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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 128

Forum Index > General Forum
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SilentchiLL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany1405 Posts
June 04 2013 15:06 GMT
#2541
On June 04 2013 02:44 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 02:41 Rassy wrote:
Are students counted as unemployed for youth unemployment?
O wow i didnt knew that, well then that statistic is nearly completely useless.

No it's not, I don't think he understood how it works.
[...]
I don't think zatic is understanding,

On June 04 2013 18:51 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 18:46 Velr wrote:
On June 04 2013 18:19 WhiteDog wrote:
Only 65 % of the men in a country are considered as "active", and around 55 % of women for a country like Germany and France. That's how it has always work. Most people don't consider that the unemployment rate given on TV are wrong because "they don't take into consideration the fact that almost half the women in this country don't work".
You're just doing that right now, and claiming it is "sensationalistic" because those numbers doesn't please you... I never saw any economist criticizing the unemployment rate for youth when I was studying. Only right now, in the middle of a crisis.

Numbers are always imperfect and rigged, they still means something.


Unemployed rates in Switzerland are normally given by % of actual unemployeds (which hovers between atm ~3-5% iirc)... not "inactives". That number for sure isn't perfect either but should be way closer to the truth than "50% youth unemployement when 25+% of these 50% do not even search/want a job...)..

An "inactive"-rate basically sais nothing at all about how a country is doing. It probably sais more about which "role/family"-model a country has (is it normal for both parents to have an "income"-job and how high is the % of employement). It sais absolutely nothing about the actual situation in a country when not put in context to household-income, productivity and basically any other metric that actually makes sense....

I don't think you understand at all how it work.


On June 04 2013 19:28 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 19:00 Velr wrote:
I understant the number and i also know that "outtaxed" people aren't counted anymore and that this is a problem with the general "unemployed" numbers in most countries.

But a number about "inactives" is imho just not usefull in any way. I have never seen this number in the Media here and thats probably because it's a bullshit number that sais nothing and only gets cited when you want to make a country/area look bad.
Sure, adding in the people that aren't even measured as unemployed anymore makes perfect sense... Adding in students/retireds or people that just don't have to or want to work is just dumb. You'll just end up with numbers of ~50%+ quite quickly and everyone acts all shocked because all you read is: "Youth unemployment over 50%!!!"... Its really just sensationalism and nothing more.

No you don't understand, the 50% unemployment is WITHOUT the inactivity.


Dude... Attitude.
possum, sed nolo - Real men play random. ___ "Who the fuck is Kyle?!" C*****EX
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
June 04 2013 15:12 GMT
#2542
On June 05 2013 00:06 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 02:44 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 02:41 Rassy wrote:
Are students counted as unemployed for youth unemployment?
O wow i didnt knew that, well then that statistic is nearly completely useless.

No it's not, I don't think he understood how it works.
[...]
I don't think zatic is understanding,

Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 18:51 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 18:46 Velr wrote:
On June 04 2013 18:19 WhiteDog wrote:
Only 65 % of the men in a country are considered as "active", and around 55 % of women for a country like Germany and France. That's how it has always work. Most people don't consider that the unemployment rate given on TV are wrong because "they don't take into consideration the fact that almost half the women in this country don't work".
You're just doing that right now, and claiming it is "sensationalistic" because those numbers doesn't please you... I never saw any economist criticizing the unemployment rate for youth when I was studying. Only right now, in the middle of a crisis.

Numbers are always imperfect and rigged, they still means something.


Unemployed rates in Switzerland are normally given by % of actual unemployeds (which hovers between atm ~3-5% iirc)... not "inactives". That number for sure isn't perfect either but should be way closer to the truth than "50% youth unemployement when 25+% of these 50% do not even search/want a job...)..

An "inactive"-rate basically sais nothing at all about how a country is doing. It probably sais more about which "role/family"-model a country has (is it normal for both parents to have an "income"-job and how high is the % of employement). It sais absolutely nothing about the actual situation in a country when not put in context to household-income, productivity and basically any other metric that actually makes sense....

I don't think you understand at all how it work.


Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 19:28 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 19:00 Velr wrote:
I understant the number and i also know that "outtaxed" people aren't counted anymore and that this is a problem with the general "unemployed" numbers in most countries.

