EVE Corporation - Page 280

On January 16 2011 06:07 r.Evo wrote:


The "random T2 fit closerange BC blob" can do exactly that. Blob people. "Winning the ISK war" sucks balls if half your fleet dies and you don't hold the field.

The goal for a competent fleet is a train of death which fights whenever the hell it wants to against almost any odds it wants to and with a high individual survivability. You can't train this in random shitblobs which need the odds on their side. A fleet which fights within normal BC range (10-25km) can never have the same survivability as a fleet which can abuse gallente/minmatar recon tackle range (50-90km).

Do you die in a fire, especially in the beginning? Hell yes.
Can you rape the shit out of people once people in fleet learn not to suck balls? Hell, yes.


The only chance "real" shortrange fleets stand a chance is if the hostile fleet is

a) vs shortranged shitblob, gives chase offgate and gets stretched out while the closerange blobs fights in a tight formation.
b) vs retarded longrange FC who gets caught closerange

In both scenarios you will still face heavy losses simply because of the nature of your engagement range. Avoiding this is key to any kind of higher level fleet PvP.


There are alliances in this game who give a shit about cost efficiency and try to be the best at what they do (PL, DS, Genos come to mind) and therefor achieve high isk efficiency once they get their shit together, and there are alliances/corps who put the isk efficiency before actual player skill. Whoever was rolling with Liquid in GC witnessed how that ends.


Edit: Pahndahs scouting is too high level for most people. He keeps the FC happy, the fleet entertained and is competent when he has to. I prefer a flashgaming scout who tells me shit about his scanning around for nightmares who's alert when he needs to over some random dude who doesn't really know when his attention is needed but gives too much information at the risk of everyone falling asleep. =P

On January 15 2011 16:30 419 wrote:
^^

Raging over vent for 1 hour is generally an effective tactic.

MSE is perfectly viable, though I'd probably still go AB/200/SAR for tackling purposes. Will tank long against big things once you settle into orbit. Its not like a rifter will hold point 'long' against a dram unless two of the three following conditions are met

1) rifter in combat fit
2) dramiel is retard
3) you're gaying him with TDs

I can't remember the intricacies of rifter fitting but I believe MSE/scram/AB rifter w/ neut will dispatch 200/SAR fits easily (due to extra gyro). It might lose against 400mm brick rifters but there's nothing wrong with a shield fit. You gain a fair bit of agility w/ shield fit too which is nice if you're used to minmatar ships.

Stacked speed mods are bad but if you're using t1 guns its not like your dps is going to be that significant.

Also, are you seriously arguing that he should carry an LR point to tackle a dramiel? Simply awful.

The gist of it is that you have a long way to go before becoming a certified killboard commenter/white knight services provider.

Okay, constructive criticism:

Rigs - CDFE is probably better. If you don't like the sig penalty, go something like damage rigs.
Lows - MSE fit generally dictates the DCU/gyro/(speed or nano) setup
Mids - Scram/MSE - you have the choice of AB or MWD here. If you're just trying to get initial point -- MWD and use a t1 shitfit. For actual combat, AB all the way. Barring sader/TEwolf/slicer/tackleceptors, there's not many ships that really merit carrying a disruptor. Therefore its safe to assume that 80% of the frigs you'll run into are carrying scram, which means MWD is of marginal value, once you close range.
Highs - I've had long arguments over this but I would go 150mm over 200mm. You have the right idea here.

The "random T2 fit closerange BC blob" can do exactly that. Blob people. "Winning the ISK war" sucks balls if half your fleet dies and you don't hold the field.

The goal for a competent fleet is a train of death which fights whenever the hell it wants to against almost any odds it wants to and with a high individual survivability. You can't train this in random shitblobs which need the odds on their side.

A fleet which fights within normal BC range (10-25km) can never have the same survivability as a fleet which can abuse gallente/minmatar recon tackle range (50-90km).

