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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
On February 14 2009 22:53 pachi wrote: From my manhandling of Saya at Gem Fighter, i think he would agree how skill based it is. see me in another game run that shit back pachi | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On February 15 2009 00:12 myrmidon2537 wrote: Out of curiosity (since I follow Tekken from a casual-competitive standpoint) who's owning it up at T6 these days? In short: are qudans, Nin, Knee etc etc still alive? =O EDIT: Just to follow-up. Yeah, wong said his reaction time was faster than nuki's (Said it in a gootecks podcast I believe, about how he can see nuki whiff something, s.fierce I think... not really sure, and punish) As far as I can tell, Qudans is gone and replaced by his apprentice, aka 2nd Qudans lol. Nin is still chugging along, he was in a team for SBO quals last year (forget how well he did, lol). Knee is in the military, sad. But MDJ is back from the military and more or less back in form, so that's something. Holeman, Help Me!, Rain, Soyongdori, etc. still around, still owning it up. Forget what happened to Leedy, maybe he's still around? In Japan, 2nd Mainstreet Ryu, Takeyama, Taizo are still around IIRC... think I've seen some T6 matches with Shou in 'em as well. Nidaime MS Ryu is so sick lol. The top Japanese have more or less caught up with Korea by... more or less playing more like the Koreans. Movement, spacing, execution is all up there... execution might even be better? | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On February 14 2009 07:31 CharlieMurphy wrote: Wait are you saying 3s is worse ? Just the fact that any character can parry and block equally is almost balance enough that the low tier characters in a skilled players hands doesn't even matter. Of course anyone coming to a tourney is going to pick the top tier guys just because they win money. I'm sure many of them are very solid with low/mid tier characters they just don't want to risk it. Look at Kuroda for example, he plays Q and Sean and Akuma. The universal systems in 3s are really what makes it imbalanced. If u took out parrying things are "balanced" on paper. But look at Chun for instance: She has no real anti air, optimally everyone should be able to jump in on her. But parrying lets her just parry a jumpin and counter hit, she is so fast she can just walk up for throw/c.mk as you hit the ground. You end up actually jumping at chun li with a parry and trying to hit her on the ground, but she has so much frame advantage on all her moves that u cant really do anything. I'm oversimplifying the situation but parrying essentially limits the tools of a lot of the cast. I play Oro as u know.. So look at what his options are at farthest poke range vs the shotos(Which is just at the edge/outside of low forward and i think same range as c.roundhouse). Ken can simply stick out low forward and wait for it to hit, I have 3 options - try to get close, this is tough because once I get within range of his low forward I have no moves that have frame advantage until I get close enough to use the knee(close s.mk), I believe my own c.mk won't beat c.roundhouse because it hits really quick, just happens to have a lot of recovery. So at furthest range I can throw out s.mp, s.mk or s.hp. s.hp is extremely slow, if they do anything but low poke it leaves me very open so its in the realm of "random occasional counter to low pokes." s.mk has the most range and comes out about as fast as shoto c.mk. Generally it beats it out at the right range, hard to measure exactly though but its a bread and butter poke. s.mp comes out faster and is slightly shorter range I think(Maybe the same) so if im a bit inside the opponents range I can use it to beat their move if I hit a button first. Useful after things that have frame advantage.... OR WOULD BE All this shit is moot because I literally cant do anything vs a very good Ken in the poke game. They know that at that range all I can do is stick out standing moves, move in closer or jump. I end up having to throw fireballs from outside their range and charging meter until I can EX palm to create a situation where I can get very close. But if I actually am pressured and have to stick out a poke, they always know the attack will be high. I can try to counter hit things from well outside of their range and thats useful occasionally but since I can't do a super off my c.mk I am at a disadvantage in that realm. instead I have to wait for them to make moves and capitalize. Its totally fine with me in a casual sense and I beat some of the best Kens Ive played at least a few games out of a set. Maybe I'm just not thinking out all the scenarios and I'm far from amazing at 3rd strike, but as a game of execution.. Any gameplan I have leaves me far more open than their ability to parry or counter poke into super. Ken never really has to jump if he doesnt want to. Akuma and Ryu are a little different because they don't have all the tools Ken has but generally I consider vs Shotos a difficult matchup for Oro and Chun Li is VERY difficult. To sum it up a little better without all the anecdotal shit: Some characters can capitalize on parries a lot more than others. So yeah, 3s is hurt for me because some characters have inherent advantages via the systems available. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On February 14 2009 15:50 Metal[x] wrote: im going to start playing SF4 at the arcade around me...lol! who is better ryu or ken? Ryu but Ken has a little bit more randomness with his EX hurricanes and insane kara throw range | ||
