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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34490 Posts
all their tengus redocked and they just had just a drake watching us. i was curious to see what they'd do so i undocked in a completely unfit rupture. after 30 seconds, drake locks me, they undock 3 tengus, and.......i redock, tada. then karah's buzzard bugs out and approaches station, uncloaking himself while he was alt-tabbed, and obviously gets 1shot by the drake. luckily he managed to get his pod out. | ||
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Capiru
Brazil170 Posts
"Dimuta> <url=showinfo:1375//544158427> Gemini 3 </ url> Sorry for the language you just for licking and chatter ... and the hoof is not growing back ..." | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
 At least i didnt lose my pod again, i just now figured i could have redocked instantly instead of trying to warp away. fuck me. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19029 Posts
On January 16 2011 06:23 Firebolt145 wrote: 20km/s mach? wtf anyway we were chasing a zealot and a tempest around emol when suddenly i see a tengu appear and recloak on grid on the ammold gate. immediately spammed corp chat telling everyone to dock up. next thing you know, they have 4 tengus, a tempest, a drake and a zealot/mach in local and they start flaming karah (the only one among us that speaks russian) for us docking up lololol MWD used to be ridic. | ||
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s_side
United States700 Posts
On January 16 2011 06:07 r.Evo wrote: The "random T2 fit closerange BC blob" can do exactly that. Blob people. "Winning the ISK war" sucks balls if half your fleet dies and you don't hold the field. The goal for a competent fleet is a train of death which fights whenever the hell it wants to against almost any odds it wants to and with a high individual survivability. You can't train this in random shitblobs which need the odds on their side. A fleet which fights within normal BC range (10-25km) can never have the same survivability as a fleet which can abuse gallente/minmatar recon tackle range (50-90km). Do you die in a fire, especially in the beginning? Hell yes. Can you rape the shit out of people once people in fleet learn not to suck balls? Hell, yes. The only chance "real" shortrange fleets stand a chance is if the hostile fleet is a) vs shortranged shitblob, gives chase offgate and gets stretched out while the closerange blobs fights in a tight formation. b) vs retarded longrange FC who gets caught closerange In both scenarios you will still face heavy losses simply because of the nature of your engagement range. Avoiding this is key to any kind of higher level fleet PvP. There are alliances in this game who give a shit about cost efficiency and try to be the best at what they do (PL, DS, Genos come to mind) and therefor achieve high isk efficiency once they get their shit together, and there are alliances/corps who put the isk efficiency before actual player skill. Whoever was rolling with Liquid in GC witnessed how that ends. Edit: Pahndahs scouting is too high level for most people. He keeps the FC happy, the fleet entertained and is competent when he has to. I prefer a flashgaming scout who tells me shit about his scanning around for nightmares who's alert when he needs to over some random dude who doesn't really know when his attention is needed but gives too much information at the risk of everyone falling asleep. =P Pretty much, what Revo is saying. Like he said, all of the year+ old Liquid guys saw exactly how to ensure mediocrity in EvE PVP. Short term, you're going to do best staying in your comfort zone. Yes, I'm talking about the same comfort zone that every 0.0 nooblet finds themselves in at first: BATTLECRUISERS! It's easy, cheap and relatively effective to roll around in the biggest BC blob you can muster. This is less a function of the power of BCs in Eve and more the result of a couple simple facts: most of the pilots in Eve are very, very bad. This means that you WILL have idiots in your fleet regardless of whether you're in The Hatchery or PL or Darkside. Battlecruisers are about as forgiving as ships get. They're cheap as fuck (almost free after insurance), they're not too squishy, and their align times are reasonable. It's easier to avoid doing dumb things in BCs and if you do, you have a chance to survive. If you die, you can go shoot at little red boxes for an hour and buy another one. Furthermore, referring back to Gordon's #1 Eve Rule (most pilots in Eve are shit), chances are, unless you're unlucky or simply in the wrong place, the people you'll be fighting won't be very competent. It's