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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=16913
this was a thread from 4 years ago when mensrea did not believe in michael phelps. He won 6 golds and 2 bronzes that time, an amazing achievement. This year, he hopes to win 8 gold medals and has won 5 gold medals already, making new world records along the way. makes me proud to be an american

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/08/13/most_impressive/
+ Show Spoiler + BEIJING - The US lead in the men's 4 x 200-meter freestyle relay today was almost comical. And that was when Michael Phelps finished his leadoff leg in 1 minute 43.31 seconds. Not only was Phelps more than two seconds ahead of his nearest competitor, but he also put the Americans well ahead of world-record pace.
Phelps earned his fifth gold medal and his fifth world record of the Beijing Games when the US won the race in 6:58.56, smashing the previous record by 4.68 seconds. The gold represented the 13th Olympic medal of Phelps's career, surpassing swimmer Jenny Thompson for the most won by an American athlete. Between Phelps and the team's record-setting effort, runner-up Russia was an afterthought, touching the wall more than five seconds back for the silver medal.
"It's everything I ever dreamed about," said Phelps, whose victory earlier in the day in the 200-meter butterfly earned him his 10th gold medal, the most ever by an Olympian. "On the podium, I kept tearing up [thinking] back at it. I'm almost at a loss for words . . . I'm just really pumped about the relay. We talked about breaking seven minutes, and we did it."
When asked about his ongoing attempt to win eight gold medals, Phelps made it clear he still has "some left in the tank" and added, "From now on, it's just a downward slope. The end is close. I love it."
Phelps, Ryan Lochte, Ricky Berens, and Peter Vanderkaay celebrated their win with swimming's version of a victory lap, walking around the pool with their gold medals around their necks and American flags in hand. Although he watched from the stands and was not one of the four swimmers in the final, the relay triumph was also good news for North Easton's Erik Vendt. He has two silvers from past Olympics, but Vendt earned his first gold medal by virtue of swimming the third leg of the relay in the preliminaries.
For Phelps, the relay gold capped another day of dominance at the National Aquatics center. After finishing the 200-meter fly in a world-record 1:52:03, he casually tossed his goggles and cap to the pool deck. Following the medal ceremony, he tossed the bouquet of flowers to his mother in the stands. There should be a few more of those bouquets to come.
In his quest to win eight gold medals at the Games, Phelps passed the halfway point with the relay win. But his victory in the butterfly was another record-setter as he surpassed Finnish track runner Paavo Nurmi, American sprinter Carl Lewis, American swimmer Mark Spitz, and Ukranian gymnast Larissa Latynina with gold medal No. 10. And Phelps won the race despite difficulty seeing. A lesser swimmer might have been completely thrown off by goggle problems, but apparently nothing can stop Phelps.
"I couldn't see for the last 100," said Phelps. "My goggles pretty much filled up with water. It just kept getting worse and worse through the race and I was having trouble seeing the walls, to be honest. But it's fine. I wanted to go 1:51 or better, but for the circumstances I guess it's not too bad."
While Phelps keeps collecting gold, Katie Hoff is still without a gold medal. In fact, she left the National Aquatics Center yesterday with no medals. It is far from the Olympics she imagined.
Hoff entered the Olympics with the fastest time in the women's 200-meter freestyle and a slight favorite in the event. But she finished a disappointing fourth in 1 minute 55.78 seconds. Her time set an American record, though that was little consolation for a swimmer who arrived at the Games ready to compete in six events (one relay) and hoping to win multiple golds. Italian Federica Pellegrini (1:54.82) appeared somewhat shocked with her world record-setting victory, pounding the water with her fist as the results appeared. Slovenia's Sara Isakovic finished second and China's Pang Jiaying took bronze.
"I would have liked to medal, but I got my first personal best of the meet and I think that's a good effort," said Hoff. "I can't be upset with that and I'm just moving onto the next heat."
Hoff's next event was the women's 200 individual medley. She was expected to challenge Stephanie Rice of Australia, who won the race. Instead, it was US teammate Natalie Coughlin who got to the medal stand with a time of 2:10.34, capturing bronze in an event she shied away from for years after finishing fourth in the event at the 2000 Olympic trials and failing to make the US team.
"It's a big surprise for me and it's my third medal [at Beijing]," said Coughlin. "Now, I've got one of each color, so I'm happy. It's a new event to me. I'm still trying to figure out my strategies, but I'm so pleased and really happy with the bronze. Back in April, I didn't have any event that day, so I just picked it up for something to do."
Meanwhile, Hoff may have too much to do at the Beijing Olympics to bring home the medals she desires. The 200 IM final was less than an hour after she swam the 200-meter freestyle final.
"She's a stud," said Coughlin., "She swam many, many events and many unusual doubles. But with the 200 free and 200 IM, she'd be tired. I'd be tired too, if I had more events."
Hoff, who has won a bronze and a silver here, has one more shot - in the 800 free - to win individual gold.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
No, he's awesome. Now, to Sports & Games we go!
Edit - I get props for being from Baltimore, right? I'm sure we'll have parades and shit for him again when he gets back (just like 4 years ago after Athens)
Winningest player ever!
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He's awesome, I'm really praying he does not become another doping scandal, it will destroy the games T_T. The gaps he gets over his rivals are just unbelievable, is like and adult defeating kids. I really hope he makes it, at least 7 golds to repeat Spitz record.
PS: Mensrea is always right.
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well the other threads were in general sorry about that
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Sweden4385 Posts
I just can't believe my eyes when seeing Phelps swim. He's breaking world records more often then I change underwear :O The guy is fucking amazing.
As said before, I sure don't hope they find out that he takes performance enhancing drugs or something like that.
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He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it.
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There's also no reason to not believe it. I really believe that he's just naturally talented, it'd be a shame if he was using some sort of drug.
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On August 13 2008 18:21 KlaCkoN wrote: He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it.
excuse my french, but youre fucking retarded.
contributing factors:
1. the water cube - its deeper, wider, allows better times for swimmers
2. the suit - its like theyre not even in water! (read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/936813/does_space_age_lzr_swimsuit_make_water.html?cat=15 )
3. physique - taller = longer reach. tall people are generally better swimmers because of this and how they move through water
4. training - ya, real athletes actually train in their specialty. phelps has been doing this since he was 11
and id like to say the suit is a big factor too. in one of the finals, there were ~5 people who broke the previous world record for it.
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On August 13 2008 18:35 useLess wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 18:21 KlaCkoN wrote: He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it. excuse my french, but youre fucking retarded. contributing factors: 1. the water cube - its deeper, wider, allows better times for swimmers 2. the suit - its like theyre not even in water! (read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/936813/does_space_age_lzr_swimsuit_make_water.html?cat=15 ) 3. physique - taller = longer reach. tall people are generally better swimmers because of this and how they move through water 4. training - ya, real athletes actually train in their specialty. phelps has been doing this since he was 11 and id like to say the suit is a big factor too. in one of the finals, there were ~5 people who broke the previous world record for it.
No as far as I know I am not retarded  And yes the new suit + the water cube would explain why everyone is swimming faster. The only thing I am saying is that Phelps seems to be jsut a little _too_ good compared to everyone else. And historically almost every time someone has seemed just a little bit _too_ good to be true they have been on drugs. And please most swimmers have trained since they were 11.
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oh, so because phelps is winning means hes on drugs, right?
well, i guess michael jordan and kobe bryant must be hopped up on drugs too
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he just owned the olympics :p
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Sure Phelp's performance will seem suspicious to some people, but that's always happened in sports. To me, Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France 7 times in a row is even more impressive and thus suspicious than Phelps winning (so far) 5 gold medals with 5 new world records.
Do I openly suspect that either of them are or have cheated? No. But if there was a time in the future that proved either or both of them, or any other athlete for that matter, did cheat, I would not be surprised. Innocent until proven guilty, I believe in that.
If you let your mind dwell on the fact that all dominating athletes are doping because of "past history," then that is your opinion. But I think it is stupid to accuse other people of doing something illegal unless there is proof.
edit: clarity
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On August 13 2008 19:16 Titusmaster6 wrote: Sure Phelp's performance will seem suspicious to some people, but that's always happened in sports. To me, Lance Armstrong winning the Tour de France 7 times in a row is even more impressive and thus suspicious than Phelps winning (so far) 5 gold medals with 5 new world records.
Do I openly suspect that either of them are or have cheated? No. But if there was a time in the future that either or both of them, or any other athlete for that matter, did cheat, I would not be surprised. Innocent until proven guilty, I believe in that.
If you let your mind dwell on the fact that all dominating athletes are doping because of "past history," then that is your opinion. But I think it is stupid to accuse other people of doing something illegal unless there is proof.
Fair enough. I just think that there has been too many scandals in sports for the "innocent until proven guilty" thing to hold any weight anymore. Besides not that I know anything at all about cycling but hasn't Armstrong been involved in several doping scandals already, forgive me if I am thinking of someone else?
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No, Armstrong didn't have any doping positive, but I believed he had some sort of different analisys because of the cancer he suffered and the treatment he had.
Marion Jones was like Phelps for his rivals, always 4 meters ahead, raping every race and then gotcha!
Johan Muelegg, the same case, on such a hard sport as cross-country ski is, always 20 meters ahead and gotcha!
Fucking cheaters T_T I really hope Phelps is not using.
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Ha! We need Phelps' gold medal to make up for our other potential gold that could only get silver or bronze.
He's awesome. Hopefully it was all legit.
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Definitely the best performer in the Olympics so far
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Phelps being fast and having physical edge above others is known fact. Nothing new about that.
But what amazes atleast me and seems so unlogical is how the guy performs almost without no rest and doing all these World Records. Human body has it`s limits, limits that eventually can`t be pushed away even with years of training. Sooner or later body would say " I`ve had enough, lets drink some cold beers and watch TV, enough of those World Records".
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On August 13 2008 18:46 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 18:35 useLess wrote:On August 13 2008 18:21 KlaCkoN wrote: He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it. excuse my french, but youre fucking retarded. contributing factors: 1. the water cube - its deeper, wider, allows better times for swimmers 2. the suit - its like theyre not even in water! (read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/936813/does_space_age_lzr_swimsuit_make_water.html?cat=15 ) 3. physique - taller = longer reach. tall people are generally better swimmers because of this and how they move through water 4. training - ya, real athletes actually train in their specialty. phelps has been doing this since he was 11 and id like to say the suit is a big factor too. in one of the finals, there were ~5 people who broke the previous world record for it. No as far as I know I am not retarded  And yes the new suit + the water cube would explain why everyone is swimming faster. The only thing I am saying is that Phelps seems to be jsut a little _too_ good compared to everyone else. And historically almost every time someone has seemed just a little bit _too_ good to be true they have been on drugs. And please most swimmers have trained since they were 11.
I agree, Phelps IS a swimming genius. Just like Einstein was a physics genius and Beethoven was a musical genius.
But I watched the 400x4 with my brother yesterday and it was simply ridiculous how he burned everyone else. BTW did you guys notice how he always jumps a couple feet farther than anyone else at the kickoff? So coupling all that together I thought: How bad a scandal would it be if he turned out to be doping? I hope to god he isn't, but I'm just saying.
And for Canada... We are suffering from the "My team sucks!" syndrome.
Kyle Shuffelt: MY TEAM SUCKS Brent Hayden: MY TEAM IS BAWLZ!!!
Canada was in 5th place until the 3rd leg, Brent Hayden, who cranked us all the way up to 2nd place. And then the last guy blew it and we fell back in 5th.
Man....
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CHINEEZ DIEVERSZ ON DRUGZZZZ TOOO!!!
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On August 13 2008 20:39 eStoniaNBoY wrote: Phelps being fast and having physical edge above others is known fact. Nothing new about that.
But what amazes atleast me and seems so unlogical is how the guy performs almost without no rest and doing all these World Records. Human body has it`s limits, limits that eventually can`t be pushed away even with years of training. Sooner or later body would say " I`ve had enough, lets drink some cold beers and watch TV, enough of those World Records".
I think there is enough time to rest between swimming events. It's not like he is running an hour marathon
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Phelps is definitely an incredible swimmer. I always thought Thorpie would go down as close to the best ever with guys like Spitz and Popov and then Phelps just came along and Michael Jordaned the shit out of swimming.
I doubt I'll ever see someone as good as he is in my lifetime.
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Well in most doping scandals the guy who was tested positive wasn´t necessarily way in front of everybody else. steroids do make a huge difference in your performance, they let the body go further than nature intended. I think whats way worse is when in some competition everyone finishes in the same tenth of a second and one of them gets tested positive. it just proves that the other guys dope too. even if phelps is taking stuff, srsly guyz u think he´s the only one? if he still beats other dudes, who also are on roids, by a mile, its still an accomplishment. and taking stuff without getting caught is sooo easy. u can be on stuff all year, then stop, take some medication so your hormone levels look normal again and still get the benefits at the competition. people are constantly whining about that hole, that nobody has to take constant tests. additionally there is stuff you can do, that can not be proven, even while doing it in the competition. blood doping for example. its their job guys, its obvious there are ways to do it without being caught and knowing that its about money who wouldn´t do it.
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On August 13 2008 22:00 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 20:39 eStoniaNBoY wrote: Phelps being fast and having physical edge above others is known fact. Nothing new about that.
But what amazes atleast me and seems so unlogical is how the guy performs almost without no rest and doing all these World Records. Human body has it`s limits, limits that eventually can`t be pushed away even with years of training. Sooner or later body would say " I`ve had enough, lets drink some cold beers and watch TV, enough of those World Records". I think there is enough time to rest between swimming events. It's not like he is running an hour marathon 
if you've never swam competitively, you have no idea how much each race takes out of you. look at the video of bernard after the 4x100 free relay, he dude was COMPLETELY gassed and was breathing SO hard, prolly took him hours to recover
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On August 13 2008 22:00 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 20:39 eStoniaNBoY wrote: Phelps being fast and having physical edge above others is known fact. Nothing new about that.
But what amazes atleast me and seems so unlogical is how the guy performs almost without no rest and doing all these World Records. Human body has it`s limits, limits that eventually can`t be pushed away even with years of training. Sooner or later body would say " I`ve had enough, lets drink some cold beers and watch TV, enough of those World Records". I think there is enough time to rest between swimming events. It's not like he is running an hour marathon  This is obviously from someone who doesn't swim seriously.
Trust me, I'm not on a ridiculous level but I've swam some pretty tough meets (20 swims over 4 days). And trust me, it hurts like nothing else. Just imagining trying to swim something like the 400 IM or 200 Fly 3 times in a meet (most meets don't have semis) is absolutely ridiculous, and he's doing much more than just that.
EDIT: By the way, for the 200 fly, "Of the butterfly, he said, 'I couldn't see anything for the last 100. My goggles pretty much filled up with water. It just kept getting worse and worse through the race and I was having trouble seeing the walls, to be honest.'" He broke a world record without being able to see, that's ridiculous.
