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That's because in Northern countries a lot of women and increasingly men work part time.
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On June 01 2013 22:37 RvB wrote:
That's because in Northern countries a lot of women and increasingly men work part time.
Yeah those stats are incredibly skewed. People that don't work at all are not factored in, but as you say part time employees drag down the average working hours significantly, even though you can argue that more people working makes for a "less lazy" society. But that is a silly metric to begin with.
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On June 01 2013 21:33 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 21:00 SilentchiLL wrote:On June 01 2013 14:33 Sub40APM wrote:On June 01 2013 12:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 01 2013 11:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:LONDON — The unemployment rate across the 17 European countries that use the euro hit a record 12.2 percent in April, and the number of unemployed is on track to reach 20 million by year's end.
The worsening jobs crisis points to the recession that has gripped the euro alliance. Many countries are struggling to stimulate growth while grappling with a debt crisis that's led governments to slash spending and raise taxes.
Unemployment in the eurozone rose in April from the previous record of 12.1 percent set in March, Eurostat, the European Union's statistics office, said Friday. In 2008, before the worst of the financial crisis, the rate was far less – around 7.5 percent.
The number of unemployed rose 95,000 to 19.38 million. The currency bloc's population is about 330 million.
Private companies in the eurozone haven't managed to fill the vacuum created by drastically reduced government spending. In the United States, by contrast, governments have imposed far milder spending cuts and tax increases. Unemployment, at 7.5 percent, is far lower. And consumers and private companies have kept spending, steadily if modestly.
The unemployment rate for the overall eurozone masks sharp disparities among individual countries. Unemployment in Greece and Spain top 25 percent. In Germany, the rate is a low 5.4 percent. Source European Commission has also recently extended the deadline for countries to implement austerity measures. One would think that if you're walking along a street and you see a gunman, the correct response isn't to continue walking towards the gunman more slowly, the correct response is to run the other way. Not if you invested tremendous political capital in the belief that austerity will set you free and also buy into the moral view that its 'lazy' and 'corrupt' Southerners vs the 'thrifty' and 'virtuous' Germanics. In that case it just means you have to whip harder. Does that mean you think that corruption isn't a huge problem in countries like greece or italy? In that case educating yourself about the political career of berlusconi and the way taxes and any issues of the people at government offices in greece were handled for years (and for a large part still are) may help you, I've talked to enough greeks from rural and urban regions and that's not exactly a secret. To be fair, corruption exists in Germany too, although probably not to the same scale (Schroeder and Gazprom is a pretty good example). The OECD has statistics on average annual hours worked in member countries, and in its most recent year (2011) Germany came only above The Netherlands. It was below Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece. ( source)
I generally agree with your post and even though I said nothing about the lazy part in my original post that you adressed, you have to remember that those statistics only account for the total hours worked and "working" isn't always the same as "working".
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On June 01 2013 21:33 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 21:00 SilentchiLL wrote:On June 01 2013 14:33 Sub40APM wrote:On June 01 2013 12:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 01 2013 11:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:LONDON — The unemployment rate across the 17 European countries that use the euro hit a record 12.2 percent in April, and the number of unemployed is on track to reach 20 million by year's end.
The worsening jobs crisis points to the recession that has gripped the euro alliance. Many countries are struggling to stimulate growth while grappling with a debt crisis that's led governments to slash spending and raise taxes.
Unemployment in the eurozone rose in April from the previous record of 12.1 percent set in March, Eurostat, the European Union's statistics office, said Friday. In 2008, before the worst of the financial crisis, the rate was far less – around 7.5 percent.
The number of unemployed rose 95,000 to 19.38 million. The currency bloc's population is about 330 million.
Private companies in the eurozone haven't managed to fill the vacuum created by drastically reduced government spending. In the United States, by contrast, governments have imposed far milder spending cuts and tax increases. Unemployment, at 7.5 percent, is far lower. And consumers and private companies have kept spending, steadily if modestly.
