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scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
April 13 2014 21:14 GMT
#5101
the azer curse is real
ebacho
Profile Joined July 2009
United States193 Posts
April 13 2014 21:26 GMT
#5102
On April 14 2014 05:53 maru~ wrote:

You're right, but then how do you objectively judge the difficulty of a map? As you said, "what's hard for some people is easy for others, and vice versa.". Also while it's true that you could get a lot of pp by playing certain kind of maps you will still hit a wall at some point because of the weighting.


I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing. Of course this would take some research into what combination of maps/mods/whatever to ensure that you didn't deviate too far from that pp score and remain easily FCable, you could conceivably get to some pretty high rank without actually being that great.

I do agree on your remark about subjectivity/objectivity of map difficulty - that said, a map with higher bpm, more stacks, streams, jumps, patterns and so forth will generally be harder than one without those map elements.
Proud member of TL's osufam
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20344 Posts
April 13 2014 21:34 GMT
#5103
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20344 Posts
April 13 2014 21:38 GMT
#5104
On April 14 2014 06:14 scottyyy wrote:
the azer curse is real


20 attempts later, i got to the same place and missed four times

80% of the time i mess up before i reach it, which is inconsistent and annoying but i have a single "derp point" in the map to fix and then i should have this one too
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:48:26
April 13 2014 21:41 GMT
#5105
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 65pp

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
ebacho
Profile Joined July 2009
United States193 Posts
April 13 2014 21:45 GMT
#5106
On April 14 2014 06:34 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.

Fake edit: As I typed the above I think I got what you were trying to say - the effect of the 100% weight 250 would cancel out the effect of the lower weights of the 125/125. The problem I see this having is that it would discourage people from trying to FC maps that are a lot higher than the level they're comfortable at if they had a lot of these lower scores, however.
Proud member of TL's osufam
maru~
Profile Joined February 2013
2345 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:52:06
April 13 2014 21:47 GMT
#5107
On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 05:53 maru~ wrote:

You're right, but then how do you objectively judge the difficulty of a map? As you said, "what's hard for some people is easy for others, and vice versa.". Also while it's true that you could get a lot of pp by playing certain kind of maps you will still hit a wall at some point because of the weighting.


I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing. Of course this would take some research into what combination of maps/mods/whatever to ensure that you didn't deviate too far from that pp score and remain easily FCable, you could conceivably get to some pretty high rank without actually being that great.

Not sure what you mean here.

On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
I do agree on your remark about subjectivity/objectivity of map difficulty - that said, a map with higher bpm, more stacks, streams, jumps, patterns and so forth will generally be harder than one without those map elements.

Sure, but it's usually not as clearcut. Is a high bpm map with easy patterns and few jumps harder than a low bpm map with hard patterns etc.

On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 62pp

dafuq?

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?

Only 2.64 stars. You'd need really high acc here.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:52:48
April 13 2014 21:49 GMT
#5108
On April 14 2014 06:47 maru~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 05:53 maru~ wrote:

You're right, but then how do you objectively judge the difficulty of a map? As you said, "what's hard for some people is easy for others, and vice versa.". Also while it's true that you could get a lot of pp by playing certain kind of maps you will still hit a wall at some point because of the weighting.


I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing. Of course this would take some research into what combination of maps/mods/whatever to ensure that you didn't deviate too far from that pp score and remain easily FCable, you could conceivably get to some pretty high rank without actually being that great.

Not sure what you mean here.

Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
I do agree on your remark about subjectivity/objectivity of map difficulty - that said, a map with higher bpm, more stacks, streams, jumps, patterns and so forth will generally be harder than one without those map elements.

Sure, but it's usually not as clearcut. Is a high bpm map with easy patterns and few jumps harder than a low bpm map with hard patterns etc.

Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 62pp

dafuq?

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?

Only 2.64 stars. You'd need really high acc here.


Oh really? It's one of the hardest maps i've ever fc'd lol

i took it from a page where it gave like 140pp


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.