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lol i just read through a bit of that thread posted in the OP
a bunch of people were made to look very foolish. Michael Phelps washed up by 2008 olympics? He may still be competing at a high level in 2016! As long as he doesn't get bored..
I must say though, reading that thread where someone got nuked makes it 100x harder even with the few posts that I have quoted in there
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Russian Federation41 Posts
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Phelps is so freaking good! I do not think he is doping at all, I mean its not like he is the only one breaking world records here. Almost every single swimming event I watch this year ends in a world record being broken. Michael Jordan never doped and he dominated basketball like no other. Tom Brady doesn't dope, the best quarterback in the NFL by far (I'd say about as far ahead of other quarterbacks as Phelps is ahead of other swimmers). So just because he is so good does not mean he has to be doping. Whats really scary is that he wont reach his physical peak until the age of 28, so in the 2012 Olympics (27 years old) he will be even better assuming he continues practicing and suffers no major injuries or setbacks.
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lol i see alot of swimmers have premature balding, i wonder if it has anything to do with doping
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Heh, at least Laszlo Cseh is the one getting silvers behind him not some other american who has it the easy way (read: actual funding to get the leetest stuff possible whatever a sportsman may need).
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On August 13 2008 22:18 KOFgokuon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 22:00 [X]Ken_D wrote:On August 13 2008 20:39 eStoniaNBoY wrote: Phelps being fast and having physical edge above others is known fact. Nothing new about that.
But what amazes atleast me and seems so unlogical is how the guy performs almost without no rest and doing all these World Records. Human body has it`s limits, limits that eventually can`t be pushed away even with years of training. Sooner or later body would say " I`ve had enough, lets drink some cold beers and watch TV, enough of those World Records". I think there is enough time to rest between swimming events. It's not like he is running an hour marathon  if you've never swam competitively, you have no idea how much each race takes out of you. look at the video of bernard after the 4x100 free relay, he dude was COMPLETELY gassed and was breathing SO hard, prolly took him hours to recover
The fact that races have this effect on swimmers makes it even more amazing that he could win the 200 butterfly and then, about an hour later, destroy the competition on the first leg of the 4x200. He's an amazing athlete.
Edit: grammar >.>
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On August 13 2008 23:37 OmegaFang wrote: Phelps is so freaking good! I do not think he is doping at all, I mean its not like he is the only one breaking world records here. Almost every single swimming event I watch this year ends in a world record being broken. Michael Jordan never doped and he dominated basketball like no other. Tom Brady doesn't dope, the best quarterback in the NFL by far (I'd say about as far ahead of other quarterbacks as Phelps is ahead of other swimmers). So just because he is so good does not mean he has to be doping. Whats really scary is that he wont reach his physical peak until the age of 28, so in the 2012 Olympics (27 years old) he will be even better assuming he continues practicing and suffers no major injuries or setbacks. I agree that Phelps is amazing, but physical peak at 28? Yea right.
Most swimmers peak around 20, and I think that Phelps is just about at his peak. He can keep swimming at that level if he trains really hard, but physically, it's just going to get harder. Of course, he's also improving because of massive improvements in his stroke and walls (especially walls), which is where I think most of the improvement from last Olympics to now has come.
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If Phelps were his own country, he'd be ranked 5th in total gold right now
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On August 13 2008 23:46 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 23:37 OmegaFang wrote: Phelps is so freaking good! I do not think he is doping at all, I mean its not like he is the only one breaking world records here. Almost every single swimming event I watch this year ends in a world record being broken. Michael Jordan never doped and he dominated basketball like no other. Tom Brady doesn't dope, the best quarterback in the NFL by far (I'd say about as far ahead of other quarterbacks as Phelps is ahead of other swimmers). So just because he is so good does not mean he has to be doping. Whats really scary is that he wont reach his physical peak until the age of 28, so in the 2012 Olympics (27 years old) he will be even better assuming he continues practicing and suffers no major injuries or setbacks. I agree that Phelps is amazing, but physical peak at 28? Yea right. Most swimmers peak around 20, and I think that Phelps is just about at his peak. He can keep swimming at that level if he trains really hard, but physically, it's just going to get harder. Of course, he's also improving because of massive improvements in his stroke and walls (especially walls), which is where I think most of the improvement from last Olympics to now has come.
Hm, I suppose the average human peaks around 28 then? I thought I read that somewhere. Swimmers are gassed out by then I suppose, it would make sense. And yes he has improved on the walls so much, it's just so amazing to watch now.
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On August 13 2008 23:37 new_construct wrote: lol i see alot of swimmers have premature balding, i wonder if it has anything to do with doping
Its the chlorine. It eats hair. Usually only girls wear caps when they swim, the guys don't. My hair is still horrible 2 years after I stopped swimming. During the end of a season it would fall out in clumps :/ Pretty disgusting.
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Besides that suit they have is rediculous. I remember the drop in time I had from just getting a second gen fast skin - this thing is even crazier. Not only does it wick water away from your body (youre dry underneath the suit when you come out of the water btw) It also compresses the muscle in your arms/legs to improve performance. You can see the difference in suits between swimmers - The countries that dont have contracts with Speedo - and are stuck with Arena, Adidas, or Diana (worst suits) are really hurting.
I know Japan's breastroker specifically broke contract to get his speedo suit and it sure as hell paid off for him.
Also - the pool. Lane technology has come such a far way. They were showing the warmup pool a few days ago, and you can see how well wider lanes, deeper lanes, and better lanelines squelch waves between lanes - an active lane had no effect on the glass like surface the lane over.
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phelps in swimming is so imba as 5 pool zergling rush or LT Terran progamers should have a doping test too
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On August 13 2008 23:59 yenta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 23:37 new_construct wrote: lol i see alot of swimmers have premature balding, i wonder if it has anything to do with doping Its the chlorine. It eats hair. Usually only girls wear caps when they swim, the guys don't. My hair is still horrible 2 years after I stopped swimming. During the end of a season it would fall out in clumps :/ Pretty disgusting.
Hey I was wondering about that. It seems that recently everyone is switching from Chlorine to Salt. What are they using in the olympic pools?
Edit: Nerf Phelps!
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Michael "imba" Phelps has won more 13 times as many medals as my entire country throughout the history of the olympics.
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On August 14 2008 00:06 yenta wrote: Besides that suit they have is rediculous. I remember the drop in time I had from just getting a second gen fast skin - this thing is even crazier. Not only does it wick water away from your body (youre dry underneath the suit when you come out of the water btw) It also compresses the muscle in your arms/legs to improve performance. You can see the difference in suits between swimmers - The countries that dont have contracts with Speedo - and are stuck with Arena, Adidas, or Diana (worst suits) are really hurting.
I know Japan's breastroker specifically broke contract to get his speedo suit and it sure as hell paid off for him.
Also - the pool. Lane technology has come such a far way. They were showing the warmup pool a few days ago, and you can see how well wider lanes, deeper lanes, and better lanelines squelch waves between lanes - an active lane had no effect on the glass like surface the lane over.
Since you seem to have swum competitively, why do some swimmers wear only the pants for their individual races, but wear the suits with the top during relays? An example is michael phelps. When he swims his individual races he only wears the pants, but wears more when he does relays. Any idea why he does this? You'd think he would be more comfortable wearing one rather than the other
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On August 14 2008 00:37 KOFgokuon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 00:06 yenta wrote: Besides that suit they have is rediculous. I remember the drop in time I had from just getting a second gen fast skin - this thing is even crazier. Not only does it wick water away from your body (youre dry underneath the suit when you come out of the water btw) It also compresses the muscle in your arms/legs to improve performance. You can see the difference in suits between swimmers - The countries that dont have contracts with Speedo - and are stuck with Arena, Adidas, or Diana (worst suits) are really hurting.
I know Japan's breastroker specifically broke contract to get his speedo suit and it sure as hell paid off for him.
Also - the pool. Lane technology has come such a far way. They were showing the warmup pool a few days ago, and you can see how well wider lanes, deeper lanes, and better lanelines squelch waves between lanes - an active lane had no effect on the glass like surface the lane over. Since you seem to have swum competitively, why do some swimmers wear only the pants for their individual races, but wear the suits with the top during relays? An example is michael phelps. When he swims his individual races he only wears the pants, but wears more when he does relays. Any idea why he does this? You'd think he would be more comfortable wearing one rather than the other A couple of reasons:
Some strokes/races simply feel better in certain suits. For instance, I personally dislike swimming breastroke in a legskin, so I almost always wear a jammer for IMs and breastroke. Sometimes it's also on a race by race basis, I simply feel like wearing a certain suit at a certain time.
You're limited by the number of suits you have. I'm sure Michael has a ton of suits from Speedo, but the fact is that you can't really wear the same suit twice in one session. Racing suits are designed to be worn dry, and after you swim, the rarely have the time to dry off completely in between races, especially if you wear them while warming down. Therefore, unless Michael has 3-4 bodysuits, he's not going to be racing in one every race.
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On August 14 2008 00:21 Krowser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 23:59 yenta wrote:On August 13 2008 23:37 new_construct wrote: lol i see alot of swimmers have premature balding, i wonder if it has anything to do with doping Its the chlorine. It eats hair. Usually only girls wear caps when they swim, the guys don't. My hair is still horrible 2 years after I stopped swimming. During the end of a season it would fall out in clumps :/ Pretty disgusting. Hey I was wondering about that. It seems that recently everyone is switching from Chlorine to Salt. What are they using in the olympic pools? Edit: Nerf Phelps!
I have no clue what they are using, but ionized pools are alot healthier (but the water tastes horrible )
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On August 13 2008 18:02 Storchen wrote: I just can't believe my eyes when seeing Phelps swim. He's breaking world records more often then I change underwear :O The guy is fucking amazing.
A few times in 8 years? Ewwwww
EDIT: Yeah, when I watched him swim, it was insane. it didn't even look like competition, just like a bunch of guys in a line following the leader (Phelps). He truly is amazing.
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On August 14 2008 00:49 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 00:37 KOFgokuon wrote:On August 14 2008 00:06 yenta wrote: Besides that suit they have is rediculous. I remember the drop in time I had from just getting a second gen fast skin - this thing is even crazier. Not only does it wick water away from your body (youre dry underneath the suit when you come out of the water btw) It also compresses the muscle in your arms/legs to improve performance. You can see the difference in suits between swimmers - The countries that dont have contracts with Speedo - and are stuck with Arena, Adidas, or Diana (worst suits) are really hurting.
I know Japan's breastroker specifically broke contract to get his speedo suit and it sure as hell paid off for him.
Also - the pool. Lane technology has come such a far way. They were showing the warmup pool a few days ago, and you can see how well wider lanes, deeper lanes, and better lanelines squelch waves between lanes - an active lane had no effect on the glass like surface the lane over. Since you seem to have swum competitively, why do some swimmers wear only the pants for their individual races, but wear the suits with the top during relays? An example is michael phelps. When he swims his individual races he only wears the pants, but wears more when he does relays. Any idea why he does this? You'd think he would be more comfortable wearing one rather than the other A couple of reasons: Some strokes/races simply feel better in certain suits. For instance, I personally dislike swimming breastroke in a legskin, so I almost always wear a jammer for IMs and breastroke. Sometimes it's also on a race by race basis, I simply feel like wearing a certain suit at a certain time. You're limited by the number of suits you have. I'm sure Michael has a ton of suits from Speedo, but the fact is that you can't really wear the same suit twice in one session. Racing suits are designed to be worn dry, and after you swim, the rarely have the time to dry off completely in between races, especially if you wear them while warming down. Therefore, unless Michael has 3-4 bodysuits, he's not going to be racing in one every race.
To add on to this - you have two types of strokes, long axis and short axis, in reference to how your body rotates as you swim. Breastroke and Fly are short axis (its all in the hips) and crawl (freestyle) / backstroke are long axis (you rotate around your spine). Also you have different techniques for swimming strokes.
I think the most noticeable difference in techniques is with breastroke - and to how high an athelete comes out of the water, and how deep they recover under the water. I feel that full body suits are detrimental (read as: personal prefenrence, constrict body movement, feels wrong, hurts - the suits are really tight and way less stretchy than a regular lycra speedo) to swimming breastroke if your body or technique causes a high upstroke or deep glide - this is why most breastrokers wear just the legs, or the jammers. Optimally, during breastroke, the hips should be high in the water, and should have little to no movement vertically during the swim. Its really the core that is pressing upwards, and than the chest pressing downwards as you glide. The two techniques relate to either generating a longer, more powerful glide - or actually powering through the water. You can see the difference by watching the 50M breastroke and the 200M breastroke. In the 50M its all about a high turnover and just powering hard with short strokes. For the 200M its about conserving energy and gliding as efficiently as possible.
Ultimately its the glide that generates your speed in longer events, and long axis strokes are usually faster in this regard because you're pretty much always gliding. You can argue that the fly is also fast in this regards because of the long length of the glide. So why body suits? Because you want the least resistance as you glide.
Adding on to the super suit - I forgot to mention it is also bouyant and raises your hips higher in the water. Thats a pretty huge difference (the higher you are in the water, the less resistance you have).
Adding on to changing suits - Watch the Athens olympics - there was one particular series of races where Ian Thorpe was actually changing into dry body suits on deck because he'd be running in between events or straight from the warmup pool.
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On August 13 2008 18:35 useLess wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 18:21 KlaCkoN wrote: He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it. excuse my french, but youre fucking retarded. contributing factors: 1. the water cube - its deeper, wider, allows better times for swimmers 2. the suit - its like theyre not even in water! (read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/936813/does_space_age_lzr_swimsuit_make_water.html?cat=15 ) 3. physique - taller = longer reach. tall people are generally better swimmers because of this and how they move through water 4. training - ya, real athletes actually train in their specialty. phelps has been doing this since he was 11 and id like to say the suit is a big factor too. in one of the finals, there were ~5 people who broke the previous world record for it.
Michael Phelps isnt the only one with these advantages
Its not ridiculous to think that doping might help in a sport where strength and endurance is required
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If anything, I can see him blood doping or oxygen doping for endurance/fatigue. That many races is just outright exhausting even for the most rediculous athelete. It just plain hurts after the second or third day of competition - and cramping/tightening is a huge problem. (Watch the french anchor of the 4x100M relay tighten as the US snipes the gold medal - You can actually see the difference between their arms on recovery - Lezak is loose and streching farther and Bernard is totally tight and reaching really short)
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On August 14 2008 01:36 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2008 18:35 useLess wrote:On August 13 2008 18:21 KlaCkoN wrote: He's obviosly on some drug, though it's probably mostly unknown (since obviously noone else is taking it and he doesn't get caught in tests.) Oh and I might be cynical but seriosuly every single time an athlete has been THIS insanly surprerior nowadays it has always turned out to be due to drugs. (maurice green, marion jones, mulegg, blah, blah,) Maybe phelps is different, but I have no real reason to belive it. excuse my french, but youre fucking retarded. contributing factors: 1. the water cube - its deeper, wider, allows better times for swimmers 2. the suit - its like theyre not even in water! (read: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/936813/does_space_age_lzr_swimsuit_make_water.html?cat=15 ) 3. physique - taller = longer reach. tall people are generally better swimmers because of this and how they move through water 4. training - ya, real athletes actually train in their specialty. phelps has been doing this since he was 11 and id like to say the suit is a big factor too. in one of the finals, there were ~5 people who broke the previous world record for it. Michael Phelps isnt the only one with these advantages Its not ridiculous to think that doping might help in a sport where strength and endurance is required Everyone else IS making huge strides too. I mean, the top 5 places in the 400 free relay broke the world record. They broke the world record and weren't even close to the podium.