The unemployment rate for the overall eurozone masks sharp disparities among individual countries. Unemployment in Greece and Spain top 25 percent. In Germany, the rate is a low 5.4 percent. Source European Commission has also recently extended the deadline for countries to implement austerity measures. One would think that if you're walking along a street and you see a gunman, the correct response isn't to continue walking towards the gunman more slowly, the correct response is to run the other way. Not if you invested tremendous political capital in the belief that austerity will set you free and also buy into the moral view that its 'lazy' and 'corrupt' Southerners vs the 'thrifty' and 'virtuous' Germanics. In that case it just means you have to whip harder. Does that mean you think that corruption isn't a huge problem in countries like greece or italy? In that case educating yourself about the political career of berlusconi and the way taxes and any issues of the people at government offices in greece were handled for years (and for a large part still are) may help you, I've talked to enough greeks from rural and urban regions and that's not exactly a secret. To be fair, corruption exists in Germany too, although probably not to the same scale (Schroeder and Gazprom is a pretty good example). The OECD has statistics on average annual hours worked in member countries, and in its most recent year (2011) Germany came only above The Netherlands. It was below Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece. ( source) I'm not trying to say that Germans are lazy or corrupt, just that the narrative of southern countries being lazy and corrupt doesn't really tell the whole story. Also, Greece is a special case. It isn't fair to treat Spain and Portugal the same as Greece. I think Italy is somewhere in the middle :p Edit: I meant in the middle in terms of how fair the corruption narrative is, but it also works geographically 
Ha ha that is a quiet interesting statistic, and not to flathering for the dutch lol.
Not sure what to make of it tbh,we do probably have more partime jobs bringing down the average like others already said and maybe also some countrys/labourers overstate the hours they work, like charging 10 hours but only working 6 (corruption). I do agree though that overall we in the netherlands at least work alot less hard then people in the usa. Am not to sure about some other countrys though.
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![[image loading]](http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/youth%20unemployment%202013.png)
My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent.
Source
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On June 01 2013 22:45 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 22:37 RvB wrote:
That's because in Northern countries a lot of women and increasingly men work part time. Yeah those stats are incredibly skewed. People that don't work at all are not factored in, but as you say part time employees drag down the average working hours significantly, even though you can argue that more people working makes for a "less lazy" society. But that is a silly metric to begin with.
If you use the "Average usual weekly hours worked on the main job" chart (there's a link on the left of the page I linked last time) then you can restrict it to only full-time work. Germany does better but is still below Spain (barely), Portugal, and Greece. I also think it would be unfair to include the unemployed because they may just be unable to find a job.
I know the stats aren't great, and that for something like laziness or corruption it is seemingly impossible to have good statistics (the first problem is how to quantify laziness/corruption and then separate laziness/corruption from other possible factors that could influence whatever you are measuring). I merely wanted to point out that the statistics don't support the rhetoric. I don't like how there is this moral spin on pushing austerity on other countries when the evidence doesn't really back up that moral explanation.
Germany want to put a moral spin on it because then there is no reason to feel sorry for those suffering the effects of austerity now. Germany tried to say austerity was justified because these countries had spent more than they had, running high debts and deficits even though Spain had both a lower deficit and less debt than Germany before the crisis started. Now there is this narrative that the German economy is strong now because Germans are hard-working. The implication is that others don't work as hard, and I don't think that's fair. I'm also not trying to say the Germans (or the Dutch or anyone else) is lazy.
Regarding corruption; I would be very surprised if any of the people who benefited from corruption are now the ones suffering. I doubt the youths in Greece are responsible for that corruption, yet youth in Greece are suffering a lot (62.5% youth unemployment according to StealthBlue's source, yikes).
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On June 03 2013 05:39 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 22:45 zatic wrote:On June 01 2013 22:37 RvB wrote:
That's because in Northern countries a lot of women and increasingly men work part time. Yeah those stats are incredibly skewed. People that don't work at all are not factored in, but as you say part time employees drag down the average working hours significantly, even though you can argue that more people working makes for a "less lazy" society. But that is a silly metric to begin with. If you use the "Average usual weekly hours worked on the main job" chart (there's a link on the left of the page I linked last time) then you can restrict it to only full-time work. Germany does better but is still below Spain (barely), Portugal, and Greece. I also think it would be unfair to include the unemployed because they may just be unable to find a job.
Using that chart you will see that the difference is DRAMATICALLY reduced once you look at full time employment only. Using Greece - Germany as an example it goes from 30% down to less than 5% difference in reported working hours. Actually most Euro countries are very close to each other around the 40 hour margin. The stark differences that were so widely published are indeed because of part time work being more common in Northern countries.
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On June 03 2013 20:05 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 05:39 Melliflue wrote:On June 01 2013 22:45 zatic wrote:On June 01 2013 22:37 RvB wrote:
That's because in Northern countries a lot of women and increasingly men work part time. Yeah those stats are incredibly skewed. People that don't work at all are not factored in, but as you say part time employees drag down the average working hours significantly, even though you can argue that more people working makes for a "less lazy" society. But that is a silly metric to begin with. If you use the "Average usual weekly hours worked on the main job" chart (there's a link on the left of the page I linked last time) then you can restrict it to only full-time work. Germany does better but is still below Spain (barely), Portugal, and Greece. I also think it would be unfair to include the unemployed because they may just be unable to find a job. Using that chart you will see that the difference is DRAMATICALLY reduced once you look at full time employment only. Using Greece - Germany as an example it goes from 30% down to less than 5% difference in reported working hours. Actually most Euro countries are very close to each other around the 40 hour margin. The stark differences that were so widely published are indeed because of part time work being more common in Northern countries.
