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On March 13 2013 19:56 Ramiel wrote:
that fit... makes me so sad. Why are you using t2 launchers?
Why is there a bay loading accelerator?
Since it looks like your prey is mostly tier 3 stuff with AB's you can get the exact same damage application (about 150 / 160 dps) With a bomber using arbalest torps, T2 rigor, and 2 bcs.
Except (unless they changed something) rigors don't work on torps. One of the reason torps are fucking terrible on anything except bombers. They require target painters to apply full DPS to just about anything (torp base radius is 450m, battleship is ~400m, BC is ~200m) excluding the use of crash.
Everything else you said is right, though. Bombers hoping to solo BS generally need an active tank because they have no reliable way to kill drones.
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United States44055 Posts
They changed that, rigors work now. So does GMP.
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Shit, rigors and GMP. That is a proper buff.
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United States44055 Posts
Yep, one of the reasons the RLM caracal is so good.
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Kwark where is your reddit/r/eve post announcing your candidacy
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United States44055 Posts
I don't have a reddit account. Also several of my campaign managers (who have sprung up from nowhere to micromanage my shit without invitation) have advised a complete overhaul of my campaign so I won't be doing that until I have shit straightened out.
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On March 14 2013 04:46 KwarK wrote:
campaign managers
What
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On March 14 2013 05:15 Body_Shield wrote:What
Basically he wrote a wall of text about abusing FW, that somehow has something to do with running for CSM, and people told him it was a wall of text. Kwark isn't appreciative of that apparently.
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United States44055 Posts
On March 14 2013 05:53 Shootemup. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 05:15 Body_Shield wrote:On March 14 2013 04:46 KwarK wrote:
campaign managers What Basically he wrote a wall of text about abusing FW, that somehow has something to do with running for CSM, and people told him it was a wall of text. Kwark isn't appreciative of that apparently.
Er no, I've been getting people complaining about my forum post and telling me how they want me to become their candidate for days now. That wall of text was written in response to them. You're a baddie.
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On March 14 2013 06:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 05:53 Shootemup. wrote:On March 14 2013 05:15 Body_Shield wrote:On March 14 2013 04:46 KwarK wrote:
campaign managers What Basically he wrote a wall of text about abusing FW, that somehow has something to do with running for CSM, and people told him it was a wall of text. Kwark isn't appreciative of that apparently. Er no, I've been getting people complaining about my forum post and telling me how they want me to become their candidate for days now. That wall of text was written in response to them. You're a baddie.
I figured you were talking about the post you made in 54 about the FW stuff, nevermind then.
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On March 14 2013 04:28 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 19:56 Ramiel wrote:
that fit... makes me so sad. Why are you using t2 launchers?
Why is there a bay loading accelerator?
Since it looks like your prey is mostly tier 3 stuff with AB's you can get the exact same damage application (about 150 / 160 dps) With a bomber using arbalest torps, T2 rigor, and 2 bcs.
Except (unless they changed something) rigors don't work on torps. One of the reason torps are fucking terrible on anything except bombers. They require target painters to apply full DPS to just about anything (torp base radius is 450m, battleship is ~400m, BC is ~200m) excluding the use of crash. Everything else you said is right, though. Bombers hoping to solo BS generally need an active tank because they have no reliable way to kill drones.
They did actually change that. All unguided missiles are now affected by rigors, guided missile prec, etc
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United States44055 Posts
Greedygoblin self destructed a chimera to disprove PvP once and for all.
There are no words.
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Doesn't disprove anything, the only real pvp is titan self-destruct chicken.
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On March 14 2013 04:28 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 19:56 Ramiel wrote:
that fit... makes me so sad. Why are you using t2 launchers?
Why is there a bay loading accelerator?
Since it looks like your prey is mostly tier 3 stuff with AB's you can get the exact same damage application (about 150 / 160 dps) With a bomber using arbalest torps, T2 rigor, and 2 bcs.
Except (unless they changed something) rigors don't work on torps. One of the reason torps are fucking terrible on anything except bombers. They require target painters to apply full DPS to just about anything (torp base radius is 450m, battleship is ~400m, BC is ~200m) excluding the use of crash. Everything else you said is right, though. Bombers hoping to solo BS generally need an active tank because they have no reliable way to kill drones.