And I seem to remember that Phelps recently agreed to go through a month long dope testing thing where he has constant blood and urine tests, so I really doubt that he is.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wait the cube helps people swim faster? wtf is that o_O lol plz explain
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On August 14 2008 02:06 alffla wrote: wait the cube helps people swim faster? wtf is that o_O lol plz explain
has to do with how the currents in the pool act. the deeper the pool, the less effect one swimmer has on another swimmer. also, the lanes are wider and the lane lines are thicker - so swimmers have less of an effect on the lane over.
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this thread is misleading, i thought it said Michael Phelps is NOT overall champion -.-
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Phelps makes swimming awesome.
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On August 14 2008 03:22 MarklarMarklar wrote: I heard phelps is gay!
I hope you get aids then get hit by a car.
Edit: and if you meant "gay" as in happy, that's still stupid.
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I wonder if he got his skills genetically i wonder if his mom swims or maybe his dad and she doesnt sound like she has good lungs so maybe its his dad
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On August 14 2008 04:05 OhThatDang wrote: I wonder if he got his skills genetically i wonder if his mom swims or maybe his dad and she doesnt sound like she has good lungs so maybe its his dad
I was wondering the same thing. His genetics must come from his father because his mother doesn't look athletically inclined.
I was reading the New York Times, and came across an article discussing the disparities in media coverage for Michael Phelps. The article makes good points, in that china doesn't cover Phelps events due to ultra nationalist rampaging the china's coverage on Phelps. Another thing that NYT mentions is if Phelps were Chinese, China will bloat about their greatest record breaking athlete. Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sports/olympics/14phelps.html?pagewanted=1&ref=olympics
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90% of elite athletes use/have used PED's. Simple as that...And it doesn't take anything from phelps, hes simply amazing...
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Thanks for your blanket statement and trust in humanity
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On August 14 2008 04:38 Sins wrote:I was reading the New York Times, and came across an article discussing the disparities in media coverage for Michael Phelps. The article makes good points, in that china doesn't cover Phelps events due to ultra nationalist rampaging the china's coverage on Phelps. Another thing that NYT mentions is if Phelps were Chinese, China will bloat about their greatest record breaking athlete. Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sports/olympics/14phelps.html?pagewanted=1&ref=olympics Certainly that makes sense, but at the same time, the predominately Chinese crowd certainly knows who he is and cheers heavily for him. I think due to the lack of Chinese swimmers, most Chinese have kind of taken on the US as their second home team, similar to how the USA basketball team says that they feel as though they have a second home court in China.
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=p thats true too sins! but then again abc doesnt cover much of a lot of sports that go on other than on their website which sucks for me cause i have slow internet >__<
the whole nationalism thing can go for a lot of people too if u think about it sad that phelps doesnt get the recognition he deserves
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United States10774 Posts
On August 13 2008 20:26 zulu_nation8 wrote: Definitely the best performer in the Olympics so far understatement :O
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United States22883 Posts
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The amount of food I ate when I swam was ungodly. Would literally sit in the dining hall whenever I wasn't at practice. I am not surprised most ex swimmers turn fat when they quit.
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I was wondering how long does it take to fully recover after a race?
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On August 14 2008 08:29 [X]Ken_D wrote: I was wondering how long does it take to fully recover after a race?
these guys have warm downs where they swim to get all the lactic acid and other free radicals out of their system and their blood stream... combined with the fact that most muscle tears usually take about 48 hours to fully repair (depending on how torn the fibers are) an athelete could be back to ~100% in about 2 days.... doing what phelps is doing day in day out.. AND multiple times a day is insane... it really really really is insane...
meanwhile, Ian Thorpe quit just in time to let Phelps shine.. he wouldn't be winning many freestyle medals if Ian was still around... shame for Australia.. congrats to Phelps... 5 medals is already monumental... I hope it doesn't go to his head
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Yeah, he's just insane. Every time I watch him in a race, I keep thinking to myself "He went way out in front way too fast...no way he can keep this up, he's gonna fall back with the pack eventually..." and he never does. Like DeathTray said, it isn't even a race, it's "Follow Michael Phelps".
As for the possibility of doping, I just try not to think about it. I won't say for sure that he isn't, but until (if) he fails a test, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Wasn't Thrope at the last olympics and he still won 6 golds? Don't think it would hurt his medal count much if at all if Thrope was still swimming today. Oh well, point is he's a beast who will win all 8 hopefully and counter balance all the golds the chinese get in diving, weightlifting and gymnastics.
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Phelps has destroyed Thorpe's 200 WR, and that's the only real event that he'd go head to head with Thorpe. Thorpe's 400 Free record is absolutely untouchable, but Phelps doesn't swim that. And I'm pretty sure that the American performance in the 800 free relay wouldn't be able to be beat even with Thorpe.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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why did it go from vegita hair to vegitto hair?
:X
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Wait, I'm getting confused. How many golds has Phelps won so far this year? I'm hearing 5, 7, 8, 10 and I don't know which is right. :S
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On August 14 2008 12:57 fusionsdf wrote: why did it go from vegita hair to vegitto hair?
:X
He's going super-sayan xD
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On August 14 2008 13:02 freedom yay wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 12:57 fusionsdf wrote: why did it go from vegita hair to vegitto hair?
:X He's going super-sayan xD No they are different characters
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He eats 12,000 calories a day, and burns it off in the same day. THE FUCK HES A MONSTER
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nike allowed their sponsored swimmers to wear the speedo suit, I bet some other larger brands may have followed. They don't want their swimmers to be at a huge disadvantage like that
On August 14 2008 13:02 Cobalt wrote: Wait, I'm getting confused. How many golds has Phelps won so far this year? I'm hearing 5, 7, 8, 10 and I don't know which is right. :S
Phelps has won 5 gold medals this year, 3 to go
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weird, i always thought of myself as a swimming fan, not hardcore perhaps, but i just don't care about phelps. i have not watched one of his races nor have i researched him much on the internet. the most interesting athletes this year for me have been dara torres and a couple of the asian swimmers basically making history as well.
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I don't remember if I read this from TL, but he has some physical characteristics that helps him (greatly?).
He has relatively short legs compared to his height, and his ankles are so flexible that his toes can touch the ground while laying backside to the ground. He can't run normally because of it.
Anyway, as a Korean I must say go Park Tae-Hwan!
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On August 14 2008 23:10 Wala.Revolution wrote: I don't remember if I read this from TL, but he has some physical characteristics that helps him (greatly?).
He has relatively short legs compared to his height, and his ankles are so flexible that his toes can touch the ground while laying backside to the ground. He can't run normally because of it.
Anyway, as a Korean I must say go Park Tae-Hwan!
Besides training harder than anyone else, Phelps does have some physical peculiarities that push him even further over the top:
- He has longer arms than his height would dictate. Most people have a wingspan more or less equal to their vertical height. Phelps' is significantly longer (significantly being several inches).
- It's documented that he is double jointed in the chest area. I have no idea how this works, but sports scientists say it allows him to dolphin-kick from the chest and the hips, as opposed to kicking mainly from the hips. Watch the guy when he's free-styling. He surfaces way after the other athletes and already had a lead from his ridiculous dolphin-kick alone.
- His feet are larger than average. While a lot of swimmers have his height, they don't have his wingspan or foot size.
He really has everything going for him. He has a body that seems as if it was genetically engineered for swimming, and he has the dedication and training to go along with it. It would be easy for him to rest on his physical gifts alone and still maybe win, but he doesn't, which makes him awesome.
It's funny how when you get to the highest level of sport, sometimes it's physical 'weirdness' that can help push a guy to the top. Kind of like how Lance Armstrong's body doesn't produce lactic acid in the way of a normal human. Kind of like how university researchers will look at top track and field athletes and notice strangeness in things like tendon lengths and crap like that.
Cool stuff.
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"Besides training harder than anyone else".
They are professionals. They all train all day long. It is how efficient their training is what really matters. Phelps has some physical advantages, but he isn`t a dolphin.
Recovering from all those qualification rounds and being able to break these world records in the finals is totally bizarree. You can`t mess with your body. Its impossible to go on without sleeping and it is physically impossible basically not resting at all ( you can sleep, rest, do procedures etc. but there is a time that body needs to recover fully you can`t heal it with medicine or whatever ). By that the guy has been competing at like 80% of his capability because the body has been worn down during the last race and still winning with world records?
What annoys me the most is that the guy is considered as a medal project.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 15 2008 02:56 eStoniaNBoY wrote: ). By that the guy has been competing at like 80% of his capability because the body has been worn down during the last race and still winning with world records?
I've been wondering about that. Aside from the big controversy topic (steroids), are swimming events in competition usually done in the same order? For instance if the order of events was the exact same in the 2004 Olympics, then all the major swimmers would be getting progressively worse as the week wears on, thus it wouldn't be unexpected to continue breaking records.
I saw the prelims earlier and he finished #2, so maybe he's taking it easy in the qualifiers?
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Honestly that guy is a freaking monster
He has like secret jet packs or some shit, I SWEAR
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On August 15 2008 03:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2008 02:56 eStoniaNBoY wrote: ). By that the guy has been competing at like 80% of his capability because the body has been worn down during the last race and still winning with world records?
I've been wondering about that. Aside from the big controversy topic (steroids), are swimming events in competition usually done in the same order? For instance if the order of events was the exact same in the 2004 Olympics, then all the major swimmers would be getting progressively worse as the week wears on, thus it wouldn't be unexpected to continue breaking records. I saw the prelims earlier and he finished #2, so maybe he's taking it easy in the qualifiers?
don't know about the order of events, but so far this olympics phelps has only been seeded 1st into the finals once, and that was his first race (i'm not sure how they determine lane order, though). in every other individual race he's only done well enough in the prelim heats to land himself into the finals (for example, he finished third in one of the semifinals in the 200m free behind park taehwan and another american), probably because he doesn't really need to swim his best to get a spot in the finals.
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Lane order is determined by placement in the semifinals...it's a little unclear though beyond that to be honest. There are 2 possibilities: Top qualifer from each semifinal is either in lane 4 or 5 (depending on who is faster), second fastest in each qualifier, qualifer is in lane 3 or 6, third fastest is 2 or 7, and then then last 2 spots go to whoever had the best times of the rest of the swimmers.
The other is that they just take the 8 fastest times out of the semi finals, and they go to to the following lanes in this order: 4, 5, 3, 6, 2, 7, 1, 8.
The thing is that I know that you if you top 3 in the semifinal you're guarenteed a spot in the finals so maybe it's just a combination of those two methods
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For quals - The first 3 heats of 8 are circle seeded, 4, 5, 3, 6, 2, 7, 1, 8 - than the last heats are just seeded by qualification time. Semi finals are circle seeded.
Circle seeding - Take top qualification times - #1 goes to last heat, lane 4, #2 goes to second to last heat, lane 4, #3 goes to third to last heat, lane 4, #4 goes to last heat lane 5 and so on and so on.
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United States17042 Posts
Circle seeding is both the best and the worst. the best because that way the fastest swimmers don't already feel like they're in the finals. The worst because everyone slow feels like if they can stay with the fastest person then they'll be able to at least make it to finals (and be dead tired once they do make it)
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On August 15 2008 02:56 eStoniaNBoY wrote: "Besides training harder than anyone else".
They are professionals. They all train all day long. It is how efficient their training is what really matters. Phelps has some physical advantages, but he isn`t a dolphin.
Recovering from all those qualification rounds and being able to break these world records in the finals is totally bizarree. You can`t mess with your body. Its impossible to go on without sleeping and it is physically impossible basically not resting at all ( you can sleep, rest, do procedures etc. but there is a time that body needs to recover fully you can`t heal it with medicine or whatever ). By that the guy has been competing at like 80% of his capability because the body has been worn down during the last race and still winning with world records?
What annoys me the most is that the guy is considered as a medal project.
On August 14 2008 10:02 MaZza[KIS] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 08:29 [X]Ken_D wrote: I was wondering how long does it take to fully recover after a race? these guys have warm downs where they swim to get all the lactic acid and other free radicals out of their system and their blood stream... combined with the fact that most muscle tears usually take about 48 hours to fully repair (depending on how torn the fibers are) an athelete could be back to ~100% in about 2 days.... doing what phelps is doing day in day out.. AND multiple times a day is insane... it really really really is insane... meanwhile, Ian Thorpe quit just in time to let Phelps shine.. he wouldn't be winning many freestyle medals if Ian was still around... shame for Australia.. congrats to Phelps... 5 medals is already monumental... I hope it doesn't go to his head
You guys don't know much about training at elite levels, eh? Ever heard of the term "peaking" that they throw around a lot?
Basically, Phelps is swimming crazy program no doubt. But the past year has been all programmed right (all his swimming volume and training sessions) have been geared towards peaking for this one event (as were his world championships). If you look at his medals, you'll see that he does maybe one competition a year.
Here's an analogy with weightlifting that is applicable to training periodization. For example, in a basic (1970s-1980s) Soviet style periodization scheme that is designed to increase the amount of weight lifting for elite weightlifters, the athletes themselves undergo generally ~6 week mesocycles which are comprised of about 6 microcycles. The first week or two is geared towards higher volume to get conditioning level up, the week or so is geared towards hypertrophy, the next couple weeks are involve with strength and power development. At the end, there is a rest week taper/peak when SUPERCOMPENSATION occurs (which occurs as the body eliminates built up fatigue from training). These mesocycles can be built up into 6+ sections to form macrocycles which lead up to competitions where the athletes will taper/peak significantly so that they perform exceedingly well (usually bust up personal/world/etc. records).
In any case, the program which Phelps is swimming is extremely rigorous. I'm suprised he still has the capacity but as the few documentaries show he IS eating enough (like 8-10k calories) which sustains his body's need for energy. Plus, he is still peaking from a probably *much more rigorous training* than what he is doing now.