perfectly viable to be able to have a reasonably respectable isk K/D ratio on your killboard doing nothing but roaming in shield BC. Taking these things into account, it's easy to see why it's tempting to keep doing shield roam after shield roam. Inertia is not to be underestimated. However, if you're lucky, you'll get a wake-up call. It might come in the form of a Darkside. Drake/Tengu/Long Point Recon fleet stomping on you despite having half your numbers. It might be 30 PL baddons and t3s with 10 guardians bridging right onto your 80 man shield BCs and having their way with your anus. Whatever it may be, the sooner you realize that well thought out, well practiced, and innovative fleet comps are essential to not being a scrub, the better. /end rant. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On January 15 2011 16:30 419 wrote: ^^ Raging over vent for 1 hour is generally an effective tactic. MSE is perfectly viable, though I'd probably still go AB/200/SAR for tackling purposes. Will tank long against big things once you settle into orbit. Its not like a rifter will hold point 'long' against a dram unless two of the three following conditions are met 1) rifter in combat fit 2) dramiel is retard 3) you're gaying him with TDs I can't remember the intricacies of rifter fitting but I believe MSE/scram/AB rifter w/ neut will dispatch 200/SAR fits easily (due to extra gyro). It might lose against 400mm brick rifters but there's nothing wrong with a shield fit. You gain a fair bit of agility w/ shield fit too which is nice if you're used to minmatar ships. Stacked speed mods are bad but if you're using t1 guns its not like your dps is going to be that significant. Also, are you seriously arguing that he should carry an LR point to tackle a dramiel? Simply awful. The gist of it is that you have a long way to go before becoming a certified killboard commenter/white knight services provider. Okay, constructive criticism: Rigs - CDFE is probably better. If you don't like the sig penalty, go something like damage rigs. Lows - MSE fit generally dictates the DCU/gyro/(speed or nano) setup Mids - Scram/MSE - you have the choice of AB or MWD here. If you're just trying to get initial point -- MWD and use a t1 shitfit. For actual combat, AB all the way. Barring sader/TEwolf/slicer/tackleceptors, there's not many ships that really merit carrying a disruptor. Therefore its safe to assume that 80% of the frigs you'll run into are carrying scram, which means MWD is of marginal value, once you close range. Highs - I've had long arguments over this but I would go 150mm over 200mm. You have the right idea here. Just came back, and even though I havent read the whole topic, i figured id have to answer this. 1. MSE fit is okay, if you dont fit it like a retard (my MSE rifter has 7500 ehp, his has 2k) 2. I didnt ask him to hold point long, I asked for more then 15s, he could have lost it by the point we landed, but he shouldnt have been deadd 3. 5 speed mods is horrible, obviously your dps is shit with t1 guns but youre still better off with other things (aka ehp) 4. Also, are you mindly challenged about me saying he should carry a loing point to tackle a dramiel ? (Im pretty sure I just said that the short point made no sense with his fit. In any case, a dual prop dramiel will still leave at will from a scram MSE rifter. (again, was bagging on the fact we might get lucky and face a dumb dramiel) 5. The gist of it is you obviously either cant read at all (ill put my money on it) or have never flown a rifter Its a shitfit, neeeds a DCU, needs some useful rigs. My whole point was the fact that even tho i didnt exactly expect him to keep the point on a dramiel (unless lucky///dumb dram), he shouldnt have died if he had a proper fit. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Of course 50 battlecruisers is a suboptimal gang setup. But 5 BCs is perfectly justifiable. So, yea, we're probably talking about different things. Lachs and huginns aren't great choices at the 3-10 man gang level, for obvious reasons. The "random T2 fit closerange BC blob" can do exactly that. Blob people. "Winning the ISK war" sucks balls if half your fleet dies and you don't hold the field. 