For 23 years Rom Houben was trapped in his own body, unable to communicate with his doctors or family. They presumed he was in a vegetative state following a near-fatal car crash in 1983.
But then doctors used a state-of-the-art scanning system on the brain of the martial arts enthusiast, which showed it was functioning almost normally.
"I had dreamed myself away," said Houben, now 46, whose real "state" was discovered three years ago and has just been made public by the doctor who rescued him.
Steven Laureys, a neurologist at the University of Liège in Belgium, has published a scientific paper saying Houben could be one of many falsely diagnosed coma cases around the world.
Houben is being cared for at a facility near Brussels and now communicates via a computer with a special keyboard activated with his right hand, which is capable of minimal movement. He said his body was paralysed when he came round after his accident. Although he could hear every word his doctors spoke, he could not communicate with them.
"I screamed, but there was nothing to hear," he said, via his keyboard.
Houben then suffered years of being effectively trapped in his own body as care personnel and doctors at the hospital in Zolder tried to communicate with him, but eventually gave up hope that he would ever come round.
The moment it was discovered he was not in a vegetative state, said Houben, it was like being born again. "I'll never forget the day that they discovered me, it was my second birth."
Experts say Laureys' findings are likely to reopen the debate over when the decision should be made to terminate the lives of those in comas who appear to be unconscious but might have almost fully-functioning brains.
Belgian doctors used an internationally accepted scale to monitor Houben's state over the years. Known as the Glasgow Coma Scale, it requires assessment of the eyes, verbal and motor responses. But they failed to assess him correctly and missed signs that his brain was still functioning.
Laureys, who is head of the coma science group and neurology department at Liège University hospital, concluded coma patients are diagnosed falsely "on a disturbingly regular basis". In around 40% of cases diagnosed as vegetative, more careful examination shows there is still some level of consciousness. He examined 44 patients believed to be in a vegetative state, and found that 18 of them responded to communication.
"Once someone is labelled as being without consciousness, it is very hard to get rid of that," he told Spiegel magazine, calling for a systematic overhaul of the methods of diagnosis.
Laureys said patients who are not fully unconscious can often be treated and are capable of making considerable progress.
Around a fifth of patients who suffer serious head and brain injuries spend more than three weeks in a coma. Of those, between 15% and 25% are, technically speaking, still alive but remain in a state of unconsciousness, never to wake up.
Damn that would suck. Wonder how many other cases similar to his have been "terminated." What would you have thought about for 23 years if you were awake and paralyzed for that long?
tldr: Doctors thought man was in coma. In reality, he was awake the whole time. Doctors find out after 23 years. Debate over end of life coma policies ensue.
23 years of knowing that you're conscious but you can't move or communicate with the outside world. The frustration and boredom has to be beyond words to describe
I cannot help but cringe not just about this person, but for all of the other fully paralyzed that are affected the same as this man. I really hope the disgust this causes will change the way the patients are diagnosed to prevent further suffering...
Shit that sucks hard. They probably didn't leave any TV on or anything considering he was thought to be completely vegetative... Imagine just having your own mind to deal with for the majority of 23 years. Also imagine how he felt as hope dwindled, as people visited less and less... Fuck.
I'm surprised he didn't become mad. I mean in the same situation i would be so bored that i would try to have conversations with myself in my head and i would probably end up schizophrenic.
holy shit.. Was he fed through tubes and shit?...god the poor guy.. so boring... 24 hours X 365 days = 8,395 8,395 hours X 23 years = 193,085 hours of life lost...Sucks to be him.
On November 24 2009 05:34 fanatacist wrote: Shit that sucks hard. They probably didn't leave any TV on or anything considering he was thought to be completely vegetative... Imagine just having your own mind to deal with for the majority of 23 years. Also imagine how he felt as hope dwindled, as people visited less and less... Fuck.
Or how he felt as people raped him. Honestly. It goes without saying female patients are raped, its very very likely the males are as well. Or made fun of, or whatever. Yikes.
