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On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus.
Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:46 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:17 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:10 NExUS1g wrote:
If there is no evidence, there's a lack of information to make an educated decision or even a "best guess". Are you going to blame semantics again when you reread this and realize how laughable this statement is? You have serious fucking problems with understanding inductive reasoning. I am an agnostic atheist. Let's say We have a time line that runs from 1,000 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. Now we have a purported kingdom that existed in country X from 900 B.C.E. to 700 B.C.E. Now, we don't see any information that there was the existence of this purported kingdom that existed in country X. Can we say that it doesn't exist and the one source of information is wrong? Isn't it more sound to say we can't prove its existence rather than completely denying its existence or even saying that it probably didn't exist? I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain?
Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists?
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On August 19 2009 11:37 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus. Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty.
Most historians accept the historical existence of Jesus.
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On August 19 2009 11:42 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:37 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus. Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty. Most historians accept the historical existence of Jesus.
This is true. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming.
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On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:46 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:17 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:10 NExUS1g wrote:
If there is no evidence, there's a lack of information to make an educated decision or even a "best guess". Are you going to blame semantics again when you reread this and realize how laughable this statement is? You have serious fucking problems with understanding inductive reasoning. I am an agnostic atheist. Let's say We have a time line that runs from 1,000 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. Now we have a purported kingdom that existed in country X from 900 B.C.E. to 700 B.C.E. Now, we don't see any information that there was the existence of this purported kingdom that existed in country X. Can we say that it doesn't exist and the one source of information is wrong? Isn't it more sound to say we can't prove its existence rather than completely denying its existence or even saying that it probably didn't exist? I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists?
You can't be serious.
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On August 19 2009 11:44 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:37 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus. Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty. Most historians accept the historical existence of Jesus. This is true. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming.
That's subjective.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:46 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:17 Jibba wrote:
[quote]
Are you going to blame semantics again when you reread this and realize how laughable this statement is? You have serious fucking problems with understanding inductive reasoning. I am an agnostic atheist. Let's say We have a time line that runs from 1,000 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. Now we have a purported kingdom that existed in country X from 900 B.C.E. to 700 B.C.E. Now, we don't see any information that there was the existence of this purported kingdom that existed in country X. Can we say that it doesn't exist and the one source of information is wrong? Isn't it more sound to say we can't prove its existence rather than completely denying its existence or even saying that it probably didn't exist? I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction.
Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST."
By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW.
And please explain how it is logically possible to prove something's lack of existence. Lay it out for us in Ps and Qs.
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On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:46 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
I am an agnostic atheist.
Let's say We have a time line that runs from 1,000 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. Now we have a purported kingdom that existed in country X from 900 B.C.E. to 700 B.C.E. Now, we don't see any information that there was the existence of this purported kingdom that existed in country X. Can we say that it doesn't exist and the one source of information is wrong? Isn't it more sound to say we can't prove its existence rather than completely denying its existence or even saying that it probably didn't exist? I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW.
Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist.
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On August 19 2009 11:46 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:44 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:37 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus. Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty. Most historians accept the historical existence of Jesus. This is true. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming. That's subjective.
do you find it to be overwhelming?
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On August 19 2009 11:56 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:46 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:44 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:37 Mindcrime wrote:On August 19 2009 11:34 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:30 Louder wrote:
What? I have never heard of ANY evidence that even verifies the existence of Jesus. There's a significant amount of period texts written about or mentioning Jesus. Even if you include the Josephus text mentioning him, which is thought to be a forgery by the vast majority, all texts were written many decades after he would have died. They show that there were Christians at the time of their writing, but beyond that, little can be said with certainty. Most historians accept the historical existence of Jesus. This is true. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming. That's subjective. do you find it to be overwhelming?
How I feel about it is still subjective.
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United States43808 Posts
On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:[quote] I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist.