I wasn't trying to say that that Germans work far less. I wanted to say that they don't work far more (or at least there is not a lot of evidence to support the hypothesis that they do).
For me, there is no reason to believe that the Germans are any more or less hard-working than any other country in the Eurozone.
Originally I brought this up in response to a post suggesting a possible reason why Europe is sticking to austerity. Here's the post I'm referring to;
On June 01 2013 14:33 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 12:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On June 01 2013 11:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:LONDON — The unemployment rate across the 17 European countries that use the euro hit a record 12.2 percent in April, and the number of unemployed is on track to reach 20 million by year's end.
The worsening jobs crisis points to the recession that has gripped the euro alliance. Many countries are struggling to stimulate growth while grappling with a debt crisis that's led governments to slash spending and raise taxes.
Unemployment in the eurozone rose in April from the previous record of 12.1 percent set in March, Eurostat, the European Union's statistics office, said Friday. In 2008, before the worst of the financial crisis, the rate was far less – around 7.5 percent.
The number of unemployed rose 95,000 to 19.38 million. The currency bloc's population is about 330 million.
Private companies in the eurozone haven't managed to fill the vacuum created by drastically reduced government spending. In the United States, by contrast, governments have imposed far milder spending cuts and tax increases. Unemployment, at 7.5 percent, is far lower. And consumers and private companies have kept spending, steadily if modestly.
The unemployment rate for the overall eurozone masks sharp disparities among individual countries. Unemployment in Greece and Spain top 25 percent. In Germany, the rate is a low 5.4 percent. Source European Commission has also recently extended the deadline for countries to implement austerity measures. One would think that if you're walking along a street and you see a gunman, the correct response isn't to continue walking towards the gunman more slowly, the correct response is to run the other way. Not if you invested tremendous political capital in the belief that austerity will set you free and also buy into the moral view that its 'lazy' and 'corrupt' Southerners vs the 'thrifty' and 'virtuous' Germanics. In that case it just means you have to whip harder.
I wanted to say that I don't understand where this view came from because it is isn't supported by data of working-hours. (I know Sub40APM wasn't saying he/she believed it was true either). Then SilentchiLL brought up corruption in Greece and Italy. I wanted to say that although Greece and Italy did/do have trouble with corruption is doesn't give the whole story, and is not very applicable at all to Spain and Portugal. Whilst replying I also tried to address the 'lazy' part (although SilentchiLL didn't say anything about it). I probably shouldn't have done that :p
I'm sorry if I led anyone to believe that I was calling Germans lazy or not hard-working. That was not my intention.
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On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source
Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio:
http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/
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On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/
Perhaps a dumb question by me but why is the youth unemployment ratio better than the youth unemployment rate? The rate says how many young people looking for work can find work. The ratio includes many young people who are not looking for a job because they at university or doing training or something else. At least that's how I understand it.
Why is it better to include the young who are not looking for work?
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Zurich15364 Posts
On June 03 2013 22:11 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ Perhaps a dumb question by me but why is the youth unemployment ratio better than the youth unemployment rate? The rate says how many young people looking for work can find work. The ratio includes many young people who are not looking for a job because they at university or doing training or something else. At least that's how I understand it. Why is it better to include the young who are not looking for work?
It's the other way around.
The figure that is always used in media is the total unemployed youth, which also includes people still in education. Obviously that is much less meaningful than the ratio of young people who are seeking employment in the first place but are still without a job.
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Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy.
People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different.
For corruption, it's another matter, but it's pretty simple to say that the souther you go, the more corruption you will find out.
On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/
The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ?
I can't read your article but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. There are no "better ratio" than others, all have advantage and disadvantage. According to the bureau of international labor, someone is unemployed when people are without work and actively seeking work, but in reality it change with every country and institutions, because "being out of work and actively seeking work" doesn't mean the same thing for each institutions. In France, we calculate it trough the ASSEDIC, an institution that deliver some help to find job and through which you have to pass to get your allocations. Suffice to say that when you can't get any allocation, you will pass through this institution to get a work, and then will be counted as "inactiv".
