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On June 09 2011 06:05 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:03 Zocat wrote:On June 08 2011 21:25 Fruscainte wrote:
My final point I guess is Bioware doesn't really know what makes an MMO good. They are making a singleplayer RPG for multiplayer, essentially. I mean it literally looks exactly like KOTOR in terms of menu interface from what I've seen so far, the dialogue is very ME2/DA2ish, the combat is essentially KOTOR spells but with no pausing necessary, and companions. It would make a fantastic singleplayer game most likely, but as an MMO? It looks average.
So - what makes a MMO good? It seems like you know what it makes, why dont you share that knowledge with the rest of us?  What makes an MMO good? Not copying old MMO's. Adding something new to the table. Being creative. Copying your old games' dialogue system, another games combat, another games companion system, extremely outdated graphics (don't pull BAD PC LOL on me, GW2 for instance is very modern graphics and can run on 5+ year old computers easily), and clunky gameplay. Most importantly, it has to be MULTIPLAYER. An MMO should not be a single person grind and you should not have a bunch of companions to keep you company. You should have PLAYERS to keep you company and talk to. You should have YOURSELF and REAL PEOPLE to progress your story with, not some random NPC that everyone else is romancing and progressing with. Show nested quote +The only real X factor that people should be worried about is how well/poorly Bioware will handle the community in the months after the launch. Ding Ding! This guy has got it. If it's anything like DA2's launch where they perma ban people from playing their games if they even mention not liking their glorious game, it will crash and burn faster than the Hindenburg.
All MMOs copy one another. I also understand the personal initiative point you made, but it really isn't possible namely because direction is determined by quest lines and not free exploring. In other words, if there aren't quest lines given by certain NPCs to really guide you along, players tend to get lost along the way, that's not a knock on the players or game design, but you don't want players going, where do I go now? Constantly.
As for the companion system, its designed to get around what hurt vanilla WoW the most, the fact that you needed people to do the really exciting things and give the designers some leeway in designing classes. Like waiting for a healer/tank was the most mind numbing thing in vanilla WoW, trying to farm as a Healer/Tank was stupid as well. All of that leads to more points than what I want to get into, but I see the companion system is a nice addition. You are not required to use the system if you don't want to, there is no doubt there are other players who are in the same boat, so manner up and pair up
Like I understand what you getting at, but in practice that rarely happens and that's more on human nature and chance than anything Bioware can do.
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Seriously BioWare, FU.
Why, every time I manage to convince myself that this game is absolutely terrible, that it's just a WoW-clone with terrible graphics and awful character animation, you release one of those "OMG kick ass gorgeous epic trailer"?
Now, I'm pumped again and I want to play it...
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On June 09 2011 06:05 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 01:03 Zocat wrote:On June 08 2011 21:25 Fruscainte wrote:
My final point I guess is Bioware doesn't really know what makes an MMO good. They are making a singleplayer RPG for multiplayer, essentially. I mean it literally looks exactly like KOTOR in terms of menu interface from what I've seen so far, the dialogue is very ME2/DA2ish, the combat is essentially KOTOR spells but with no pausing necessary, and companions. It would make a fantastic singleplayer game most likely, but as an MMO? It looks average.
So - what makes a MMO good? It seems like you know what it makes, why dont you share that knowledge with the rest of us? What makes an MMO good? Not copying old MMO's. Adding something new to the table. Being creative. Copying your old games' dialogue system, another games combat, another games companion system, extremely outdated graphics (don't pull BAD PC LOL on me, GW2 for instance is very modern graphics and can run on 5+ year old computers easily), and clunky gameplay. Most importantly, it has to be MULTIPLAYER. An MMO should not be a single person grind and you should not have a bunch of companions to keep you company. You should have PLAYERS to keep you company and talk to. You should have YOURSELF and REAL PEOPLE to progress your story with, not some random NPC that everyone else is romancing and progressing with. Show nested quote +The only real X factor that people should be worried about is how well/poorly Bioware will handle the community in the months after the launch. Ding Ding! This guy has got it. If it's anything like DA2's launch where they perma ban people from playing their games if they even mention not liking their glorious game, it will crash and burn faster than the Hindenburg.
