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On March 07 2013 13:08 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 13:46 Omigawa wrote:
As a serious question from a bad player, what is wrong with the Adaptive Invulnerability Field II on the Cynabal? A Cynabal has a few simple points that make up its strength as a ship. It is really fucking fast. It has better damage projection at range than similar ships. It has a utility high slot. It has a shitload of power grid. ... Basically it comes down to this. Your capacitor is your one weakness on this ship. All the other stats are inflated to make it OP. If you have MWD + point, there is no juggling. You can MWD permanently by cutting it off for ~1 second every few cycles. If you have MWD + point + Invuln, it's not only going to be a distraction, but you'll have to make decisions about the priority of staying alive vs. pointing the target. Whenever your cap runs out forcing you to exit a fight or die, there is another you in another universe happily trucking along with plenty of cap because they fit their ship better. Are there situations where the tiny extra EHP will save you? Yes. But there will be 100x more situations where you would have died or left because you lost your cap. Total EHP or even DPS rep on a kiting ship is a fairly meaningless stat when it comes down to small differences.
Thanks for the reply. Speaking of kiting ships, what makes a ship considered a "kiting" ship to begin with?
For example, a HAM Caracal w/ Scourge Rage has a range of 25km, and your point has 24km range... since your missile range is farther than your point, would that be considered a kiting ship? The reason I ask is because most Caracal fits have an MWD, but with my fitting skills it's really tight even with implants, and cap is like... 6m with a small booster.
In a situation like that, where you would (I assume?) attempt to stay 20+km out, would it be better to drop the MWD in favor of an AB? Here are two example fits for comparison:
+ Show Spoiler [cara fits] +[Caracal, HAM II]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[Caracal, HAM II ab]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
I forget where I found the first fit.
They're both pretty tight as far as fitting in concerned. Personally, once I have AWU III trained, I will need to use a 2% Engineering implant to fit the MWD fit, and for the AB fit I'll need a 2% Electronics & Engineering implant. Both of those fits are probably shit fits, it's some I EFT'd after looking at HAM fits on BC I think. What I like about the AB fit is 47% cap stable + way more EHP, and my feeling is that if you're staying at 20+km you don't always have to have an MWD (I see Chessur killmails where he doesn't even have a prop mod..)
But, comparing the two, if your intention is to use it as a "kiting" ship, what are the pros/cons of each? And is a HAM Cara even considered a "kiting" ship?
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In most cases (excluding the obvious ones), you can't tell if a ship is dedicated to kitting or not, because it really depends of your opponents. For example, if you look at the cynabal, you will kite a lot of ennemies, but sometimes you are against something with enough range to avoid being kitted (more range than your point), and it can be interesting to close in on it in that case, to use their tracking against them more efficiently.
But when you want to kite, a mwd is really needed, since if you play with an AB, any MWD ship will go faster, catch you and web you. Then you just die horribly. ABs are fine when you use a scramble and intent on disabling your opponent's MWD anyway.
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Oh my where to start.
Being good at kiting is about range control and damage projection. Range control means speed and maneuverability. Damage projection means dealing good damage at long range. The fundamental idea is that a kiting ship uses its range control to stay out of enemy threat range while using its damage projection to exert threat on its enemies.
Point range is rarely 24km, go ahead and do away with that notion. With links (unless things have changed drastically, which they possibly could have) unheated point range is about 38km and heated point range is something around 45km. Since anyone you're fighting is potentially using links, you should remember these numbers at all times.
The Caracal you're talking about (although I think it has been changed since I last played) scores poorly at both range control and damage projection. Caldari ships tend to be "average" speed and that's only because some ships are armor fit and are thus artificially slow. HAMs have absolutely terrible damage projection. If you're flying away from something that is chasing you, missiles have "longer" range in that your target is rocketing towards them. However if you're flying away from something that is chasing you, even long-range missiles have pretty poor range if we're talking about MWD cruiser speeds.
As far as specific fits, I'm not up to date on the newest changes to ships so someone else will have to help you. But those are some general thoughts that should apply to your considerations.
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Lalalaland34493 Posts
Def is right about everything except the Caracal. Someone call Chessur to the thread.
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All you have to do is say that SC2:WoL is the superior game in the Starcraft series and he will come.
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On March 08 2013 17:16 Mandini wrote:
All you have to do is say that SC2:WoL is the superior game in the Starcraft series and he will come.
Well it is
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Do you know this guy? Ask for the match id so we can confirm, until that i call fake 
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caracals are actually pretty good kiting ships these days
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On March 08 2013 21:11 Warri wrote:Do you know this guy? Ask for the match id so we can confirm, until that i call fake
Match ID was on screenshot.