I saw something earlier about muscle tears and 48 hours. Yeah, that's kinda of a load of crap. While muscle tears do take a bit to heal, Phelps is not swimming a program where significant muscle tearing will occur. Eccentric movements tend to create microtears in the muscles; Phelps does very little explosive eccentric movements (unlike track and field athletes). In fact, if you look at Olympic Weightlifting Bulgarian style training method you'll see that they often train 2-3 times or MORE per day 6 days per week for strength/power. So in all likelyhood he's not actually tearing many if at all muscle fibers; THUS, the only thing he has to recover is metabolically from oxygen deficit (aka lactic acid buildup -- which is not the cause of muscular acidosis by the way).
And recovering metabolically is where his cooldown and warmup times come in as well as getting enough calories to fuel the body. This is in place. And therefore he is swimming extremely well all the time.
Combine that with the Speedo LZR suit, the CUBE pool (wider & deeper = less waves = less the athletes have to fight against choppiness) and Phelp's peaking for this Olympics... expect TONS of world records. In fact, if you look at his program for last years world champs you'll see he did the same exact thing (7 gold -- his relay team for 400 medley relay got DQed and he got like 5 WR). But even then, that was just buildup to this year (as he probably wasn't at as big of a peak last year). All of these past 4 years of training and competitions since Athens has been designed towards this Olympics. That's why his "peaking" this time around is so much more dominant.
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god those still crack me up
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not overrated just overdrugged.rich countrys like US have the money to research the drugs that cant be shown on the tests.Maybe a few years later we will be shocked when they prove us what really happened here in Beijing.Just exactly with the 6 time champion tour the france biker. When i was a kid the summer olympic (in my mind) was a clear fairplay event,sad thing it tourned out the way it is nowdays
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Wow...
I wonder if there will come a time where great athletes have to "not do their best" just so that they won't be accused of being drugged.
This is silly... like that one poster said, whatever happened to "innocent till proven guilty"
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That was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
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On August 15 2008 18:54 pokerface wrote:not overrated just overdrugged.rich countrys like US have the money to research the drugs that cant be shown on the tests.Maybe a few years later we will be shocked when they prove us what really happened here in Beijing.Just exactly with the 6 time champion tour the france biker. When i was a kid the summer olympic (in my mind) was a clear fairplay event,sad thing it tourned out the way it is nowdays 
wow
So, he opted in to a much much much stricter anti doping program that will keep his blood on file and check it with all the tests that are developed even in the future. Why would anyone who is doping do that? He's a clean athlete with a tech edge if anything, but that doesn't stop the fact that he is just a monster swiming. And wtf man? Lance Armstrong has never nor will ever test positive for any drugs. way to slander innocent athletes douchebag.
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On August 15 2008 19:58 myrmidon2537 wrote: Wow...
I wonder if there will come a time where great athletes have to "not do their best" just so that they won't be accused of being drugged.
This is silly... like that one poster said, whatever happened to "innocent till proven guilty" tbh i think it's more just that this is an international site, and nationalist pride will always rule
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On August 15 2008 21:46 Shymon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2008 18:54 pokerface wrote:not overrated just overdrugged.rich countrys like US have the money to research the drugs that cant be shown on the tests.Maybe a few years later we will be shocked when they prove us what really happened here in Beijing.Just exactly with the 6 time champion tour the france biker. When i was a kid the summer olympic (in my mind) was a clear fairplay event,sad thing it tourned out the way it is nowdays  wow So, he opted in to a much much much stricter anti doping program that will keep his blood on file and check it with all the tests that are developed even in the future. Why would anyone who is doping do that? He's a clean athlete with a tech edge if anything, but that doesn't stop the fact that he is just a monster swiming. And wtf man? Lance Armstrong has never nor will ever test positive for any drugs. way to slander innocent athletes douchebag. the only thing Armstrong was accused of (and may have been guilty of) was blood doping, and it turned out like literally almost every single cyclist was blood doping anyway
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Sydney2287 Posts
Saw this today:
I have evidence that a character named MichaelPhelps has been farming gold. I also have proof that he is doing this in China. He's been doing it for about a week and clearly intends to keep doing it. Can anything be done to stop him?
It seems some folks have reported seeing him with 3 other characters, farming gold as a team. It is suspected that they're botting, as they all move back and forth along the same path.
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I just heard he eats like 12k calories a day.
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On August 15 2008 22:23 Bockit wrote: Saw this today:
I have evidence that a character named MichaelPhelps has been farming gold. I also have proof that he is doing this in China. He's been doing it for about a week and clearly intends to keep doing it. Can anything be done to stop him?
It seems some folks have reported seeing him with 3 other characters, farming gold as a team. It is suspected that they're botting, as they all move back and forth along the same path.
LOL Ban his account!
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6 for 6
but usa is still getting creamed by china =/
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anyone noticed that for michael phelps freestyle, his arm movement is slower than most of the other swimmers, but he gets more distance gain from those movements. I guess that proves he is not doping cuz he uses his body movement to its fullest potential instead of trying to swing his arm as fast as he can.
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Hah, I love this:
God Bless America.
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I thought we always counted that way (in the US, not rest of the world). Then again I have a shit memory so...yeah...
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United States20661 Posts
Yeah in the US we always count that way.
Kinda silly, but it's how we do it. For Winters, too.
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On August 16 2008 01:13 new_construct wrote: anyone noticed that for michael phelps freestyle, his arm movement is slower than most of the other swimmers, but he gets more distance gain from those movements. I guess that proves he is not doping cuz he uses his body movement to its fullest potential instead of trying to swing his arm as fast as he can. That doesn't prove anything, he just has a different technique than most people.
He has longer arms and bigger hands, and presumably gets a better catch than most swimmers, allowing him to really take advantage of the power and strength that he has, which also results in a slower turnover. He also has a ridiculously strong kick (not thorpedo-like, but close), which he takes full advantage of.
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United States4471 Posts
Best part is the people who don't realize it's a joke. One guy even types out a mini-essay condemning gold farming
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hahaha that thread is full of win
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screw swimming. gymnastics ftw! so awesome to watch.
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It sure is depressing seeing how cynical people have become thanks to all of our lovely, high-profile doping scandals. Not that they can be blamed.
Here we are witnessing what may be the greatest athletic display we'll ever see in our lifetimes, and all some people can say is 'd0ping obv'.
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On August 15 2008 02:56 eStoniaNBoY wrote: They are professionals. They all train all day long. It is how efficient their training is what really matters. Phelps has some physical advantages, but he isn`t a dolphin.
A quick reply, but you know better than to assume that just because someone is a 'professional', that they somehow all subscribe to an extremely elaborate training regimen. Not everyone in the NFL trains like Walter Peyton and Deion Sanders did. Not every boxer trains like Jones Jr. did. And on and on.
But as an Olympic example, let me tell you about a swimmer named Morgan Knabe. He was naturally pretty fast and has held some national records in the breaststroke. I used to get to watch this guy and how he'd prepare for an event and it was usually by showing up late for practice, getting in the pool, dogging it for a couple of laps, and then leaving to go back to bed. He made several Olympics due to his ability but routinely flamed out. He'd expect to make the finals based on previous results, but would instead bomb out before the semis.
So yeah. All I'm saying is not all pro athletes are Michael Phelps. He really does deserve everything he is getting.
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History is being made, don't be hating =P
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On August 16 2008 04:16 riotjune wrote: History is being made, don't be hating =P
Hating!? I'm Canadian and I'm cheering for Phelps!
I'm sad about Mike Brown though, our best swimmer fell to 4th place by 0.09 seconds
So close!!!
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On August 16 2008 01:25 Krowser wrote: Hah, I love this:
[ img ]
God Bless America. + Show Spoiler +Too harsh? 
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Roy Jones Jr. didn`t fight 2 times a day over 9 day span. Nor did Michael Schumacher race 2 times a day, 9 days in a row.
1% talent, 99% hard work. Claiming that Phelps is training harder than everybody else is arrogant. Like the other one`s aren`t taking is seriously.. Yeah right.
You can`t beat your biological clock. 12,000 calories, super-burgars or massive amounts of gatorade are nothing. Body needs rest. Sleeping, relaxing, taking a nap. That kind of rest.
Im not saying that he uses dope, but no need to be arrogant to other swimmers claiming that Phelps trains harder than everybody else ( how do you know that?) and gets back on track by eating 12,000 calories per day.
Hopefully Phelps isn`t watching the 2012 Olympics behind jail bars like Marion Jones atm.
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I don't understand why a swimmer would take steroids. Steroids increase muscle mass, something swimmers clearly try to keep at a minimum without sacrificing overall power. I mean I don't see how something like that could go unnoticed for a swimmer. Even if he was taking drugs it couldn't be much. How much of an advantage could it possibly give him lol?
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Michael Phelps really does have one of the hardest training schedules of any professional swimmer though. It's something like, according to his coach (who has coached him since he was a kid), he's Bob Bowman specifically targeted the Olympics as a goal since he was like 11, and he has been training for them ever since. He has never missed a practice, and currently trains like, 5 hours a day with the best swimmers in the world at Club Wolverine. He also trains with a lot of distance swimmers (Jensen and vendt come to mind), and if you've trained distance, it sucks. It'd be even worse knowing that you never swim distance, but it does wonders for your endurance.
And he does sleep a lot. Considering that he doesn't go to school and presumably doesn't have much of a job (I think he assistant coaches or something), he can pretty much sleep all the time when he isn't swimming.
And trust me, I bet he's getting a ton of sleep at Beijing. Not that I know his schedule, but he's probably spending the time in between sessions doing two things, eating, and then sleeping (and maybe shaving). That's pretty much all you do.
And only_human is kind of right. I don't really see why he would want to. If he were a sprinter or something (I mean, look at bernard, that is ripped), but looking at Michael, you're never really struck by his muscle mass as much as the definition due to not having fat.
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the korean guy won a gold medal in asian swimming history. see if you can decipher the bias.
they surprise drug tested him during practice a few times, and drug tested him 3 more times at the olympics and even right after he won.
(what? this asian guy, it's not possible, how is he winning if he didn't drug himself?) might be remniscent of (hitler: [how did that black jesse owens beat our superior aryan race?])
5 times for one player, singling him out. it tells more about the people who ordered them as well as the expectations of their cultures than it does about the athlete.
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everyone is drug tested after they win, I thought.
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I'm pretty sure almost every athlete is getting drug tested at least once a day or so.
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United States10774 Posts
Phelps even went through advanced US anti-doping process lol
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On August 16 2008 05:28 theonemephisto wrote: Michael Phelps really does have one of the hardest training schedules of any professional swimmer though.
Exactly. This is not our opinion we're throwing out there. This is documented fact put forth by trainers, coaches, and people less ignorant than us.
For the record, I too am Canadian, and as a sports fan I love watching what Phelps is doing.
And everyone is aware that he takes part in that 'project believe' thing or whatever it's called, right, like OneOther mentioned? He volunteers for a much more strict testing regimen than other athletes go through. I can understand skepticism and cynicism, but if anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Michael Phelps. Innocent until proven guilty, right?
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On August 16 2008 01:25 Krowser wrote:Hah, I love this: God Bless America. i always did my own count for the medals off points. 3 points for gold 2 for silver and one for bronze. I always thought thats the best way to go about it.
So as of now the score would be
China-95 USA-84
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On August 16 2008 08:11 InToTheWannaB wrote: i always did my own count for the medals off points. 3 points for gold 2 for silver and one for bronze. I always thought thats the best way to go about it. So as of now the score would be China-95 USA-84 China's run out of individual events that they excel in (gymnastics as an example) now the usa should pick up more golds and move into the lead :o
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michael phelps cheats in that he is a dolphin, and the rules clearly states no dolphins allowed.
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On August 16 2008 08:15 DeadVessel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2008 08:11 InToTheWannaB wrote:On August 16 2008 01:25 Krowser wrote:Hah, I love this: God Bless America. i always did my own count for the medals off points. 3 points for gold 2 for silver and one for bronze. I always thought thats the best way to go about it. So as of now the score would be China-95 USA-84 China's run out of individual events that they excel in (gymnastics as an example) now the usa should pick up more golds and move into the lead :o yeah they are not really known as a track and field powerhouse lol. Still they are good at alot of those wired littil sports.
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On August 16 2008 05:05 eStoniaNBoY wrote: Roy Jones Jr. didn`t fight 2 times a day over 9 day span. Nor did Michael Schumacher race 2 times a day, 9 days in a row.
This Schumacher comparison is just so bad, I get what you saying but please don't use him. I am sure he can race 2 times a day and 9 days in a row and each time being 2 hours as well instead of a couple of minutes. It is more to do with the money than his physical capability, I mean who the fuck will pay for all these race?
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phelps just wins at swimming. hes not the best olympian, only the best swimmer.
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12000 calories a day
jesus fucking christ
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On August 16 2008 09:04 sqwert wrote: phelps just wins at swimming. hes not the best olympian, only the best swimmer.
ORLY Mark Spitz was ONLY good at swimming nadia comaneci was ONLY good at gymnastics carl lewis was ONLY good at track and field michael jordan was ONLY good at basketball maurice green was ONLY good at running
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Show nested quote + So, he opted in to a much much much stricter anti doping program that will keep his blood on file and check it with all the tests that are developed even in the future. Why would anyone who is doping do that? He's a clean athlete with a tech edge if anything, but that doesn't stop the fact that he is just a monster swiming. And wtf man? Lance Armstrong has never nor will ever test positive for any drugs. way to slander innocent athletes douchebag.
the only thing Armstrong was accused of (and may have been guilty of) was blood doping, and it turned out like literally almost every single cyclist was blood doping anyway
I am surprised a lot of people here are thinking Lance Armstrong was not doping. Everyone was (and i am pretty sure still is) doped in the Tour de France. The Tier1 top bikers (Ulrich, ...) were convinced of doping. And Armstrong was faster than them for seven years! Seriously, how could a clean man beat some doped men? When blood doping detection was used, he did not get caught, but when he retired they were some test done on an echantillon from his blood the year *before* blood doping could be detected, and it was positive. This is not official because it was the B sample, and there is no way to do a counter-expertise (and when you see how hard Landis makes it for the Tour de France organisation to strip him from his title, you understant they wouldn't want to convince a retired myth of doping).
*BUT* before the Top Tier1 dopers were caught, the competition was tremondous, and there is no reason to think Armstrong was taking some better products than the others. Everyone was doing it, so it doesn't impact the results, and the fact he won 7 time by behing so ahead each time is a tremendous accomplishment.
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On August 16 2008 08:15 DeadVessel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2008 08:11 InToTheWannaB wrote:On August 16 2008 01:25 Krowser wrote:Hah, I love this: God Bless America. i always did my own count for the medals off points. 3 points for gold 2 for silver and one for bronze. I always thought thats the best way to go about it. So as of now the score would be China-95 USA-84 China's run out of individual events that they excel in (gymnastics as an example) now the usa should pick up more golds and move into the lead :o
Hmm, I'm not sure. Looking at the 2004 final count as a example, the US had 36 total in gold (+10 of where China is right now).