But a number about "inactives" is imho just not usefull in any way. I have never seen this number in the Media here and thats probably because it's a bullshit number that sais nothing and only gets cited when you want to make a country/area look bad.
Sure, adding in the people that aren't even measured as unemployed anymore makes perfect sense... Adding in students/retireds or people that just don't have to or want to work is just dumb. You'll just end up with numbers of ~50%+ quite quickly and everyone acts all shocked because all you read is: "Youth unemployment over 50%!!!"... Its really just sensationalism and nothing more.

No you don't understand, the 50% unemployment is WITHOUT the inactivity.


Dude... Attitude.

Why ? Because I tell people they don't understand when... they don't understand ? Inactive are not counted as unemployed as almost everyone suggested at one point in the last 2 pages.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Feartheguru
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1334 Posts
June 04 2013 16:22 GMT
#2543
On June 05 2013 00:06 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 02:44 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 02:41 Rassy wrote:
Are students counted as unemployed for youth unemployment?
O wow i didnt knew that, well then that statistic is nearly completely useless.

No it's not, I don't think he understood how it works.
[...]
I don't think zatic is understanding,

Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 18:51 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 18:46 Velr wrote:
On June 04 2013 18:19 WhiteDog wrote:
Only 65 % of the men in a country are considered as "active", and around 55 % of women for a country like Germany and France. That's how it has always work. Most people don't consider that the unemployment rate given on TV are wrong because "they don't take into consideration the fact that almost half the women in this country don't work".
You're just doing that right now, and claiming it is "sensationalistic" because those numbers doesn't please you... I never saw any economist criticizing the unemployment rate for youth when I was studying. Only right now, in the middle of a crisis.

Numbers are always imperfect and rigged, they still means something.


Unemployed rates in Switzerland are normally given by % of actual unemployeds (which hovers between atm ~3-5% iirc)... not "inactives". That number for sure isn't perfect either but should be way closer to the truth than "50% youth unemployement when 25+% of these 50% do not even search/want a job...)..

An "inactive"-rate basically sais nothing at all about how a country is doing. It probably sais more about which "role/family"-model a country has (is it normal for both parents to have an "income"-job and how high is the % of employement). It sais absolutely nothing about the actual situation in a country when not put in context to household-income, productivity and basically any other metric that actually makes sense....

I don't think you understand at all how it work.


Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 19:28 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 04 2013 19:00 Velr wrote:
I understant the number and i also know that "outtaxed" people aren't counted anymore and that this is a problem with the general "unemployed" numbers in most countries.

But a number about "inactives" is imho just not usefull in any way. I have never seen this number in the Media here and thats probably because it's a bullshit number that sais nothing and only gets cited when you want to make a country/area look bad.
Sure, adding in the people that aren't even measured as unemployed anymore makes perfect sense... Adding in students/retireds or people that just don't have to or want to work is just dumb. You'll just end up with numbers of ~50%+ quite quickly and everyone acts all shocked because all you read is: "Youth unemployment over 50%!!!"... Its really just sensationalism and nothing more.

No you don't understand, the 50% unemployment is WITHOUT the inactivity.


Dude... Attitude.


What's wrong with his attitude? He can't tell someone they're wrong anymore?
Don't sweat the petty stuff, don't pet the sweaty stuff.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-04 17:59:56
June 04 2013 17:59 GMT
#2544
Nothing wrong with his attitude,its obviously a subject he is pasionate about and knows alot about.
Annyway, ty for explaining it all. It now is a bit more clear to me
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
June 05 2013 15:26 GMT
#2545
On June 05 2013 02:59 Rassy wrote:
Nothing wrong with his attitude,its obviously a subject he is pasionate about and knows alot about.
Annyway, ty for explaining it all. It now is a bit more clear to me

Yeah it's true that I am maybe a little too implicated in all that, but in these time, it feels like science (I'm referring to economy in this matter) is always used - partially - to support one's political belief.
See for exemple how people used the Rogoff / Reinhart paper on the impact of debt on economical growth, and how the mistake they made is now used by the opponent of "rigor" to show how falsely scientific that position is.

Most of that would have been completly non existent in the media if people would stop this habit of using economic theory for their own agenda and actually learn economy - which means both learning how conflictual most economic "laws" are, and how limited most of its "teaching" can be.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 06 2013 17:18 GMT
#2546
NPR just put out a story that shows some satellite shots of Spain pre and post boom. Pretty neat stuff (run the slider over the pics to see old vs new).

