely didnt steal anyones money personally or mislead anyone into giving me money. there ar elots of government employees who receive huge wages for nothing. there are lots of government employes who hold more than one position and thus earning numerous wages at once. also a lot of them get once-given amounts of 300k euros for getting retired on top of a ludicrous pensions. taking into account that 18% of greek work force works for the government, it is accepted when people say that the government employees are paid to vote the person that gave them their spot. these people get unlawfully rich and pay miniscule taxes. also there are ties between the bigger industries and businessmen and the main political parties, so they can evade taxes all they want. the political parties themselves have gained millions of euros from such deals, which even show up on their yearly earnings. the situation is as dire as it gets. most of the austerity measures are ridiculous and dont face the problem or the roots of it. greece will never be able to pay back the loans and will default. this is a certainty amongst economists. On the other hand, rioting and violence is never the answer. i live in the center of athens and i know people who come from the providence or the suburbs to throw some marble and some molotovs. it is not their city, they have no sense of society bonds. by rioting all u do is force more response from the government, with unexpected results. others rly likked rioting in 2008 (i protested aswell back then, didnt break anything though) and just never stopped. We have a reason to complain. send a letter to your representator in the parliament and he can set the subject to the government. by rioting and sending away tourists and hampering the economy of the historic center of the city we will never achieve anything but burden the city with 2 more million of expenses for cleaning up the mess. I stay on my couch, read, get educated, get informed, thus no government or extremist radicals can use me for their own ends. all you can achieve by taking part in such a riot is kill some more people like last year. and then their blood is on your hands :/ More on the corruption/post-apocalyptic situation part: (i consider my family to be as lawful and integral and solidary as it gets but we definetely still look over laws to find loopholes to take advantage of when building a house or applying to university. and when the IRS comes around we have to bribe the tax-man in order not to book us on the 400k violations that the law-writers have thought off just to be able to fine you no mater what. maybe we have to go with the flow and perpetuate the problem, maybe we are just as corrupt as the rest of them, who cna judge?) sry for my english it is late and i dont like writing on the pc anyway  | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On July 14 2011 08:57 Velr wrote: Funny, a Greek guy that emigrated to switzerland had an article in the local newspaper saying that the greek people and everything in greek is to blame. well if a greek guy said that then you better believe him, he knows best  seriously now you have to understand that politicians are always working for their reelection so they and their media puppets are going to say any kind of BS. I would expect you people to trust more those thousands who demonstrate. | ||
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brokor
Greece235 Posts
On July 14 2011 09:27 accela wrote: well if a greek guy said that then you better believe him, he knows best seriously now you have to understand that politicians are always working for their reelection so they and their media puppets are going to say any kind of BS. I would expect you people to trust more those thousands who demonstrate. demonstrate=/= rioting. how cna u trust anyone who holds a club or throws a stone? and anyway, thousands of people commit genocides in africa, i will never trust them though. the argument u made is moot. pm me in greek if u think u can make smth out of it i cant see. just because someone is using these young people to achieve their own goals doesnt mean i can trust them. its those same thousands that burned 3 people to death during a demonstration last year just because they worked for a corporate bank. it was "thousands" that commited the wrost crimes in history of man. noone ever acted without a following. from the germans to the red khmer it was always "thousands". maybe you say it is our turn? this is a trend right now actually. all around the media, people talk of katharsis. the germans seeked katharsis during the interwar period aswell. can't live in greece.. should have gone to university abroad. what am i doing here with these clueless people. | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On July 14 2011 09:39 brokor wrote: demonstrate=/= rioting. how cna u trust anyone who holds a club or throws a stone? and anyway, thousands of people commit genocides in africa, i will never trust them though. the argument u made is moot. pm me in greek if u think u can make smth out of it i cant see. just because someone is using these young people to achieve their own goals doesnt mean i can trust them. its those same thousands that burned 3 people to death during a demonstration last year just because they worked for a corporate bank. it was "thousands" that commited the wrost crimes in history of man. noone ever acted without a following. from the germans to the red khmer it was always "thousands". maybe you say it is our turn? this is a trend right now actually. all around the media, people talk of katharsis. the germans seeked katharsis during the interwar period aswell. can't live in greece.. should have gone to university abroad. what am i doing here with these clueless people. brokor you equalize thousands of demonstrators with those few who did the damages. Let me remind you that the cases your mentioned had to do with brainwashed people who follow their leader and doing nothing else but support the official propaganda. But how exactly that is true for greek demonstrators? I mean the government, the main opposition party and 2 smaller parties (the big majority of the parliament) are actually in favor of the austerity measures and neoliberal politics.. Also all major greek media actively support them. So obviously we don't have to do with any kind of thought control here. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Sooner or later one country is going to want to go back to its old currency. I think the Euro can't afford one single country leaving it; it would be a domino effect. Those who believe in the Euro will fight tooth and nail to keep Greece, or Spain, or Italy, or Ireland, or Germany from leaving the Euro, but one day one of them will, and the Euro will go down down down. Might be five years, might be ten, might be six months who knows, but it will happen. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
