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On June 30 2011 21:19 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 19:54 nothingbutzerg wrote:On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote:
As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you? send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads What you should worry about is that according to wikipedia Greece is the 3rd biggest weapon purchaser in the world.
Also France and Germany are our main arm suppliers and deals got agreed even during this recession.
Btw plenty of those multibillion deals were made behind closed doors and unorthodox ways.
Meanwhile french and german banks have most of our debt.
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On June 30 2011 21:19 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 19:54 nothingbutzerg wrote:On June 30 2011 18:43 TzTz wrote:
As always we're gonna have to pay the bill :-/ Germany should just gtfo of the EU it only hurts us... I also don't get all the hate on germany by greece. Why are we EXPECTED to jump the boat and pay everything? Are you angry at your friends, too, when you make huge debts and they won't go ahead and just pay them for you? send me the bill and i will have a check ready for you!what on earth are you talking about my friend?Get your facts straight and try to be more comprehensive on such matters.If not try reading the whole thread please. Firstly you don;t give money,you loan money at interest.find out at what interest germany borrows and at what interest it lends to greece. secondly Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU so leaving the Eu and the eurogroup will only hurt its' economy! Cheers! edit:there is no hate from greece to germany,don't listen to populist newspapers and some patriotic dickheads Send the bill and you will have a check ready? The check will bounce, you have no money. More to the point you have negative money. This is prime example of the Greek arrogance that he was talking about. GIving a loan to a bankrupt country IS charity, having a mindset that doesn't comprehand this is what drove Greece to the point they are in now.
Sarcasm not detected i suppose.Too bad 
I've heard/read a lot of Greek claiming in one way or other that EU/US must bail them out because if they don't then the euro will suffer, or there will be another world economic crysis etc etc. What I do not see is any Greek that will come to the conclusion that even if there is a complete global economic meltdown, no matter what, Greece will still have to pay its international debt to the last cent/penny. And they will have to do it in the forseable future.
Greece is not in the position of having negotiating cards right now.instead it's selling everything in order to get those loans who will pay at a huge interest.If there is a global economic crysis every country will have to pay its' debt and trust me Greece's debt is nothing compared to what other countries have.I have to repeat,it's not that Greece doesn't want to pay their debts and change through the austerity measures.It's that only a few are called to do so and that you don't have to be completely fucked up!
So, do not worry if Germany is the greatest exporter in the EU and if they will suffer by leaving the eurogroup, leave that to the Germans. What you should worry about is that according to wikipedia Greece is the 3rd biggest weapon purchaser in the world. Another thing you should think about is just the general principle on which banks deal with credits that default. They always claim the securities. If it was the state of Greece that was the security for the debts. You're gonna find yourself ina position selling public assets and/or land/resources/ports very soon.
i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers.
As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese).
Cheers!
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poor greeks :/
driven into huge depts by corrupt politicians, they now have to pay the Bill so that our money system won't crash again.
I can understand greeks rioting over this, but the only solution i see is a new monetary system. But i don't see that happen... all the rich and powerful people on this plant profit too much of it.
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On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers!
Are you serious?
You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!"
Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns.
Then you are saying "We can't stop buying weapons because the sellers are forcing us!"
Yes, a private company forcing a government to buy stuff. Much more likely that the weapons companies bribe officials to keep purchasing.
Lastly, the selling of roads is a far way off. Things that are considered public goods and infrastructure are seldomly privatized. Neither Germany nor the IMF expect that.
Are you sure you aren't american? It sounds like fear mongering and intentional misinformation.
User was warned for this post
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On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers! Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns.
That sounds so easy
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It might very well, which is why Sweden didn't join in. It's a good idea in theory, but you can't trust every country in the EU to handle their finances properly, Greece is a perfect example. What is happening now was expected when the EMU came to be, it's not surprising.
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On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers! Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns. Then you are saying "We can't stop buying weapons because the sellers are forcing us!" Yes, a private company forcing a government to buy stuff. Much more likely that the weapons companies bribe officials to keep purchasing. Lastly, the selling of roads is a far way off. Things that are considered public goods and infrastructure are seldomly privatized. Neither Germany nor the IMF expect that. Are you sure you aren't american? It sounds like fear mongering and intentional misinformation.
please think before you post, I doubt anyone can find the patience to reply to posts like this one in a serious manner
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On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers! Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns.
Obviously you don't know what you talking about and because i don't want to see a turkish guy come over here and start flaming i will just say that you are completely and utterly WRONG and please believe your fellow sc bro 
On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Then you are saying "We can't stop buying weapons because the sellers are forcing us!"