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080815.wrspeedo15/BNStory/beijing2008/
+ Show Spoiler +
Beijing's real swimming star Over the past several decades, one Olympian's pursuit of speed has gone unmatched
MATT HARTLEY
From Friday's Globe and Mail
August 15, 2008 at 3:17 AM EDT
Michael Phelps and his quest for an unprecedented eight gold medals is the talk of the Olympics, but the superstar making the biggest splash at the Water Cube in Beijing had nabbed 42 of the 48 swimming medals through Wednesday, including 15 of the 16 golds up for grabs.
Commentators can't stop talking about its effectiveness. Its detractors accuse it of cheating. One has even alleged its presence at the Games amounts to a textbook case of “technological doping.”
The real swimming star of the Beijing Olympics isn't a swimmer at all, but a swimsuit: the Speedo Fastskin LZR Racer.
The dominance of Speedo's latest revolutionary swimsuit at the Beijing Games is no aberration.
Every few years, the British brand redesigns its competitive swimsuits, and within months, world record times begin to tumble.
Since the LZR was unveiled in February, more than 60 world records have been shattered by swimmers clad in its second-skin grip.
Although the athletes using the LZR continue to sing its praises, the creation Speedo calls “the world's fastest swimsuit” was dogged by controversy from the moment it left the starting block.
Swimsuit manufacturer TYR Sport Inc. launched an antitrust lawsuit in May against Warnaco Group Inc. – the clothing maker that owns the Speedo licence in North America – over Speedo's close connection with the U.S. national swim team. The head coach, Mark Schubert, is reported to have encouraged his swimmers to switch to the LZR or risk watching the Beijing Games at home on TV.
In June, Nike agreed to let the four athletes it had signed to sponsorship deals use the Speedo suits in Beijing after the swimmers experimented with the LZR at the U.S. national championships.
It's no surprise that members of Canada's swim team also wear the LZR suit, with the team hoping to avoid being shut out from podium appearances for a second straight Olympics.
In amateur athletics, where a hundredth of a second can mean the difference between securing the lucrative sponsorship deals that come with a gold medal and the obscurity of being an also-ran, it's no surprise that the world's top swimmers are looking at Mr. Phelps's suit and deciding they want one of their own, said Loren Chiu, an associate professor of biomechanics at the University of Alberta.
“The marketing people for these companies are smart and they go after the top athletes, the gold medalists,” he said. “So someone who is finishing lower in the rankings, if they see the gold medalist wearing this new suit, they are going to want to try it out as well.”
To design the LZR, Speedo enlisted the help of NASA scientists to sculpt the company's Pulse material into a shark-like second skin that reduces the drag on a human body in the water by as much as 10 per cent. Speedo created 3-D scans of more than 400 of the world's top swimmers in an effort to determine the shape of their bodies and how best to improve their aquatic movements.
The LZR – which is expected to be made available to the general public in the fall with a price tag of about $550 (U.S.) – follows Speedo's Fastskin full-body swimsuit designs, which began appearing on pool decks in 2000. To design this new breed of swimsuits, Speedo “went underwater,” Mr. Chiu said.
“They looked at fish and sharks and tried to recreate a surface that is similar to what they would have on their skin,” he said. “It's similar to the non-stick frying pans you use to cook your eggs. If you have a smooth surface, then instead of water sticking to the suit, which would cause friction, it slides along it. With less friction, the athlete then is able to move faster.”
Speedo says the corset-like design of the suit helps streamline a swimmer's body while improving oxygen intake by as much as 5 per cent. It's also ultrasonically welded together, instead of using stitches, to make it completely seamless, further reducing drag. The LZR suits are so snug it can take an athlete 20 to 30 minutes just to wriggle into one. It's so technically advanced, it's on display in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York as part of its Superheroes: Fashion and Fantasy exhibit.
Speedo swimsuits were first developed by Alexander MacRae, a Scotsman who emigrated to Australia in 1910. The Speedo brand was born in 1928 after a staff member coined the slogan “Speed on in your Speedos” to describe the company's new Racerback swimsuit line.
The London, England-based Pentland Group took ownership of Speedo in the 1990s.
In 1970, Speedo created the first suits made from nylon/elastane, which remains the most common material used in swimwear. Two years later, Mark Spitz wore a Speedo suit while he captured seven Olympic gold medals.
Speedo has promised Mr. Phelps a $1-million bonus if he is able to match Mr. Spitz's record. It will be money well spent for Speedo, since Mr. Phelps is becoming known as the Tiger Woods of swimming and will soon be able to command Tiger-like endorsement dollars, said Alan Middleton, a marketing professor with the Schulich School of Business at York University.
“He will literally have the sponsors queuing up,” he said.
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HOLY FUCK! Michael Phelps just tied Spitz by 1/100th of a second! HOLY SHIT!
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Omg Phelps lucked out against Cavic
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I think it's safe to say Michael Phelps is not overrated.
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Poeta
Peru278 Posts
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Hahaha, even when he has no business winning he still wins. No one can beat Phelps.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
he's certainly in the pantheon. the overrated charge is basically raised against people who say that phelps dwarfs and makes irrelevant olympic greats from the past. just don't forget past greats, and have fun praising phelps. he deserves it
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Michael Phelps is amazing, still don't know how did he managed to win that one ;o
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that was so absurd i could not believe he made it with that ministroke
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Another gold medal today. This is his 7th I believe? With ANOTHER Olympic Record.
Just wow... I think he has more or the same amount of gold medals that South Korea has earned to this point.
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My personal favorite fact is a variant on what someone said here earlier:
If Michael Phelps were his own country, he would be fourth in Gold Medal count right now.
Absurd.
That said, I reeeeeeally don't know how he pulled out that last one. Seriously, even with the super-slow-mo replay, maybe it was the angle they showed it from, but I'm really not sure how he touched the wall first (That said, if the sensors or whatever they use say he did, I guess he did).
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What channels are you guys watching this? NBC, CNBC, Oline?
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United States37500 Posts
NBC here in the States.
Aren't they the only broadcasting company that have rights to the Olympics here? :O
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and blocked CANADA too. edit: need to calm myself down...
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omg, on Phelps last race I think pretty much everyone's expression was
"awww....oh wait...what? OH MY FUCKING GOD NO WAY!!!!! YESSS YESSS FUCK YES!!!!"
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On August 16 2008 14:07 new_construct wrote:and blocked CANADA too. edit: need to calm myself down...
I think you added the country tag "Canada" to yourself too after the post, to soothe things down eh ?
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On August 16 2008 14:18 Falcynn wrote: omg, on Phelps last race I think pretty much everyone's expression was
"awww....oh wait...what? OH MY FUCKING GOD NO WAY!!!!! YESSS YESSS FUCK YES!!!!"
hahaha so true..
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Poeta
Peru278 Posts
Michael Phelps 8 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On August 17 2008 12:12 Poeta wrote: Michael Phelps 8 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT WAS AMAZING:
DID YOU SEE THE ADVANTAGE HE TOOK?!
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Braavos36373 Posts
woooooooooooooooooo
phelps does ittttttt
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On August 17 2008 12:12 funkie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2008 12:12 Poeta wrote: Michael Phelps 8 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT WAS AMAZING: DID YOU SEE THE ADVANTAGE HE TOOK?! He's pretty much the reason they won that ^_^
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He IS, without him the US team would've probably finished 3rd after Australia and Japan.
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I wonder how many people watched him get 8 gold. Probably more than a billion .
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I dunno, but I'm still astonished by the great advantage he took while swimming. the US guy touched 3rd, and then Phelps, by the end of the first 50m, he already got 0.68secs from the second and 1.09? secs from the third. ;o.
HUGEEEEEE
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Phelps has as many golds as Australia.
The only countries that have more golds than Phelps are the US, China, and Germany.
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Lol nice pic lmao....
Anyways Phelps just got the last of his 8 gold medals, what a phenom. Just amazing.
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This is the only time in my life that I've ever hated being on the West Coast...damn you NBC.
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Yeah, but only 7 of them were World Records. WAY TO SUCK, MICHAEL PHELPS!! </Sarcasm>
Totally insane. It looked like the Aussie guy was catching up to Lezak on that last leg, though I guess the margin was bigger than I thought it was.
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8/8
God damn. Only thing he could have done better was to set a world record in the 100 fly.
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lol they showed footage of spitz during some of his swims swimming was SO different back then they all swam without goggles, swim caps, and with ridiculous looking swimming gear one guy's reaction time off the start was nearly a second
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On August 17 2008 13:19 KOFgokuon wrote: lol they showed footage of spitz during some of his swims swimming was SO different back then they all swam without goggles, swim caps, and with ridiculous looking swimming gear one guy's reaction time off the start was nearly a second
I know. Watching that, I'm pretty sure I could be in the Olympics. Imagine time-traveling Phelps in his dome cap and LZR going to swim with those guys.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
MICHAEL PHELPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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he definitely a monster! his 7th medal win was the most amazing. The speed of his arms are just unbelievable at the last minute.
Also, does swimming in the center of pool give those swimmers an advantage? Most of the time.. the winners are in the middle lanes. For some reason I have a feeling i read that there is less drag in the center.
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Best times from qualifers & semifinals get center lanes. As simple as that.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Wow, they showed Raven's stadium afterwards
Baltimore (his home town) had a football game vs the vikings... they told the fans, "Stay around a while, we'll put Phelps on the big screen".. after he won #8 they showed the stadium, FUCKING PACKED people were going nuts... dude when he gets back we're going to be having parades and all kinds of shit for him. Kid is set for life man.
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On August 17 2008 15:23 EvilTeletubby wrote: Wow, they showed Raven's stadium afterwards
Baltimore (his home town) had a football game vs the vikings... they told the fans, "Stay around a while, we'll put Phelps on the big screen".. after he won #8 they showed the stadium, FUCKING PACKED people were going nuts... dude when he gets back we're going to be having parades and all kinds of shit for him. Kid is set for life man.
Yeah I saw that. I had a feeling they'd do something like that, especially when I remembered they have their game at home. Hey, even though the Ravens lost, Baltimore has Phelps to cheer on!
I wish I could have been in Beijing or at M&T Bank stadium.
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He's American. Not only is he overrated, but he's doping. He also enjoys torturing kittens.
I hope they catch him with a positive test or swimming might go the way of olympic softball. The IOC has shown an admirable, aggressive stance on getting rid of sports that Americans are dominant in. Either Phelps goes, or swimming does.
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/\ why the hate???
Michael Phelps is amazing
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On August 17 2008 16:17 BrutalMenace wrote: /\ why the hate???
Michael Phelps is amazing
Sarcasm, my good sir. Phelps is our Lord and Savior.
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except, sarcasm is usually humorous, and your post was devoid of any...
8 is indeed a lucky number
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8 gold medals, and a cool million+ in just sponsor bonuses.
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On August 17 2008 14:07 artofmagic wrote: he definitely a monster! his 7th medal win was the most amazing. The speed of his arms are just unbelievable at the last minute.
Also, does swimming in the center of pool give those swimmers an advantage? Most of the time.. the winners are in the middle lanes. For some reason I have a feeling i read that there is less drag in the center.
I heard the commentators say that the outter lanes have less drag. I think they put the fastest in the center lanes because it's better for the spectators.
btw, yay for 8! GO PHELPS!
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I'm not quite sure about drag forces and which lanes have it the strongest but I always figured that being in the center lanes was advantageous because you could see all your competition, as opposed to being in one of the side lanes, for example, and not knowing whether someone on the other side was gaining on you.
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On August 13 2008 20:26 zulu_nation8 wrote: Definitely the best performer in the Olympics so far
agree
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amazing feat...8 for 8...7 WR...incredible
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Phelps is a robot sent from the future to destroy competition.
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On August 17 2008 16:58 MuShu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2008 14:07 artofmagic wrote: he definitely a monster! his 7th medal win was the most amazing. The speed of his arms are just unbelievable at the last minute.
Also, does swimming in the center of pool give those swimmers an advantage? Most of the time.. the winners are in the middle lanes. For some reason I have a feeling i read that there is less drag in the center. I heard the commentators say that the outter lanes have less drag. I think they put the fastest in the center lanes because it's better for the spectators. btw, yay for 8! GO PHELPS!
fastest qualifiers get the center lanes
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i called it michael phelps owns all
now just gotta pray that hes legit
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On August 17 2008 19:29 H_ wrote: Phelps is a robot sent from the future to destroy competition. THE FUTURE IS COMMUNIST!
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On August 17 2008 16:58 MuShu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2008 14:07 artofmagic wrote: he definitely a monster! his 7th medal win was the most amazing. The speed of his arms are just unbelievable at the last minute.
Also, does swimming in the center of pool give those swimmers an advantage? Most of the time.. the winners are in the middle lanes. For some reason I have a feeling i read that there is less drag in the center. I heard the commentators say that the outter lanes have less drag. I think they put the fastest in the center lanes because it's better for the spectators. btw, yay for 8! GO PHELPS! Most of the time the side lanes suck balls because you're next to a wall, and that creates a ton of turbulence. However, the water cube is a 10 lane pool with 8 lanes in use, so yes, the side lanes will have a bit less turbulence because they have empty water to one side. Of course, you can get some funny currents in the side lanes still because waves under the water will still bounce off the side.
However, again, yes, the center lanes give you a better view (not that it matters in a lot of events, like fly). In fact, I'd say for fly I'd prefer a lane slightly to the right of the pool, as I turn to my left, therefore I can see more of the field that way.
But yea, it's for the spectators mostly. Just like how they circle seed the heats and semis, it's to save the good races for last.
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On August 17 2008 22:55 kpcrew(Gg) wrote: i called it michael phelps owns all
now just gotta pray that hes legit
congrats, so did everyone else in the world
at any rate, i really wish that when andrea kramer interviewed phelps, that she asked him something like "what are you gonna do to celebrate" and he replied I am getting DRUNK off my ASS and hittin some hot pussy tonight!
i woulda lost it completely
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You shouldn't have a view on your competition When you play or do a sport to improve yourself, you're not even playing your competition your greatest competition is yourself and you are pushing yourself and the rest be damned
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4492 Posts
I dunno if this has already been brought up before, but does anybody else feel it sucks balls that swimmers can win a shitload of medals, while judokas, fencers, road racers etc can pretty much only get 1, 2 tops. Why does it give the swimmers a "league of their own" to outperform every other athlete in terms of medal count by doing almost the same thing 8 times?
And this is not even mentioning the LZR Racer suits...
Meh.
Go Nadal, you worked more than Phelps. :/
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Wow, to say Nadal has worked more or harder than Phelps is pretty fucking ignorant.
I was just saying the same thing about how it sucks that the US basketball team will play so many games to only win one medal the other night, but you can't blame that on Phelps.
Any top athlete in another sport will still say that Phelps is one of the greatest athletes of all time. (I'd bet that includes Nadal)
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4492 Posts
The Spanish wouldn't...
Oh, and who the hell is blaming it on Phelps? I'm blaming the system.