If your score is 200, 150, 150, 0, 0, you'd get ~478pp

if your score is 200, 150, 150, 50, 50, you'd get ~561pp

all of your scores add, in order of highest to lowest, it's impossible for a lower score to drag you down, but the weighting makes it so that your top X songs overwhelmingly decide your score
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
swim224
Profile Joined May 2010
Botswana368 Posts
April 13 2014 21:49 GMT
#5109
I feel really silly for asking this, but where do you find the star counts you guys keep talking about?
....unless Taeja suddenly parachutes into the studio with explosions behind him and lands on a skateboard which he jumps over the booth before jumping in. If that happened it would be so sweet it would be physically impossible for them to lose. - Haydin
maru~
Profile Joined February 2013
2345 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:50:33
April 13 2014 21:50 GMT
#5110
On April 14 2014 06:49 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:47 maru~ wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 05:53 maru~ wrote:

You're right, but then how do you objectively judge the difficulty of a map? As you said, "what's hard for some people is easy for others, and vice versa.". Also while it's true that you could get a lot of pp by playing certain kind of maps you will still hit a wall at some point because of the weighting.


I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing. Of course this would take some research into what combination of maps/mods/whatever to ensure that you didn't deviate too far from that pp score and remain easily FCable, you could conceivably get to some pretty high rank without actually being that great.

Not sure what you mean here.

On April 14 2014 06:26 ebacho wrote:
I do agree on your remark about subjectivity/objectivity of map difficulty - that said, a map with higher bpm, more stacks, streams, jumps, patterns and so forth will generally be harder than one without those map elements.

Sure, but it's usually not as clearcut. Is a high bpm map with easy patterns and few jumps harder than a low bpm map with hard patterns etc.

On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 62pp

dafuq?

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?

Only 2.64 stars. You'd need really high acc here.


Oh really? It's one of the hardest maps i've ever fc'd lol

i took it from a page where it gave like 140pp

Pretty sure that was a dt score then.

On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
It's counting the top score, even though there is one with better accuracy, and another that's an FC. Can i get it to count those ones, or see how much PP they would give?

No. You have to redo it with fc and high accuracy to overwrite the score it counts currently. Not sure if it's worth the trouble though.
ebacho
Profile Joined July 2009
United States193 Posts
April 13 2014 21:50 GMT
#5111
On April 14 2014 06:49 swim224 wrote:
I feel really silly for asking this, but where do you find the star counts you guys keep talking about?


Go to a beatmap's page, in the upper RH corner of the info boxes there's a star rating.
Proud member of TL's osufam
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:54:36
April 13 2014 21:51 GMT
#5112
On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 65pp

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?


Due to the way the game is programmed, it has to take your #1 score and disregard the rest. Even if that score would give you less pp than your #2 score. The only way around it is to just beat all your scores with a better one.

It sucks, but it's a limitation that peppy is working on. It's only really affected me on this map: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/261729?m=0

I got a 95% S which gave me 150pp, but then beat that score with a 93% A FC which dropped it down to a 127pp score. :/

And now I can't FC it anymore. Damn 212 bpm streams.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 21:56:47
April 13 2014 21:54 GMT
#5113
On April 14 2014 06:51 scottyyy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 65pp

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?


Due to the way the game is programmed, it has to take your #1 score and disregard the rest. Even if that score would give you less pp than your #2 score. The only way around it is to just beat all your scores with a better one.


That sounds pretty painful

So i can never overtake my score on Tik Tok with an SS, even if it would give more PP, because it won't calculate it?

Calculating the highest score made sense when the highest score gave the most ranking points. It doesn't any more, so i don't understand why it's still like that. If it is, they should at least give you the ability to wipe scores, even though that's a messy workaround

It sucks, but it's a limitation that peppy is working on


aha, good to hear then. Where do you hear this stuff?
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-13 22:01:54
April 13 2014 21:56 GMT
#5114
On April 14 2014 06:54 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:51 scottyyy wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:41 Cyro wrote:
I fc'd it with 95.5% and it gave me 65pp

I mean it's not great accuracy but seriously?


Due to the way the game is programmed, it has to take your #1 score and disregard the rest. Even if that score would give you less pp than your #2 score. The only way around it is to just beat all your scores with a better one.


That sounds pretty painful

So i can never overtake my score on Tik Tok with an SS, even if it would give more PP, because it won't calculate it?

Calculating the highest score made sense when the highest score gave the most ranking points. It doesn't any more, so i don't understand why it's still like that. If it is, they should at least give you the ability to wipe scores, even though that's a messy workaround


SS no mod? No it won't submit, but that would give you less pp anyway so I'm not sure why you'd want to replace a 98% DT HD with a nomod SS. :p

Of course if you got DT HD SS then it would submit and you'd get a lot more pp.

I heard about it in the massive ppv2 feedback thread Tom94 posted in the gameplay section on the osu forum. He mentioned this limitation many times.
maru~
Profile Joined February 2013
2345 Posts
April 13 2014 21:58 GMT
#5115
On April 14 2014 06:45 ebacho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:34 Cyro wrote:
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.