In economy, we usually think that the unemployment refer to diverse set of situations (the "halo" of unemployment") that are usually underestimate by media :
Defining and measuring unemployment is a complex business, heavily dependent on the criteria used. Indeed the boundaries between employment, unemployment and inactivity are not always easy to define (take for example a student who works a few hours per week).
The International Labour Office (ILO) has, however, provided a strict definition of unemployment, which does not take into account various interactions which may exist with employment (occasional work, underemployment), or crossover with inactivity: indeed, some people wish to work but are ‘classed’ as being inactive either because they are not immediately available to work (within two weeks) or because they are not actively seeking work).
People who fall into these categories form what is known as a ‘halo’ around unemployment.
This ‘halo’ is calculated by INSEE on the basis of the Employment Survey.
http://www.insee.fr/en/methodes/default.asp?page=definitions/halo-chomage-bit.htm
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On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ?
It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education.
And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though.
Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures.
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On June 03 2013 23:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ? It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education. And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though. Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures.
In Greece there are more than 25% of youth unemployment without considering people in education man I don't know where you read anything that disagree with that. Look at the International bureau of labor, those are the statistics that everybody agrees on.
![[image loading]](http://www.bls.gov/fls/chart2.gif)
This is the overall unemployment : not specific to youth.
http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm
You also take only in consideration the statistics that you want. For exemple, one could say that the unemployment rate in Greece is vastly underestimated because there is a really low % of women activity (less than 45%, when conservative countries such as Germany are still above 50%) : one cound say that those women prefer not to work because they know that they have no chance of getting a job in the current situation.
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On June 03 2013 23:13 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 23:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ? It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education. And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though. Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures. In Greece there is more than 25% of youth unemployment without considering people in education man I don't where you read anything that disagree with that. Look at the International bureau of labor, those are the statistics that everybody agrees on. http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm
Can you please take a little more time reading what is posted, and then think about replying?
I am not disagreeing with that number at all. Quite the opposite, I am saying that is the number that should be used.
Here, to be absolutely clear, I wish media would mention
- 25% Youth unemployment in Greece instead of 50+%
- 10% Youth unemployment in Europe instead of 25%
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On June 03 2013 22:11 Melliflue wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ Perhaps a dumb question by me but why is the youth unemployment ratio better than the youth unemployment rate? The rate says how many young people looking for work can find work. The ratio includes many young people who are not looking for a job because they at university or doing training or something else. At least that's how I understand it. Why is it better to include the young who are not looking for work?
It depends what information you want. The youth unemployment rate is still a valuable metric. The unemployment ratio can add to that by telling you the relative importance of the youth unemployment rate. That is, the more youth a country has in the labor force, the more important youth unemployment becomes. Particularly when looking at something like social and political stability.
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On June 03 2013 23:19 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 23:13 WhiteDog wrote:On June 03 2013 23:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ? It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education. And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though. Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures. In Greece there is more than 25% of youth unemployment without considering people in education man I don't where you read anything that disagree with that. Look at the International bureau of labor, those are the statistics that everybody agrees on. http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm Can you please take a little more time reading what is posted, and then think about replying? I am not disagreeing with that number at all. Quite the opposite, I am saying that is the number that should be used. Here, to be absolutely clear, I wish media would mention - 25% Youth unemployment in Greece instead of 50+% - 10% Youth unemployment in Europe instead of 25%
No I think you didn't read anything that I said.
There is way more than 10% youth unemployment in Europe. You are arguing that media are overestimating the youth unemployment in europe, I'm showing you plenty of evidence that could defend the exact opposite idea. I linked the OVERALL UNEMPLOYMENT in greece and it's at 25% in 2013 according to BIT, and you tell me that the youth unemployment is at 25 ? Youth always suffer more, because they are what economists call "outsiders".
What I was saying is that you will always be able to find evidences that the statistics are badly estimated, because every indicator are imperfect. The coherent behavior today would be to assume that the statistics you see are under-evaluated, and not over-evaluated.
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Zurich15364 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:23 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 23:19 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 23:13 WhiteDog wrote:On June 03 2013 23:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ? It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education. And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though. Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures. In Greece there is more than 25% of youth unemployment without considering people in education man I don't where you read anything that disagree with that. Look at the International bureau of labor, those are the statistics that everybody agrees on. http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm Can you please take a little more time reading what is posted, and then think about replying? I am not disagreeing with that number at all. Quite the opposite, I am saying that is the number that should be used. Here, to be absolutely clear, I wish media would mention - 25% Youth unemployment in Greece instead of 50+% - 10% Youth unemployment in Europe instead of 25% No I think you didn't read anything that I said. There is way more than 10% youth unemployment in Europe. You are arguing that media are overestimating the youth unemployment in europe, I'm showing you plenty of evidence that could defend the exact opposite idea. I linked the OVERALL UNEMPLOYMENT in greece and it's at 25% in 2013 according to BIT, and you tell me that the youth unemployment is at 25 ? Youth always suffer more, because they are what economists call "outsiders". What I was saying is that you will always be able to find evidences that the statistics are badly estimated, because every indicator are imperfect. The coherent behavior today would be to assume that the statistics you see are under-evaluated, and not over-evaluated.