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United States42973 Posts
On March 08 2013 14:12 Omigawa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2013 13:08 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 06 2013 13:46 Omigawa wrote:
As a serious question from a bad player, what is wrong with the Adaptive Invulnerability Field II on the Cynabal? A Cynabal has a few simple points that make up its strength as a ship. It is really fucking fast. It has better damage projection at range than similar ships. It has a utility high slot. It has a shitload of power grid. ... Basically it comes down to this. Your capacitor is your one weakness on this ship. All the other stats are inflated to make it OP. If you have MWD + point, there is no juggling. You can MWD permanently by cutting it off for ~1 second every few cycles. If you have MWD + point + Invuln, it's not only going to be a distraction, but you'll have to make decisions about the priority of staying alive vs. pointing the target. Whenever your cap runs out forcing you to exit a fight or die, there is another you in another universe happily trucking along with plenty of cap because they fit their ship better. Are there situations where the tiny extra EHP will save you? Yes. But there will be 100x more situations where you would have died or left because you lost your cap. Total EHP or even DPS rep on a kiting ship is a fairly meaningless stat when it comes down to small differences. Thanks for the reply. Speaking of kiting ships, what makes a ship considered a "kiting" ship to begin with? For example, a HAM Caracal w/ Scourge Rage has a range of 25km, and your point has 24km range... since your missile range is farther than your point, would that be considered a kiting ship? The reason I ask is because most Caracal fits have an MWD, but with my fitting skills it's really tight even with implants, and cap is like... 6m with a small booster. In a situation like that, where you would (I assume?) attempt to stay 20+km out, would it be better to drop the MWD in favor of an AB? Here are two example fits for comparison: + Show Spoiler [cara fits] +[Caracal, HAM II]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 150
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[Caracal, HAM II ab]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I I forget where I found the first fit. They're both pretty tight as far as fitting in concerned. Personally, once I have AWU III trained, I will need to use a 2% Engineering implant to fit the MWD fit, and for the AB fit I'll need a 2% Electronics & Engineering implant. Both of those fits are probably shit fits, it's some I EFT'd after looking at HAM fits on BC I think. What I like about the AB fit is 47% cap stable + way more EHP, and my feeling is that if you're staying at 20+km you don't always have to have an MWD (I see Chessur killmails where he doesn't even have a prop mod..) But, comparing the two, if your intention is to use it as a "kiting" ship, what are the pros/cons of each? And is a HAM Cara even considered a "kiting" ship?
Okay, where to begin. HAMs don't do any damage, fuck HAMs. There's more to dps than the number it'll do to a structure with perfect tracking, you need to do complex maths and make graphs against probably targets and shit.
Secondly, kiting (and tbh most eve pvp) is about range control so voluntarily giving up the ability to go fast by not fitting a mwd is always fucking retarded. You cannot AB kite except in very rare situations in which you can reduce their effect range to below your scram range and then fly around with your AB while being tackled by them and still taking no damage. Oddly enough our first AT setup was based around that exact concept with sentinels reducing them to 2k range while we kited with AB oracles at 5k. But you're not us and that was a special situation and you're not smart enough to identify those, fit a mwd.
Thirdly, you accidentally put two disruptors on your AB caracal. I don't know what you think a disruptor does but I don't think it does that. What you have is a ship with no mwd that has no way of slowing down a ship that does have a mwd. This means that your fitting is vulnerable to the tactic known as "flying away from you" which can be used to increase the distance between your ship and theirs until you can no longer kill them. The disruptor is a kiting tool which relies upon speed advantages which you have chosen not to have, without the mwd it doesn't do anything. Putting a second disruptor on doesn't change that. Oddly enough a scram would kinda work. Scrams are sometimes called two points, because of their warp disruption strength, maybe that is what confused you when you decided to just put two longpoints on your ship. Or maybe you need special help getting yourself dressed.
The correct way to fit a caracal in every situation is this
+ Show Spoiler +[Caracal, SoloSCB]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Warrior II x2
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Navigation NN-603
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Evasive Maneuvering EM-703
Zor's Custom Navigation Hyper-Link
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1003
Fly with siege/skirmish links and synth mindflood and crash.
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The amount of eve players that love to reference the fact that a ship is x% cap stable as a selling point never ceases to amaze me.
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United States42973 Posts
Good capacitor management in the execution has always been inferior to removing the need for it in the planning, no matter the cost in other areas.
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my bet is on killboards are still not able to figure out what is in the hangar and what is fitted.
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Hyrule19087 Posts
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On March 09 2013 06:50 tofucake wrote:
Exhale fail cascaded
One of Exhale's two main wormholes declared independence from the other.
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On March 09 2013 06:50 tofucake wrote:
Exhale fail cascaded
who?
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
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EPT