I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
Holy shit, 23 years! Thats longer than i am alive, i can't even imagine what its like, this is completely insane. This man deserves to be treated like a king.
It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
Fuck put a warning on this thread or something. I thought it be about a guy who woke up from a coma after 23 and remembered nothing of the past years. Just like every other story like this. This shit is scary and i wish i never read it. Fuck im going to go cry now
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
I think he must have reached a whole new level in understanding of life considering that he had all that time to think through things. I mean he could write a book on his 23 years of loneliness. It could be interesting.
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
Although he could hear every word his doctors spoke, he could not communicate with them.
"I screamed, but there was nothing to hear," he said, via his keyboard.
I imagine at first he was pretty much awake, but later, after a few days or weeks, his mind might have drifted into a more hazy state. Still, however, i imagine whenever someone came to change him or whatever he would wake back up.
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
How you reached this determination that he is in a 'hazy state' is beyond me (pure speculation imo) but even so...23 years is a very long time.
Do you think solitary confinement for 23 years is not that bad? I think the case presented here is arguably a lot worse.
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
How you reached this determination that he is in a 'hazy state' is beyond me (pure speculation imo) but even so...23 years is a very long time.
Do you think solitary confinement for 23 years is not that bad? I think the case presented here is arguably a lot worse.
yes it was clearly speculation. isn't all of this? have any of us been in his situation before?
I reached it based on a period of time when i stayed in bed (mostly with my eyes closed) for about 48 hours. It didn't take long before i was in a super hazy state, disoriented, and didn't know when it was or wtf was going on, and wasn't sure about the order of events that had occured to me in the last 48 hours.
I have to imagine that without sight, and communication with others, yes things would become very hazy and dreamlike.
And I think solitary confinement for 23 years would likely be worse than this.
The more solidly the ego is formed, the easier it is to freak out and feel bad. If you're just floating along in your own mind most of the time, I doubt it is as bad as having to be fully awake and sitting there for an equal amount of time.
and for when someone asks, the reason i stayed in bed that long was that i was super depressed
So people in comas with functioning brains can hear everything around them? Was he able to do this the entire time? Is he out of a coma and paralyzed, or in a coma and somehow can move his right hand?
On November 24 2009 07:18 keepITup wrote: What a vague article.
So people in comas with functioning brains can hear everything around them? Was he able to do this the entire time? Is he out of a coma and paralyzed, or in a coma and somehow can move his right hand?
lol you can't be in a coma and type anything meaningful... He was never in a "coma" so to speak, doctors thought he was in vegetative state, but he was actually fully paralyzed.
On November 24 2009 07:18 keepITup wrote: What a vague article.
So people in comas with functioning brains can hear everything around them? Was he able to do this the entire time? Is he out of a coma and paralyzed, or in a coma and somehow can move his right hand?
lol you can't be in a coma and type anything meaningful... He was never in a "coma" so to speak, doctors thought he was in vegetative state, but he was actually fully paralyzed.
oohhhh, thread title is kind of misleading then isn't it?
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
How you reached this determination that he is in a 'hazy state' is beyond me (pure speculation imo) but even so...23 years is a very long time.
Do you think solitary confinement for 23 years is not that bad? I think the case presented here is arguably a lot worse.
yes it was clearly speculation. isn't all of this? have any of us been in his situation before?
I reached it based on a period of time when i stayed in bed (mostly with my eyes closed) for about 48 hours. It didn't take long before i was in a super hazy state, disoriented, and didn't know when it was or wtf was going on, and wasn't sure about the order of events that had occured to me in the last 48 hours.
I have to imagine that without sight, and communication with others, yes things would become very hazy and dreamlike.
And I think solitary confinement for 23 years would likely be worse than this.
The more solidly the ego is formed, the easier it is to freak out and feel bad. If you're just floating along in your own mind most of the time, I doubt it is as bad as having to be fully awake and sitting there for an equal amount of time.
and for when someone asks, the reason i stayed in bed that long was that i was super depressed
There may be a causation issue here...your hazy state might have been due to your "super depression" rather than lying around for 48 hours. Sure he may become disoriented for lapses of time (like you said who knows?) from being in a pretty horrifying state, but I would find it reasonable to doubt that such existed for the entire 23 year duration.