I can only repeat the numbers the OECD gives me. If you have access to better data feel free to post it. I am particularly interested in the percentage of 16-24yo who are not in education or training and are unemployed.
You could also just read the articles I posted, both are about exactly the difference you see if you exclude people in education. This one first:
http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2012/06/half-of-young-spaniards-are-not-on-the-dole/
Then this one:
http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/
It's really not that complicated.
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On June 03 2013 23:31 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2013 23:23 WhiteDog wrote:On June 03 2013 23:19 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 23:13 WhiteDog wrote:On June 03 2013 23:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 22:56 WhiteDog wrote:Seriously, can we stop with the lazy this lazy that. Just go in Greece a little or stop talking. Greece is not Germany, it's a country that is way less developped in term of industry and all, almost all their comparativ advantages were sold out (all their naval industry) and there are pocket of really poor and underdevelopped agriculture in Greece that just don't exist in Germany, France or Italy. People need to stop making the comparaison between things that are radically different. On June 03 2013 21:11 zatic wrote:On June 03 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:My God, look at Greece's trajectory. That thing isn't slowing down. Since April 2012, Greek youth unemployment has grown by about one percentage point a month. At that rate, it would pass 70 percent in early 2014.
It is suddenly not insane to imagine a youth unemployment rate of 70 percent in the developed world. And that is insane.
It should be noted that some people consider youth unemployment figures a bit hyperbolic. They prefer measures like "youth unemployment ratio, which takes the share of young people who are looking for work but can't find it and divides it by the entire population. Last year, the EU's youth unemployment ratio was 9.7 percent , less than half the youth unemployment rate of 23 percent. Source Since we were on the topic of misleading statistics, that last sentence is very important. The Youth unemployment picture looks much less bleak if you consider the much more meaningful unemployment ratio: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/ The absolute value of the statistic doesn't matter, it's the trend that matter. So it's not misleading at all, or are you implying that more people are pursuing an education since the crisis started in Greece ? It is very misleading to plaster all newspaper headlines with OVER 25% YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT without mentioning that it doesn't exempt people still in education. And no I was not implying more people seek education since the crisis started. It seems a very logical conclusion and is most likely the case. I am not sure why you bring that up at all though. Of course the situation is not good at all, and the trend is worrying. It would be helpful though if media outlets would use the more meaningful and less sensationalistic of the two unemployment figures. In Greece there is more than 25% of youth unemployment without considering people in education man I don't where you read anything that disagree with that. Look at the International bureau of labor, those are the statistics that everybody agrees on. http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemployment_rates_monthly.htm Can you please take a little more time reading what is posted, and then think about replying? I am not disagreeing with that number at all. Quite the opposite, I am saying that is the number that should be used. Here, to be absolutely clear, I wish media would mention - 25% Youth unemployment in Greece instead of 50+% - 10% Youth unemployment in Europe instead of 25% No I think you didn't read anything that I said. There is way more than 10% youth unemployment in Europe. You are arguing that media are overestimating the youth unemployment in europe, I'm showing you plenty of evidence that could defend the exact opposite idea. I linked the OVERALL UNEMPLOYMENT in greece and it's at 25% in 2013 according to BIT, and you tell me that the youth unemployment is at 25 ? Youth always suffer more, because they are what economists call "outsiders". What I was saying is that you will always be able to find evidences that the statistics are badly estimated, because every indicator are imperfect. The coherent behavior today would be to assume that the statistics you see are under-evaluated, and not over-evaluated. I can only repeat the numbers the OECD gives me. If you have access to better data feel free to post it. I am particularly interested in the percentage of 16-24yo who are not in education or training and are unemployed. You could also just read the articles I posted, both are about exactly the difference you see if you exclude people in education. This one first: http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2012/06/half-of-young-spaniards-are-not-on-the-dole/Then this one: http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/06/03/european-youth-unemployment-nowhere-near-25-per-cent/It's really not that complicated.
My problem, as I said before, is that I can't read the article you linked. I need an account or something.
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EPT
