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On March 12 2013 11:10 Ramiel wrote:
Tracking:
Nado with Barrage: 0.04435
Oracle with Scorch: 0.03751
Nado with RF EMP: 0.05913
Oracle with IN Multi: 0.05001
Damage:
Nado with Barrage: 20K 30K 40K 50K 60K 70K
________________784 747 689 633 560 486
Oracle with Scorch:836 836 836 836 836 836
Nado With EMP: 10K 20K 30K 40K 50K
______________991 923 815 686 538
Oracle with Mult:10481048 913 438 137
Hope you can understand that.
I haven't updated my pyfa in almost a year, KwarK. The things you are asking have too many variables to display to be both comprehensive and simple.
But there's a very simple thing you can do to draw comparisons like the ones you are asking about that will give you an intuitive understanding - which is better in some ways than referring to a set of graphs.
Let's take these numbers from Chessur and assume they are correct.
If you'll refer to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224574 where I explain in depth how tracking and damage work, you'll find the very simple equations:
C = .5^k
k = (T*S)^2 + R^2
Let's just say that R = 0 and S = 1 to simplify what we're doing here. We're going to normalize the tracking numbers so that the best T is 1.
Barrage*x = Scorch
x = Scorch/Barrage = .84577
We'll call Barrage 100% and Scorch 85%.
How does C change between these two in this case?
C_b = .5^(1) = .5
C_s = .5^k_s
k_s = (1/.85)^2 = 1.384
so
C_s = .5^(1.384) = .383
Now look a bit further down on that page to find where I talk about tracking and damage. Let's take those C's and turn them into something that looks more like damage.
C_b^2 + C_b + .0499 = .7999
C_s^2 + C_s + .0499 = .5796
Normalize again and we have Barrage at 100% and Scorch at 72%. What this means is that in situations where tracking matters (i.e. in situations where you are expecting to hit and miss at the same rate or worse), that the Oracle with Scorch is going to be at 72% effectiveness compared to Barrage. So take whatever range you're worried about, look up the graph in pyfa and multiply the damage by 72%. Big surprise, the Nado wins out in low-accuracy situations up to 50km and then starts losing because its damage falloff starts to dominate.
You can repeat exactly the same steps for comparisons between any two weapon systems (assuming they have close to the same signature) using the same logic to get an understanding of the differences.
We all know Oracles are better than other ships, though.
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Nado doesn't have 1K either :D :D :D
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Can you re-post for us plebes?
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United States41961 Posts
And all numbers under 1k, be it 300 or 950, are equal.
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So heres the Euni vs Molden Heath backstory. A long time ago Uni decided to move its LowSec Camp to heild. They ended up basing out of the same station as the Black Rebil Rifter pirates, causing them to take a vacation to avoid the 30 or so people that would undock with them and keep them from really doing much. Uni proceeded to camp the Heild/Bosena gate with upwards of 20 people, atleast a quarter of which were in ecm ships, gaurenteeing that anyone with negative sec status would be permajammed and unable to actually fight back.
The MH pirate comunity got tired of this and war decd Uni in order to bypass gateguns and station guns. With the pirates able to actually fly smaller ships and shoot at Uni without gateguns shooting back, the field was evened up a bit. As a response, one of Unis forum alts decided to post a thread about it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122142
Things quickly escalated as Ueberlisk, King of the South and Lord of Oddelulf, called down TL to put a stop to Unis gatecamps and return MH to the small gang and solo haven that it was. It only took 2 days from when the TL/Uni war went live and about 30 Uni were being camped into a station by a rifter and a caracal. Uni enforced a policy of not undocking unless as part of a fleet under a veteran fc and eventually just not undocking period.
Eventually, Uni CEO attempts to negotiate a surrender, but refuses our completely reasonable demands of a public apology and instead basically lists off demands of his own including blueing eachother and doing prearranged fights and such. Needless to say these negotiations didnt end well at all and eventually Uni was forced to move their lowsec camp to backwater aridia thus leaving MH to continue as a small gang pirate haven. Ueberlisk kept the wardec on for a couple months because why not but eventually he let that drop.