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myrmidon2537
Philippines2188 Posts
Tiers and all that... 3s is still more of a the metagame than tiering.. I mean... look at Kuroda, as compared to Marvel which, although it does have a good metagame, is a little bit more reliant on tiering. Sure VDO and Wong can own everything up with their crazy low-tiers, but when the money is down, Wong will slide back to Matrix while VDO (well.. he remains the same..) Of course the ideal situation is a good metagame with balanced characters... but basically the closest thing you can get with that is a fighting game with only 1 character.. mirror mode. Unless its that one MK game (Deception I think?) that had 1P/2P imbalance (wtf) | ||
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
On February 16 2009 10:51 myrmidon2537 wrote: Well... in most games, some characters really can capitalize more on the system. Tiers and all that... 3s is still more of a the metagame than tiering.. I mean... look at Kuroda, as compared to Marvel which, although it does have a good metagame, is a little bit more reliant on tiering. Sure VDO and Wong can own everything up with their crazy low-tiers, but when the money is down, Wong will slide back to Matrix while VDO (well.. he remains the same..) Of course the ideal situation is a good metagame with balanced characters... but basically the closest thing you can get with that is a fighting game with only 1 character.. mirror mode. Unless its that one MK game (Deception I think?) that had 1P/2P imbalance (wtf) wait wht team does VDO use and wht is team Matrix? storm/sent/cykes? i dont know or follow Marvel team/players that much other than i know wht santrax and msp is | ||
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myrmidon2537
Philippines2188 Posts
You got Matrix right. IIRC it used to be called omnipresent/HolyTrinity but they settled for matrix. Cyclops being Neo etc etc | ||
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TaP.Nuada
United States428 Posts
Melee is 10x harder to be good at than Brawl. Brawl was dumbed down for the newbies and a lot of advanced techniques were removed from the game. I would vote for Super Smash Brother's Melee, but not Brawl. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On February 14 2009 06:04 red.venom wrote: The balance actually does make 3s a worse game. No one likes watching Chun Li ever. If you play mid/low tier you won't like playing against her(Or a decent Yun). Its the garbage aspect of a nearly perfect game really. I have to giggle a little that you are shitting on Tekken yet calling the combo system in Smash unparalleled. Hrm. I wont pretend I know shit about Smash brothers but I would be interested in hearing how the combo system in that game has depth. It is typical smash player fanboy-ism. The fact that he thinks SSBM balance is like 3s leads me to suspect he's never touched 3s in his life. Try playing a Mewtwo versus Marth, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Meanwhile if you take the bottem tier of 3s against Chun, Ken, Yun, you can at least play your game without feeling like you're amputated the whole time. Not to mention as the quote states here, poor balance is a strike /against/ 3s. How many blanket advanced concepts can you name in Smash? Shuffle, Wavedash, and Meteor cancel then what...? I picked up all of that in a few days. It is hardly "unparralleled". Free flowing combo system? Smash combo systems works off the /same/ dynamics as every other fighter worth it's salt. Different characters have different juggle properties (like *gasp* many other fighters), and DI isn't much different than other juggle defense systems. Smash is a good game but wow it's fanboys are the worst. BTW, mortal Kombat bashing aside, UMK3 is actually a pretty deep game. | ||
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Scooter
United States747 Posts
On February 16 2009 11:26 TaP.Nuada wrote: IMO there needs to be a distinction between Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl. Melee is 10x harder to be good at than Brawl. Brawl was dumbed down for the newbies and a lot of advanced techniques were removed from the game. I would vote for Super Smash Brother's Melee, but not Brawl. On February 15 2009 21:39 Racenilatr wrote: super smash bros defniitly just go to prove that many people blindly vote without realizing that they are failing to compare it to any other games. I'm not shitting on Smash, I loved all three installments, but its fan base is just unbelievable. Comparing the quality of posts from Smashboards and Teamliquid or Shoryuken is just the tip of the iceberg. Also Piy, I would hardly call Melee's combo system free flowing and superior to every other fighting games. Yes, it is unique but it does not make it better. The staple of combos or shffl'ed aerials are akin to Fuerte's HP loop in SFIV; abusing a system mechanic to loop simple attacks. There's all sorts of mechanics you can abuse in every fighting game to make your combos smooth and sexy like triangle jumping in MvC2. Comparing the balance in the games is impossible too. Although the gap in the tier range is higher in Melee than in 3rd Strike, the tier list is much, MUCH larger. However, I wouldn't say that the tiers in 3rd