95% of my BC gang engagements were vs. larger gangs, often double the size...you should probably learn some terminology before spouting off what you know little about. And 'holding the field' is one of the main causes of blob syndrome. Some people play (or played, in my case) Eve for the fights, you know. The goal for a competent fleet is a train of death which fights whenever the hell it wants to against almost any odds it wants to and with a high individual survivability. You can't train this in random shitblobs which need the odds on their side. You can also leverage the fact that 90% of the people you run into are retards. A fleet which fights within normal BC range (10-25km) can never have the same survivability as a fleet which can abuse gallente/minmatar recon tackle range (50-90km). Yes, you actually have to be very decent to make that work, and the gang size at which recons start becoming useful is probably around the 6+. I am "how do I put together an effective null roam with less than 5 people, to engage groups of 8+?". Optimistically 3 DPS / 1 scout / 1 logi but most of the time its 5 DPS or 4 DPS/ 1 scout. Do you die in a fire, especially in the beginning? Hell yes. Can you rape the shit out of people once people in fleet learn not to suck balls? Hell, yes. This is not the correct model for the Hatchery. You cite PL and Genos. AB Armor HAC or artymach/lach/scimmy/huginn/drake/cane will not work due to: A. requiring significant force concentration B. requiring high SP, high specialization C. requiring specialized leadership roles (t3 ganglinks are a must) D. "is hella expensive" The only chance "real" shortrange fleets stand a chance is if the hostile fleet is a) vs shortranged shitblob, gives chase offgate and gets stretched out while the closerange blobs fights in a tight formation. b) vs retarded longrange FC who gets caught closerange I've noticed the Hatchery uses gangs generally of 10 or less people. How the fuck do you put together an LR gang with less than 10 people? Maybe scimmy/drake/cane, but as far as specialized, no way you can do LR shield HAC. In both scenarios you will still face heavy losses simply because of the nature of your engagement range. Avoiding this is key to any kind of higher level fleet PvP. Higher level fleet PvP (50+) was never my taste so I can't comment about this. There are alliances in this game who give a shit about cost efficiency and try to be the best at what they do (PL, DS, Genos come to mind) and therefor achieve high isk efficiency once they get their shit together, and there are alliances/corps who put the isk efficiency before actual player skill. Whoever was rolling with Liquid in GC witnessed how that ends. Genos is probably one of the high-level PvP corps that cares least about isk efficiency. See: Prometheus Exenthal and officer-fit Vindicators and Tengus. Good for engaging large amounts of people? Yes. Actually cost-effective? Probably not, but who cares, sell an Utu or something. PODLA is the same way -- I've seen Alvachi and Naxias suicide into M-O gatecamps with their (awesomely innovative) nano drakes. 4. Also, are you mindly challenged about me saying he should carry a loing point to tackle a dramiel ? (Im pretty sure I just said that the short point made no sense with his fit. In any case, a dual prop dramiel will still leave at will from a scram MSE rifter. (again, was bagging on the fact we might get lucky and face a dumb dramiel) Well yes, a dramiel will leave with either SR or LR point. At least with SR you can get him to run away slower for your reinforcements to arrive. Also, shield skills are crazily multiplicative. The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter. Taking these things into account, it's easy to see why it's tempting to keep doing shield roam after shield roam. Inertia is not to be underestimated. However, if you're lucky, you'll get a wake-up call. It might come in the form of a Darkside. Drake/Tengu/Long Point Recon fleet stomping on you despite having half your numbers. It might be 30 PL baddons and t3s with 10 guardians bridging right onto your 80 man shield BCs and having their way with your anus. Whatever it may be, the sooner you realize that well thought out, well practiced, and innovative fleet comps are essential to not being a scrub, the better. *shrug* To each his own, I guess. Beyond a 10 man gang it seems that individual skill (if you're not flying a logi) gets suppressed against the overall background of how good your fleet composition is. In a 5v10 battle, at least, I know exactly how the battle progressed, what mistakes I made, and they made, etc. Whereas if you're just owning BC scrubs mindlessly or getting owned by DS drakefleets...there's not much individual skill can do to make up with deficiencies in fleet comp + FC decisions. I find Genos gaying people with 10 ospreys, bait/gank t1 cruiser gangs, or Roemy Schneider killing (legit non-shitfit) Vagabonds in his combat Scimitar more impressive than taking on 60 AB armor HAC vs 200 scrubships + wildly incompetent FCs. Nothing against you PL people -- you lot have some truly awesome theorycrafters, but as is obvious, I was more of a small gang person. Again, to each his own. | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19029 Posts