Playing around with it a bit: With double T2 rigors, Strong Crash, All 5s, and 3% Explosion Radius Implant you can get faction torps under 150 explosion radius.
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Updated my pyfa.
Typhoons and TFI still suck.
Disappointed.
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Hyrule19220 Posts
neither has been fixed yet.
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Where are people getting that I somehow think a PvP bomber should have an AB? I don't recall saying this... MWD all the way, unless its a 10mn ab.... But in order to make the 10mn work, you really want links- which I don't think are on the table.
As for fits and what not.
I never use T2 torps for the following reasoning: While they do provide an increase in ROF when using faction torps, the fitting they require forces you to gimp your fit so badly, that the marginal increase in DPS is not worth the loss of survivability you pay.
So on to fitting ideas:
The problem with bombers, is that they have a hard time attacking anything they are not specifically designed to fight. Now if you reduced your target selection to tier 3 ships, then you take out the two biggest threats to bombers when fighting pve ships. Those two things are drones and heavy neuts.
A bomber that is fighting tier 3 (and non combat ships) exclusively can afford to drop a midslot tank item for a target painter (provided you can keep transversal vs npcs)
Killing PvE battleships is an entirely different, as they can pack the heavy neuts and warriors bombers fear.
So in order to cope with the following you have a number of strategies at your disposal.
Flying with links solves both the problems of the heavy neut and the light drones.
Flying with snakes and a faction point does the same.
But since you are in nul, and will most likely get bubbled (and because you want to do true 'solo' pvping pve boats) Then you are trying to find a hull that will solve both problems within reasonable cost.
Purifier and Hound are the two best bombers. Because choosing your bomber with the pve space you are flying in is so important, they really cannot be interchangeable. But in my opinion, the hound is the superior bomber in all aspects.
So lets get some fits:
Hound
[Hound, New Setup 1]
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Gistii B-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
[empty rig slot]
AC-603
EM-703
Zor
RL-1005
Standard Crash
Last rig slot is really player preference. Get something for cap, get a bay loading for more dps, or get a poly rig (to help reduce your agility) which is abysmal in SB's but it stacks nasty with the dual nano
Speed: 2698 m/s unheated
Agility: 5s
DPS 516
Cap: 1:46 everything running
130 DPS tank vs warriors. Hobgoblins can't really catch you- so they are not as much of a threat.
This fit has the 33K heated point range that you need to keep you comfortably outside neut range. It has just enough cap to out last their tank, and is fast enough to mitigate most warrior dps, while at the same time having the Active tank to ensure you can sustain long enough DPS to crack battleships that are under NPC aggro.
Alternatively, if you want to pimp a bit- you can slap 2 BCS on this fit, and then throw a poly in the last rig slot. The only problem is your speed lowers to 2613 m/s but the real problem becomes the agility (5.4s) On the other hand, you also suddenly have 643 DPS with CN 617 DPS with RF / Dominion. The fit shown below can have CN for the super pimp, or RF / Dominion (to save isk) BCS. Either way this bomber with 2 BCS is applying more damage to anything other than a BS when compared to that T2 torp launcher purifier you had posted earlier, while at the same time having way better sustain.
Keep in mind, that you can knock quite a bit of pimp off if you are willing to throw in genos or something.
[Hound, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Coreli C-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Nova Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Now that the two more viable hound fits are out of the way, lets move on to the purifier- which i feel is best when fit with an Armor rep
Purifier
[Purifier, New Setup 2]
Corpii A-Type Small Armor Repairer
Domination Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Coreli C-Type 1MN Microwarpdrive
Dark Blood Warp Disruptor
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 200
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing II
AC-603
EM-703
Zor
RL-1005
DPS: 617
Speed: 2216
Agility: 6.7 (Ouch)
Cap: 5min everything running
Its nice to note that the purifier has an amazing cap, and with a small cap booster (careful timing needed) you can even survive under heavy neut pressure. I am not sure if the 2 BCS purifier is really viable. Its just really slow, and has the agility of a whale. That is why I much prefer having a nano in place of the faction BCS. When you do that stats are as follows:
Speed: 2405
Agility: (5.7) Slightly more manageable
However you can add something to your fit that makes up for the loss of DPS- a bomb launcher. Now you might be scratching your head- how the hell do you fit a bomb launcher on that fit? The answer- is offline mods and using the cap booster trick.
