EPTdid you just mention risk vs reward as a argument for skynet being fine you stupid fuck?
thanks based gorski
EVE Corporation - Page 1937
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
thanks based gorski | ||
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hagon
United Kingdom556 Posts
On February 27 2015 11:29 Lysenko wrote: I don't think that's really fair, I mean there's not really a good way to know when the game is "balanced" other than by feel and by what people's choices are. They buffed and nerfed things before based on what were under- and over-used, and they're doing the same things now. I'd to point to just a couple of the ships and weapon systems that CCP have toned down to "bring [them] in line with other weapons" [CCP Fozzie, Fifty-nine Down - Ship Balancing for Retribution - 2012-11-15] Drakes and Hurricanes took major hits in Retribution 1.1, the Drake doubly so as its nerf stacked on top of a Retribution 1.0 nerf to HML. At the time Fozzie said "we must ... ensure that we are ready to make rapid follow-up changes as necessary." [No Brakes - Ship and Module Balancing in Retribution 1.1 - 2013-02-14] Since that time we have seen not only Drakes and Hurricanes almost die out in almost every class of PvP, but the entire Battlecruiser ship class. CCP worried about "creating ships that are simply superior Cruisers": don't worry, you didn't. Likewise HML have declined to almost no usage at all. But nary a sign of the "vigilance" and "rapid follow-up changes" promised by the balance team. Moving on we have an incoming nerf to medium rails coupled with a Tengu EHP nerf. These address the absolute superiority of railgun Tengu in the medium mobility fleet warfare class (I'm sorry, I couldn't really come up with a better bracket). Every nulsec group is using or has used them extensively over the last 18 months. The medium rail buff came in Odyssey 1.1 [October 9th 2013]. CFC fleet using rail Tengu October 12 2013. That fit (the Tengu, everything else in the comp has updated significantly) has not changed since introduction. Before the patch hit we were in no doubt that is was a good (i.e. overpowered) doctrine and we have been consistently proved correct. Anyway: drone changes, drone mods came with Inferno 1.0 24th April 2012. I'm a little hazy here because I've already looked up one set of combat history, balance notes, etc and it doesn't seem worth the effort to do it again. But one quote particularly sticks in my mind as it seemed so incongruous at the time. During an ATXI match (ATXI ran July-August 2013) Fozzie said (something along the lines of) "Drones are only so powerful in the context of the Alliance Tournament" which struck me as a bizarre position that clashed with my own observations of play on TQ. Nevertheless CCP stuck with their position and in the HAC buff in Odyssey 1.1 the Ishtar received massive improvements to Sentry Drone usage along with ancillary drone benefits. I believe within a weeks I recall seeing Sentry damage based Ishtar fleets performing very well (I think the first I recall were TRI when they were in the East before their foray into Pure Blind, although they may not have been the first with such a fleet and there were probably others in a similar time frame). The effective power of these ships and weapon systems are not features that have emerged over time. They were apparent and in use as soon as the changes were implemented. Up until this current round of changes, the balance tweaks to Sentry Drones/Dominix/Ishtar have been so fractionally small as to be laughable, a testament to Rise and Fozzie's inability to admit their own errors. Historically when CCP says they want to tone down a ship or weapon system it ends up disappearing entirely. Promised "rapid" re-visits to changes seem to take 2 years...or never. And it is not just ships and weapon systems. Anyone remember Technetium? Received a major rework to remove it as a bottleneck in T2 production? A quick glance through R64 goo prices (they're Dysprosium, Neodymium, Promethium and Thulium if moon mining isn't your thing) suggests to me that CCP hasn't learnt that much from their experience with Tech. Incidentally I don't think these changes are killer blows to either Ishtars or Tengus, and there is a chance that there may be some semblance of balance here, however I do feel justified in questioning CCP's abilities in this area given their historic performance. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
cruiser and BC would have both been viable. all that would have been needed would be some med AC adjustments. balancing complex systems is actually quite hard though, so I can't blame CCP for the trainwreck too much. | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
Should I start playing again? | ||
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Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On February 28 2015 12:13 Ramiel wrote: I think that there is room for improvement in the speed of re balance changes. Also- for the most part I am dissapointed about how badly they skew or are completely misinformed about their 'metrics'. Overall- I am not impressed. Given the old meme regarding Eve's logs and what they apparently show (or don't show) I'm surprised you even graced them with the word "metrics". + Show Spoiler + "Metrics" is almost a trigger for me, as I absolutely hate how they can be implemented so incredibly poorly. | ||
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
On February 28 2015 12:11 KillerSOS wrote: I've been poking around on Old School Runescape because I miss a strong economy based game.. and then I realized that I used to play this and it has an amazing economy. Should I start playing again? I've been poking around Old School Runescape while playing EVE Online. They go together quite well. | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
On February 28 2015 13:07 Not_Computer wrote: I've been poking around Old School Runescape while playing EVE Online. They go together quite well. Yeah I'm going to give it a shot. Is that recall program still going? If so someone send me a link in a PM. EDIT: I'm good. If TL still has a presence somewhere let me know, I need to find some people to group up with. | ||
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Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On February 28 2015 09:29 hagon wrote:however I do feel justified in questioning CCP's abilities in this area given their historic performance. Fair enough, but Fozzie and Rise both joined CCP less than three years ago, and my guess would be that only now are they really able to start to see long-term impacts of their choices. Also (and I don't claim that this is the case with the Ishtar, which is certainly ridiculously powerful due to combination of cruiser profile, resists, and sentry advantages & bonuses) it's always looked to me like there's a tendency of EVE players to over-concentrate the meta, to pick one great option out of a few great options and soon groupthink labels that the ONLY viable choice. I have to imagine that their slowness to respond in many cases is because they don't want to move against something just because it's the flavor-of-the-month, chasing opinion, rather than actual capability, with balance changes. | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
