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On November 24 2009 09:37 Jayve wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote:What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed  . There are things far far worst then being dead. Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death. Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote:If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery. OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things  I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead. And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
So if you were to be in unbelievable physical pains while your body decomposed for the next 40 years and then die, would that life make any sense? Would you live it only for the sake of living it, even tho every second of your existence is nothing but pointless suffering?
We make judgments about death because there is nobody/nothing else to make them for us. And my judgment is that non-existence, a neutral, is far more desirable then the state of suffering, a negative.
On November 24 2009 10:13 Ha.cK wrote:
I'm pretty sure 99% of people would rather be dead than be in the same situation as this person for 23 years regardless if they were American or not (or any other factor in upbringing).
And still the basic human right, the right to die, is being denied to human beings in pretty much all countries with a couple of exceptions.
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Obviously very few people would deny that there is nothing worse than death, but to claim that there is a standard basis for determining what those conditions are is senseless and depends entirely on the value system of the person in question.
I do believe some of us utilitarian-rationalists insisting on the desirable value of expedient death may on some other occasion exercise their Darwinian reason to suggest that self-preservation is the supreme imperative of all life.
In this respect at least we may differentiate human beings from all other animals; human beings are the only creatures which commit suicide. They are probably the only creatures conscious of their own mortality.
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On November 24 2009 10:39 mucker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 10:26 Grobyc wrote:
I would sue.
For a lot.
Or at least try =/, that would suck hard. On what basis would you sue? For not developing state of the art brain scanning technology 23 years faster?
Hmm, good point lol.
K, let me put it this would, I would feel like suing.
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You cannot sue. The doctors have not violated any duty of care, nor have the failed to act in accordance with standard medical, nor did they infringe up on any perceived fiduciary duty (which is not fully fledged law in europe anyway). Sometimes, stuff like this happens because society was not developed enough to deal with it at the time - are you realy suggesting that a doctor who did his/her best at the time, should be financially crippled over two decades later?
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
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On November 24 2009 10:35 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +A) Be tortured with needles, knives, poisons, etc. in indescribable pain as your life slowly faded while your torturers slapped you with your own kidneys, jammed needles in your eyes, and poured irritants on open wounds all over your body, before finally dying 12 hours later.
B) Be shot in the head and die within seconds, your brain fully ceasing function after a minute or so maximum? Since your entire premise was that there are things worse than death, using death as the consequence of either decision makes for a poor example. Anyhow, the entire story has proven that this man's situation, however desperate, was not hopeless, therefore such drastic hypotheticals are irrelevant to the story.
It's actually a good example because if death is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you, you'd choose option A to live as long as possible.
The man in this article knows he will die eventually, whether he thinks it's worth living until that point or not is up to him.
If everyday is torture for him, I'd imagine he'd want to die. Although being as he isn't begging to die after 23 years, maybe he doesn't mind just chilling there.
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On November 24 2009 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote:
In this respect at least we may differentiate human beings from all other animals; human beings are the only creatures which commit suicide.
For real? I'm increasingly buying into the theory that Molke is a random pharse generator. If I had enough time and smarts I seriously want to build a MolkeWords generator applet where you enter a keyword and it churns out a blob of Molke-esque text. And if you enter "China" and it will explode in your face.
The guy has mental fortitude and patience for sure. To be able to remember the language after so many years without meaningful interaction is quite a feat by itself (but then again what he type now may hardly be what he initially is capable of). It also stomps on all the celebrity gossip mag stories of 'so and so is in for 3 months and is barely sane in detention/prison'. Weak sauce.
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it'd be terrible if he got a song stuck in his head
among other things
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For real? I'm increasingly buying into the theory that Molke is a random pharse generator.
What are you complaining about? In any given thread such as this, most posts are more or less redundant copies of one another. At least I'm only redundant unto myself.
But you ought to know that. After all, without you, there would be another thousand "Moltke is a phrasemonger" parrots racing to the yoke, but without me, what would come of all that stimulating character criticism?
It also stomps on all the celebrity gossip mag stories of 'so and so is in for 3 months and is barely sane in detention/prison'. Weak sauce.
You're becoming quite a celebrity gossip mag yourself, you know.
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On November 24 2009 09:37 Jayve wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote:What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed . There are things far far worst then being dead. Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death. Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote:If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery. OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead. And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
You asked TL to explain to you the mentality of someone who would rather die than be locked-in for 23 years; I provided a little more detail, from the perspective of someone who has considered the matter in the context of my own life. I even tried to provide the optimistic perspective that at least you have never suffered anything as terrible as death. Plenty of other people in this thread have given you even better answers IMO.
Given that intention I really don't know how to interpret your post. It sounds like you're trying to argue against the position you claimed to be curious about, and in support of your argument you offer a laundry list of all the horrors you have endured without ever wanting to die. Clearly, you should keep your own viewpoint on the matter, and I think it's just as clear that you should get off my back for keeping mine. You will never change my past experiences by showing off yours, so I don't see the point of your post other than to brag/troll.
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How communication is all that is ever needed one must not throw away such a gift.
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This is a more complex issue than it appears, and than the media is presenting it as.
Its not actually clear that he is conscious at all!
The report on msnbc clearly shows that the communication this man has 'given' was delivered by a 'facilitator' via 'Facilitated Communication.' Which is a bunch of nonsense.
Take a look here:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/783-this-cruel-farce-has-to-stop.html
I'm not declaring that he isn't conscious, simply that the articles that are being thrown about may be jumping to conclusions.
(That HuffPo article is especially bad, claiming he has any actual messages he has relayed, there is no way he did that.)
EDIT: randi.org seems to be a bit slow right now, but the link does work.
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On November 24 2009 13:37 PunitiveDamages wrote:This is a more complex issue than it appears, and than the media is presenting it as. Its not actually clear that he is conscious at all! The report on msnbc clearly shows that the communication this man has 'given' was delivered by a 'facilitator' via 'Facilitated Communication.' Which is a bunch of nonsense. Take a look here: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/783-this-cruel-farce-has-to-stop.htmlI'm not declaring that he isn't conscious, simply that the articles that are being thrown about may be jumping to conclusions. (That HuffPo article is especially bad, claiming he has any actual messages he has relayed, there is no way he did that.)
link not working for me
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No idea how he didn't go crazy... I definitely would have.
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Damn it. Another one of my fears got confirmed as reality. I really should start carrying suicide pill tucked inside my mouth..
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United States2822 Posts
The issue with death is that it is permanent and does not only affect the person at hand but a number of others that they have relationships with as well. Thinking about death is not only thinking about the afterlife or thinking about the lack of pain - it's thinking about the hole that will be left with your passing - how family and friends will be affected. Physical Torture vs. Death is different in that regard.
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But in this case, after 23 years, wouldn't your family be at peace with the relative's death? Was there really any hope amongst the family that he would someday break out of the curse? The remaining relationships would be at such a brittle state that I wouldn't have to reconsider if I had the option to pull off my own plug. Being paralyzed for 23 years is not a life.
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On November 25 2009 02:20 haster27 wrote:
Damn it. Another one of my fears got confirmed as reality. I really should start carrying suicide pill tucked inside my mouth..
so that you win US$200 mi in the lotto, trip due to hype and swallow the pill. :p
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A living will also might be a bit more practical~~
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EPT