???
Countless number of MMOs have tried bringing tons of different things to the table, and yet almost all of them have crashed and burned, been shut down, or are struggling with fewer and fewer subscribers. On the other hand Rift which is practically in all respects a WoW clone and brings almost nothing new to the table was a million+ strong at launch and doing good. People "say" they don't want a WoW clone, but they won't support games that go away from it. So if anything, people just want more of the same with just a different spice on top of it.
As for the rest, you're just twisting what people are saying are going to be strong suits of this game and trying to make it look terrible or like they will just ignore all the other factors. For instance I like when an MMO has a good amount of significant good quality stuff you can do on your own, but that if you can find friends you can do more. Spamming a channel for a group just isn't my thing.
I don't get your comparison to DA2 "launch". They permabanned people from playing a single player game if they said something bad about the game??? I'm missing something because that didn't make a lick of sense... not only that, but the game was actually fairly good. Not a classic, but if you invested enough time to finish it, think of all the other terrible games you didn't even get past the first few levels.
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On June 09 2011 08:05 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 06:05 Fruscainte wrote:On June 09 2011 01:03 Zocat wrote:On June 08 2011 21:25 Fruscainte wrote:
My final point I guess is Bioware doesn't really know what makes an MMO good. They are making a singleplayer RPG for multiplayer, essentially. I mean it literally looks exactly like KOTOR in terms of menu interface from what I've seen so far, the dialogue is very ME2/DA2ish, the combat is essentially KOTOR spells but with no pausing necessary, and companions. It would make a fantastic singleplayer game most likely, but as an MMO? It looks average.
So - what makes a MMO good? It seems like you know what it makes, why dont you share that knowledge with the rest of us? What makes an MMO good? Not copying old MMO's. Adding something new to the table. Being creative. Copying your old games' dialogue system, another games combat, another games companion system, extremely outdated graphics (don't pull BAD PC LOL on me, GW2 for instance is very modern graphics and can run on 5+ year old computers easily), and clunky gameplay. Most importantly, it has to be MULTIPLAYER. An MMO should not be a single person grind and you should not have a bunch of companions to keep you company. You should have PLAYERS to keep you company and talk to. You should have YOURSELF and REAL PEOPLE to progress your story with, not some random NPC that everyone else is romancing and progressing with. The only real X factor that people should be worried about is how well/poorly Bioware will handle the community in the months after the launch. Ding Ding! This guy has got it. If it's anything like DA2's launch where they perma ban people from playing their games if they even mention not liking their glorious game, it will crash and burn faster than the Hindenburg. ??? Countless number of MMOs have tried bringing tons of different things to the table, and yet almost all of them have crashed and burned, been shut down, or are struggling with fewer and fewer subscribers. On the other hand Rift which is practically in all respects a WoW clone and brings almost nothing new to the table was a million+ strong at launch and doing good. People "say" they don't want a WoW clone, but they won't support games that go away from it. So if anything, people just want more of the same with just a different spice on top of it. As for the rest, you're just twisting what people are saying are going to be strong suits of this game and trying to make it look terrible or like they will just ignore all the other factors. For instance I like when an MMO has a good amount of significant good quality stuff you can do on your own, but that if you can find friends you can do more. Spamming a channel for a group just isn't my thing. I don't get your comparison to DA2 "launch". They permabanned people from playing a single player game if they said something bad about the game??? I'm missing something because that didn't make a lick of sense... not only that, but the game was actually fairly good. Not a classic, but if you invested enough time to finish it, think of all the other terrible games you didn't even get past the first few levels.
1) Yeah, that's why millions are supporting Guild Wars 2 which is 100% separate from WoW so far from what we see. No, let's not turn this into a SWTOR vs GW2 thread. But the point stands that people are supporting something moving away from the pack heavily.
2) Not liking something someone else likes is not "twisting" it
3) Just because you have no friends to play with doesn't mean people need to cater to you in MMO's. It's a Massively MULTIPLAYER RPG. If you want to do shit on your own with NPC's, go play something called a SINGLEPLAYER RPG. I know, I may be going too fast for you. But bear with me.