Do you die in a fire, especially in the beginning? Hell yes.

Can you rape the shit out of people once people in fleet learn not to suck balls? Hell, yes.

The only chance "real" shortrange fleets stand a chance is if the hostile fleet is

a) vs shortranged shitblob, gives chase offgate and gets stretched out while the closerange blobs fights in a tight formation.
b) vs retarded longrange FC who gets caught closerange

In both scenarios you will still face heavy losses simply because of the nature of your engagement range. Avoiding this is key to any kind of higher level fleet PvP.

There are alliances in this game who give a shit about cost efficiency and try to be the best at what they do (PL, DS, Genos come to mind) and therefor achieve high isk efficiency once they get their shit together, and there are alliances/corps who put the isk efficiency before actual player skill. Whoever was rolling with Liquid in GC witnessed how that ends.

4. Also, are you mindly challenged about me saying he should carry a loing point to tackle a dramiel ? (Im pretty sure I just said that the short point made no sense with his fit. In any case, a dual prop dramiel will still leave at will from a scram MSE rifter. (again, was bagging on the fact we might get lucky and face a dumb dramiel)

Taking these things into account, it's easy to see why it's tempting to keep doing shield roam after shield roam. Inertia is not to be underestimated. However, if you're lucky, you'll get a wake-up call. It might come in the form of a Darkside. Drake/Tengu/Long Point Recon fleet stomping on you despite having half your numbers. It might be 30 PL baddons and t3s with 10 guardians bridging right onto your 80 man shield BCs and having their way with your anus. Whatever it may be, the sooner you realize that well thought out, well practiced, and innovative fleet comps are essential to not being a scrub, the better.

On January 16 2011 09:57 419 wrote:

Well yes, a dramiel will leave with either SR or LR point. At least with SR you can get him to run away slower for your reinforcements to arrive.

Also, shield skills are crazily multiplicative. The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter.

On January 16 2011 10:31 419 wrote:
Another random thought, to the "lets be elite!" crew.

What's wrong with the following syllogism?

Gentlemen's Club uses BCs
GC was terrible
therefore, BCs are terrible

There are plenty of confounding factors there, the most relevant which is "do I know how to fly my ship?"

Sure you can say that the HAMdrake is just scram/web approach f1, but there are 'basic' things that actually matter during an engagement, even with the supposedly retard-proof t2-fit BC:
1. What do I tackle?
2. How do I disengage (tank during the gate aggression timer or burn off)?
3. What's my targeting priority (which should, in small gangs, not be purely micromanaged by the FC)
4. What are the greatest/lowest-tank threats on the field?
5. How should I adjust my piloting to compensate?

If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition. Even if you had infinite isk and an infinite SP distribution machine, you wouldn't make an agony training class do an AB armor HAC roam. Even if it was effective and you ganked lots of shit with few casualties, it wouldn't teach much. There's a certain set of basics required to fly any advanced fleet comp passably; you can't just diaf repeatedly in your special snowflake gang and expect to learn fast.

I know I say that its harder to judge how differences in individual skill make the difference in a fleet victory, but that's not to say its the deciding factor.

To put it another way, why is Endless Subversion's 100MN AB Tengu so effective? The simplistic answer is to say its the fit that makes it so good, but its really the fact that he's a damn good pilot that makes it sublime.

You can apply the same concept with "special fleet compositions", or "awesome fits".

On January 16 2011 10:22 TurpinOS wrote:


Okay, i guess i wasnt clear enough, I know that a SR point is better then A LR point when trying to tackle a dramiel, what I said is that the fit in itself made no sense (i wasnt actually refering to the engagement in itself).

The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter.

exactly, the fact that its crazily multiplicative explains why you should have these, instead of stacking speed rigs which are not multiplicative at all.

edit : by 7k ehp i obviously meant 5k +

+ Show Spoiler +

Also, dont take it personnaly tofu, this is not against you, i just love making general discussions.