Again how you connect no sight + inability to communicate --> hazy state, I don't understand. The mere fact that he could hear "every word" from the doctors and that he consciously screamed seem to imply the exact opposite.
He would feel better in solitary confinement rather than his state due to having a "less solid ego"? I'm no psychologist but that doesn't really seem compelling to me. You presume his ego is less solid (whatever the hell that means) and because of this somehow he is no longer concerned about his inability to communicate/see/read/write/taste/etc...
From this argument you'd take his predicament over solitary confinement? Really?
Edit: BTW I just noticed your sig. Surprised that you aren't a little more sympathetic to the man.
On November 24 2009 05:25 Azrael1111 wrote: After 23 years of just sitting around who wouldn't want to be dead?
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 06:15 LordWeird wrote: It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
God that sucks.
I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
A guy who was in death row for 17 years was exonerated after serving those 17 years. He went to do a public speaking at my college like a few weeks ago. It was interesting to hear stories of man.
I like to read these stories because it always prepares me to NOT get into situations like that because I am so impatient I will want to run around outside NAKED if I'm in a movie theater longer than 25 minutes. Now, imagine staying put for 17 or 23 or 50?!? years, how long can one be patient enough to just wait and see?
The mind is powerful enough to hurt, dismantle, and even depress you, but, it isn't powerful enough to end your own life? But, it's powerful enough to preserve your sanity? I am confused but at the same time astonished by these men.
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
How you reached this determination that he is in a 'hazy state' is beyond me (pure speculation imo) but even so...23 years is a very long time.
Do you think solitary confinement for 23 years is not that bad? I think the case presented here is arguably a lot worse.
yes it was clearly speculation. isn't all of this? have any of us been in his situation before?
I reached it based on a period of time when i stayed in bed (mostly with my eyes closed) for about 48 hours. It didn't take long before i was in a super hazy state, disoriented, and didn't know when it was or wtf was going on, and wasn't sure about the order of events that had occured to me in the last 48 hours.
I have to imagine that without sight, and communication with others, yes things would become very hazy and dreamlike.
And I think solitary confinement for 23 years would likely be worse than this.
The more solidly the ego is formed, the easier it is to freak out and feel bad. If you're just floating along in your own mind most of the time, I doubt it is as bad as having to be fully awake and sitting there for an equal amount of time.
and for when someone asks, the reason i stayed in bed that long was that i was super depressed
There may be a causation issue here...your hazy state might have been due to your "super depression" rather than lying around for 48 hours. Sure he may become disoriented for lapses of time (like you said who knows?) from being in a pretty horrifying state, but I would find it reasonable to doubt that such existed for the entire 23 year duration.
Again how you connect no sight + inability to communicate --> hazy state, I don't understand. The mere fact that he could hear "every word" from the doctors and that he consciously screamed seem to imply the exact opposite.
He would feel better in solitary confinement rather than his state due to having a "less solid ego"? I'm no psychologist but that doesn't really seem compelling to me. You presume his ego is less solid (whatever the hell that means) and because of this somehow he is no longer concerned about his inability to communicate/see/read/write/taste/etc...
From this argument you'd take his predicament over solitary confinement? Really?
Edit: BTW I just noticed your sig. Surprised that you aren't a little more sympathetic to the man.
I have sympathy for beings not articles. I do not know what this guy went through, as we all seem to agree our opinions on this are based on speculation. I very easily could be wrong about all the opinions I have expressed.
My hazy state was very likely influenced by my depression. I think the ability for me to lay in bed for 48 hours was directly caused by the depression. So yes, they are surely linked.
But, I also do not think that many people could willingly lie in bed for much longer than that without becoming depressed. So that kind of makes that point moot.