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Zavior
Finland753 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On March 01 2015 03:46 Lysenko wrote: Also (and I don't claim that this is the case with the Ishtar, which is certainly ridiculously powerful due to combination of cruiser profile, resists, and sentry advantages & bonuses) it's always looked to me like there's a tendency of EVE players to over-concentrate the meta, to pick one great option out of a few great options and soon groupthink labels that the ONLY viable choice. I have to imagine that their slowness to respond in many cases is because they don't want to move against something just because it's the flavor-of-the-month, chasing opinion, rather than actual capability, with balance changes. It's always fun to rail against groupthink, but what's happening here is that fleets are getting adopted because they are the path of least resistance to victory. This adoption happens very rapidly after balance or mechanic changes because it quickly becomes apparent what works and what doesn't and to what degree. This is why the criticism gets leveled at CCP, people figure out the balance changes very quickly but CCP seemingly decides to "wait and see" if things will get shaken up. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
but what's happening here is that fleets are getting adopted because they are the path of least resistance to victory. This adoption happens very rapidly after balance or mechanic changes because it quickly becomes apparent what works and what doesn't and to what degree. Yeah, but how much of that "path of least resistance to victory" is perception? I seriously doubt too many groups (with a couple prominent exceptions) are trying to approach these things by looking at real data on results. I'm not disputing the quality of Ishtar or rail Tengus, but I will note that it took almost a full year for Pandemic Legion to pick up rail Tengus (July, 2014) after the most recent balance changes to medium rails (Odyssey 1.1 in September, 2013), and it's not really something anyone else was doing until they did. A lot of this "oh yeah so and so fit was obvious" seems like 20/20 hindsight to me. | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On March 01 2015 10:13 Lysenko wrote: Yeah, but how much of that "path of least resistance to victory" is perception? I seriously doubt too many groups (with a couple prominent exceptions) are trying to approach these things by looking at real data on results. I'm not disputing the quality of Ishtar or rail Tengus, but I will note that it took almost a full year for Pandemic Legion to pick up rail Tengus (July, 2014) after the most recent balance changes to medium rails (Odyssey 1.1 in September, 2013), and it's not really something anyone else was doing until they did. A lot of this "oh yeah so and so fit was obvious" seems like 20/20 hindsight to me. The probability that there's some uber hidden nullblob fleet out there approaches zero more and more rapidly with each passing day after a balance patch. People, entities, organizations are not necessarily pragmatic. But reality is beholden to pragmatism and thus what works will inevitably be what's fielded, given that competition is ramped enough to warrant it (it isn't always). I'm glad you picked out the counter-example you did. Consider this: how long did CFC run drake fleets when anyone that's been playing the game for over a week would tell you that the same fleet but with Tengus is superior? The Tengu rail fleet is literally just a cruiser-sized, far more expensive, far more SP intensive version of a fleet that has been commonly run for years. EVE lacks a lot of things, but it does not lack in mechanisms that punish blobs running sub-par fleets. If there are better, cheaper, easier, more foolproof blob tactics out there, the first group to hit on them is going to make everyone else hurt. How many times has that happened in the whole history of the game? Maybe a handful? The idea that there's some sleeper fleet out there under the radar seems unrealistic to me, even given the extreme incompetence I've witnessed personally in big null blobs. | ||
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puerk
Germany855 Posts
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WOnYEAU.jpg) Guess at which point kwark stopped picking lycan and started playing mostly veno/ogre/maiden The denies per 10minutes is even funnier, because it increases at that point. | ||
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KillerSOS
United States4207 Posts
On March 01 2015 23:25 Warri wrote: I love dotabuffs new trend feature. Guess at which point kwark stopped picking lycan and started playing mostly veno/ogre/maiden The denies per 10minutes is even funnier, because it increases at that point. Trends don't work for me for some reason... no data on over 2k matches lol. | ||
KwarK
United States43959 Posts
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intana
United Kingdom26 Posts
On March 01 2015 10:13 Lysenko wrote: I'm not disputing the quality of Ishtar or rail Tengus, but I will note that it took almost a full year for Pandemic Legion to pick up rail Tengus (July, 2014) after the most recent balance changes to medium rails (Odyssey 1.1 in September, 2013), and it's not really something anyone else was doing until they did. I remember seeing rail Tengu fleets in other parts of nullsec before that. However, EVE is also about organisation and logistics, and even in an alliance like PL, you'll need to scale up a new doctrine gradually - as it gets gradually accepted, people get more willing to train into it and acquire them in number, FCs are more willing to deploy it etc. It's also about possibilities - and when your existing fleet already dunks the opposition, you don't really have push much in the direction of improvement (which is not just about a few people theorycrafting, but hundreds of people being accepting it. I suspect that cruiser skills were amongst the last subcap skill to be trained widely in nullsec (most people would have already had battleship and battlecruiser skills from previous metas - whereas cruisers had always been less versatile by comparison) To the continuous nerf thing; the problem CCP have is that the game is hard to balance. In the past this was masked, because information on fittings wasn't as readily available, and the average SP in the game was lower. As every imbalance scales linearly or better, CCP are forced to balance around the largest engagements - and the trouble is that whatever they do now, in a couple of months, most alliances will be able to field full fleets of doctrine X. I think the only way they can actually achieve balance at every level is to solve this linear scaling issue - but it won't be a particularly simple fix - in fact it's more likely to be 10s of fixes in all sorts of different areas. | ||
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