Erm, it's a murder scene, the corpse is evidence that there was a murderer. So is the blood. What he's doing is going into an empty room, finding a fingerprint and declaring there was no murder.
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I'm pretty sure that this law would be struck down if somebody were to raise a complaint that their kids were hurt by such a policy and that case were brought to a district or an appeals court (even Supreme Court if needs be). But at the same time, it would be pretty hard to prove that you were hurt by an optional choice of curriculum in a school.
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I wanted to know how you feel about it, not what you think about how you feel about it.
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On August 19 2009 11:59 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know.
From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist. Erm, it's a murder scene, the corpse is evidence that there was a murderer. So is the blood. What he's doing is going into an empty room, finding a fingerprint and declaring there was no murder.
A death is always assumed a murder until murder is ruled out -- so it's a murder scene by default if you're taking evidence.
I can't believe I have to do this...
If I go to a crime scene where there is a dead body, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say she committed suicide. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:[quote] I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist. No, we say "this likely didn't exist" until we find more evidence. You assume nothing until you find evidence to contradict that. You're assuming everything from the very beginning. You work with the evidence you have.
If there's a murder scene with holes in the victims and bullet casings on the ground, we start by inferring they were shot. If an anonymous caller tells us the victim was actually squashed by a giant bunny rabbit, you're asking us to disprove the squashing theory rather than find evidence that it happened.
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On August 19 2009 12:01 Mindcrime wrote:
I wanted to know how you feel about it, not what you think about how you feel about it.
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I feel the evidence is sufficient.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 19 2009 12:02 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:59 Kwark wrote:On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:
[quote]They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week.
The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that.
What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now.
What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist. Erm, it's a murder scene, the corpse is evidence that there was a murderer. So is the blood. What he's doing is going into an empty room, finding a fingerprint and declaring there was no murder. A death is always assumed a murder until murder is ruled out What fucking world do you live in? God, the police must have a really busy time investigating hospices and nursing homes.
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On August 19 2009 12:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know.
From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist. No, we say "this likely didn't exist" until we find more evidence. You assume nothing until you find evidence to contradict that. You're assuming everything from the very beginning. You work with the evidence you have. If there's a murder scene with holes in the victims and bullet casings on the ground, we start by inferring they were shot. If an anonymous caller tells us the victim was actually squashed by a giant bunny rabbit, you're asking us to disprove the squashing theory rather than find evidence that it happened.
There's a historical text that is generally correct that says X existed. I would say that it existed unless proven otherwise.
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On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:04 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 10:51 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 10:46 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
I am an agnostic atheist.
Let's say We have a time line that runs from 1,000 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. Now we have a purported kingdom that existed in country X from 900 B.C.E. to 700 B.C.E. Now, we don't see any information that there was the existence of this purported kingdom that existed in country X. Can we say that it doesn't exist and the one source of information is wrong? Isn't it more sound to say we can't prove its existence rather than completely denying its existence or even saying that it probably didn't exist? I raped your mother last night. Now, you might call your mother up and ask her "Did Jibba give you unbelievable pleasure against your will last night?" and you might gain a piece of evidence that can prove or disprove my claim, but until that happens, are you seriously going to remain agnostic to the claim that I raped the shit out of your hot mommy? + Show Spoiler + From a scientific standpoint, I would have to say I don't know. From a personal standpoint, I'd tell you that you're a retard for attempting to win an argument using pathetic attempts at sly insults. They're not sly insults. If you weren't stubbornly sticking to a stupid point, you would make inferences that because of the nature of my claim, over the internet, by an unknown forum poster, etc. that they are spurious and that my claim is false. THAT IS HOW INDUCTION WORKS. Even if you called your mother, her reply would would still not serve as a definitive data point to prove I didn't bang her so hard she can't walk for a week. The same principle applies to your mythical civilization. They tend to leave behind remains and if they're advanced (which this one supposedly was), then they've made contact with other groups of people and their existence would be documented. This is what anthropologists do. Do you think they've deductively proven Pompeii was destroyed by Mt. Vesuvius? No one can do that. What is your idea of definitive proof anyways? Please, indulge us and definitely prove that you aren't dreaming right now. What's even weaker about your argument is that you're attempting to use logic to validate a religion, when even religious people acknowledge that it can't be done. I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive. Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. And please explain how it is logically possible to prove something's lack of existence. Lay it out for us in Ps and Qs.