I do not necessarily think that lack of sight and inability to communicate = hazy state. It was an oversimplification. What I think leads to a hazy state is lack of action, drifting of thoughts, intermittent sleep, lack of movement, lack of stimulus, and inability to judge the passing of time. Lack of sight, and inability to communicate or move, are what would cause all of these things.
Just guesses. That is all this is.
Assuming that he drifts in and out of sleep, generally experiences things without reflecting upon them, and moves from one moment into the next without dwelling - yes I would take his predicament over solitary confinement.
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 06:15 LordWeird wrote: It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
God that sucks.
I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
The only thing this guy can do is think, after 23 years he's probably more curious about death than anything else.
On November 24 2009 06:49 travis wrote: Am I the only one that thinks it's not that bad?
Maybe I have the wrong idea of what it was like for this guy, but I doubt his brain was 100% lucid. I have to imagine it as being a much more dreamlike / hazy state.
How you reached this determination that he is in a 'hazy state' is beyond me (pure speculation imo) but even so...23 years is a very long time.
Do you think solitary confinement for 23 years is not that bad? I think the case presented here is arguably a lot worse.
yes it was clearly speculation. isn't all of this? have any of us been in his situation before?
I reached it based on a period of time when i stayed in bed (mostly with my eyes closed) for about 48 hours. It didn't take long before i was in a super hazy state, disoriented, and didn't know when it was or wtf was going on, and wasn't sure about the order of events that had occured to me in the last 48 hours.
I have to imagine that without sight, and communication with others, yes things would become very hazy and dreamlike.
And I think solitary confinement for 23 years would likely be worse than this.
The more solidly the ego is formed, the easier it is to freak out and feel bad. If you're just floating along in your own mind most of the time, I doubt it is as bad as having to be fully awake and sitting there for an equal amount of time.
and for when someone asks, the reason i stayed in bed that long was that i was super depressed
There may be a causation issue here...your hazy state might have been due to your "super depression" rather than lying around for 48 hours. Sure he may become disoriented for lapses of time (like you said who knows?) from being in a pretty horrifying state, but I would find it reasonable to doubt that such existed for the entire 23 year duration.
Again how you connect no sight + inability to communicate --> hazy state, I don't understand. The mere fact that he could hear "every word" from the doctors and that he consciously screamed seem to imply the exact opposite.
He would feel better in solitary confinement rather than his state due to having a "less solid ego"? I'm no psychologist but that doesn't really seem compelling to me. You presume his ego is less solid (whatever the hell that means) and because of this somehow he is no longer concerned about his inability to communicate/see/read/write/taste/etc...
From this argument you'd take his predicament over solitary confinement? Really?
Edit: BTW I just noticed your sig. Surprised that you aren't a little more sympathetic to the man.
I have sympathy for beings not articles.
But, I also do not think that many people could willingly lie in bed for much longer than that without becoming depressed. So that kind of makes that point moot.
What have we been talking about this entire time? Simply because the man is ancillary to our main discussion does not preclude the fact that we are talking about a man in a living-state coma for 23 years.
Two days of lying in bed ~> 22 years and 10 months of depression? Again...I don't understand how you come to these kinds of conclusions.
We have different opinions...let's just leave it at that.
On November 24 2009 07:57 Jayve wrote: I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
Death is merely the cessation of existence. If your existence is chiefly negative, wouldn't death be a welcome reprieve? Dying is certainly a pretty lame experience, I'd imagine, but being dead is the ultimate neutrality; simply nothing. We've already not existed for an infinite amount of time before our lives began. Was it so bad?
On November 24 2009 08:15 keepITup wrote: The only thing this guy can do is think, after 23 years he's probably more curious about death than anything else.
On November 24 2009 08:25 3clipse wrote: Death is merely the cessation of existence. If your existence is chiefly negative, wouldn't death be a welcome reprieve? Dying is certainly a pretty lame experience, I'd imagine, but being dead is the ultimate neutrality; simply nothing. We've already not existed for an infinite amount of time before our lives began. Was it so bad?