Fake edit: As I typed the above I think I got what you were trying to say - the effect of the 100% weight 250 would cancel out the effect of the lower weights of the 125/125. The problem I see this having is that it would discourage people from trying to FC maps that are a lot higher than the level they're comfortable at if they had a lot of these lower scores, however.

If your top scores were 150/150/150 there would still be weighting. (100% of the first 150, 95% of the second 150, 90% of the third 150).

I think the pp you get for a score is 0.95^#rank-1 * pp of score.
ebacho
Profile Joined July 2009
United States193 Posts
April 13 2014 22:00 GMT
#5116
On April 14 2014 06:58 maru~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:45 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:34 Cyro wrote:
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.

Fake edit: As I typed the above I think I got what you were trying to say - the effect of the 100% weight 250 would cancel out the effect of the lower weights of the 125/125. The problem I see this having is that it would discourage people from trying to FC maps that are a lot higher than the level they're comfortable at if they had a lot of these lower scores, however.

If your top scores were 150/150/150 there would still be weighting. (100% of the first 150, 95% of the second 150, 90% of the third 150).

I think the pp you get for a score is 0.95^#rank-1 * pp of score.


Ah, that makes more sense. Seems like an ok system for the most part then.
Proud member of TL's osufam
maru~
Profile Joined February 2013
2345 Posts
April 13 2014 22:03 GMT
#5117
On April 14 2014 07:00 ebacho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 06:58 maru~ wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:45 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:34 Cyro wrote:
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.

Fake edit: As I typed the above I think I got what you were trying to say - the effect of the 100% weight 250 would cancel out the effect of the lower weights of the 125/125. The problem I see this having is that it would discourage people from trying to FC maps that are a lot higher than the level they're comfortable at if they had a lot of these lower scores, however.

If your top scores were 150/150/150 there would still be weighting. (100% of the first 150, 95% of the second 150, 90% of the third 150).

I think the pp you get for a score is 0.95^#rank-1 * pp of score.


Ah, that makes more sense. Seems like an ok system for the most part then.

Yeah, it's quite well thought out I think. The only real issue I see is what we discussed earlier (how to rate the difficulty of a map).
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
April 13 2014 22:05 GMT
#5118
On April 14 2014 07:03 maru~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2014 07:00 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:58 maru~ wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:45 ebacho wrote:
On April 14 2014 06:34 Cyro wrote:
I was thinking that if you started on a fresh account/smurf, and you had a certain skill level "x," you can sandbag and cluster all your submitted scores around a certain top pp, which would negate the weighing.


But your weaker scores don't drag you down, they only add slightly to your top scores. The new account would have lower rank than the old one with the same high scores plus more


My understanding was that a large gap between your top score and your lower scores would lower the pp you got even more - though I'm not quite sure I get the new system regardless.

If my only three scores were, say, 150/150/150, then there shouldn't be any weighing, right? But if I got something like 250/125/125, the 125 scores would be worth a lot less.

Fake edit: As I typed the above I think I got what you were trying to say - the effect of the 100% weight 250 would cancel out the effect of the lower weights of the 125/125. The problem I see this having is that it would discourage people from trying to FC maps that are a lot higher than the level they're comfortable at if they had a lot of these lower scores, however.

If your top scores were 150/150/150 there would still be weighting. (100% of the first 150, 95% of the second 150, 90% of the third 150).

I think the pp you get for a score is 0.95^#rank-1 * pp of score.


Ah, that makes more sense. Seems like an ok system for the most part then.

Yeah, it's quite well thought out I think. The only real issue I see is what we discussed earlier (how to rate the difficulty of a map).


One of the things that the system doesn't do is read how difficult patterns actually are. Tom94 mentioned that's one the things he really wants the system to do. Maps like Scarlet Rose and other val clusterfuck type maps don't have a very high star rating or give much pp because of this. The system just sees the sliders and can't see how hard they are to do.
ebacho
Profile Joined July 2009
United States193 Posts
April 13 2014 22:11 GMT
#5119
Patterns, as was mentioned earlier, are super subjective though. Sometimes I have problems doing patterns that a person would have no issue sightreading because I tend to project ahead as to what I think an "intuitive" pattern would be (bad habit from playing higher AR/OD HDHR a lot). For most maps this is fine, but it'll really come back and kill me on certain maps.
Proud member of TL's osufam
scottyyy
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom796 Posts
April 13 2014 22:11 GMT
#5120
Yeah that's why the system doesn't calculate them yet.
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