Given that I am aware (otherwise I could not make this post):
Therefore I exist as something.
I reside in this universe.
Therefore this universe exists.
Given this universe, there is a planet P such that for the existence of something given by the equation |an-L|<epsilon, where epsilon is a value that is infinitesimally small and near 0.
Since an in this universe is defined as P, and since the limit L approaches P for a value n > 0 in this universe, the value becomes defined as |P-P| < epsilon, which is defined as true.
Thus the planet P, which in this case is Earth, exists.
On this planet P, there may or may not be an internet.
Since I am making a post on this internet,and since I exist in this universe on this planet P which is proven to exist as above, this internet exists as well.
Since this internet is undefined, I can claim any values may or may not exist in this internet. Since I exist, my claims are valid for this universe.
Since I claim that TL.net exists on the internet, which is demonstrated because it has been defined that TL.net is a value, and that such a value may be on the internet, thus in this universe, on this internet in planet P/Earth, TL.net exists on the internet.
Since TL.net exists on the internet that I have defined to be in this universe on this planet P on the internet, it can thus be concluded that TL.net exists in this universe.
In other universes, there is bound to be a proof in how TL.net exists in those respective universes but as they likely obey other laws it is impossible for us in this universe to do so. However, in this universe, since I am aware and am able to define myself and my setting, I exist, my setting exists, and subsequently as demonstrated above TL.net exists.
Q.E.D.
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On August 19 2009 12:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 12:02 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:59 Kwark wrote:On August 19 2009 11:55 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:48 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:45 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:40 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:19 NExUS1g wrote:On August 19 2009 11:11 Jibba wrote:On August 19 2009 11:10 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
I'm not validating a religion, I'm saying the Bible has not been proven wrong and it is cohesive.
Like I said, though, probability used in a circumstance like this equates to, "I don't know." No, it equates to "very likely not." If this is an "I don't know" decision for you, then how do you get through life? I can think of a dozen decisions right now that are more difficult than believing the historical accuracy of the Bible. So if you say, "This monarchy probably didn't exist," this somehow means you know for certain? Please list 5 facts which you know to be certain, based on the level of deduction you're asking for. Are you certain TeamLiquid actually exists? You can't be serious. Do it. You're asking for an unobtainable level of proof (deduction) to show that the kingdom didn't exist, when we can simply infer through multiple data sources that it didn't. Since you can't seem to understand the difference between inference (and the way we use it in every day language to say "I know X") then tell us what you do know from deduction. Lack of remains is a piece of evidence that screams "DIDN'T EXIST." By your system of knowledge, we need to remain agnostic on pretty much everything. There's no proof that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. There's no proof that I didn't rape your mother. There's no proof that TL has been imagined by you. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Right, because we've dug up everything that is under the ground. We know we have dug up a small number artifacts from the last 5,000 years of human history. If I go to a murder scene, lift one fingerprint, and determine the fingerprint is that of the victim, I can't say there was no murderer. That's exactly what you're doing here. You're taking the VERY little we know of all there is to know and saying it provides significant proof of what didn't exist. Erm, it's a murder scene, the corpse is evidence that there was a murderer. So is the blood. What he's doing is going into an empty room, finding a fingerprint and declaring there was no murder. A death is always assumed a murder until murder is ruled out What fucking world do you live in? God, the police must have a really busy time investigating hospices and nursing homes.
If a there is a human corpse and no medical professional was around to determine the cause of death, then it is a murder unless proven otherwise.
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