On June 29 2011 23:50 Velr wrote: This question is maybe stupid but...
Why are you blaming the Banks/Countries that give/gave you Loans so you could afford your way to good social systems, your way to good loans (in the public sector) and the miriads of other stuff while not being serious about collecting taxes, constantly voting for the same incompetent politicians and not your fucking selfs?
Yeah, now the Loans kill you, but it was your friggin stupidity that made these Loans necessary to support Greece as long as it did. At the latest when you joined the Euro someone in your country should have realised whats happening.
But well.. Go on, burn some more cars and do other retarded shit because you spent more money than you earned for decades...
Greece's government borrowed in the last decade 490 billion euros
On June 29 2011 23:50 Velr wrote: This question is maybe stupid but...
Why are you blaming the Banks/Countries that give/gave you Loans so you could afford your way to good social systems, your way to good loans (in the public sector) and the miriads of other stuff while not being serious about collecting taxes, constantly voting for the same incompetent politicians and not your fucking selfs?
Yeah, now the Loans kill you, but it was your friggin stupidity that made these Loans necessary to support Greece as long as it did. At the latest when you joined the Euro someone in your country should have realised whats happening.
But well.. Go on, burn some more cars and do other retarded shit because you spent more money than you earned for decades...
Greece's government borrowed in the last decade 490 billion euros
If you observe the list you'd notice that while you clock a lot of hours you're not very productive while working them.
Add on top of that Greece is essentially at the very bottom of Europe in terms of education. They have an overly large portion of their work force as unskilled, uneducated bodies.
On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote: oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google 1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt.
Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more?
im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad
yes but the euro is usually worth MUCH more than this if i dont miss my guess
On June 29 2011 23:50 Velr wrote: This question is maybe stupid but...
Why are you blaming the Banks/Countries that give/gave you Loans so you could afford your way to good social systems, your way to good loans (in the public sector) and the miriads of other stuff while not being serious about collecting taxes, constantly voting for the same incompetent politicians and not your fucking selfs?
Yeah, now the Loans kill you, but it was your friggin stupidity that made these Loans necessary to support Greece as long as it did. At the latest when you joined the Euro someone in your country should have realised whats happening.
But well.. Go on, burn some more cars and do other retarded shit because you spent more money than you earned for decades...
Greece's government borrowed in the last decade 490 billion euros
If you observe the list you'd notice that while you clock a lot of hours you're not very productive while working them.
Add on top of that Greece is essentially at the very bottom of Europe in terms of education. They have an overly large portion of their work force as unskilled, uneducated bodies.
On June 30 2011 17:56 HellRoxYa wrote: If you observe the list you'd notice that while you clock a lot of hours you're not very productive while working them.
Yes, we're working 20% more and our productivity is 60+% compared to the US. Though our GDP per person is almost half compared to that of the US. Add to that that actually living in greece is ridiculously expensive(look the Consumer Price Index)
On June 30 2011 17:58 kibeth wrote: Add on top of that Greece is essentially at the very bottom of Europe in terms of education. They have an overly large portion of their work force as unskilled, uneducated bodies.
Where did you read that? To my knowledge greece has one of the highest ratios of college gradutes compared to its size.
As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote: oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google 1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt.
Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more?
im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad
yes but the euro is usually worth MUCH more than this if i dont miss my guess
Bottom was 1.33$ for 1€ a few years ago. 1.50$ per 1€ in 2007. We are pretty much where we always were.
On June 30 2011 17:56 HellRoxYa wrote: If you observe the list you'd notice that while you clock a lot of hours you're not very productive while working them.
Yes, we're working 20% more and our productivity is 60+% compared to the US. Though our GDP per person is almost half compared to that of the US. Add to that that actually living in greece is ridiculously expensive(look the Consumer Price Index)
Sorry, but the PPP is 0.71 where it is 0.81 in Germany with Iceland having 127. You are pretty average in terms of PPP.
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
I really consider the avoiding of Greece bankrupcy to be 95% only to benefit the banks which lent credits to Greece. These are nothing but hidden support for banks...
Interests are the payment made to compensate for the risk, that a credit will not be repaid, in other words for the case that Greece cannot pay them back anymore. Most obviously, Greece is caught in a bad struggle: High debts -> High interest rate -> more debts -> increasing taxes, less investments -> bad for economy & future (when education suffers) -> less income -> more, more, more debts.