Also, aside from having a nano instead of a DCU, and a nos, my fit is a t2 version of the shield rifter in corp fittings. And it still has 2300 ehp. Give me a 7k ehp fit. Also, maybe say something. I link my fit before every roam or op, and I change according to what the FC tells me. The simple fact is that you approved my fit before we left on that roam. | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On January 16 2011 09:57 419 wrote: Well yes, a dramiel will leave with either SR or LR point. At least with SR you can get him to run away slower for your reinforcements to arrive. Also, shield skills are crazily multiplicative. The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter. Okay, i guess i wasnt clear enough, I know that a SR point is better then A LR point when trying to tackle a dramiel, what I said is that the fit in itself made no sense (i wasnt actually refering to the engagement in itself). The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter. exactly, the fact that its crazily multiplicative explains why you should have these, instead of stacking speed rigs which are not multiplicative at all. edit : by 7k ehp i obviously meant 5k +  + Show Spoiler + My personal fav. fit for a nullsec tackling shield rifter (mwd - speed - mse) ![[image loading]](http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1876/rifta.png) I obviously say fuck dps to maximise speed and ehp. Also, dont take it personnaly tofu, this is not against you, i just love making general discussions. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
What's wrong with the following syllogism? Gentlemen's Club uses BCs GC was terrible therefore, BCs are terrible There are plenty of confounding factors there, the most relevant which is "do I know how to fly my ship?" Sure you can say that the HAMdrake is just scram/web approach f1, but there are 'basic' things that actually matter during an engagement, even with the supposedly retard-proof t2-fit BC: 1. What do I tackle? 2. How do I disengage (tank during the gate aggression timer or burn off)? 3. What's my targeting priority (which should, in small gangs, not be purely micromanaged by the FC) 4. What are the greatest/lowest-tank threats on the field? 5. How should I adjust my piloting to compensate? If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition. Even if you had infinite isk and an infinite SP distribution machine, you wouldn't make an agony training class do an AB armor HAC roam. Even if it was effective and you ganked lots of shit with few casualties, it wouldn't teach much. There's a certain set of basics required to fly any advanced fleet comp passably; you can't just diaf repeatedly in your special snowflake gang and expect to learn fast. I know I say that its harder to judge how differences in individual skill make the difference in a fleet victory, but that's not to say its the deciding factor. To put it another way, why is Endless Subversion's 100MN AB Tengu so effective? The simplistic answer is to say its the fit that makes it so good, but its really the fact that he's a damn good pilot that makes it sublime. You can apply the same concept with "special fleet compositions", or "awesome fits". | ||
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Inzek
Chile802 Posts
On January 16 2011 10:31 419 wrote: Another random thought, to the "lets be elite!" crew. What's wrong with the following syllogism? Gentlemen's Club uses BCs GC was terrible therefore, BCs are terrible There are plenty of confounding factors there, the most relevant which is "do I know how to fly my ship?" Sure you can say that the HAMdrake is just scram/web approach f1, but there are 'basic' things that actually matter during an engagement, even with the supposedly retard-proof t2-fit BC: 1. What do I tackle? 2. How do I disengage (tank during the gate aggression timer or burn off)? 3. What's my targeting priority (which should, in small gangs, not be purely micromanaged by the FC) 4. What are the greatest/lowest-tank threats on the field? 5. How should I adjust my piloting to compensate? If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition. Even if you had infinite isk and an infinite SP distribution machine, you wouldn't make an agony training class do an AB armor HAC roam. Even if it was effective and you ganked lots of shit with few casualties, it wouldn't teach much. There's a certain set of basics required to fly any advanced fleet comp passably; you can't just diaf repeatedly in your special snowflake gang and expect to learn fast. I know I say that its harder to judge how differences in individual skill make the difference in a fleet victory, but that's not to say its the deciding factor. To put it another way, why is Endless Subversion's 100MN AB Tengu so effective? The simplistic answer is to say its the fit that makes it so good, but its really the fact that he's a damn good pilot that makes it sublime. You can apply the same concept with "special fleet compositions", or "awesome fits". let me understand.... black cats are black...ok | ||