On January 16 2011 10:57 Guilford wrote:


why don't use overdrive injector instead? it gives more speed boost and no hull penalty. Nanofiber internal structure gives better alight time though. If it's for a bit more tank, the overdrive is better :D

+ Show Spoiler +

On January 16 2011 09:47 s_side wrote:


Pretty much, what Revo is saying.

Like he said, all of the year+ old Liquid guys saw exactly how to ensure mediocrity in EvE PVP. Short term, you're going to do best staying in your comfort zone. Yes, I'm talking about the same comfort zone that every 0.0 nooblet finds themselves in at first: BATTLECRUISERS!

It's easy, cheap and relatively effective to roll around in the biggest BC blob you can muster. This is less a function of the power of BCs in Eve and more the result of a couple simple facts: most of the pilots in Eve are very, very bad. This means that you WILL have idiots in your fleet regardless of whether you're in The Hatchery or PL or Darkside. Battlecruisers are about as forgiving as ships get. They're cheap as fuck (almost free after insurance), they're not too squishy, and their align times are reasonable. It's easier to avoid doing dumb things in BCs and if you do, you have a chance to survive. If you die, you can go shoot at little red boxes for an hour and buy another one.

Furthermore, referring back to Gordon's #1 Eve Rule (most pilots in Eve are shit), chances are, unless you're unlucky or simply in the wrong place, the people you'll be fighting won't be very competent. It's perfectly viable to be able to have a reasonably respectable isk K/D ratio on your killboard doing nothing but roaming in shield BC.

Taking these things into account, it's easy to see why it's tempting to keep doing shield roam after shield roam. Inertia is not to be underestimated. However, if you're lucky, you'll get a wake-up call. It might come in the form of a Darkside. Drake/Tengu/Long Point Recon fleet stomping on you despite having half your numbers. It might be 30 PL baddons and t3s with 10 guardians bridging right onto your 80 man shield BCs and having their way with your anus. Whatever it may be, the sooner you realize that well thought out, well practiced, and innovative fleet comps are essential to not being a scrub, the better.

/end rant.

On January 16 2011 11:41 tofucake wrote:
http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8549836
Found him in a belt in Bosena. After I killed him I pointed his pod and ransomed him for 1m. Nejota bumped me so I lost point. After I looked at the killmail I felt bad and sent him 10m.

I think I'm a bad pirate.

On January 16 2011 10:31 419 wrote:
Another random thought, to the "lets be elite!" crew.

What's wrong with the following syllogism?

Gentlemen's Club uses BCs
GC was terrible
therefore, BCs are terrible

There are plenty of confounding factors there, the most relevant which is "do I know how to fly my ship?"

Sure you can say that the HAMdrake is just scram/web approach f1, but there are 'basic' things that actually matter during an engagement, even with the supposedly retard-proof t2-fit BC:
1. What do I tackle?
2. How do I disengage (tank during the gate aggression timer or burn off)?
3. What's my targeting priority (which should, in small gangs, not be purely micromanaged by the FC)
4. What are the greatest/lowest-tank threats on the field?
5. How should I adjust my piloting to compensate?

If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition. Even if you had infinite isk and an infinite SP distribution machine, you wouldn't make an agony training class do an AB armor HAC roam. Even if it was effective and you ganked lots of shit with few casualties, it wouldn't teach much. There's a certain set of basics required to fly any advanced fleet comp passably; you can't just diaf repeatedly in your special snowflake gang and expect to learn fast.

I know I say that its harder to judge how differences in individual skill make the difference in a fleet victory, but that's not to say its the deciding factor.

To put it another way, why is Endless Subversion's 100MN AB Tengu so effective? The simplistic answer is to say its the fit that makes it so good, but its really the fact that he's a damn good pilot that makes it sublime.

You can apply the same concept with "special fleet compositions", or "awesome fits".