Yes, a private company forcing a government to buy stuff. Much more likely that the weapons companies bribe officials to keep purchasing.
Wrong those deals are first getting closed between governments.
On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Lastly, the selling of roads is a far way off. Things that are considered public goods and infrastructure are seldomly privatized. Neither Germany nor the IMF expect that.
Electricity and water resources are already under consideration.
On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Are you sure you aren't american? It sounds like fear mongering and intentional misinformation.
From what i read in here i think it's the complete other way around.
I would suggest to you and other europeans to remember the quality of informations massive media provide, remember how they idolize dictators, how they support politicians and PLEASE give a second through before you jump on a whole country and its people calling them lazy, corrupt and any other bs just because the TV says so.
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Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:
i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers.
As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese).
Cheers!
Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns.
Yeah I was just about to say that. It sound so stunningly ridicoulous to say "we hate our neighbours so even in times of economical crysis we need da gunz to shot them bitches"
really saddens me....
on a positive note though I am very happy the austerity package got through and the greek gvmt stand more or less unified now. As I see it they diverted the course just seconds before hitting the iceberg, barely escaping a bitter end to a beautiful country.
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The arms race with Turkey is just foolish. There is no way the Greek army could ever win in a conflict with Turkey anyway. Spending billions on defense will get you nothing in return.
Turkey is not going to risk a serious conflict because they are our allies and want it to stay that way. Diplomacy is the only way to go for Greece.
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Fiat currency has a lifespan of around 30-40 years. There will always be more debt and credits than there are of paper equities due to the fractional reserve system.
The Euro is flawed from the very beginning due to it's centralize focus rather than the individual needs of different countries.
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On June 30 2011 22:28 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers! Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns.
Honestly I dont care why Greeks have beef with Turkey. His argument "Greece wants to fight Turkey over X so Europe has to back us!" is BS.
Obviously you don't know what you talking about and because i don't want to see a turkish guy come over here and start flaming i will just say that you are completely and utterly WRONG and please believe your fellow sc bro
On June 30 2011 22:28 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Then you are saying "We can't stop buying weapons because the sellers are forcing us!"
Yes, a private company forcing a government to buy stuff. Much more likely that the weapons companies bribe officials to keep purchasing. Wrong those deals are first getting closed between governments.
So Germany and France force weapons on Greece? Greece can not say no?
Wrong. Sure, Germany and France may exert pressure on Greece to buy German or French hardware, but the intention to buy only stems from the buyer.
On June 30 2011 22:28 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Lastly, the selling of roads is a far way off. Things that are considered public goods and infrastructure are seldomly privatized. Neither Germany nor the IMF expect that. Electricity and water resources are already under consideration.
Well good. Depending on how efficient your system is right now and how it will be privatized, this might be beneficial. Hope you don't get the German system though...
On June 30 2011 22:28 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Are you sure you aren't american? It sounds like fear mongering and intentional misinformation. From what i read in here i think it's the complete other way around. I would suggest to you and other europeans to remember the quality of informations massive media provide, remember how they idolize dictators, how they support politicians and PLEASE give a second through before you jump on a whole country and its people calling them lazy, corrupt and any other bs just because the TV says so.
So of course you are assuming that all the information that contradict your standpoint is misinformation and you are perfectly informed?
I'm sorry, but what the Greek people here have said is the regular socialist propaganda. The only people where you could tell had an economic background or understanding were american.
That's not to say that you are wrong, that is to say that you are likely wrong.
Then, media does not idolize dictators. Never did. The media calling greeks lazy are the boulevard newspapers that only the rabble uses for opinion building.
And never did I personally call Greeks lazy.
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On June 30 2011 22:14 Brotkrumen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:48 nothingbutzerg wrote:i have answered in this thread before for this matter but let me tell you.Greece buys weapons from US Germany and France(do you see where the EU loans will be spent?) because there is a weird situation regarding our neighbors.If the EU as a whole was "aggressive" towards Turkey (considering that the borders of GR are the borders of EU)in these subjects, the Greek government would not have to spend their loaned money to the ones who lent them.And there cannot be a change in weapon policies because as i hope you are aware buyers have tremendous pressure from sellers. As for selling public assets of course and you are right.the last austerity measures predict the complete selling of roads(some of them belong to France companies),airports(the biggest airport is owned by Germans),and ports (some of them are already "controled" by Chinese). Cheers! Are you serious? You are basically saying "We got beef with turkey over a tiny insignificant island! Everyone should back us!" Give the freaking island away and you won't have to buy guns. Then you are saying "We can't stop buying weapons because the sellers are forcing us!" Yes, a private company forcing a government to buy stuff. Much more likely that the weapons companies bribe officials to keep purchasing. Lastly, the selling of roads is a far way off. Things that are considered public goods and infrastructure are seldomly privatized. Neither Germany nor the IMF expect that. Are you sure you aren't american? It sounds like fear mongering and intentional misinformation.