4) What don't you understand? If you trash talked their game in any way or however intelligently they banned the account/CD Key linked to your forum/website account from playing their games, singleplayer or multiplayer while you were online.
5) If a sandwich tastes like utter shit, I'm not going to take a few more bites out of it to see on the off chance that it tastes good near the end.
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On June 09 2011 07:34 Merany wrote:
Seriously BioWare, FU.
Why, every time I manage to convince myself that this game is absolutely terrible, that it's just a WoW-clone with terrible graphics and awful character animation, you release one of those "OMG kick ass gorgeous epic trailer"?
Now, I'm pumped again and I want to play it...
How/why does a cinematic trailer pump you up for the gameplay? You're going to be spending all your time in the world of 'terrible graphics and awful character animation', not the 'kick ass gorgeous epic' part.
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On June 09 2011 08:25 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:34 Merany wrote:
Seriously BioWare, FU.
Why, every time I manage to convince myself that this game is absolutely terrible, that it's just a WoW-clone with terrible graphics and awful character animation, you release one of those "OMG kick ass gorgeous epic trailer"?
Now, I'm pumped again and I want to play it... How/why does a cinematic trailer pump you up for the gameplay? You're going to be spending all your time in the world of 'terrible graphics and awful character animation', not the 'kick ass gorgeous epic' part.
And that's why I get so peeved when I see that video, look in the comments and see all this "OH GOD THIS GAME LOOKS SO EPIC SO BUYING GOOD JOB BIOWARE, GOOD JOB AS USUAL" crap. People actually think that's representative of the gameplay.
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Bioware needs to just admit it and start making a movie.
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It's easy to support GW in general, because the investment has usually been easier than most other MMOs. To me GW would never have held a leaf to WoW if they considered going on a subscriber model. The flip side to it was that worlds in GW tended to be broken and disjointed into thousands of instances. Which wasn't bad mind you, since it was "free". Personally GW wasn't my cup of tea, but to me GW always struck me like a game that was different from wow only in that it couldn't do all of what a subscription based MMO could do so they just grew laterally from what they could do.
WoW, and by emulation almost every other MMO on the market, has been spending the last few years making sure they always have content that can be done at various sizes of group with various makeups just so when you "can" be online there is always something you can do. That's pretty much a staple of every game. Guild wars had a TON of that type of content. People are just saying that it's an obvious strong suit for Bioware and that you likely won't feel like Joe Nobody while you are trying to learn your skills and it's likely to be fairly engaging.
If you managed to get banned from playing singleplayer and the forums from trash talking on their forums, I'd just laugh. If you have the gall to complain afterwards that you can't play your "terrible" game afterwards I'd find that even funnier.
My comment on people complaining about DA 2 is mostly pointed to the people who somehow though it was the worst thing since ... *insert terrible event of your choice* but still somehow played 20-40 hrs and finished the game once or twice.
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On June 09 2011 08:48 Furycrab wrote:
If you managed to get banned from playing singleplayer and the forums from trash talking on their forums, I'd just laugh.
This statement alone is enough to discredit any further comments or points you make.
I personally never got banned. And stop using those words. No one "managed" to get banned for "trash talking" their games. People got banned unexpectedly with no notice of how they can be banned from their games whilst online, whether singleplayer or not for even uttering any form of criticism on a FORUM. It wasn't just DA2, it was EVERY Bioware game attached to your account where you had to activate a CD key. So Origins, Mass Effect 1 or 2, etc. All not playable if you were banned like that. Some guy who made a huge post saying how good the game was and made a paragraph saying what he didn't like was deemed a troll and perma banned because of his slightly negative opinion.
God, I know I'm going to be hounded for this: But stop being such an idiot.
Also, I explicitly say that was not a GW vs SWTOR post but just a point that people ARE supporting something being brought new to the table, and you make this huge post about WoW vs SWTOR vs GW? Are you serious? How dense can you be?
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On June 09 2011 08:25 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:34 Merany wrote:
Seriously BioWare, FU.
Why, every time I manage to convince myself that this game is absolutely terrible, that it's just a WoW-clone with terrible graphics and awful character animation, you release one of those "OMG kick ass gorgeous epic trailer"?