I'd imagine he's got even more reason to want to do things after being put 23 years behind.
And well, I guess that's the difference then. I don't see death as neutral. I see it as the lowest/worst you can get.
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 06:15 LordWeird wrote: It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
God that sucks.
I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Would anybody really want to go trough something like this for example? I certainly would not, especially not in the age of technology when we can make it quick and painless, basically like falling asleep and thats it.
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 06:15 LordWeird wrote: It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
God that sucks.
I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
On November 24 2009 08:15 keepITup wrote: The only thing this guy can do is think, after 23 years he's probably more curious about death than anything else.
On November 24 2009 08:25 3clipse wrote: Death is merely the cessation of existence. If your existence is chiefly negative, wouldn't death be a welcome reprieve? Dying is certainly a pretty lame experience, I'd imagine, but being dead is the ultimate neutrality; simply nothing. We've already not existed for an infinite amount of time before our lives began. Was it so bad?
I'd imagine he's got even more reason to want to do things after being put 23 years behind.
And well, I guess that's the difference then. I don't see death as neutral. I see it as the lowest/worst you can get.
I'm swedish.
I'd much, much, much rather be dead than spend 23 years unable to communicate or move.
I'd probably rather be dead than be paralyzed (neck down) too although I'm not entirely sure about that one.
On November 24 2009 05:34 fanatacist wrote: Shit that sucks hard. They probably didn't leave any TV on or anything considering he was thought to be completely vegetative... Imagine just having your own mind to deal with for the majority of 23 years. Also imagine how he felt as hope dwindled, as people visited less and less... Fuck.
Or how he felt as people raped him. Honestly. It goes without saying female patients are raped, its very very likely the males are as well. Or made fun of, or whatever. Yikes.
It goes without saying?
I'd like to think that's not something your average coma patient would have to experience (or not experience, as it were).
absolutely stunning that the percentage is so high for misdiagnosed coma patients. i wonder how long this "state of the art" technology they used has been around, maybe they could've found out sooner.
ignorant question: if you're completely paralyzed, do you still feel when someone touches your limbs, or an itch as someone mentioned?
On November 24 2009 05:34 fanatacist wrote: Shit that sucks hard. They probably didn't leave any TV on or anything considering he was thought to be completely vegetative... Imagine just having your own mind to deal with for the majority of 23 years. Also imagine how he felt as hope dwindled, as people visited less and less... Fuck.
Or how he felt as people raped him. Honestly. It goes without saying female patients are raped, its very very likely the males are as well. Or made fun of, or whatever. Yikes.
It goes without saying?
I'd like to think that's not something your average coma patient would have to experience (or not experience, as it were).
It happened in Kill Bill so it has to be real!
On a more serious note tho, being trapped inside your own body for such a long time sounds like one of the worst things that could ever happen. It'd take a very strong person/mind to stay sane.
On November 24 2009 05:34 fanatacist wrote: Shit that sucks hard. They probably didn't leave any TV on or anything considering he was thought to be completely vegetative... Imagine just having your own mind to deal with for the majority of 23 years. Also imagine how he felt as hope dwindled, as people visited less and less... Fuck.
Or how he felt as people raped him. Honestly. It goes without saying female patients are raped, its very very likely the males are as well. Or made fun of, or whatever. Yikes.
ok I have two things to say, both need to be first so please read 1) and then go away for a minute or two and read 2)
1) Just because you have semi-necrofelia fantasies doesnt mean the rest of the world does
I wish the article was longer, it raises so many questions really without much answers.
He can just barely move his fingers enough to type. I'm curious how much movement is that? Inches? centimeters? Surely more than enough I think that doctors, nurses, or visitors would notice if they saw it twitching or even holding his hand?? Or is it normal for the body to twitch like that? Honestly the first thing that would come to mind is to try to give him a pen/pencil maybe he could coordinate it. Who knows I guess just thinking out loud.