From The Sky, A View Of Spain's Boom And Bust

Like the U.S. and many other Western countries, Spain's building boom in the previous decade was a major factor in its economic implosion. And now a trio of civil engineers in Spain has created a website that offers a dramatic before-and-after view of the country's construction bubble.

Called Nación Rotonda — "Roundabout Nation," in Spanish — the site displays before-and-after aerial photos of dozens of Spanish towns. Half-built condos, "roads to nowhere" and urban sprawl are juxtaposed with open farmland and forests that stood in their place just a few years ago.

Link

Nacion Rotonda link (NPR's source) here.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 08 2013 03:42 GMT
#2547
Time to Bet on a Greekovery?

This may not seem like the best time to invest in Greece. The economy has shrunk by more than one-fifth since 2008 and, if private forecasters surveyed by Bloomberg are correct, will see a cumulative decline of 25 percent over seven years -- a catastrophe no rich country has experienced in peacetime since the Great Depression.

On the other hand, as Baron Rothschild put it, the best buying opportunities present themselves "when there is blood in the streets." Those who purchased 30-year Greek government bonds last July (such as Dan Loeb's Third Point) have quadrupled their money. Greek share prices have doubled over the past 12 months.

My colleague Megan Green doesn't think so. Yet the bullish case was made pretty forcefully on June 5 at the Greek Investment Forum in New York City, which I attended. There were two main arguments. First, fiscal tightening, which has done so much to exacerbate the downturn, is set to come to an end sometime in the next year. Christos Staikouras, the alternate minister of finance, noted that this was the largest and fastest budget consolidation ever recorded: Government spending has dropped more than 21 percent since 2009. The International Monetary Fund now forecasts that Greece will have the largest structural budget surplus in the rich world by 2014.

The other bullish argument is that the Greek government has addressed many of the country's "structural imbalances." According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, Greece has begun more significant reforms than any other rich country over the past few years, and the World Bank ranked Greece eighth in its "most improved in doing business" survey. ...

[image loading]

Full story here.

Let's hope the optimists are right on this one...
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
June 08 2013 03:50 GMT
#2548
Baron rothschild is a title in the united kingdom. It doesn't refer to any specific person just the rothschild family branch in england.

that being said if greece recoveres too soon it risks becoming an economic sucess story for the austerity movement in europe.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 08 2013 04:04 GMT
#2549
On June 08 2013 12:50 Sermokala wrote:
Baron rothschild is a title in the united kingdom. It doesn't refer to any specific person just the rothschild family branch in england.

that being said if greece recoveres too soon it risks becoming an economic sucess story for the austerity movement in europe.

They'd have to recover to an extreme degree before austerity could realistically be called a "success." If they brought down unemployment to 8% in 4-5 years, then it would be a "maybe." Then you have to look at GDP as well, needing to reach their peak of ~$341B (USD) relatively soon while still showing signs of strong growth. If you kick a country like Greece down a gigantic pit, you can't look at them standing up at the bottom and act like the kick that didn't kill them gave them the strength to stand at the bottom of the pit.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
June 08 2013 04:58 GMT
#2550
On June 08 2013 12:50 Sermokala wrote:
Baron rothschild is a title in the united kingdom. It doesn't refer to any specific person just the rothschild family branch in england.

that being said if greece recoveres too soon it risks becoming an economic sucess story for the austerity movement in europe.

I'm sure the IMF would love it. They could cancel their apology tour
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
June 08 2013 07:34 GMT
#2551
On June 08 2013 12:50 Sermokala wrote:
Baron rothschild is a title in the united kingdom. It doesn't refer to any specific person just the rothschild family branch in england.

that being said if greece recoveres too soon it risks becoming an economic sucess story for the austerity movement in europe.

Recovering from an 18 % drop in GDP is likely a few years in the future given the continuing fall in GDP and the fact that 4 % yearly increase is very good. Hoping Greece is completely back on track by 2020 seems more like a fantasy.

Don't get me wrong: The austerity has forced the countries in EU to actually do something to increase competitiveness which will be very good in the long run. In short terms, though, it is exacerbating the crisis heavily!
Repeat before me
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6642 Posts
June 08 2013 14:25 GMT
#2552
[image loading]
The last year hasn't gone too well for the Eurozone...oh well, there's hope yet.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 11 2013 20:27 GMT
#2553
ATHENS, Greece — Greece will temporarily close down all its state-run TV and radio stations with a loss of around 2,500 jobs as part of its cost-cutting drive demanded by the bailed-out country's international creditors, the government said Tuesday.