Now, I'm pumped again and I want to play it... How/why does a cinematic trailer pump you up for the gameplay? You're going to be spending all your time in the world of 'terrible graphics and awful character animation', not the 'kick ass gorgeous epic' part.
Imagination my friend, its a hell of a drug.
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It seems like it's going to be very hard for them to break even with the $300 million they spent making this game...I may end up buying it because the initial ride might be fun, depending on how the single player campaign stuff gets reviewed, but I can't imagine staying around and paying a monthly fee to keep playing.
What makes me mad is that they could have made KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 with the budget they used for this, and had them all be masterpieces.
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On June 09 2011 09:07 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:48 Furycrab wrote:
If you managed to get banned from playing singleplayer and the forums from trash talking on their forums, I'd just laugh.
This statement alone is enough to discredit any further comments or points you make. I personally never got banned. And stop using those words. No one "managed" to get banned for "trash talking" their games. People got banned unexpectedly with no notice of how they can be banned from their games whilst online, whether singleplayer or not for even uttering any form of criticism on a FORUM. It wasn't just DA2, it was EVERY Bioware game attached to your account where you had to activate a CD key. So Origins, Mass Effect 1 or 2, etc. All not playable if you were banned like that. Some guy who made a huge post saying how good the game was and made a paragraph saying what he didn't like was deemed a troll and perma banned because of his slightly negative opinion. God, I know I'm going to be hounded for this: But stop being such an idiot. Also, I explicitly say that was not a GW vs SWTOR post but just a point that people ARE supporting something being brought new to the table, and you make this huge post about WoW vs SWTOR vs GW? Are you serious? How dense can you be?
Are you like 13 years old? Where you have to try and throw in insults every two sentences if someone isn't of the same opinion as you? I guess I can play at your level: Find me someone who actually got banned for saying something he didn't like in the game in a polite manner, or I just won't believe you that it happened. "Some guy" has been victim to everything if you believe the internet.
More often than not, I'm guessing the people that did get banned went with personal attacks at what they though of the devs going as low as insulting them directly. So if someone got his EA account banned, I really wouldn't feel bad about them. Which to be honest they didn't really got barred from anything other than getting additional DLC since the EA account isn't what lets you play the games, well at least not DA or DA2, and just might mean they will have to use a different email if they decide to be hypocrites and buy another bioware game.
I used WoW as the Standard, since it is, and because what you say makes a great game, ironically isn't what people are putting their wallet behind. I compare GW to WOW because those games are out. I can say something about how those two games relate, on how successful they were... I can't say much about SWTOR or GW2 other than "I might buy it" or "It doesn't look like something I will like". Saying : "I think the game will crash and burn like the Hindenburg", now THAT'S an uninformed stupid opinion, but whose keeping score?
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On June 09 2011 09:31 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:07 Fruscainte wrote:On June 09 2011 08:48 Furycrab wrote:
If you managed to get banned from playing singleplayer and the forums from trash talking on their forums, I'd just laugh.
This statement alone is enough to discredit any further comments or points you make. I personally never got banned. And stop using those words. No one "managed" to get banned for "trash talking" their games. People got banned unexpectedly with no notice of how they can be banned from their games whilst online, whether singleplayer or not for even uttering any form of criticism on a FORUM. It wasn't just DA2, it was EVERY Bioware game attached to your account where you had to activate a CD key. So Origins, Mass Effect 1 or 2, etc. All not playable if you were banned like that. Some guy who made a huge post saying how good the game was and made a paragraph saying what he didn't like was deemed a troll and perma banned because of his slightly negative opinion. God, I know I'm going to be hounded for this: But stop being such an idiot. Also, I explicitly say that was not a GW vs SWTOR post but just a point that people ARE supporting something being brought new to the table, and you make this huge post about WoW vs SWTOR vs GW? Are you serious? How dense can you be? Are you like 13 years old? Where you have to try and throw in insults every two sentences if someone isn't of the same opinion as you?
Starting off with ad hominem and then talking about maturity in debates is the purest form of hypocrisy out there. Classic.
Also, hold up. I'll get that source for the guy who was banned in a second.