This is kind of complex so read this carefully before you call me a stupid.
With your armor rep off-lined the single BCS purifier with nano can fit a bomb launcher and have it on-lined. Here is how you use it:
1. Get a bombing solution on the target ie. 30K away from target.
2. Approach target, once bomb explosion radius lines up with target de-cloak
3. Lock target
4. OH Torp launchers and fire your first volley of torps.
5. The second you see your torps leave the tube, launch the bomb.
6. Once you bomb launcher stops cycling or flashing Immediately offline the module.
7. Hit your cap booster- your cap will spring up past the magical 95% for a few seconds
8. Online your armor rep IMMEDIATELY AFTER CAP INJECTION, activate your point.
If you have done this correctly, you have launched a torp volley which will impact a bit before the bomb goes off. Ideally, your next torp volley is just outside bomb explosion radius and your torps are not destroyed. What you will have is an initial 4K alpha, with 516 DPS following the initial volley.
Now the hound is special, in that you can have a 2 BCS + bomb launcher trick hound. The only problem is that you have to drop the MASB for it to work. But if you are fighting things that don't have light drones- that fit is the maximum effective DPS you can fit on a bomber for solo work. Just keep in mind that you are 100% untanked. But your initial alpha is 4.4K and the torp volley landing just after bomb explosion puts you close to 5K alpha vs BS ships. 615 DPS sustained after that.
The purifier has some great T2 amarr armor resists, and puts out 56 DPS worth of tank when fighting warriors. Purifier has a harder time mitigating damage thanks to its much slower agility and overall speed. Either way DPS and application is identical to the 1 BCS hound.
So there you have it. Those 4 fits on two bombers will out damage your T2 torp version on anything that is not a BS. When comparing these fits to yours when fighting BS, all 4 fits can handle the two biggest threats when confronting a PvE BS. The Heavy neut (have at all times your long point heated 33K range un-linked) And both can handle warrior pressure for a sustained time, because of their tank and capacitor. The idea is to last long enough to crack the battle ship, not outright tank its drones, or kill them. This is the most effective way.
But Chessur! What about the MSE! Its so good!
Your right, its not bad- but i don't like it for the following reasons:
On the Hound:
SB's have shit speed and agility for a frig. I don't want to make the speed / drone tracking problem worse by expanding my signature even more.
MSAB Tanks warrior's just as well, and doesn't add to sig. If your flying your hound right, you don't need the buffer- ever. Because BS guns should never be able to track you, and if you are fighting any medium sized gun ship inside point range in a bomber- your an idiot.
Lastly, When fighting cruise ravens the reduction in sig is huge. Because then you also have to tack on more DPS on top of a flight of light drones. While I realize that a cruise raven is going to be hitting you for shit, when your dealing with a bomber- those things add up when you are trying to break a BS tank.
Purifier
Is not a shield ship. While it does have superior cap to the hound, fitting shields on a purifier is a waste. You need to armor tank it, in order to get even get close to the utility level of the hound. Again the other arguments about signature stand: Bombers are slow and un-agile for frigs. This hurts them greatly, and the more you can reduce this problem the better.
But Chessur BOMBS!!!
Great for fleets, and ok for the occasional solo use. Its always better to have 2 BCS over a bomb launcher when solo.
Hound can't fit bomb launchers, as you can't use the cap booster trick like you can on the purifier- unless you go un-tanked. Which is ok- but if you see light drones you have to GTFO ASAP which might cut down on your target selection
Hope you liked it.
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^Great post. I hadn't ever thought of/heard of anyone doing the offline/online launcher trick.
While the man might be a bit overly obsessed with his caracals, his nano nightmares, etc, he definitely at least knows his bombers.
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On March 14 2013 09:17 JJoNeEightY wrote:
^Great post. I hadn't ever thought of/heard of anyone doing the offline/online launcher trick.
While the man might be a bit overly obsessed with his caracals, his nano nightmares, etc, he definitely at least knows his bombers.
Hell ya! Cap booster all day- and the 10MN AB bomber, Pirolat stole that from me and all of the credit. So sad. On the other hand, i didn't have links or snakes at the time :D
nor was i posting bitching low sec pvp vs pirates
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EPT