Another thing is your team sports. You mean to say that everyone in that basketball team works the same amount to get that medal? You mean to say that the guy in baseball that sits behind the enemy and catches balls thrown by his partner does the same amount of work as Nadal, Phelps or whatever other athlete actually moving around?
The system sucks. Everyone should have equal opportunities to be measured with other athletes, otherwise fanboys like you will start thinking Phelps is somehow "the best human in the world" or some similar shit.
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On August 18 2008 02:40 MYM.Testie wrote: You shouldn't have a view on your competition When you play or do a sport to improve yourself, you're not even playing your competition your greatest competition is yourself and you are pushing yourself and the rest be damned
Except when you're going for 8 golds and you have to qualify for every single one of them, you really want to be able to 'pace' yourself (if you can even call it pacing for Phelps) so your body can perform at its peak only when it really needs to. If he went all out in all the qualifiers he probably would not have won 8 golds, seeing as how I'm sure it would slow him down at least .01 in that 100m butterfly.
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On August 18 2008 03:21 Mynock wrote: The Spanish wouldn't...
Oh, and who the hell is blaming it on Phelps? I'm blaming the system.
Another thing is your team sports. You mean to say that everyone in that basketball team works the same amount to get that medal? You mean to say that the guy in basketball that sits behind the enemy and catches balls thrown by his partner does the same amount of work as Nadal, Phelps or whatever other athlete actually moving around?
The system sucks. Everyone should have equal opportunities to be measured with other athletes, otherwise fanboys like you will start thinking Phelps is somehow "the best human in the world" or some similar shit.
I agree that the system is messed up, and you make a good point. However, don't even try to label me as a 'Phelps fanboy' to discredit me. I wouldn't call myself a fan of Phelps, but I used to swim competitively so I know exactly how incredible of a feat he has just performed.
How would you like it if I had never played competitive tennis before (played that too - I actually like Nadal) but said that Nadal wouldn't deserve more than one gold anyways because it's not that hard of a sport compared to soccer or something while calling you a Nadal fanboy.
You'd think I was a bit ignorant, wouldn't you?
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8748 Posts
I think it sucks that non-swimmers don't get as great a challenge as the swimmers, but the swimmers still deserve the extra praise that they receive. And as far as relative training goes, and who works harder, etc, I think the bottom line is that 90% of the olympians are dedicating their lives to their sports and are doing everything they can, so they all deserve equal praise. But, if anything, swimmers train harder than most. Since they are doing a non-impact sport, their injury to training volume ratio is much much smaller than basically every other sport out there. Therefore they can train longer hours.
I'm trying to imagine how to stage the challenge Phelps faced but for other sports. The athlete would have to have a best-in-the-world performance 6+ times (and he'd have to do it against an entire field at once, like in track, and not just one at a time, like in tennis). He'd have to be competing against well-rested people when he has just competed hours (or less) before the event. He'd have to have a wide variety of skills (the different strokes) even though he is facing specialists. I also imagine there are a lot of smaller mental things that Phelps uniquely faced that other olympians have not had to experience... etc etc
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4492 Posts
It would, but seeing as how I didn't even attack Phelps I don't see why you jumped in there in defense. I merely said that I didn't like the system that way. That little remark of mine at the end was not even meant too seriously, and if it would make you feel better - I retract it.
The point stands however - if the swimmers had 24 events during the Olympiad, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them, merely because he is a great swimmer. That doesn't deserve a special praise for him, because everybody else would also enter those events and be equally tired, and in a difficult position. The breaking of the world records on itself also isn't enough, because due to the new Speedo suits everybody is breaking those records left and right.
The point is - things aren't objective at the time, so no matter how you look at it - you just can't crown a "top athlete" objectively.
Phelps is a damn good athlete tho, and absolutely no doubt he's the best swimmer ATM. But that's it.
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I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but I just want to clarify something. If there were 24 swimming events, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them if he entered in all of them - but you seem to think that all of Phelps's competition are swimming as many events as him. I haven't personally looked into it, but I'm pretty sure no one else in the Olympics swam close to 8 events, so he indeed was at a disadvantage in terms of fatigue and was still able to get all those golds.
I still agree that breaking the world records don't mean quite as much because of the water cube and the new swimming suits, but the thing I want to clarify here is what he is doing relative to the other best swimmers in the world. You should always judge an athlete by comparing him to his peers - everyone knows athletes today are superior to athletes 20 years ago, so the important thing to look at is how dominant one is against his peers. So yes, I agree the world records have lost some meaning in this Olympics, but you can't ignore the dominance Phelps has shown against his peers.
to put it in perspective, it would be unlikely for you to see this kind of dominance in any single sport more than once in your lifetime.
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yes he is, well maybe not overrated (because he is winning everything) but I don't like the guy. He's all deformed and stuff and he beat some poor czech guy yesterday in the 100M butterfly by like .01 of a second. Let someone else win, didn't his mother teach him to share?
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On August 18 2008 03:42 Mynock wrote: It would, but seeing as how I didn't even attack Phelps I don't see why you jumped in there in defense. I merely said that I didn't like the system that way. That little remark of mine at the end was not even meant too seriously, and if it would make you feel better - I retract it.
The point stands however - if the swimmers had 24 events during the Olympiad, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them, merely because he is a great swimmer. That doesn't deserve a special praise for him, because everybody else would also enter those events and be equally tired, and in a difficult position. The breaking of the world records on itself also isn't enough, because due to the new Speedo suits everybody is breaking those records left and right.
The point is - things aren't objective at the time, so no matter how you look at it - you just can't crown a "top athlete" objectively.
Phelps is a damn good athlete tho, and absolutely no doubt he's the best swimmer ATM. But that's it. Everybody else is not entering those events on the same level though. Phelps was swimming 3-6x as many races as other people, and his races encompassed what I'd consider the spectrum of the hardest available (400 IM, 200 fly, only missing the mile). And then in each of his races, he's racing people like Ian Crocker or Cavic, who swim 4-6 races over the meet. 3 races a day for an extended period of time is HARD. And the field is absolutely amazing.
It'd be something like if Nadal was playing in 3 different tournaments that all happened to be going on at the same time. He may be better than all the competition when evenly matched up, but he's not going to be able to go into each match at top-level just due to the sheer amount of stuff he's doing while his opponents are going to be much more rested and prepared.
Or, in Starcraft terms, it's like Flash carrying his proleague team and being in 3 leagues. We all knew Flash was better than (almost) everyone else on paper, but he's going to be playing much more rested and prepared players while suffering from overuse and fatigue (and we all know how that turned out)
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4492 Posts
On August 18 2008 03:59 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 03:42 Mynock wrote: It would, but seeing as how I didn't even attack Phelps I don't see why you jumped in there in defense. I merely said that I didn't like the system that way. That little remark of mine at the end was not even meant too seriously, and if it would make you feel better - I retract it.
The point stands however - if the swimmers had 24 events during the Olympiad, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them, merely because he is a great swimmer. That doesn't deserve a special praise for him, because everybody else would also enter those events and be equally tired, and in a difficult position. The breaking of the world records on itself also isn't enough, because due to the new Speedo suits everybody is breaking those records left and right.
The point is - things aren't objective at the time, so no matter how you look at it - you just can't crown a "top athlete" objectively.
Phelps is a damn good athlete tho, and absolutely no doubt he's the best swimmer ATM. But that's it. Everybody else is not entering those events on the same level though. Phelps was swimming 3-6x as many races as other people, and his races encompassed what I'd consider the spectrum of the hardest available (400 IM, 200 fly, only missing the mile). And then in each of his races, he's racing people like Ian Crocker or Cavic, who swim 4-6 races over the meet. 3 races a day for an extended period of time is HARD. And the field is absolutely amazing. It'd be something like if Nadal was playing in 3 different tournaments that all happened to be going on at the same time. He may be better than all the competition when evenly matched up, but he's not going to be able to go into each match at top-level just due to the sheer amount of stuff he's doing while his opponents are going to be much more rested and prepared. Or, in Starcraft terms, it's like Flash carrying his proleague team and being in 3 leagues. We all knew Flash was better than (almost) everyone else on paper, but he's going to be playing much more rested and prepared players while suffering from overuse and fatigue (and we all know how that turned out)
Again, I'm not arguing that either. He's a hell of a swimmer, really head and shoulders above the competition in water. It's just when I see people saying he's the best athlete of all times based off his medal count is... misguided I think.
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Well, I agree that it may be a bit off. I mean, it's a ridiculously subjective idea. It isn't too much of a stretch to say that Phelps is the best swimmer of all time (somewhat debatable), less to say that Phelps is the best all-around swimmer of all time, but best athlete does mean making a lot of comparisons across sports that aren't really comparable.
The medal count is just a result of the nature of the sport. Swimming's a sport that lends itself to a lot of events, due to the different strokes, lengths, and relays, and Phelps really took advantage of that, not only specializing in a stroke + freestyle (which many people do), but also adding in a great IM.
However, I have to say that it isn't that bad, as long as you acknowledge the other contenders. I mean, I think it's fair to say that Phelps is certainly ONE of the best athletes of all time, contending with a relatively small number of people for that spot, and really, once you get there it's all subjective. People saying that he's the best of all time is personal opinion, and as long as they don't forget the other contenders and don't try to make it some sort of unequivocal fact, then whatever.
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On August 17 2008 19:30 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2008 16:58 MuShu wrote:On August 17 2008 14:07 artofmagic wrote: he definitely a monster! his 7th medal win was the most amazing. The speed of his arms are just unbelievable at the last minute.
Also, does swimming in the center of pool give those swimmers an advantage? Most of the time.. the winners are in the middle lanes. For some reason I have a feeling i read that there is less drag in the center. I heard the commentators say that the outter lanes have less drag. I think they put the fastest in the center lanes because it's better for the spectators. btw, yay for 8! GO PHELPS! fastest qualifiers get the center lanes Well, of course the spectators want to see the faster swimmers.
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United States10328 Posts
fastest qualifiers get center lanes because there is less wave disturbance + others can draft off them 
but DAMN, PHELPS IS A BEAST
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Canada5062 Posts
On August 18 2008 03:52 ploy wrote: I agree with pretty much everything you just said, but I just want to clarify something. If there were 24 swimming events, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them if he entered in all of them - but you seem to think that all of Phelps's competition are swimming as many events as him. I haven't personally looked into it, but I'm pretty sure no one else in the Olympics swam close to 8 events, so he indeed was at a disadvantage in terms of fatigue and was still able to get all those golds.
I still agree that breaking the world records don't mean quite as much because of the water cube and the new swimming suits, but the thing I want to clarify here is what he is doing relative to the other best swimmers in the world. You should always judge an athlete by comparing him to his peers - everyone knows athletes today are superior to athletes 20 years ago, so the important thing to look at is how dominant one is against his peers. So yes, I agree the world records have lost some meaning in this Olympics, but you can't ignore the dominance Phelps has shown against his peers.
to put it in perspective, it would be unlikely for you to see this kind of dominance in any single sport more than once in your lifetime.
Oh, please. Spitz, Biondi, Thorpe, and a host of East German fraulein swimmers I can't remember all showed similar levels of individual dominance in the water. And that's not even close to a "lifetime" - just the past 36 years. The only difference I can see is that Phelps had a stronger supporting cast who took him over the top.
Is Phelps "overrated"? NO. How can he be overrated as a swimmer? He just ran the tables in the water, did he not? He is obviously the best swimmer of his generation. Nothing more, nothing less.
But, all this nauseating hyperbole surrounding Phelps is making me turn the fucking channel every time I see that fucking Pilsbury Dough Boy lookalike of an NBC announcer Bob Costas intoning in the sincerest baritone imaginable about how Phelps deserves to be perhaps the greatest Olympian ever. Hey Costas, get a clue - very few put Spitz in that category and very few outside of a those in the US media would do the same for Phelps in 30 years time. Lewis, Nurmi, Zapotek, Owen were all greater, MUCH greater. The reasons are too obvious to even mention here.
Besides, how many fucking medals deserve to be doled out at the Olympics for a competition like swimming anyway? How many of you Phelps fan boys actually even know how many ridiculous different kinds of race categories the USA has managed to force on Olympic swimming in the past half century? The most ridiculous of all: the 50m dive and dash. What's next? Oh, I know: the 50 freestyle relay. And then the 50m butterfly, then the 50m butterfly relay, and then the 50m medley. I can't believe this shit.
If Starcraft somehow became an Olympic sport and the Koreans managed to lobby all sorts of contrived different categories for the fucking game, how many of you would actually put Boxer or whichever fucking Korean happens to run the tables to be amongst the greatest Olympians ever? How legitimate is the medal count when you have categories like mens and womens singles/doubles/triples/quadruples, mixed doubles/triples/quadruples, team v team, same race v same race (i.e. TvT, ZvZ and PvP) for each of mens and womens singles/doubles/triples/quadruples, same race v same race for each of mixed doubles/triples/quadruples, fastest victories (like a time trial in cycling) versus specially designed "Olympic" AI in each of mens and womens singles/doubles/triples/quadruples and in each of mixed doubles/triples/quadruples, fastest sustained APM (again like a time trial) while playing a game versus "Olympic AI" for each of mens and womens singles/doubles/triples/quadruples and each of mixed doubles/triples/quadruples and each of T, Z and P, etc. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.
Just fucking shut up, all of you.
EDIT: Fuck me. Forgot the all important "random" race categories - random mens and womens singles/doubles/triples/quadruples, random mixed doubles/triples/quadruples, random ...
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On August 18 2008 03:10 Mynock wrote: I dunno if this has already been brought up before, but does anybody else feel it sucks balls that swimmers can win a shitload of medals, while judokas, fencers, road racers etc can pretty much only get 1, 2 tops. Why does it give the swimmers a "league of their own" to outperform every other athlete in terms of medal count by doing almost the same thing 8 times?
Track is the same way. There's races for 100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, etc. Swimming also has 4 different strokes, and each take a considerable amount of difficulty to master. Phelps and Spitz primarily competed in the freestyle and fly. Of course they are limited by the number of races they can handle within their schedule but also they aren't the best in these other strokes. Some people are faster off the block and good sprinters for the 50m freestyle, others are better closers. Other races require more endurance like the 1500. I doubt Phelps would dominate the breastroke against Kitajima or the backstroke against Peirsol, etc. Of the 13 individual races, 8 different people won gold medals, so it's not exactly like everybody gets a ton of medals.
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Braavos36373 Posts
i bet mensrea was reading phelps replies and comments for a full week and it slowly built up to the point where he threw his hands up and raged that response out rofl
hey mensrea, i think phelps is not only the greatest athlete of all time, but possibly the greatest human of all time too, narrowly beating out jesus by .01 seconds
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Austin10831 Posts
I bet Jesus wishes he'd had that wingspan.
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4492 Posts
Hehe, for further reference, refer to rea's post.
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4492 Posts
Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story.
ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?!
You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints.
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hard to argue for speed walking lol
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4492 Posts
On August 18 2008 15:59 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story. ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?! You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints.
Yeah, what about it? Or are you suggesting there should be obstacles in swimming? Why not indeed. Why not also add swimming-shooting? Swimming relay-obstacle-shooting? Everything men-women of course.
Yeah, track could do with simplifying as well, but no other events need it as much as swimming.
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4492 Posts
As my friend put it a few days ago:
"WHAT? Every time I turn that damn thing on, they're still in that fucking pool!"
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why did thorpe quit ? amazing performance by phelps, i dont understand how his body could manage it...would be a shame of he turned out doped like many others who were perhaps too good to be true
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United States4471 Posts
It does appear to me that swimmers have quite a huge advantage when it comes to the number of medals they can win for their sport. Most Olympians don't have the chance to get more than a few medals, even if they wanted to, and so it's a bit unfair to compare Phelps to the top athletes in other sports. Whether this comparative ease and opportunity is enough to make Phelps "overrated" or "the greatest Olympian ever" is open for debate, but here's some information talking about the differences between swimming and track (the other sport with potential for a lot of medals).
Article about whether Phelps is the "greatest Olympian ever" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/sports/olympics/15longman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Excerpts:
It is much easier to win multiple medals in sports like swimming and gymnastics than in track and field, because there are more individual events. And fewer countries produce elite swimmers than runners, making track a more democratic sport.
Runners compete vertically. They pound their bodies harder, and must work their hearts and muscles harder, than swimmers, who compete horizontally.
Swimmers recover quicker and, during major international competitions, generally compete in fewer rounds than runners.
Article about all the world records being broke in swimming: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/11/sports/olyrecords.php?page=2
Excerpts:
"The nature of swimming also allows athletes to perform in more events than, say, track, providing more opportunities for stars to set world records. Sprinters in swimming tend to train much longer distances than sprinters in track, gaining superior aerobic capacity. They also perform in a horizontal position, which allows easier circulation of oxygen and nutrients through the blood, and they don't pound their muscles, tendons and ligaments, thus gaining quicker recovery. At international competitions, swimmers also generally participate in fewer rounds than track sprinters, which can leave them fresher for event finals."
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On August 18 2008 15:59 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story. ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?! You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints.
In the olympics, yes, there shouldn't be hurdling...
The point is that you shouldn't have 30-40 gold medal events in track and swimming and then have 2 or 3 for a whole bunch of other sports. Track and swimming aren't 10x more important.
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swimming is competitive, but nowhere near as competitive as running. it costs a lot of $$$ to be able to train competitively in swimming so the number of people who enter the sport is limited. you need expert stroke teachers, and constant access to high quality pools + equipment to become an elite swimmer.
as opposed to running, where you need to be born with 2 feet.
what phelps did is amazing, but it is simply ridiculous to even think that his accomplish "dwarfs" those of the greatest track & field legends.
with as little bias as possible, I can confidently say that track events are the most competitive sporting events in the world today. more competitive than soccer, basketball, swimming, or anything else.
this is due to the simple fact that any and all human beings are eligible to compete. running requires less "skill" and involves less luck than any other sport. it is a simple test of willpower and physical ability. you can argue that running form is a "skill," but any competant running coach will tell you to draw from your natural stride. there is no money or location barrier in running. elite runners have come from every part of the world (even china has produced world record runners). the greatest distance runner of all time (haile gebrselassie) came out of a fucking tribal village, and trained his endurance as a child by running to school every day (a 12+ mile round trip).
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Track started the fucking Olympics.
It is more important. Deal with it.
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haha phelps is clearly not the "best" athlete ever thats for sure even with all his counts and stuff but I would just agree he is the best olympian ever to have won more gold medals period. The best athelete should only be separated on the basis of which category of sports you play in and not just sports overall. But nothing is more important than another sport i.e blackJack saying that track started the olympics so its more important...what the hell
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All sports are important, it's the amount of dominant success that labels a person "greatest". Look at Ali in boxing, his dominant boxing career achieved sucess. I can mention many other people but it's more important to acknowledge their brutal sucess compared to others. Michael Phelps clearly blow everyone out of the water and broke many records while doing so.
Edit: it's the sport that they excel at, and not in general with other sport comparing one another. Michael Phelps greastest swimmer ever.
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OMFG greatest images ever
LOL
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he is a mutant and should be banned from the olympics
has anyone checked him for gills yet?!
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On August 18 2008 17:31 mindspike wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 15:59 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story. ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?! You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints. In the olympics, yes, there shouldn't be hurdling... The point is that you shouldn't have 30-40 gold medal events in track and swimming and then have 2 or 3 for a whole bunch of other sports. Track and swimming aren't 10x more important. Orrrrr you just shouldn't rank by medal count, since no matter what, some will mean much more than others.
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On August 19 2008 03:47 Gaetele wrote: rofl@ 5dollar footlong
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On August 18 2008 03:42 Mynock wrote: The point stands however - if the swimmers had 24 events during the Olympiad, Phelps would have a chance to win all of them, merely because he is a great swimmer.
I don't really agree with this line of thinking. How many swimmers do you see competing in multiple strokes? Fact is that most specialize in one (maybe over a couple of different distances) and stick to those races. My way of thinking is that Phelps being the best in the world at so many swimming disciplines only makes him that much more impressive of an athlete. I know, there are tons of swimming events and all that. But most people considered great swimmers win like 2 medals because they're backstroke specialists, or spring specialists, or distance specialists, etc.
It's not the best comparison, but maybe we can look at it as if a sprinter ran the 100, the 200, the relays, and also did 'different' sprint types such as hurdles. I dunno, bad comparison but I'm sure you see what I'm trying to say.
They have the possibility of winning more medals, but no one has ever done it until now. That has to mean something =P
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When Sullivan broke the 50m record I created topic because I was suspicious of doping.
Well, now I'm just fucking convinced that something not-technique-related improving their speeds *A LOT*. Probably that LZR cloth + x + y + z. Because its virtually impossible that in only 3 years all the top 50m swimmers can swim under a record that lasted for 16 fucking years.
It was like almost no one could swim under 21'90 until 2006. Then, after 2006, Sullivan swimmed the distance at below 21'60, and after that. MANY OTHERS swimmers did too. I can't just believe its technique improving. During many many years the top of the top swimmed at 22'00 or 21'80ish. Now in just acouple years 22'00 became a really really bad time, you cant ever dream about getting a medal with that.
Its like if all the top100m racers started running 9'50 all out of a sudden, sick.
btw, Michael Phelps rock, he is a legend, he is the best and most representative swimmer of all time. We are just not very aware of that because he just did it in front of our eyes. We will realize how fucking bizarre it is when we see the top swimmer of the olympics winning 3 golds and 1 bronze.
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those who say Phelps is the best athlete of all time have a HUGE point. He doesnt lose since 2003. He has dominated all his 'single' events for 5 years now. If you take a look at 200m butterfly, he doesnt lose that since 2001. Swimming is not just the olympics, every two years Phelps swims at the world championships and he doesnt lose there too.
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On August 18 2008 16:10 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 15:59 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story. ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?! You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints. Yeah, what about it? Or are you suggesting there should be obstacles in swimming? Why not indeed. Why not also add swimming-shooting? Swimming relay-obstacle-shooting? Everything men-women of course. Yeah, track could do with simplifying as well, but no other events need it as much as swimming. DUNE ARGUMENT!
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On August 19 2008 03:47 Gaetele wrote: lol, that's way longer than a foot
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4492 Posts
On August 19 2008 08:08 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 16:10 Mynock wrote:On August 18 2008 15:59 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 18 2008 15:55 Mynock wrote: Besides, I never got it why there have to be differentiations by strokes anyway. If you're a swimmer, all you have to do is get from point A to point B in fastest way possible. What stroke you choose to accomplish this is up to you.
For a comparison, imagine running having 4 different steps involved. Jumping on one leg, fast run, crawl on knees, and the - even now present, ridiculous event - walking -_-
It's clearly bullshit. As is baseball, but that's another story. ahh, swimming ignorance. Why not just have one track event, point A to B and be done with it as well? What's with all this running, hurdling, steeple racing nonsense?! You're oversimplifying it so much that it makes it sound like swimming and track should be just freestyle and sprints. Yeah, what about it? Or are you suggesting there should be obstacles in swimming? Why not indeed. Why not also add swimming-shooting? Swimming relay-obstacle-shooting? Everything men-women of course. Yeah, track could do with simplifying as well, but no other events need it as much as swimming. DUNE ARGUMENT!
Uhh, no. The Dune argument would be a suggestion to return to the 1896 Olympics, with 9 events (Athletics, Cycling, Fencing, Gymnastics, Shooting, Swimming, Tennis, Weightlifting, Wrestling), or better yet, to the first Ancient Olympics, with 1 single event of sprint.
However, what I'm saying is, some sporting events really do need to get a boot, and they will (no wonder there will be no more baseball and softball at the Olympics starting 2012). But more have to go, and other means have to be implemented in order to make the Olympics less of a commercial venue, and more of a sports competition.
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Braavos36373 Posts
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Mensrea, do you do anything competitive? The delineations of 50 meters, 100 meters, 200 meter etc events help us quantify individual athletic abilities and distinguish the absolute best at a given, predetermined set of parameters - just like any sport. Swimming different strokes at 50 meters is no less ridiculous than bouncing a brown ball on a hardwood court with 9 other people trying to aim at a net. Its just the nature of the game.
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Actually I had an idea:
Why not have a swimming version of a decathalon? The "ultimate swimmer" category could be decided pretty easily.
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On August 19 2008 09:05 Hot_Bid wrote: whats a "dune argument"
i think it's the "simpler is better" argument, back to the basics
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On August 19 2008 09:24 fig_newbie wrote: Actually I had an idea:
Why not have a swimming version of a decathalon? The "ultimate swimmer" category could be decided pretty easily.
They have medleys...
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Poeta
Peru278 Posts
Firts win of Michael Phelps
Regarts
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Poeta
Peru278 Posts
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Lol@pic.... hes pretty amazing i think some other atheletes could get close to this ammount if there were more races they competed in, that jamacian who won the 100 meter sprint........ wow........ he set a record and let up to celebrate with like 15 meters left.
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On August 19 2008 10:57 likeaboss wrote: Lol@pic.... hes pretty amazing i think some other atheletes could get close to this ammount if there were more races they competed in, that jamacian who won the 100 meter sprint........ wow........ he set a record and let up to celebrate with like 15 meters left.
You mean the incredible Usain "Lighting" Bolt. Not sure on spelling of his first name.
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On August 19 2008 10:30 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 09:24 fig_newbie wrote: Actually I had an idea:
Why not have a swimming version of a decathalon? The "ultimate swimmer" category could be decided pretty easily. They have medleys...
I know, and I dont mean to say that my suggestion is in any way unique. Maybe a swimming decathalon is a bad title for what I'm thinking. How about "aquatic decathalon"?
The point was to have a preset swimming regimen for those so inclined, say ranging from 50 meter swims to 800 meters, which would include all varieties of strokes and also include medleys. How about 50 meter freestyle, 100 meter freestyle and medleys of 1500 meters? (blah the more I type it out the sillier it seems. how fucking boring would it be to do all that and earn only one medal? Maybe adding a diving routine would also be neat. whatever I'm rambling. )
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On August 19 2008 11:01 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 10:57 likeaboss wrote: Lol@pic.... hes pretty amazing i think some other atheletes could get close to this ammount if there were more races they competed in, that jamacian who won the 100 meter sprint........ wow........ he set a record and let up to celebrate with like 15 meters left. You mean the incredible Usain "Lighting" Bolt. Not sure on spelling of his first name.
You mean... the great "Lightning" Bolt that set the WR . . . with his shoes untied
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United States17042 Posts
On August 19 2008 11:03 fig_newbie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 10:30 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:On August 19 2008 09:24 fig_newbie wrote: Actually I had an idea:
Why not have a swimming version of a decathalon? The "ultimate swimmer" category could be decided pretty easily. They have medleys... I know, and I dont mean to say that my suggestion is in any way unique. Maybe a swimming decathalon is a bad title for what I'm thinking. How about "aquatic decathalon"? The point was to have a preset swimming regimen for those so inclined, say ranging from 50 meter swims to 800 meters, which would include all varieties of strokes and also include medleys. How about 50 meter freestyle, 100 meter freestyle and medleys of 1500 meters? (blah the more I type it out the sillier it seems. how fucking boring would it be to do all that and earn only one medal? Maybe adding a diving routine would also be neat. whatever I'm rambling. )
The 200 IM and the 400 IM require you do to every stroke.
If I remember correctly, the original point behind the decathlon was that you were supposed to compete in the same skills that a soldier would use in world war I. You can almost see that in the events, and you can see how that would be useful. There is no real equal to that in swimming because historically you only need to compete in a single event (and not 5 events strung together).
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Or instead of simplifying Track and Swimming, we can make it more "fair" by adding other events for other sports. Let's have a slam dunk contest for a gold medal. Or a 3 point shootout for a gold medal. Why does Phelps get 8 when Kobe can't even get 2? Kobe is ten times the athlete Phelps could ever dream to be and he probably trains ten times as much too
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maybe masturbating should be in the olympics
is there like a porn olympics or something? I would be surprised if there wasn't
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On August 19 2008 12:25 BlackJack wrote: Or instead of simplifying Track and Swimming, we can make it more "fair" by adding other events for other sports. Let's have a slam dunk contest for a gold medal. Or a 3 point shootout for a gold medal. Why does Phelps get 8 when Kobe can't even get 2? Kobe is ten times the athlete Phelps could ever dream to be and he probably trains ten times as much too
WHAT?
And you came to this conclusion by closely reviewing both their training regimes?
Friend, swimmers swim several hours a day EVERY day... they also do it for a sport that gives very little reward for the effort (unless you're a Thorpe or a Phelps)... Kobe doesn't have HALF the drive and determination that Phelps does.
So, you're saying Kobe would win more medals if, say, there was a slam dunk contest?
2008 (New Orleans) - Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic 2007 (Las Vegas) - Gerald Green, Boston Celtics 2006 (Houston) - Nate Robinson, New York Knicks 2005 (Denver) - Josh Smith, Atlanta Hawks 2004 (Los Angeles) - Fred Jones, Indiana Pacers 2003 (Atlanta) - Jason Richardson, Golden State Warriors ..............
awwww... looks like Kobe WOULDN'T be getting gold. Why? He's doesn't have the best slam dunk.. nor the best 3 point shot.. nor... wait.. NOR IS HE ONE PLAYER! He is one of many... OH THAT'S RIGHT... He plays a TEAM sport... and even if he did play shit he'd still get a medal... is that fair? Is it fair that Michael Phelps should train 4 years all day every day and get a silver and some bench warmer for the U.S.A. team should get a gold just for being selected?
