|
@Tangeng would not then the most appropriate way to encourage a more equitable society be to structure it in a way that eliminated the ability for greed to empower itself? Capitalism rewards greed with increased power/influence, and does not reward altruistic action. Somehow having a capitalist system, which institutionally rewards greed, but simultaneously telling people 'but donate some profits please', seems less effective
In my opinion you are right.. sadly, Star trek is ages away 
The problem is that capitalism give power to the people who have the wealth. It will take a revolution to modify things.
|
An interesting point was made on the radio today that due to the euro's weakness, european economies as a whole are actually in incredibly good shape, their services have never been in higher demand. While france and germany for example suffer from the PIGS needing support, that very problem is helping drive their economies to develop far better than they otherwise would.
So it's not all doom and gloom, for sure.
|
On June 30 2011 10:42 TanGeng wrote:
What I am trying to say is that society should be less materialistic, and appreciate altruism more. The other part I'm trying to think about is how you can differentiate between profits that arrive via greedy behavior verse well deserved entrepreneurial talent.
If society should be less materialistic, then we need to redesign society so that it doesn't end up with materialism becoming the modus operandi. You can't end up with anything but a materialistic society when being materialistic rewards itself with more power and influence, and refusing to be materialistic hamstrings you.
Entrepeneurial talent, as you have defined it depends upon markets, but could we simply define it without reference to markets? If it requires more than pure innovation, and includes the ability to build teams of people that realize an innovative vision, that is enough of a definition.
On June 30 2011 10:45 chickenhawk wrote:Show nested quote +@Tangeng would not then the most appropriate way to encourage a more equitable society be to structure it in a way that eliminated the ability for greed to empower itself? Capitalism rewards greed with increased power/influence, and does not reward altruistic action. Somehow having a capitalist system, which institutionally rewards greed, but simultaneously telling people 'but donate some profits please', seems less effective In my opinion you are right.. sadly, Star trek is ages away The problem is that capitalism give power to the people who have the wealth. It will take a revolution to modify things.
The way people are protesting everywhere...
Revolution doesn't necessarily imply armed conflict, though that is one form it can take. It simply implies a complete paradigm shift.
And hell, it starts with single individuals questioning the logic of capitalism. Connecting with others, joining parallel organizations, volunteering for whatever NGO, writing, standing up for the rights of society that are being trod upon by abuses clothed in market logic.. little local things make a big difference. Propagating the logic of acting locally creates systemic changes.
|
edit: I fucked up quoting/editing post.
|
On June 30 2011 10:58 SaYyId wrote:
OP, you forgot about us. After Greece and Ireland, it's our turn to receive help, or so I think.
|
The way people are protesting everywhere...
Revolution doesn't necessarily imply armed conflict, though that is one form it can take. It simply implies a complete paradigm shift.
And hell, it starts with single individuals questioning the logic of capitalism. Connecting with others, joining parallel organizations, volunteering for whatever NGO, writing, standing up for the rights of society that are being trod upon by abuses clothed in market logic.. little local things make a big difference. Propagating the logic of acting locally creates systemic changes.
I guess you right, once people learn that there is more to live than money, I hope that the children of tomorrow go to University in order to learn and improve them self's, than just a way to make money.
Lets hope that the message is not lost.
|
On June 30 2011 11:11 chickenhawk wrote:Show nested quote +The way people are protesting everywhere...
Revolution doesn't necessarily imply armed conflict, though that is one form it can take. It simply implies a complete paradigm shift.
And hell, it starts with single individuals questioning the logic of capitalism. Connecting with others, joining parallel organizations, volunteering for whatever NGO, writing, standing up for the rights of society that are being trod upon by abuses clothed in market logic.. little local things make a big difference. Propagating the logic of acting locally creates systemic changes. I guess you right, once people learn that there is more to live than money, I hope that the children of tomorrow go to University in order to learn and improve them self's, than just a way to make money. Lets hope that the message is not lost.
heh, its more like, so many people get their toes stepped on that they demonstrate. -- society gets so topheavy that mass movements start springing up--
but awareness of the larger issues is critical. In moments of crises when decisions get made, and structural changes occur-- if a larger awareness of why things got fucked up isn't widespread, you end up with superficial fixes that will only recreate the same crisis at a later date.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On June 30 2011 10:51 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 10:42 TanGeng wrote:
What I am trying to say is that society should be less materialistic, and appreciate altruism more. The other part I'm trying to think about is how you can differentiate between profits that arrive via greedy behavior verse well deserved entrepreneurial talent. If society should be less materialistic, then we need to redesign society so that it doesn't end up with materialism becoming the modus operandi. You can't end up with anything but a materialistic society when being materialistic rewards itself with more power and influence, and refusing to be materialistic hamstrings you. Entrepeneurial talent, as you have defined it depends upon markets, but could we simply define it without reference to markets? If it requires more than pure innovation, and includes the ability to build teams of people that realize an innovative vision, that is enough of a definition.
I think what I am trying to say is that the market (monetary or non-monetary) is a social phenomenon. Think of the local bazaar or the old fashion open air markets. It's a place where farmers sell their produce or craftsman sell their wares when we think in materialistic terms. However there is a market for non-monetary transactions like charity and altruism, where people get status and social recognition instead of monetary compensation.
The bottom line is that market as a social phenomenon responds to the needs of society. Innovation without regard for social demand would be like a mad scientist experimenting wildly without attention to the wants and ethical values of society. I would say that innovative vision is the brightest aspect of entrepreneurship. However, we want to apply pressure to entrepreneurs so that their visions are compatible with the desires of the rest of society so that their innovation doesn't drive our world towards dystopia.