I really only see a possible escape in bankrupcy, but I believe that many banks will severely suffer because they do not hold the equity to buffer those risks properly - I cannot proof that, but it's a vague guess from last financial crisis.
Imo insolvence would've been the best way to go for everyone. The Greece and most of the EU countries that now give credits to them (or rather, to the banks indirectly)
On June 30 2011 19:55 BlackFlag wrote: I know, russia today and all that... but what he's saying still holds true.
On June 30 2011 13:46 ERG`ROB wrote: oh my, the us dollar is worth more then the euro right now according to google 1 euro = 1.4427 us dollar. for as long as i have been paying attention to currency, the euro has usually been stronger, but now the us dollar is worth more then the euro. the greeks need a lot of help restructuring their debt.
Doesn't that actually mean the Euro is worth more?
im a bit sleep T_T i cant read properly yes that does mean that is worth more atm lolol my bad
yes but the euro is usually worth MUCH more than this if i dont miss my guess
Nah, the euro-dollar exchange rate isn't very different than usual. Both currencies are not doing too well right now. If you compare with other currencies, this is noticeable. Take for example the Swiss Franc, you now get 1.2 of em for 1 Euro, where a couple of years ago you'd get 1.5.
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
So we loan money we don't have ourselves? We always fail to achieve to stay under the maximum debts you are allowed to make already. That's the reason why everything's gonna crash sometime in the future, it's a huge bubble dealing with money that isn't there.
On June 30 2011 20:05 teekesselchen wrote: I really consider the avoiding of Greece bankrupcy to be 95% only to benefit the banks which lent credits to Greece. These are nothing but hidden support for banks...
Interests are the payment made to compensate for the risk, that a credit will not be repaid, in other words for the case that Greece cannot pay them back anymore. Most obviously, Greece is caught in a bad struggle: High debts -> High interest rate -> more debts -> increasing taxes, less investments -> bad for economy & future (when education suffers) -> less income -> more, more, more debts.
I really only see a possible escape in bankrupcy, but I believe that many banks will severely suffer because they do not hold the equity to buffer those risks properly - I cannot proof that, but it's a vague guess from last financial crisis.
Imo insolvence would've been the best way to go for everyone. The Greece and most of the EU countries that now give credits to them (or rather, to the banks indirectly)
What the hell. They are reigning war on their own people for the banks sake. Cmon...
QFT i don't mind if Greek banks will suffer(i know i know,market will suffer,people will suffer*they already suffer*,there will be a domino among european banks)but European banks who hold greek bonds will have a huge problem!That is why EU insists on those measures but in the meantime they have covered the risk with the increased interest of those loans.
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
So we loan money we don't have ourselves? We always fail to achieve to stay under the maximum debts you are allowed to make already. That's the reason why everything's gonna crash sometime in the future, it's a huge bubble dealing with money that isn't there.
That is true And i don't mean you or the german citizens,I mean,your banks!people are just the victims of this situation.both sides!
On June 30 2011 20:05 teekesselchen wrote: I really consider the avoiding of Greece bankrupcy to be 95% only to benefit the banks which lent credits to Greece. These are nothing but hidden support for banks...
Interests are the payment made to compensate for the risk, that a credit will not be repaid, in other words for the case that Greece cannot pay them back anymore. Most obviously, Greece is caught in a bad struggle: High debts -> High interest rate -> more debts -> increasing taxes, less investments -> bad for economy & future (when education suffers) -> less income -> more, more, more debts.
I really only see a possible escape in bankrupcy, but I believe that many banks will severely suffer because they do not hold the equity to buffer those risks properly - I cannot proof that, but it's a vague guess from last financial crisis.
Imo insolvence would've been the best way to go for everyone. The Greece and most of the EU countries that now give credits to them (or rather, to the banks indirectly)
On June 30 2011 19:55 BlackFlag wrote: I know, russia today and all that... but what he's saying still holds true.
What the hell. They are reigning war on their own people for the banks sake. Cmon...