Unis new lowsec camp in aridia went well until the locals finally got tired of Unis blobbing and decided to constantly drop machariel gangs on them until they moved back to dudreda (where they were before they came to MH) and Unis Lowsec Camp continues to remain there as of the time of this post.
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On March 12 2013 00:55 Ueberlisk wrote:Better war dec just to be sure? + Show Spoiler +Molden Heath
From: Frood Frooster
Sent: 2013.03.11 12:52
To: Ueberlisk,
Hey Ueberlisk,
a small group of Eve Uni students think about going to Great Wildlands more and think about staging out of Egbinger and maybe fly around MH while doing so.
I am not yet sure how many people will actually go there but you might see some more Eve Uni traffic in MH.
I wanted to talk to you first before Eve Uni is dragged into a months long war at the cost of all other members when it is just a few people who actually want to go and live in MH.
If you have a problem with us going into MH again, I would prefer you to talk to me first before we have such a long war again (though we learnt quite a lot from you guys).
Yours Frood Frooster
Director Eve Uni
LOLLLLLLL
Uni enforced a policy of not undocking unless as part of a fleet under a veteran fc and eventually just not undocking period.
Very good summary but I'd also like to add they were not allowed to undock unless they had ECM support. 
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United States41961 Posts
Mandy, can you PM me regarding potential for me to use info links.
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=214283
Hello again! As those of you who have been following the ingame news and events concerning the four empires will know, this is a time of great upheaval in New Eden. All four empires are going through changes and jockeying for relative advantage in a cluster now filled with new immortal soldiers. In response to these new challenges, all four empires have secretly begun modernizing and updating their navy forces to face the threats of the future and better reward their most loyal capsuleers.
In practical terms this means that I am announcing some tweaks to our four faction navy frigates scheduled for the Summer expansion. As usual, we're looking for your participation in the process of polishing and iterating on these changes.
Biggest changes are for the Firetail which is gaining a bigger damage bonus, significant HP upgrades and better fitting.
The Slicer and Comet are getting light upgrades.
The Hookbill is a bit more of a mixed bag, gaining HP but gaining a small but noticeable amount of mass to slow it down
Cap and fitting buff to slicer, EHP buff for everyone.
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Sup guys, I'm 2 days into a 14 day trial account and wanted to join shield batter, but I hear y'all are going inactive? If so, anyone willing to mentor a new EVE player?
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On March 13 2013 01:37 kollin wrote:
SB is inactive now?
Dota 2 OP
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On March 12 2013 12:45 Viceorvirtue wrote:
Things quickly escalated as Ueberlisk, King of the South and Lord of Oddelulf, called down TL to put a stop to Unis gatecamps and return MH to the small gang and solo haven that it was. It only took 2 days from when the TL/Uni war went live and about 30 Uni were being camped into a station by a rifter and a caracal. Uni enforced a policy of not undocking unless as part of a fleet under a veteran fc and eventually just not undocking period.
You give them too much credit. There was a lot of time where me sitting on the undock in just a rifter (nobody else on grid, or often even in system) would keep them docked up.....
It was really annoying, cause I shipped like 50 or so for me to lose vs them in some epic fights.
I lost just a few to EUNI, then I lost the rest in random fights vs the locals.
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Cut them some slack...
It was me sitting out there. Chessur strikes fear into all the second i drop out of warp, and hit grid. And if I am flying my flagship Caracal Navy Issue, hookers know better than to fight.
If you ask me, it was the right decision.
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On March 13 2013 12:07 Ramiel wrote:
Cut them some slack...
It was me sitting out there. Chessur strikes fear into all the second i drop out of warp, and hit grid. And if I am flying my flagship Caracal Navy Issue, hookers know better than to fight.
If you ask me, it was the right decision.
Whatever you say Chessur
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United States41961 Posts
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that fit... makes me so sad. Why are you using t2 launchers?
Why is there a bay loading accelerator?