Another thing, someone touched on this earlier in a post, the worst feeling I believe he could possibly feel was seeing your family and friends visit less and less over the period of time. That to me would be absolutely heart wrenching. Though I would imagine he would become immune to emotions somewhat early in that 23 years.
The last thing thing that came to mind that I was curious about is was his eyes open or closed? Could he see his surroundings? or just left to the darkness and the images of nothing except what he manifested himself? If his eyes were open could he look around? I doubt it now that I think of it it would be crazy to think his eyes were open because he would have to blink and that should be a sure tell sign that he's not in a coma. I truly feel terrible for this man. I think this would be worse than death and if I was in his position I would want death I think it would be a relief.
As I was typing the last sentence I though of something else.... Just imagine the amount of money his bill has incurred too. It would be outrageous, and if possibly the hospital is decreasing the amount or totally negating it due to the false diagnosis.
On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote: What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death.
On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote: If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead.
And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote: What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death.
On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote: If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead.
And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
im gonna go ahead and assume these terrible experiences were temporary -- since your alive and well, posting on TL.
tell me when your in a situation where there isn't a sliver of hope in getting out of it.
On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote: What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death.
On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote: If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead.
And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
Because you knew those tortuous experiences wouldn't last/didnt experience them long enough.
Trying to imagine sitting there unable to even control your blinking let alone where you're looking/etc for 23 years straight day aftter day is making my head spin. I can't believe this guy is still sane after all that...
Really makes me rethink terminating vegetative-state people though. That 40% statistic is scary...
when u think about it, the same thing might be going on in mental institution, like a guy who isn't really a nut but was pro-claimed a nut because of a flaw in the general perceived laws of psychiatry which is used to dictate who's a nut or nut... man my head kinda hurts when i think about it...
but u gotta admit, 23 years of not being able to communicate and thought of as a tree, being a prisoner of ur own body... who knows how many more of these people that shared the same fate is out there?
Dunno Jave, I can say right now that if I have a choice between being a vegetable or death; I'd choose death.
Not only can't I do shit but I would become a burden to others.
This could change if I actually do become paralyzed, but from my viewpoint right now, death is better than paralysis from the neck down.
I guess we disagree because I do believe that there are things worse than death. To me, as someone said before, I see death as kind of neutral; it's how you die that's important.
On November 24 2009 05:55 LF9 wrote: I can't even fathom this. That's longer than I've even been alive, and he had absolutely no choice; he probably wished to be killed after a year or so of it. After what he's been through, someone really needs to get together a fundraiser to hire hookers to give him day and night pleasure for the rest of his life. It's only fair.
On November 24 2009 06:15 LordWeird wrote: It's probably terrible to want to cry and scream and kill yourself but not be able to do it for twenty three years. It was probably the most torturous twenty three years anybody has ever had to go through. I imagine a lot of the time he tried to sleep.
God that sucks.
I don't understand this mentality.
I don't see how anything is worse than death and I've never understood the "I'd rather be dead" sentenses.
I don't mean to be "racist" or "profile" or whatever you want to call it. But I seem to hear it out of Americans a lot. Can someone explain this mentality to me? I just can't see anything worse than death.
Is it because you believe in an afterlife you'd rather be dead?
You serious? I'm an atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife, but it's still obvious there are things much worse than death.
Would you rather:
A) Be tortured with needles, knives, poisons, etc. in indescribable pain as your life slowly faded while your torturers slapped you with your own kidneys, jammed needles in your eyes, and poured irritants on open wounds all over your body, before finally dying 12 hours later.
B) Be shot in the head and die within seconds, your brain fully ceasing function after a minute or so maximum?
Sounds like you would choose A, because you'd still be alive for 12 hours longer, and nothing's worse than death, right?
It's an extreme example, but it shows it's just a matter of opinion. Some things ARE worse than death, and personally, I would definitely rather die than spend 23 years trapped in a paralyzed body with everyone thinking I was braindead. DEFINITELY. It wouldn't take me 5 seconds to make a choice like that.