The government said the company will reopen "as soon as possible" with a smaller workforce. It wasn't immediately clear how long that would take, and whether all stations would reopen.

The move heralds the first direct public sector layoffs in more than three years of painful austerity, which have already cost nearly 1 million private sector jobs. The shocking announcement widened cracks in the year-old conservative-led governing coalition, with both minority partners condemning the suspension of Hellenic Broadcasting Corp., or ERT.

"I was hoping up until the last minute that the reports were not true. It's unbelievable," news reader Stavroula Christofiliea said on ERT's main TV live broadcast moments after the news was announced.

About 2,000 ERT employees, other media workers, anti-austerity activists, opposition lawmakers and union leaders gathered in protest at the company headquarters in the Athens suburb of Aghia Paraskevi.

Government spokesman Simos Kedikoglou – a former state TV journalist – described ERT as a "haven of waste" and said its TV and radio signals would go dead early Wednesday. He said its 2,500 employees will be compensated.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
June 11 2013 21:10 GMT
#2554
Our economy is bad. lets put another 2500 people on the street so they cant pay there mortgage and get things even worse.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Bermuda
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium411 Posts
June 11 2013 21:47 GMT
#2555
On June 12 2013 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:
Our economy is bad. lets put another 2500 people on the street so they cant pay there mortgage and get things even worse.


They have to do it now because they didn't do it when the economy was good. And they wouldn't do it either if the country was out of the crisis.

But if I think about it for a second : 2500 people working for state sponsored medias, it doesn't make any sense for a country the size of Greece. I have no problem believing the governement spokeman when he says that it's a haven of waste.

Now it's true that due to the timing it will not help the crisis... that's for sure. We should restart the economy first.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
June 11 2013 21:53 GMT
#2556
On June 12 2013 06:47 Bermuda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:
Our economy is bad. lets put another 2500 people on the street so they cant pay there mortgage and get things even worse.


They have to do it now because they didn't do it when the economy was good. And they wouldn't do it either if the country was out of the crisis.

But if I think about it for a second : 2500 people working for state sponsored medias, it doesn't make any sense for a country the size of Greece. I have no problem believing the governement spokeman when he says that it's a haven of waste.

Now it's true that due to the timing it will not help the crisis... that's for sure. We should restart the economy first.


Ofc bloat is bad and should be changed when possible but as you say the timing is bad. Its the entire problem with austerity, Your not going to recover from a crisis by putting more and more people on the streets so they to cannot pay there bills. It just creates a chain effect.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Bermuda
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium411 Posts
June 11 2013 21:59 GMT
#2557
On June 12 2013 06:53 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 12 2013 06:47 Bermuda wrote:
On June 12 2013 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:
Our economy is bad. lets put another 2500 people on the street so they cant pay there mortgage and get things even worse.


They have to do it now because they didn't do it when the economy was good. And they wouldn't do it either if the country was out of the crisis.

But if I think about it for a second : 2500 people working for state sponsored medias, it doesn't make any sense for a country the size of Greece. I have no problem believing the governement spokeman when he says that it's a haven of waste.

Now it's true that due to the timing it will not help the crisis... that's for sure. We should restart the economy first.


Ofc bloat is bad and should be changed when possible but as you say the timing is bad. Its the entire problem with austerity, Your not going to recover from a crisis by putting more and more people on the streets so they to cannot pay there bills. It just creates a chain effect.


Yeah, I completly agree with that. The US were a lot more agile with the rebooting of their economy (which has it's own downsides but it's another story).

My hopes are that after the german elections in september we'll see some real efforts to shift from austerity to restarting the economy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 13 2013 03:49 GMT
#2558
Greek workers will stage a nationwide strike, forcing hospitals to work on emergency staff and disrupting transport, in protest against the "sudden death" of state broadcaster ERT, switched off in the middle of the night by the government.

Greece's two biggest labour unions plan to bring much of the country to a standstill during the 24-hour strike, beginning on Thursday, against Prime Minister Antonis Samaras's decision to close down ERT, which they describe as "coup-like move ... to gag unbiased information".

The government described its decision to shut the 75-year-old ERT as a temporary move before its relaunch in slimmed-down form.

Simos Kedikoglou, spokesman for the government and a former state TV journalist, has described ERT as a "haven of waste".

"ERT is a typical example of unique lack of transparency and incredible waste. And that ends today," he said.