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Guilford
Australia290 Posts
On January 16 2011 10:22 TurpinOS wrote: Okay, i guess i wasnt clear enough, I know that a SR point is better then A LR point when trying to tackle a dramiel, what I said is that the fit in itself made no sense (i wasnt actually refering to the engagement in itself). The reason for your EHP difference is shield management (25%), rigs (45%), DCU (~20%)...and CDFE is debatable on tackling rifter. exactly, the fact that its crazily multiplicative explains why you should have these, instead of stacking speed rigs which are not multiplicative at all. edit : by 7k ehp i obviously meant 5k + + Show Spoiler + My personal fav. fit for a nullsec tackling shield rifter (mwd - speed - mse) I obviously say fuck dps to maximise speed and ehp. Also, dont take it personnaly tofu, this is not against you, i just love making general discussions. why don't use overdrive injector instead? it gives more speed boost and no hull penalty. Nanofiber internal structure gives better alight time though. If it's for a bit more tank, the overdrive is better :D + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KuY94.jpg) | ||
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TurpinOS
Canada1223 Posts
On January 16 2011 10:57 Guilford wrote: why don't use overdrive injector instead? it gives more speed boost and no hull penalty. Nanofiber internal structure gives better alight time though. If it's for a bit more tank, the overdrive is better :D + Show Spoiler + bweee i just like my nanos but you are perfectly correct, its also possible to switch the gyro for another speed mod but i still like to have some dps if i need to pop something, the rifter is one of the frigs on which you can try the most different amount of shits and make it work. (you just dont want to ''think too far out of the box'') | ||
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tofucake
Hyrule19029 Posts
Found him in a belt in Bosena. After I killed him I pointed his pod and ransomed him for 1m. Nejota bumped me so I lost point. After I looked at the killmail I felt bad and sent him 10m. I think I'm a bad pirate. | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
On January 16 2011 09:47 s_side wrote: Pretty much, what Revo is saying. Like he said, all of the year+ old Liquid guys saw exactly how to ensure mediocrity in EvE PVP. Short term, you're going to do best staying in your comfort zone. Yes, I'm talking about the same comfort zone that every 0.0 nooblet finds themselves in at first: BATTLECRUISERS! It's easy, cheap and relatively effective to roll around in the biggest BC blob you can muster. This is less a function of the power of BCs in Eve and more the result of a couple simple facts: most of the pilots in Eve are very, very bad. This means that you WILL have idiots in your fleet regardless of whether you're in The Hatchery or PL or Darkside. Battlecruisers are about as forgiving as ships get. They're cheap as fuck (almost free after insurance), they're not too squishy, and their align times are reasonable. It's easier to avoid doing dumb things in BCs and if you do, you have a chance to survive. If you die, you can go shoot at little red boxes for an hour and buy another one. Furthermore, referring back to Gordon's #1 Eve Rule (most pilots in Eve are shit), chances are, unless you're unlucky or simply in the wrong place, the people you'll be fighting won't be very competent. It's perfectly viable to be able to have a reasonably respectable isk K/D ratio on your killboard doing nothing but roaming in shield BC. Taking these things into account, it's easy to see why it's tempting to keep doing shield roam after shield roam. Inertia is not to be underestimated. However, if you're lucky, you'll get a wake-up call. It might come in the form of a Darkside. Drake/Tengu/Long Point Recon fleet stomping on you despite having half your numbers. It might be 30 PL baddons and t3s with 10 guardians bridging right onto your 80 man shield BCs and having their way with your anus. Whatever it may be, the sooner you realize that well thought out, well practiced, and innovative fleet comps are essential to not being a scrub, the better. /end rant. maybe true...if your average pilot has more than 5m sp. | ||