I'm pretty sure 99% of people would rather be dead than be in the same situation as this person for 23 years regardless if they were American or not (or any other factor in upbringing).
A) Be tortured with needles, knives, poisons, etc. in indescribable pain as your life slowly faded while your torturers slapped you with your own kidneys, jammed needles in your eyes, and poured irritants on open wounds all over your body, before finally dying 12 hours later.
B) Be shot in the head and die within seconds, your brain fully ceasing function after a minute or so maximum?
Since your entire premise was that there are things worse than death, using death as the consequence of either decision makes for a poor example.
Anyhow, the entire story has proven that this man's situation, however desperate, was not hopeless, therefore such drastic hypotheticals are irrelevant to the story.
On November 24 2009 10:26 Grobyc wrote: I would sue.
For a lot.
Or at least try =/, that would suck hard.
On what basis would you sue? For not developing state of the art brain scanning technology 23 years faster?
Such a shitty story, feel so bad for him. Also can't imagine what it is like for people with relatives in such a state to read this story, or even doctors and nurses that work with people in that condition. So scary. So many what ifs. Fuck.
On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote: What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death.
On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote: If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead.
And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
So if you were to be in unbelievable physical pains while your body decomposed for the next 40 years and then die, would that life make any sense? Would you live it only for the sake of living it, even tho every second of your existence is nothing but pointless suffering?
We make judgments about death because there is nobody/nothing else to make them for us. And my judgment is that non-existence, a neutral, is far more desirable then the state of suffering, a negative.
On November 24 2009 10:13 Ha.cK wrote: I'm pretty sure 99% of people would rather be dead than be in the same situation as this person for 23 years regardless if they were American or not (or any other factor in upbringing).
And still the basic human right, the right to die, is being denied to human beings in pretty much all countries with a couple of exceptions.
Obviously very few people would deny that there is nothing worse than death, but to claim that there is a standard basis for determining what those conditions are is senseless and depends entirely on the value system of the person in question.
I do believe some of us utilitarian-rationalists insisting on the desirable value of expedient death may on some other occasion exercise their Darwinian reason to suggest that self-preservation is the supreme imperative of all life.
In this respect at least we may differentiate human beings from all other animals; human beings are the only creatures which commit suicide. They are probably the only creatures conscious of their own mortality.
You cannot sue. The doctors have not violated any duty of care, nor have the failed to act in accordance with standard medical, nor did they infringe up on any perceived fiduciary duty (which is not fully fledged law in europe anyway). Sometimes, stuff like this happens because society was not developed enough to deal with it at the time - are you realy suggesting that a doctor who did his/her best at the time, should be financially crippled over two decades later?
A) Be tortured with needles, knives, poisons, etc. in indescribable pain as your life slowly faded while your torturers slapped you with your own kidneys, jammed needles in your eyes, and poured irritants on open wounds all over your body, before finally dying 12 hours later.
B) Be shot in the head and die within seconds, your brain fully ceasing function after a minute or so maximum?
Since your entire premise was that there are things worse than death, using death as the consequence of either decision makes for a poor example.
Anyhow, the entire story has proven that this man's situation, however desperate, was not hopeless, therefore such drastic hypotheticals are irrelevant to the story.
It's actually a good example because if death is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you, you'd choose option A to live as long as possible.
The man in this article knows he will die eventually, whether he thinks it's worth living until that point or not is up to him.
If everyday is torture for him, I'd imagine he'd want to die. Although being as he isn't begging to die after 23 years, maybe he doesn't mind just chilling there.
On November 24 2009 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote: In this respect at least we may differentiate human beings from all other animals; human beings are the only creatures which commit suicide.
For real? I'm increasingly buying into the theory that Molke is a random pharse generator. If I had enough time and smarts I seriously want to build a MolkeWords generator applet where you enter a keyword and it churns out a blob of Molke-esque text. And if you enter "China" and it will explode in your face.