Since it looks like your prey is mostly tier 3 stuff with AB's you can get the exact same damage application (about 150 / 160 dps) With a bomber using arbalest torps, T2 rigor, and 2 bcs. This leaves more fitting room, allowing you to actually fit a point that will keep you out of heavy neut range of those pimped battle ships. It also will allow you to fit MASB which is a great tanking item for the hound, or in the purifiers case, you could think about a small armor rep. Either way that fit will get eaten alive by drones, or heavy neuts and you have no counter to either. Going for max damage application is nice, but being able to have more sustainability on the field, to apply more damage before being run off- is also pretty great.
Your too slow to try and mitigate at least some drone tracking, and you don't have any way to deal with heavy neuts. What say you? Also crash.... bombers need crash. Because strong crash is giving you close to 70 / 80 more DPS against AB teir 3 ships.
But all that aside, nice kills! Anyway you could use a hound? Its superior to the purifier in almost every way.
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no don't use a hound in deklein / fountain, purifier is by far the best bet there. hound in delve / period basis though. hounds fitting is also significantly worse than purifier
i agree t2 torp launchers arent worth it, but i disagree about the mwd. mwd lets you travel almost 100% safe through null, whereas ab is a little more risky. ab is certainly better once you're in the fight, (due to rat agro mostly, target doesn't really track you either way and it makes almost no difference for their light drones) but imo its not worth the trade of since once you point your target they are dead in 3-4 volleys assuming you're hitting their resist hole (EM for the shield tanked in fountain/dek, Explosive for the armor tanked in delve/pb. picking your targets is a pretty essential part of hunting ratters in a sb)
the main thing you are missing is a t2 point, it's really invaluable to be able to point that extra 4.8k. t2ing the mse is also a surprisingly large increase in ehp
also get some crash
you can also consider using a bomb with torps. it takes a little bit more practice (mostly around not getting your first volley blown up by the bomb) but it kills ratters dead without the need to stick around for very long at all. main problem with it is usually ab instead of mwd and the fact that you only get 4 bombs before you're out. here's an example if you're interested
+ Show Spoiler +
it's from before rat ai changes but you get the idea
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On March 13 2013 19:56 Ramiel wrote:
that fit... makes me so sad. Why are you using t2 launchers?
Why is there a bay loading accelerator?
Since it looks like your prey is mostly tier 3 stuff with AB's you can get the exact same damage application (about 150 / 160 dps) With a bomber using arbalest torps, T2 rigor, and 2 bcs. This leaves more fitting room, allowing you to actually fit a point that will keep you out of heavy neut range of those pimped battle ships. It also will allow you to fit MASB which is a great tanking item for the hound, or in the purifiers case, you could think about a small armor rep. Either way that fit will get eaten alive by drones, or heavy neuts and you have no counter to either. Going for max damage application is nice, but being able to have more sustainability on the field, to apply more damage before being run off- is also pretty great.
Your too slow to try and mitigate at least some drone tracking, and you don't have any way to deal with heavy neuts. What say you? Also crash.... bombers need crash. Because strong crash is giving you close to 70 / 80 more DPS against AB teir 3 ships.
But all that aside, nice kills! Anyway you could use a hound? Its superior to the purifier in almost every way.
I am using crash, just forgot to plop it on.
My rationale was basically my primary targets are going to be battleships ratting in anomalies. As such, double rigor doesn't do quite as much for me as T2ing the launchers (decent ROF increase over Arb) and taking advantage of the higher ROF by using bay loaders over other options.
I am killing T3s because they are easy and I've been able to catch them. Since I am shooting such a massive, massive resistance hole in these ships they really don't have much of a chance barring a lucky wrecking blow.
I can fly all bombers (perfect missile skills in about 2 weeks) and this has been damn fun so far, so I may try Delve next. I like the idea of double rigor ii and arbalests with strong crash, as it would likely make tengus a possible target (since again, we are shooting massive resistance holes). How would you fit your hound?
Edit: keeping in mind that the MWD is absolutely needed for blindly jumping around null (at least I think so), and I don't mind slightly pimping the ships (DG point, coreli MWD, lower faction stuff in general)
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EPT