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nataziel
Australia1455 Posts
On January 16 2011 11:41 tofucake wrote: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8549836 Found him in a belt in Bosena. After I killed him I pointed his pod and ransomed him for 1m. Nejota bumped me so I lost point. After I looked at the killmail I felt bad and sent him 10m. I think I'm a bad pirate. hahahaha poor guy | ||
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s_side
United States700 Posts
On January 16 2011 10:31 419 wrote: Another random thought, to the "lets be elite!" crew. What's wrong with the following syllogism? Gentlemen's Club uses BCs GC was terrible therefore, BCs are terrible There are plenty of confounding factors there, the most relevant which is "do I know how to fly my ship?" Sure you can say that the HAMdrake is just scram/web approach f1, but there are 'basic' things that actually matter during an engagement, even with the supposedly retard-proof t2-fit BC: 1. What do I tackle? 2. How do I disengage (tank during the gate aggression timer or burn off)? 3. What's my targeting priority (which should, in small gangs, not be purely micromanaged by the FC) 4. What are the greatest/lowest-tank threats on the field? 5. How should I adjust my piloting to compensate? If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition. Even if you had infinite isk and an infinite SP distribution machine, you wouldn't make an agony training class do an AB armor HAC roam. Even if it was effective and you ganked lots of shit with few casualties, it wouldn't teach much. There's a certain set of basics required to fly any advanced fleet comp passably; you can't just diaf repeatedly in your special snowflake gang and expect to learn fast. I know I say that its harder to judge how differences in individual skill make the difference in a fleet victory, but that's not to say its the deciding factor. To put it another way, why is Endless Subversion's 100MN AB Tengu so effective? The simplistic answer is to say its the fit that makes it so good, but its really the fact that he's a damn good pilot that makes it sublime. You can apply the same concept with "special fleet compositions", or "awesome fits". I really hope this is a troll. If not, it reeks of stupid on so many levels. I'll bite regardless, I guess. I'm going to ignore the GC bit because evidence from GC experience is anecdotal and needs to be looked at as such. Furthermore, the good parts of GC were about 1987129387x better than The Hatchery is at present (sorry Kwark, I love you). Mukk, Mya and Faffy get this game better than almost everyone who's ever opened this thread. ~Okay, so I guess I did kind of get into it.~ Much of your post is mostly ramblings, but I'll do what I can to address the "point": If you assume that fleet composition, and fittings, and things that don't relate to how you individually fly are the only things that matter, you're in for a rude surprise when you roll out in your new imba fleet composition No one is assuming this. That's why the better alliances in Eve don't recruit based on "what do you have enough SP to fly?" Also, let me know about those rude surprises in my IMBA fleet comps. Where did I say/imply that having a majority of reasonably competent pilots in your fleet wasn't a huge advantage? Saying that every fleet has retards is just a reality. If you're talking about percentages, of course "better" alliances are going to have less spastics. I guess I could write more, but I'll just leave you with my solemn wish that you post better in the future. | ||
KwarK
United States42533 Posts
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pahndah
1193 Posts
1) Jump into the next system when the rest of your own fleet jumps into the one you are currently in. 2) Report local count and hit d-scan once. If ships on gate with you go to step 2a. If you find ships/rat wrecks on d-scan go to step 2b. If nothing on scan, go to step 3. 2a) Report ship types on gate if neut/red and wait for orders. Gate crash if needed and/or find a way to keep eyes on ships. 2b) Find those ratters and receive no praise when you get the tackle 3) Warp across system to out gate and spam scan button. If ships on outgate go to 3a. If you see rat wrecks/ships during warp go to step 3b. If nothing, tell FC all clear. 3a) Report ship types on gate if neut/red and wait for orders. 3b) Find those ratters and receive no praise when you get tackle. 4) When you run out of options, warp to out gate. 5) Feel free to play flash games during steps 2 and step 3 if you want. Don't worry, the FC will wait for you. | ||
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
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