The guy has mental fortitude and patience for sure. To be able to remember the language after so many years without meaningful interaction is quite a feat by itself (but then again what he type now may hardly be what he initially is capable of). It also stomps on all the celebrity gossip mag stories of 'so and so is in for 3 months and is barely sane in detention/prison'. Weak sauce.
For whatever reason some of you think he cannot see. His eyesight is poor but it still works. Really this is one of the biggest medical tragedies in modern history, and it's sad that there are so many people still unable to communicate with the world.
For real? I'm increasingly buying into the theory that Molke is a random pharse generator.
What are you complaining about? In any given thread such as this, most posts are more or less redundant copies of one another. At least I'm only redundant unto myself.
But you ought to know that. After all, without you, there would be another thousand "Moltke is a phrasemonger" parrots racing to the yoke, but without me, what would come of all that stimulating character criticism?
It also stomps on all the celebrity gossip mag stories of 'so and so is in for 3 months and is barely sane in detention/prison'. Weak sauce.
You're becoming quite a celebrity gossip mag yourself, you know.
On November 24 2009 08:32 defender223 wrote: What don't you understand? That life can get be so unbearable that its not worth living? That people would rather not go trough the experience of being trapped for 23 years? And lets not forget that even now when its discovered that he is aware, he is still almost totally paralyzed. There are things far far worst then being dead.
Yep, exactly that, I don't see how anything is worse than death.
On November 24 2009 08:50 [ZiNC]Ling wrote: If you're dead, you can't feel any pain, so if you suffered enough in life then death would seem like a relief from your misery. Death could even be a logical choice in some cases, if you don't have anything worth living for or any hope of recovery.
OTOH, if you simply can't think of anything worse than death, at least you haven't suffered any of those things
I don't get how you can make judgements about what it's like to be dead.
And well that's the thing. I've personally had 3 near death experiences, been exposed to unbelievable physical pains, been mentally tortured, and at no point did I ever think I'd be better off dead.
You asked TL to explain to you the mentality of someone who would rather die than be locked-in for 23 years; I provided a little more detail, from the perspective of someone who has considered the matter in the context of my own life. I even tried to provide the optimistic perspective that at least you have never suffered anything as terrible as death. Plenty of other people in this thread have given you even better answers IMO.
Given that intention I really don't know how to interpret your post. It sounds like you're trying to argue against the position you claimed to be curious about, and in support of your argument you offer a laundry list of all the horrors you have endured without ever wanting to die. Clearly, you should keep your own viewpoint on the matter, and I think it's just as clear that you should get off my back for keeping mine. You will never change my past experiences by showing off yours, so I don't see the point of your post other than to brag/troll.
This is a more complex issue than it appears, and than the media is presenting it as. Its not actually clear that he is conscious at all! The report on msnbc clearly shows that the communication this man has 'given' was delivered by a 'facilitator' via 'Facilitated Communication.' Which is a bunch of nonsense.
On November 24 2009 13:37 PunitiveDamages wrote: This is a more complex issue than it appears, and than the media is presenting it as. Its not actually clear that he is conscious at all! The report on msnbc clearly shows that the communication this man has 'given' was delivered by a 'facilitator' via 'Facilitated Communication.' Which is a bunch of nonsense.
The issue with death is that it is permanent and does not only affect the person at hand but a number of others that they have relationships with as well. Thinking about death is not only thinking about the afterlife or thinking about the lack of pain - it's thinking about the hole that will be left with your passing - how family and friends will be affected. Physical Torture vs. Death is different in that regard.
But in this case, after 23 years, wouldn't your family be at peace with the relative's death? Was there really any hope amongst the family that he would someday break out of the curse? The remaining relationships would be at such a brittle state that I wouldn't have to reconsider if I had the option to pull off my own plug. Being paralyzed for 23 years is not a life.
On November 25 2009 02:20 haster27 wrote: Damn it. Another one of my fears got confirmed as reality. I really should start carrying suicide pill tucked inside my mouth..
so that you win US$200 mi in the lotto, trip due to hype and swallow the pill. :p
EPT