Strike or Guilty Gear or what have you are as clearly cut as it is in melee. Watching players like Kuroda argue that Akuma might be the best character and completely outplaying the best players with Q is just one example. Also stating Chun > rest being widely accepted is a bit of an overstatement, especially since many 3s tournaments are done team style, where having Yuns and Yangs to snipe chun is common. Even if it was that simple, it doesn't even seem to make that much of an impact. Look at the list of players that made it to SBO, there was a MASSIVE number of Dudley players, a character accepted to be outside of the top tier. I don't see why so many players give Smash flack, I see it as a fighting game. However it's worse when Smash players blindly believe that it is the one and only fighting game worth their time (I was like that for a while, sadly). The combo system is a lot like many fighting games. DI works a lot like teching in GG, where the longer a combo goes (or damage goes up in Smash) the combos shorten but become more dangerous. Characters like Marth and Dr. Mario play a lot like Slayer while Sheik plays like Sol (in my opinion). You could even argue that Fox plays like Lilica. Point is, there's both sides to the argument and many smash players would do well to try out some more 2D fighters before passing them off as inferior. | ||
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TaP.Nuada
United States428 Posts
On February 16 2009 12:29 Scooter wrote: Hey, give the Piy credit for at least making an legitimate argument, that's better than 4/5ths of the posts in this thread. He makes a helluvalot better point than posts like just go to prove that many people blindly vote without realizing that they are failing to compare it to any other games. I'm not shitting on Smash, I loved all three installments, but its fan base is just unbelievable. Comparing the quality of posts from Smashboards and Teamliquid or Shoryuken is just the tip of the iceberg. Also Piy, I would hardly call Melee's combo system free flowing and superior to every other fighting games. Yes, it is unique but it does not make it better. The staple of combos or shffl'ed aerials are akin to Fuerte's HP loop in SFIV; abusing a system mechanic to loop simple attacks. There's all sorts of mechanics you can abuse in every fighting game to make your combos smooth and sexy like triangle jumping in MvC2. Comparing the balance in the games is impossible too. Although the gap in the tier range is higher in Melee than in 3rd Strike, the tier list is much, MUCH larger. However, I wouldn't say that the tiers in 3rd Strike or Guilty Gear or what have you are as clearly cut as it is in melee. Watching players like Kuroda argue that Akuma might be the best character and completely outplaying the best players with Q is just one example. Also stating Chun > rest being widely accepted is a bit of an overstatement, especially since many 3s tournaments are done team style, where having Yuns and Yangs to snipe chun is common. Even if it was that simple, it doesn't even seem to make that much of an impact. Look at the list of players that made it to SBO, there was a MASSIVE number of Dudley players, a character accepted to be outside of the top tier. I don't see why so many players give Smash flack, I see it as a fighting game. However it's worse when Smash players blindly believe that it is the one and only fighting game worth their time (I was like that for a while, sadly). The combo system is a lot like many fighting games. DI works a lot like teching in GG, where the longer a combo goes (or damage goes up in Smash) the combos shorten but become more dangerous. Characters like Marth and Dr. Mario play a lot like Slayer while Sheik plays like Sol (in my opinion). You could even argue that Fox plays like Lilica. Point is, there's both sides to the argument and many smash players would do well to try out some more 2D fighters before passing them off as inferior. I like how you assume we're blindly believing smash is the #1 fighting game without comparing to any others when we give no reason for you believe this. I was simply commenting on the voting options. | ||
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Scooter
United States747 Posts
On February 16 2009 11:26 TaP.Nuada wrote: IMO there needs to be a distinction between Super Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl. Melee is 10x harder to be good at than Brawl. Brawl was dumbed down for the newbies and a lot of advanced techniques were removed from the game. I would vote for Super Smash Brother's Melee, but not Brawl. Everyone already established that ideally that the poll should be separated and you (at least the 3rd time in the thread) claimed that Melee, being superior to Brawl, would clearly be the option to vote for given the choice. However, you failed to compare it to any game other than Brawl. Street Fighter 2, 3, and 4 are far, far more different from each other than Brawl is from Melee. So what makes you think that there should be a distinction between Melee and Brawl specifically rather than every game on the list? This topic has been beaten to death already in the thread you touching on the topic again rubbed me the wrong way. I know at this point I'm being a douche but this thread really needs to be closed because it started as a flame bait topic and not much has changed. | ||
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TaP.Nuada