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brokor
Greece235 Posts
On July 14 2011 10:13 accela wrote: brokor you equalize thousands of demonstrators with those few who did the damages. Let me remind you that the cases your mentioned had to do with brainwashed people who follow their leader and doing nothing else but support the official propaganda. But how exactly that is true for greek demonstrators? I mean the government, the main opposition party and 2 smaller parties (the big majority of the parliament) are actually in favor of the austerity measures and neoliberal politics.. Also all major greek media actively support them. So obviously we don't have to do with any kind of thought control here. Obviously, you dont study in greek universities, nor do you visit any greek blogs or news sites not affiliated with major networks. you talk of propaganda as smth official. just because in the modern world goebbels was the one to put the foundations for propaganda, it doesnt mean that there has to be an official source.(moreover propaganda doesnt only mean the negative msgs but that may be off topic) try spending a day in greek universities. try going to a student council there. those 20y old kids speaking as if they are 50y old marxists, using pre-written phrases to every context since they dont have their own opinion but the one their political party or organisation passes on to them. i study with them, i hang ou with them i even dabbled into student political organisations for a bit when i was 18. they will all tell you the same, they will be the ones camping at the syntagma square and throwing chunks of marble on your head. the other groups that talk of abolishing democracy and everyone is just happy with that since evryone is nostalgic of a little stalin these days. we allow these currents to exist for no reason but to control the universities and a big part of the society. in a students life this is the propaganda you hear everyday. Information and bad advice has a way to reach you. Kids that used to be my friends, when asked why they go and break stuff in the center of Athens(coincidentally they all live in the suburbs. the center is left for the immigrants and the african mob. only few brave of us remain) only come up with a counter-question: "and what do you do to react"? We have reached a point where instead of "the end justifies the means" and the macchiavelian approach to society problems, we have "the means are the same no matter the cause". no matter what happens in the greek society people have to riot. a 15y old falls dead on the other end of a cop's gun: we riot (i understood even though i didnt encourage. my dad works 20metres from the incident i had been there 3 times a week for the past 12 years) tax raise on fuel and VAT raise: we riot the pope visits athens: we riot macedonia raises a statue of alexander: we riot austerity measures 1,2,3 and 4: we riot when did rioting become fun? have i been left out of the loop somehow? how is the greek nation different than the german people or the cambodhian supporters? just because its not the government but rather radical-extremist organisation that propel this propaghanda? i am telling you mate it's not long till there is butchering in athen's streets, just in order to achieve this much wanted and "well deserved" katharsis. we have images of argentina 10 years ago but how bad can it get here? i am afraid really bad :/ and i hope we are lucky enough to survive. Don't fool yourself, 20k people dont camp outside the parliament each on his own. 5k people dont get into battle formation without some guidance and/or support. Just because you can;t spot it doesn't mean it's not there. i am by no means an analyst of the society, just a young student worried about his future, of which i see none in Greece. i am a citizen of Athens, born and raised, and i am tired of seeing my city turn to shreds just so someone can pass a message. i dont want those guys out of the parliament. it is their right to demonstrate according to the constitution, but i dont want them anyway. they are there everyday instead of working/doing smth productive just so people get scared/desperate and turn to those radicals for guidance. it is all a scheme and i am caught in it, so are those out on the streets for the most part. i am not condoning conspiracy theories (turkish agents, americans blahblahblah) but you cant deny there is something rotten in the state of greece these days. | ||
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Tzeval
44 Posts
no matter what happens in the greek society people have to riot. a 15y old falls dead on the other end of a cop's gun: we riot (i understood even though i didnt encourage. my dad works 20metres from the incident i had been there 3 times a week for the past 12 years) tax raise on fuel and VAT raise: we riot the pope visits athens: we riot macedonia raises a statue of alexander: we riot austerity measures 1,2,3 and 4: we riot when did rioting become fun? have i been left out of the loop somehow? People do pretty stupid things, when they think they are in a situation where they can't get out. I don't know anything about the greek population, but i assume it is the same things that gets the french to do such things on a far more regular basis. They feel cheated by those who gover them (if they are actually cheated doesn't matter) and because they don't see who to get out of this situation they want to show their dissatisfaction by rioting. As people get more informed about the way they are governt this is likely to happen more often. We've seen it in spain, in italy and even in germany. When we're lucky this may get us more democracy some day, when that's not the case we just get a few more policestates. I personaly think that the debt crisis will reach a new peak in the next few month and this will solve it. Sounds a little bit contradictory but one has to realize that when a state like spain or italy isn't able to pay it's debt that's a huge loss for the banks which lend the money. And such a big payment short fall is more than enough to trigger another global finance crisis. The banks know that and they won't let it happen. Therefore they will start lending to the states that are on the brink of bankruptcy to better conditions so they can recover with the money of the EU-packet. It will hurt for all the countries that have to undergo this changes because germany and france will push through hard conditions for the money. I hope that states will start to realize that investing in an balanced budget is worth more than money, because it buys .independence. | ||