So here's a good case. This is just one though where he dodged the IP ban and made a new account to question the ban. He deserved the forum ban 100%, as did some people admittedly, but losing access to games he legally purchased with his own money for saying something stupid on an internet forum? That's just stupid. Whether or not he deserved to be banned on the forums is 100% irrelevant whether or not he should have access to a SINGLE PLAYER game.
I did read this guys' post that got him banned though, and that line he got banned for was a very minor line in a relatively decent post. It wasn't some full caps rage mode on hardcore troll post. It had legitimate points and at the end he said what he got banned for. He did deserve a good 3 day break from the forums, but as I will reiterate a million times, banned from his single player games as well? That's just a joke.
Sorry that I didn't get a screencap the instant it happened for you in the case I'm talking about and saved it after 4 HDD wipes just in case some kid doubted that Bioware was banning people from playing their games they BOUGHT for saying something negative on their forums. This is the best I can offer after a few searches to prove that they were doing this. If you don't see an issue with this, there's nothing left to discuss.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 09 2011 08:15 Fruscainte wrote:
3) Just because you have no friends to play with doesn't mean people need to cater to you in MMO's. It's a Massively MULTIPLAYER RPG. If you want to do shit on your own with NPC's, go play something called a SINGLEPLAYER RPG. I know, I may be going too fast for you. But bear with me.
I and many others said the exact same thing about WoW 7-8 years ago. Blizzard didn't listen -- they catered to those people. Now 12 million people play WoW. The numbers don't lie: there are an assload of people that buy MMORPGs to play by themselves, and making them happy is very lucrative.
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On June 09 2011 10:07 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:15 Fruscainte wrote:
3) Just because you have no friends to play with doesn't mean people need to cater to you in MMO's. It's a Massively MULTIPLAYER RPG. If you want to do shit on your own with NPC's, go play something called a SINGLEPLAYER RPG. I know, I may be going too fast for you. But bear with me. I and many others said the exact same thing about WoW 7-8 years ago. Blizzard didn't listen -- they catered to those people. Now 12 million people play WoW. The numbers don't lie: there are an assload of people that buy MMORPGs to play by themselves, and making them happy is very lucrative.
What?
People complained about Blizzard forcing you to play with other people and you're surprised people are playing with other people in the largest MMO? Wow, hold the phone there.
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On June 09 2011 10:20 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 10:07 ShadowDrgn wrote:On June 09 2011 08:15 Fruscainte wrote:
3) Just because you have no friends to play with doesn't mean people need to cater to you in MMO's. It's a Massively MULTIPLAYER RPG. If you want to do shit on your own with NPC's, go play something called a SINGLEPLAYER RPG. I know, I may be going too fast for you. But bear with me. I and many others said the exact same thing about WoW 7-8 years ago. Blizzard didn't listen -- they catered to those people. Now 12 million people play WoW. The numbers don't lie: there are an assload of people that buy MMORPGs to play by themselves, and making them happy is very lucrative. What? People complained about Blizzard forcing you to play with other people and you're surprised people are playing with other people in the largest MMO? Wow, hold the phone there.
This is where you are not familiar with the situation; all of the party making things they introduced, with the exception of the meeting stone change, killed the individual server community. So instead of developing a community on each server which is very much needed for PvP and PvE, they pretty much killed it.
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Wow guys I can't believe people have opinions!
Seriously stop bashing the game when you haven't played it yet.
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On June 09 2011 10:44 Dusty1337 wrote:
Wow guys I can't believe people have opinions!
Seriously stop bashing the game when you haven't played it yet.
By saying in a heavily sarcastic manner that people have the right to have opinions, you further yourself by saying that people who have negative opinions should shut up.
I'm missing your logic.
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Just got into beta currently installing you don't know how happy i am right now :D
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Guys.
Stop feeding Fruscainte. He doesn't like the game. He's not going to stop talking about it. He's not going to listen to arguments against his point of view. He's not going to stop using his condescending tone. He's not going to admit to having ever made a misstep in his posts about TOR.
He has an opinion. He insists on expressing it, which is completely within his rights. Neither his opinion nor his compulsion to share it are going to change.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/2158/bullshit.jpg)