United States428 Posts
I have little experience with other fighter games because I was rather attracted to melee and didn't really try to play anything else at a competitive level, so I didn't really want to talk about things I wasn't at least some-what knowledgeable of. Although for me, arcade style fighters are really hard to play. I just feel awkward with the controls as it's not easy for me to find specific buttons in a flash, though this is probably from lack of experience  | ||
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Scooter
United States747 Posts
On February 16 2009 13:16 TaP.Nuada wrote: Well I apologize. My only intention was to point out that I'd prefer a separation between the two, as I think one is worthy of being an option, while the other isn't. I have little experience with other fighter games because I was rather attracted to melee and didn't really try to play anything else at a competitive level, so I didn't really want to talk about things I wasn't at least some-what knowledgeable of. Although for me, arcade style fighters are really hard to play. I just feel awkward with the controls as it's not easy for me to find specific buttons in a flash, though this is probably from lack of experience What're you apologizing for? You had a good point. I think Melee probably should've been the only option on the list, too. The amount of bull shit in Brawl is just sick. It's not even the lack of wavedash and other ATs that bugs me (though that really did tick me off early on), it's just that the game is the most unbalanced junk ever. Metaknight and the SS tier? Garbo. It's amazing that the best players still won at Evo. Buuuut, if you liked Melee there's other games you'd probably be good at too. Learning how to play Magneto in Marvel is a lot like Fox, with ROM infinites in place of wave dash and assists in place of down throw combos. You can't really say how good the games are compared to each other, but I think the Marvel community is a lot more funner and mature (in a prison gang sort of way) than the Smash guys. Then again, most of this has to do with who you can play with. | ||
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kdog3683
United States916 Posts
I'm super fanboy, i don't even bother reading posts, smash is just #1. every other game sucks. Esp brawl. Worst creation. | ||
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Scooter
United States747 Posts
On February 16 2009 13:38 kdog3683 wrote: Smashbros MELEE (not brawl or 64) ftw I'm super fanboy, i don't even bother reading posts, smash is just #1. every other game sucks. Esp brawl. Worst creation. Are you dorming? You should come over to my apartment so that we can play some games. + Show Spoiler + BRO RAPE | ||
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kdog3683
United States916 Posts
On February 16 2009 13:42 Scooter wrote: Are you dorming? You should come over to my apartment so that we can play some games. + Show Spoiler + BRO RAPE Ya I live in Haggett Call me up sometime 1-800-SMASH | ||
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pokeyAA
United States936 Posts
I do think tekken is harder to master though. I remember practicing the wavedash for the mishimas in TTT into the electric uppercut thingie was hard as hell. Lei also had his super keep away game of constant b3~4 or b~43 (i forget which), which i thought was funny. edit: I LOVED it when noobs did the 10-strings in tekken. Its funny when you block their whole thing resulting in practically a 2 second hitstun on their part, and follow up with a simple launcher that took away 40% or more of their life. I've always hated it when people tried to play fighting games and tried to use the *cheapest* move on other beginners without bothering learning the basics. This guy kept trying to to do paul's deathfist on me and I kept reversing it over and over again, and he was like "WTF I THOUGHT IT WAS UNBLOCKABLE!" | ||
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TaP.Nuada
United States428 Posts
On February 16 2009 13:28 Scooter wrote: What're you apologizing for? You had a good point. I think Melee probably should've been the only option on the list, too. The amount of bull shit in Brawl is just sick. It's not even the lack of wavedash and other ATs that bugs me (though that really did tick me off early on), it's just that the game is the most unbalanced junk ever. Metaknight and the SS tier? Garbo. It's amazing that the best players still won at Evo. Buuuut, if you liked Melee there's other games you'd probably be good at too. Learning how to play Magneto in Marvel is a lot like Fox, with ROM infinites in place of wave dash and assists in place of down throw combos. You can't really say how good the games are compared to each other, but I think the Marvel community is a lot more funner and mature (in a prison gang sort of way) than the Smash guys. Then again, most of this has to do with who you can play with. I like playing Marth/Falco mainly. Link/Zelda/Dr. Mario/Samus I play just for fun. Is a good character recommendation possible based on that? If I can find a way to play without much trouble I'll give it a shot. My fingers aren't ultra fast either. ie. I can't do the PTP (perfect tornado press) with mario on normal speed in melee, and it's EXTREMELY difficult for me to repeatedly shine cancel with falco/fox (though I haven't given this one much practice) | ||
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