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lOvOlUNiMEDiA
United States643 Posts
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
On July 13 2011 15:39 Flyingdutchman wrote: There is no way the healthier Eurostates will go with a bond union just because Italy doesn't want (or can't because of politics) to reduce spending. Instead of taking measures to ensure healthy fiscal policy you want the easy/short sighted option of just shifting the burden of risk on to other nations. Your idea can't even work since no nation I can think of will give up its fiscal autonomy to some central agency that would determine the amount of money one can borrow. I'm sorry but this just comes across as a spoiled brat that doesn't want to clean his room. You do realize that the excessive value of the euro has put those states on the road to default in the first place ? I'm not saying the stronger states should give out money, i'm just saying, if germany, france, the netherlands and the other "healthy" states like the euro as it is, they will have to pay for it, nothing comes for free. Without those politcal advances, the monetary union makes absolutely no sense and should be reversed. Italy would be fine if it still had its own currency and could just devalue it, and the same stands for most countries in trouble. The euro was only a first step to a full economic union of europe, if that's not happening, then get rid of it and try again in 50 years. | ||
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accela
Greece314 Posts
"P-I-G-S" ;D | ||
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DND_Enkil
Sweden598 Posts
On July 14 2011 09:22 brokor wrote: I am 21, and i pay 13k euros in taxes out of a 28k earnings. how can someone build a business or start a family like that? i surely didnt steal anyones money personally or mislead anyone into giving me money. Just want to point out that from a swedish perspective that sounds about right. I am 28, earn 30k/year and pay ~12k taxes. You cant start a buisness really, but we have a working goverment that gives help to people wanting to start thier own buisness. Or you loan for it. And as for a family, you either live cheap or much more common in sweden your wife works aswell and pulls in equal salary herself. | ||
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
On July 15 2011 01:35 Ganondorf wrote: You do realize that the excessive value of the euro has put those states on the road to default in the first place ? I'm not saying the stronger states should give out money, i'm just saying, if germany, france, the netherlands and the other "healthy" states like the euro as it is, they will have to pay for it, nothing comes for free. Without those politcal advances, the monetary union makes absolutely no sense and should be reversed. Italy would be fine if it still had its own currency and could just devalue it, and the same stands for most countries in trouble. The euro was only a first step to a full economic union of europe, if that's not happening, then get rid of it and try again in 50 years. I'm sorry but I don't see how unfunded liabilities on government balance sheet has much to do with the value of the euro. Claiming that 'removing monetary policy options is what put these states on the road to default' is just a cop out if they didn't have prudent fiscal policy to begin with. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
What about the individual? I hate most parts of our politics, but can't do anything non-negligible against it. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On July 14 2011 09:22 brokor wrote: And as for a family, you either live cheap or much more common in sweden your wife works aswell and pulls in equal salary herself. That's common in most EU countries, a family where only the husband works is rare. The biggest problem in EU and that prevails to a lot of modern "western countries" is that the system is not efficient, the government keeps spending more money then it gains, the bureaucratic system is long and expensive. Measures are taken to modernize it but everything is still to slow, and how can you expect people to work harder and do more sacrifices when they see chairmans of big companies get salaries of over 500k per year and get paid 2M when they are fired for management errors. Recently in France the chairman of one of the biggest hypermarket chains got nailed because he didn't want to pay the 15mn of pause that are obligatory per day, and at the same time his company raked in more money the the year before that and he got a pretty hefty raise. It's just an exemple but we see stuff like this every day. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On July 15 2011 01:35 Ganondorf wrote: You do realize that the excessive value of the euro has put those states on the road to default in the first place ? I'm not saying the stronger states should give out money, i'm just saying, if germany, france, the netherlands and the other "healthy" states like the euro as it is, they will have to pay for it, nothing comes for free. Without those politcal advances, the monetary union makes absolutely no sense and should be reversed. Italy would be fine if it still had its own currency and could just devalue it, and the same stands for most countries in trouble. The euro was only a first step to a full economic union of europe, if that's not happening, then get rid of it and try again in 50 years. The more I read about it, the more I realize, that the Euro is not the reason for the current crisis, it's just a catalyst. The western world's borrowing scheme as a whole breaks down, the US only has top ratings because of the western bias. A chinese rating agency stripped western nations of their top ratings a year ago. (link). Note that China is the largest creditor of the US, it is their opinion that actually counts. A common Eurobond system would only delay the austerity measures Italy can not avoid in the end. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On July 15 2011 17:31 Perscienter wrote: They? What about the individual? I hate most parts of our politics, but can't do anything non-negligible against it. The state is based on people, anyone in the west can participate and live life as one thinks is best. People who choose the simple cop-out of "I can't change anything anyway" are actually part of the problem. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
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