In short, what I am trying to say is that the market as a social phenomenon is a good way to channel the creative energies of entrepreneurs towards positive ends.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On June 30 2011 11:19 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 11:11 chickenhawk wrote:The way people are protesting everywhere...
Revolution doesn't necessarily imply armed conflict, though that is one form it can take. It simply implies a complete paradigm shift.
And hell, it starts with single individuals questioning the logic of capitalism. Connecting with others, joining parallel organizations, volunteering for whatever NGO, writing, standing up for the rights of society that are being trod upon by abuses clothed in market logic.. little local things make a big difference. Propagating the logic of acting locally creates systemic changes. I guess you right, once people learn that there is more to live than money, I hope that the children of tomorrow go to University in order to learn and improve them self's, than just a way to make money. Lets hope that the message is not lost. heh, its more like, so many people get their toes stepped on that they demonstrate. -- society gets so topheavy that mass movements start springing up-- but awareness of the larger issues is critical. In moments of crises when decisions get made, and structural changes occur-- if a larger awareness of why things got fucked up isn't widespread, you end up with superficial fixes that will only recreate the same crisis at a later date.
Oh yeah the other thing that I would warn against is a society that values political power. Political power has far more potential to be dangerous than a materialistic attitude in my opinion.
The current political climate in the US and in Europe appears to be a combination of both obsession with material wealth and with political power. That kind of values means the elites are society are there because of their power and their wealth. That is a horrible combination.
However, I don't think it's a matter of questioning capitalism rather than questioning our materialistic and power-hungry values. Politicians and the wealthy should not be exalted for their power or their wealth but for their creative energies, their inspiration, their altruism, and their champion of peace.
I guess if we equate capitalism with the values of greed and power, capitalism would have powerful negatives. However, I would warn against conflating the freedom that capitalism affords our creative entrepreneurs with such a misguided value system.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
On June 30 2011 10:51 caradoc wrote:
The way people are protesting everywhere...
Revolution doesn't necessarily imply armed conflict, though that is one form it can take. It simply implies a complete paradigm shift.
And hell, it starts with single individuals questioning the logic of capitalism. Connecting with others, joining parallel organizations, volunteering for whatever NGO, writing, standing up for the rights of society that are being trod upon by abuses clothed in market logic.. little local things make a big difference. Propagating the logic of acting locally creates systemic changes.
I agree with this sentiment. It'd be nice to have a revolution in our value system where we overthrow the values that our current elites think we should judge each other by. The value system is how they maintain their status as elites.
If we can value community and altruism more than material wealth and political power, if we can break free from the brainwashed value system that our elites have imposed upon us, it will be a peaceful and bloodless revolution.
I am very sympathetic with the notion that the elites are subverting "market logic" to their own selfish ends.
|
oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google
1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt.
|
On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote:
oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google
1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt.
Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more?
|
actually im wrong :S excuse my last post.
|
On June 30 2011 13:49 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote:
oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google
1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt. Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more?
im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad
|
On June 30 2011 13:58 ERG`ROB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 13:49 Maynarde wrote:On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote:
oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google
1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt. Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more? im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad
Lol. No worries man. Go to bed 
|
On June 30 2011 14:00 Maynarde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 13:58 ERG`ROB wrote:On June 30 2011 13:49 Maynarde wrote:On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote:
oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google
1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt. Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more? im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad Lol. No worries man. Go to bed
You all have the right to make fun of what i just said by putting it on failblog TT ty i will go to bed night world
|
Well deserved entrepreneurial profits are profits that arrive through greedy behavior. If profits need to be differentiated it's the ones that arrive through the initiation of force against ones that arrive through the free market. Profits that arrive through the initiation of force include simple theft but also through coercive government sponsored monopolies. The only way a coercive monopoly can exist is through the initiation of force to block competitors from the market without offering the best service. Today, it is the government that does this. In all of history there has never been a coercive monopoly that has existed without the help of the government or something similar to a government. The solution to this is not to attempt to differentiate the two profits, it's simply to not allow the latter to happen at all.
|
On June 30 2011 15:03 OsoVega wrote:
In all of history there has never been a coercive monopoly that has existed without the help of the government or something similar to a government.
There have also never been anything close to a civilization without a government or some kind of collective/democratic societal policy/law making process. Coercive monopolies have never existed in a free market because there have never been a free market, because it's an utopian/dystopian idea that have nothing to do with reality.
|
On June 29 2011 23:50 Velr wrote:
This question is maybe stupid but...
Why are you blaming the Banks/Countries that give/gave you Loans so you could afford your way to good social systems, your way to good loans (in the public sector) and the miriads of other stuff while not being serious about collecting taxes, constantly voting for the same incompetent politicians and not your fucking selfs?
Yeah, now the Loans kill you, but it was your friggin stupidity that made these Loans necessary to support Greece as long as it did. At the latest when you joined the Euro someone in your country should have realised whats happening.
But well.. Go on, burn some more cars and do other retarded shit because you spent more money than you earned for decades...
Greece's government borrowed in the last decade 490 billion euros
450 went to repay the previous debt(see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114227¤tpage=28#560) and ONLY 20 billions went to our very rich(lolol) social security systems. 20 more billions ....dont seem to appear anywhere on our budgets (siemens scandal any1)
And as a matter of fact in Greece we work our asses off(forget the stupid lies merkel says,let's see OECD stats)
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL
|
Greece was ransacked by foreign banksters (and some other like olympic game contractors and military industrial complex types) using corrupt politicians. The austerity measures will drive the economy down and INCREASE the deficit. The banksters will set their sights on Portugal and Spain following this will in all likihood lead to the collapse of the Euro.
Its easy enough to fix the economy but everything there doing is making things worse. This = fail.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