No no no.Are YOU fucking serious????????????????????????????
Greece is buying weapons for a small island?Who gives a fuck about a small island?Who said that everyone should back us and who implied that i and most Greek people have problem with the Turks?Sellers technically create small intensities to push buyers to spend more.And you thinking flow is incomprehensive The selling of roads is already a fact since most tolls are owned (or will be very soon) by foreign companies.i am sorry but in some matters you clearly have no idea!
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On June 30 2011 22:35 Maenander wrote:
The arms race with Turkey is just foolish. There is no way the Greek army could ever win in a conflict with Turkey anyway. Spending billions on defense will get you nothing in return.
Turkey is not going to risk a serious conflict because they are our allies and want it to stay that way. Diplomacy is the only way to go for Greece.
And how EU helping in this hm? EU all this years has been completely silent to this dispute.
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On June 30 2011 22:35 Maenander wrote:
The arms race with Turkey is just foolish. There is no way the Greek army could ever win in a conflict with Turkey anyway. Spending billions on defense will get you nothing in return.
Turkey is not going to risk a serious conflict because they are our allies and want it to stay that way. Diplomacy is the only way to go for Greece.
i used to think the same way, but im a bit more skeptical right now after following this story for a while
i doubt there is any rational reason for armed conflict between developed nations in today's world, but then again one always has to remember that not all people act rationally
as to greek PMs voting for more austerity measures... after this new plan has successfully been implemented and executed (this is extremely unlikely, since a) no one actually wants to buy what we're selling and b) the government has proved its incompetence time and again, no reason to think they'll change), right about at the end of 2015, our debt will be at... 140% gdp, right where it was when this whole crisis began
we're sooo saved man
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On June 30 2011 22:43 Brotkrumen wrote:
So of course you are assuming that all the information that contradict your standpoint is misinformation and you are perfectly informed?
I'm sorry, but what the Greek people here have said is the regular socialist propaganda. The only people where you could tell had an economic background or understanding were american.
That's not to say that you are wrong, that is to say that you are likely wrong.
Then, media does not idolize dictators. Never did. The media calling greeks lazy are the boulevard newspapers that only the rabble uses for opinion building.
And never did I personally call Greeks lazy.
My standpoint might not also be perfect but as i have a direct interest someone would expect that we (greeks) have higher chance to listen more sides of the story and actually tell you how things really working.
What rest europe hear from the media is what will help your politicians to go through this crisis and try to keep their positions even though they have also a great deal of responsibility to all this.
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why do you assume you have a higher chance to listen to more sides of the story ?
you have indeed a much higher chance to listen just to the greek side of the story.
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On June 30 2011 23:36 accela wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 22:43 Brotkrumen wrote:
So of course you are assuming that all the information that contradict your standpoint is misinformation and you are perfectly informed?
I'm sorry, but what the Greek people here have said is the regular socialist propaganda. The only people where you could tell had an economic background or understanding were american.
That's not to say that you are wrong, that is to say that you are likely wrong.
Then, media does not idolize dictators. Never did. The media calling greeks lazy are the boulevard newspapers that only the rabble uses for opinion building.
And never did I personally call Greeks lazy. My standpoint might not also be perfect but as i have a direct interest someone would expect that we (greeks) have higher chance to listen more sides of the story and actually tell you how things really working. What rest europe hear from the media is what will help your politicians to go through this crisis and try to keep their positions even though they have also a great deal of responsibility to all this.
That's called a conflict of interest.
Judges don't take cases with a personal stake, medical personnel don't treat family, journalists don't report stories that affect their private life.
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I think Soros is wrong and here is why: GER and FR would never let it happen, they have too much riding on it and especially GERs pockets are deep enough to keep Greece going to save the Euro. (fun fact, Greeces GDP is comparable to the one of Hessen (or Hesse in English), one of the 16 States in Germany).
The pressure that speculation against the euro creates is partly alleviated through the bailout and if the Euro should fall apart, there WILL be a second recession. Countries like Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland will also fall because their bonds will become worthless, increasing their spread. I'm talking about it in Detail at econcast.net If you are interested in an economics students perspective on the whole thing.
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On June 30 2011 23:55 Gaga wrote:
why do you assume you have a higher chance to listen to more sides of the story ?
you have indeed a much higher chance to listen just to the greek side of the story.
In fact the official greek side expressed by the government and main opposition party pretty conforms with that of the other european governments.
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EPT