However, the move has angered the coalition partners keeping Samaras in power, restoring an atmosphere of crisis in a country that had seemed to be emerging from a political meltdown caused by near-bankruptcy.

"In a systematic and autocratic way, the government has abolished the rights of workers and citizens one by one," said the public-sector union ADEDY, which is organising the walkout with its private-sector sister union GSEE.

"We call on every worker and every citizen to fight to overthrow the government's catastrophic plans."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
SilentchiLL
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-13 04:59:33
June 13 2013 04:58 GMT
#2559
On June 13 2013 12:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Greek workers will stage a nationwide strike, forcing hospitals to work on emergency staff and disrupting transport, in protest against the "sudden death" of state broadcaster ERT, switched off in the middle of the night by the government.

Greece's two biggest labour unions plan to bring much of the country to a standstill during the 24-hour strike, beginning on Thursday, against Prime Minister Antonis Samaras's decision to close down ERT, which they describe as "coup-like move ... to gag unbiased information".

The government described its decision to shut the 75-year-old ERT as a temporary move before its relaunch in slimmed-down form.

Simos Kedikoglou, spokesman for the government and a former state TV journalist, has described ERT as a "haven of waste".

"ERT is a typical example of unique lack of transparency and incredible waste. And that ends today," he said.

However, the move has angered the coalition partners keeping Samaras in power, restoring an atmosphere of crisis in a country that had seemed to be emerging from a political meltdown caused by near-bankruptcy.

"In a systematic and autocratic way, the government has abolished the rights of workers and citizens one by one," said the public-sector union ADEDY, which is organising the walkout with its private-sector sister union GSEE.

"We call on every worker and every citizen to fight to overthrow the government's catastrophic plans."


Source


I know that people do stupid things in times of crisis and I know that spending cuts often hurt, but going on strike every time that happens only makes things worse and after years in this crisis the worker unions still don't seem to understand that.
Or maybe they do and just don't care, I really hope that the protests remain small though, ERT had about 2500 employees, which seems like quite a lot for such a small country and a station that isn't really seen or heard outside of it.
possum, sed nolo - Real men play random. ___ "Who the fuck is Kyle?!" C*****EX
Bermuda
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium411 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-13 06:42:40
June 13 2013 06:41 GMT
#2560
On June 13 2013 13:58 SilentchiLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2013 12:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Greek workers will stage a nationwide strike, forcing hospitals to work on emergency staff and disrupting transport, in protest against the "sudden death" of state broadcaster ERT, switched off in the middle of the night by the government.

Greece's two biggest labour unions plan to bring much of the country to a standstill during the 24-hour strike, beginning on Thursday, against Prime Minister Antonis Samaras's decision to close down ERT, which they describe as "coup-like move ... to gag unbiased information".

The government described its decision to shut the 75-year-old ERT as a temporary move before its relaunch in slimmed-down form.

Simos Kedikoglou, spokesman for the government and a former state TV journalist, has described ERT as a "haven of waste".

"ERT is a typical example of unique lack of transparency and incredible waste. And that ends today," he said.

However, the move has angered the coalition partners keeping Samaras in power, restoring an atmosphere of crisis in a country that had seemed to be emerging from a political meltdown caused by near-bankruptcy.

"In a systematic and autocratic way, the government has abolished the rights of workers and citizens one by one," said the public-sector union ADEDY, which is organising the walkout with its private-sector sister union GSEE.

"We call on every worker and every citizen to fight to overthrow the government's catastrophic plans."


Source


I know that people do stupid things in times of crisis and I know that spending cuts often hurt, but going on strike every time that happens only makes things worse and after years in this crisis the worker unions still don't seem to understand that.
Or maybe they do and just don't care, I really hope that the protests remain small though, ERT had about 2500 employees, which seems like quite a lot for such a small country and a station that isn't really seen or heard outside of it.


Rodi Kratsa-Tsagaropoulou, the greek vice president in the european parliament gave an interview on Twizz Radio (small belgian radio). Here is what she had to say.

There were six different accounting departements in ERT, travel expenses were completly out of hand, workers were having a public servant status with special privileges, same for technical teams. Some contracts due to their nature were not stoppable. And in fact, the union were already in strike, asking for... a raise.

As a member of Néa Dimokratía (party in power in Greece right now) she's obvioulsy biased in favor of the government, so keep that in mind when you make your own opinion.
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