QFT i don't mind if Greek banks will suffer(i know i know,market will suffer,people will suffer*they already suffer*,there will be a domino among european banks)but European banks who hold greek bonds will have a huge problem!That is why EU insists on those measures but in the meantime they have covered the risk with the increased interest of those loans.
I would agree if there was a way to keep liquidity in the markets during such a crisis. If you remember, the US had to hand out 700 billion $ to keep their markets liquid, Germany 480 billion $ and businesses still suffered from a credit crunch. Considering this, not defaulting seems to be less expensive because you will have to pay anyway. We just have to make sure that banks cover their potential losses in the future.
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
Germany is lending money that will cause it to have to restructure funds to manage deficits and make up for the loss of temporary money that will be paid back decades later.
Why should a country have to carry another on its back? Then again you could say that if that country fails it will eventually affect you, however why couldn't that country have just been more manageable with its money and economy is what most people would say to the whole Greece problem.
On June 30 2011 20:05 teekesselchen wrote: I really consider the avoiding of Greece bankrupcy to be 95% only to benefit the banks which lent credits to Greece. These are nothing but hidden support for banks...
Interests are the payment made to compensate for the risk, that a credit will not be repaid, in other words for the case that Greece cannot pay them back anymore. Most obviously, Greece is caught in a bad struggle: High debts -> High interest rate -> more debts -> increasing taxes, less investments -> bad for economy & future (when education suffers) -> less income -> more, more, more debts.
I really only see a possible escape in bankrupcy, but I believe that many banks will severely suffer because they do not hold the equity to buffer those risks properly - I cannot proof that, but it's a vague guess from last financial crisis.
Imo insolvence would've been the best way to go for everyone. The Greece and most of the EU countries that now give credits to them (or rather, to the banks indirectly)
On June 30 2011 19:55 BlackFlag wrote: I know, russia today and all that... but what he's saying still holds true.
What the hell. They are reigning war on their own people for the banks sake. Cmon...
QFT i don't mind if Greek banks will suffer(i know i know,market will suffer,people will suffer*they already suffer*,there will be a domino among european banks)but European banks who hold greek bonds will have a huge problem!That is why EU insists on those measures but in the meantime they have covered the risk with the increased interest of those loans.
I would agree if there was a way to keep liquidity in the markets during such a crisis. If you remember, the US had to hand out 700 billion $ to keep their markets liquid, Germany 480 billion $ and businesses still suffered from a credit crunch. Considering this, not defaulting seems to be less expensive because you will have to pay anyway. We just have to make sure that banks cover their potential losses in the future.
yeap but with the corruption and the tax avoidance in this country things are more difficult.The thing is that people are protesting not because they do not want a change,but because only the middle class and the pensioners are paying for this!
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
Germany is lending money that will cause it to have to restructure funds to manage deficits and make up for the loss of temporary money that will be paid back decades later.
I might call it investment since Greece is selling everything and i have to tell you that the biggest importer in Greece is Germany.Don't you think that they have thought all about this and made their decision?
Why should a country have to carry another on its back? Then again you could say that if that country fails it will eventually affect you, however why couldn't that country have just been more manageable with its money and economy is what most people would say to the whole Greece problem.
that is a huge topic to be discussed.Corrupted politicians create corrupted supporters who want their politicians to be corrupted and so on...
On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote: As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you?
send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads
Send the bill and you will have a check ready? The check will bounce, you have no money. More to the point you have negative money. This is prime example of the Greek arrogance that he was talking about. GIving a loan to a bankrupt country IS charity, having a mindset that doesn't comprehand this is what drove Greece to the point they are in now.
I've heard/read a lot of Greek claiming in one way or other that EU/US must bail them out because if they don't then the euro will suffer, or there will be another world economic crysis etc etc. What I do not see is any Greek that will come to the conclusion that even if there is a complete global economic meltdown, no matter what, Greece will still have to pay its international debt to the last cent/penny. And they will have to do it in the forseable future.
So, do not worry if Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU and if they will suffer by leaving the eurogroup, leave that to the Germans. What you should worry about is that according to wikipedia Greece is the 3rd biggest weapon purchaser in the world. Another thing you should think about is just the general principle on which banks deal with credits that default. They always claim the securities. If it was the state of Greece that was the security for the debts. You're gonna find yourself ina position selling public assets and/or land/resources/ports very soon.
EPT