You see my point.... there's a distinct difference between what Phelps does and what Kobe does.. distinct and cavernous difference!
P.S. Kobe is a brilliant player
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Yeah hes a fucking awesome swimmer why would anyone question it. Like right now it seems him vs anyone in any swimming event he whip. Now hes awesome as long as he isn't found out hes been using a performance enchaining drug else he just awesome shit. Although i don't really like swimming events i prefer track and field.
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On August 19 2008 10:46 Poeta wrote:Firts win of Michael Phelps Regarts  Rofl
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On August 19 2008 11:34 waterdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2008 11:03 fig_newbie wrote:On August 19 2008 10:30 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:On August 19 2008 09:24 fig_newbie wrote: Actually I had an idea:
Why not have a swimming version of a decathalon? The "ultimate swimmer" category could be decided pretty easily. They have medleys... I know, and I dont mean to say that my suggestion is in any way unique. Maybe a swimming decathalon is a bad title for what I'm thinking. How about "aquatic decathalon"? The point was to have a preset swimming regimen for those so inclined, say ranging from 50 meter swims to 800 meters, which would include all varieties of strokes and also include medleys. How about 50 meter freestyle, 100 meter freestyle and medleys of 1500 meters? (blah the more I type it out the sillier it seems. how fucking boring would it be to do all that and earn only one medal? Maybe adding a diving routine would also be neat. whatever I'm rambling. ) The 200 IM and the 400 IM require you do to every stroke. If I remember correctly, the original point behind the decathlon was that you were supposed to compete in the same skills that a soldier would use in world war I. You can almost see that in the events, and you can see how that would be useful. There is no real equal to that in swimming because historically you only need to compete in a single event (and not 5 events strung together).
Im wording this little nugget of an idea very poorly so I'll try to explain it better.
The events wouldnt need to be strung together in one sitting necessarily - theres no reason not to have them over the course of two days. The purpose would be to see who has the best balance of aquatic disciplines, from strokes to endurance to raw speed and agility, similar to how a decathalete goes through different disciplines of track events (100 and mile etc). I cant really see how it would be feasible to have this amalgam in modern times though - I dont think too many peopel would be interested in participating in it anyways.
Also, I have no clue how you got the idea that decathalons were based on WWI soldier skill sets. It predates WWI..
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Andrei Aramnau of Belarus has broken three world records on the way to winning the men's 105kg weightlifting gold medal at the Beijing Olympics.
The 20-year-old world champion reset all records in the weight class with a snatch lift of 200kg, a clean and jerk effort of 236kg, and a total lift of 436kg.
Former world champion Dmitry Klokov of Russia won the silver medal with a total effort of 420kg.
A second Russian, Dmitry Lapikov, also lifted 420kg but got the bronze medal because he is heavier than Klokov. This guy is also incredible.
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United States4471 Posts
On August 19 2008 12:47 MaZza[KIS] wrote:WHAT?
And you came to this conclusion by closely reviewing both their training regimes?
Friend, swimmers swim several hours a day EVERY day... they also do it for a sport that gives very little reward for the effort (unless you're a Thorpe or a Phelps)... Kobe doesn't have HALF the drive and determination that Phelps does.
So, you're saying Kobe would win more medals if, say, there was a slam dunk contest?
2008 (New Orleans) - Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic 2007 (Las Vegas) - Gerald Green, Boston Celtics 2006 (Houston) - Nate Robinson, New York Knicks 2005 (Denver) - Josh Smith, Atlanta Hawks 2004 (Los Angeles) - Fred Jones, Indiana Pacers 2003 (Atlanta) - Jason Richardson, Golden State Warriors ..............
awwww... looks like Kobe WOULDN'T be getting gold. Why? He's doesn't have the best slam dunk.. nor the best 3 point shot.. nor... wait.. NOR IS HE ONE PLAYER! He is one of many... OH THAT'S RIGHT... He plays a TEAM sport... and even if he did play shit he'd still get a medal... is that fair? Is it fair that Michael Phelps should train 4 years all day every day and get a silver and some bench warmer for the U.S.A. team should get a gold just for being selected?
You see my point.... there's a distinct difference between what Phelps does and what Kobe does.. distinct and cavernous difference!
P.S. Kobe is a brilliant player
I don't agree that Kobe is necessarily a better athlete or trains harder than Phelps, but your arguments aren't very convincing either.
Listing the previous winners of the slam dunk contest is useless because Kobe wasn't even competing in them. The NBA doesn't take the best players in the league and let them all compete in the dunk contest, if anything they've recently trended towards letting lesser-known players participate so that they can build a name for themselves. DHow was the closest thing to an established player participating in the dunk contest in the past few years, and he only did it to make a point about big men being able to dunk creatively. It is very likely that Kobe would win a dunk contest if he were to compete, as he did in the only year he did participate.
The argument about Kobe not being as impressive because he plays a team sport is also a poor one. Three of Phelps' gold medals were from medleys, in which he competed as part of a team. In his second relay, it's quite arguable that it was Lezak who won it for the US, not Phelps. With Kobe, it is widely acknowledged by players, coaches, experts, etc. that Kobe is the best individual basketball talent in the world right now. Whether it's a team sport or not, that doesn't change the fact that Kobe is, from top to bottom, the best player in a league filled with some of the greatest athletes on the planet. Kobe hasn't ridden on the coat tails of any of his teammates, and in fact has carried many teams on his back farther than they could ever have gone without him simply because his enormous talent can make up a lot of ground. There is nothing to suggest that Kobe is less impressive as an athlete simply because he plays a more team-oriented sport than Phelps.
In the end, arguing that Kobe doesn't have half the drive and determination as Phelps is going too far. Like I said, I don't think that we can say definitively that Kobe is a better athlete or trains harder than Phelps, but neither can we say that Phelps definitely a better athlete or trains harder than Kobe. Both are incredible athletes who work harder than any of their competitors, and have experienced great success because of their natural gifts and their work ethic which allows them to realize the full potential of those gifts. Let's not take anything away from either.
P.S. I should just let it go now, but I have to toss in one thought. I think an argument can be made that Kobe is a better overall athlete than Phelps. I think if you had both of them compete against each other in a variety of sports and competitions, that Kobe would win more than Phelps. Part of this is because Phelps' physical gifts that make him such an amazing swimmer, actually make him a rather awkward person on land. His disproportionately long torso and short legs, combined with his freakishly long arms, make for a very awkward body to try to put through any other type of competition. Phelps himself has said that he feels uncomfortable and awkward out of the water. Kobe doesn't have that problem, and has a body fully capable of competing in just about any sport. What may hammer the point home is that I think it's pretty obvious that if both trained seriously in each other's sports, Kobe would swim better than Phelps would play basketball.
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4492 Posts
Hehe, BlackJack was probably being sarcastic in his post, but it turned into an interesting thought-exchange.
While we're on the matter; F1 pilots have the best trained all-round physique, and it could be argued that their endurance, power and concentration would make them the best athletes overall.
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On August 19 2008 17:13 XaI)CyRiC wrote:In the end, arguing that Kobe doesn't have half the drive and determination as Phelps is going too far. Like I said, I don't think that we can say definitively that Kobe is a better athlete or trains harder than Phelps, but neither can we say that Phelps definitely a better athlete or trains harder than Kobe. Both are incredible athletes who work harder than any of their competitors, and have experienced great success because of their natural gifts and their work ethic which allows them to realize the full potential of those gifts. Let's not take anything away from either.
P.S. I should just let it go now, but I have to toss in one thought. I think an argument can be made that Kobe is a better overall athlete than Phelps. I think if you had both of them compete against each other in a variety of sports and competitions, that Kobe would win more than Phelps. Part of this is because Phelps' physical gifts that make him such an amazing swimmer, actually make him a rather awkward person on land. His disproportionately long torso and short legs, combined with his freakishly long arms, make for a very awkward body to try to put through any other type of competition. Phelps himself has said that he feels uncomfortable and awkward out of the water. Kobe doesn't have that problem, and has a body fully capable of competing in just about any sport. What may hammer the point home is that I think it's pretty obvious that if both trained seriously in each other's sports, Kobe would swim better than Phelps would play basketball. Phelps has a ridiculous training regimen. I don't know about Kobe's, but I really doubt that you could say that anyone trains harder. He's been training something like 5-6 hours a day, every day for 4 years for these Olympics, and he practically never ever takes a day off.
And unfortunately, no one cares how good they are at a bunch of sports, they care about how well they excel in the sport that they play. Phelps has achieved a level of dominance in swimming that Kobe (and pretty much every other athlete competing) can only dream of. There are races that Phelps hasn't lost in 5-7 years. He just dominated the competition at the Olympics while swimming a schedule three times as difficult and as long than any other competitor. He broke 7 world records, and they were all already his own. He freaking beat Thorpe's time (BTW, best freestyler ever hands down) in the 200 free. He also won 7 golds at 2007 worlds, and he only didn't get 8 because a teammate false started a relay. He also set an American record in the 400 free relay (though it was broken later). He's achieved so much of a dominance that every single person in the field knows that when he swims, it's simply going to be a race for second (with few event exceptions, and maybe for Lockte in full form in the IMs). There simply isn't any chance for anyone else.
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Has anyone pointed out this interesting site about Michael Phelps? Apparently he actually came second and didn't get the record. http://www.001ofasecond.com/
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conspiracy theory blah blah blah the serbian team looked at frame by frame evidence down to the 0.001 seconds and he clearly got out touched according to what they saw, if they didn't agree they would have filed a protest
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Bush knocked down the towers
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4492 Posts
On August 19 2008 21:50 Choros wrote:Has anyone pointed out this interesting site about Michael Phelps? Apparently he actually came second and didn't get the record. http://www.001ofasecond.com/
Oh my. That's quite interesting. OMEGA is Phelp's sponsor for 4 years now?
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Yea, there's actually one frame in the underwater shot where you can see that Phelps has touched but Cavic hasn't. I know I saw a blown-up picture on SI.com.
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i don't believe this evidence, obviously the pictures were changed by the sponsor to that phelps could win!
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United States4471 Posts
On August 19 2008 21:00 theonemephisto wrote:Phelps has a ridiculous training regimen. I don't know about Kobe's, but I really doubt that you could say that anyone trains harder. He's been training something like 5-6 hours a day, every day for 4 years for these Olympics, and he practically never ever takes a day off.
Notice I wasn't saying that Kobe trains harder than Phelps, only that I'm not sure anyone can say definitively that Phelps trains harder than Kobe either.
And unfortunately, no one cares how good they are at a bunch of sports, they care about how well they excel in the sport that they play. Phelps has achieved a level of dominance in swimming that Kobe (and pretty much every other athlete competing) can only dream of. There are races that Phelps hasn't lost in 5-7 years. He just dominated the competition at the Olympics while swimming a schedule three times as difficult and as long than any other competitor. He broke 7 world records, and they were all already his own. He freaking beat Thorpe's time (BTW, best freestyler ever hands down) in the 200 free. He also won 7 golds at 2007 worlds, and he only didn't get 8 because a teammate false started a relay. He also set an American record in the 400 free relay (though it was broken later). He's achieved so much of a dominance that every single person in the field knows that when he swims, it's simply going to be a race for second (with few event exceptions, and maybe for Lockte in full form in the IMs). There simply isn't any chance for anyone else.
Notice I said overall athlete, and that I was merely suggesting that an argument could be made. It's true that athletes should be judged by what sport they compete in, there is room for consideration of a person's raw athletic ability. In that respect, I don't think it's misleading or incorrect to consider an athlete's versatility and ability to perform other athletic feats.
While it's true that Phelps has dominated his sport in a way that no one ever has, it's also true that he is a specialist in every sense of the word. Almost every part of Phelps' body is structured in a way to maximize his ability to swim fast, but those same qualities make him ill-suited to competing in any sport outside of the water. It's even arguable that he may not be a great water polo player, since that sport is quite different from the type of swimming competitions he excels in. He was built to swim very quickly from one point to the other, which has been proven without a doubt, but there is room to doubt his versatility, and thus position as the best athlete in the world.
Consider that he competes in a sport where the only person he is really competing against is himself. The only person who can prevent him from reaching his goals (swimming a certain difference under a certain time) is himself, his competitors can't do anything to slow him down. Unlike athletes, like Kobe, who have to play a contact sport where there is actual interaction with opponents, Phelps doesn't even really have to acknowledge his opponents except to compare his time with. He doesn't have to read opponents, react to what they do, coordinate with teammates, etc. to nearly the same extent as others who play team sports, or even sports like tennis where you are actually going head-to-head with someone. There may be a certain amount of adjustment or reaction to what his opponents do, but Phelps doesn't have to deal with any of that to anywhere near the same level as a lot of other athletes do. I mention this to bring attention to the fact that, when you consider his limitations to the water and the limitations of his sport, Phelps is a rather limited athlete overall, as most other athletes (i.e. runners, basketball players, football players, etc.) are able to compete at a high level in their sport while also being able to compete at a pretty high level in other sports as well.
I am not intending to take anything away from what Phelps did, he is an amazing athlete who accomplished something that comes along once in generations. He deserves almost all of the credit he's been getting, and I thoroughly enjoyed witnessing his greatness. However, people talking about him as the greatest Olympian or athlete ever is questionable. Swimming is a competition which is conducive to winning a lot of medals, and so it's not fair to compare him to other athletes who win fewer than him since most couldn't attempt to win as many even if they wanted to. People talk about how he's done something that nobody has ever done before. That's great, but he's also done something that only a relatively small number of people are even allowed to do.
If we're going to measure him solely as a swimmer when considering his status as an athlete, then we should restrict his accomplishments to that particular sport as well. Too many people are focusing too much on the number of gold medals he's won, and using that number to declare him the premier athlete of the world (and in history for some) solely because of that number. That's an unfair way to compare athletes for the reasons I've discussed above. Many people then point to the fact that he's done something that's never been done before, even by other swimmers. That argument remains unconvincing because there are many athletes in other sports who accomplish feats that no other person has ever been able to do in their respective sports all the time as well. Phelps is great, no doubt about it and no argument from me otherwise, but people are taking this too far when they start declaring him a better athlete than so-and-so or a better Olympian than so-and-so like it's a fact, when it clearly is not.
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well basketball is more of a skill game and swimming is more about conditioning, though obviously either takes both
so what I guess I am saying is that in basketball it doesn't matter how well conditioned u are if u aren't good at the game, whereas in swimming it doesn't matter how skilled you are at the strokes if you aren't conditioned well enough
I am not sure what my point is but it just seems relevant for anyone who isn't thinking about that.
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On August 20 2008 03:53 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Notice I said overall athlete, and that I was merely suggesting that an argument could be made. It's true that athletes should be judged by what sport they compete in, there is room for consideration of a person's raw athletic ability. In that respect, I don't think it's misleading or incorrect to consider an athlete's versatility and ability to perform other athletic feats.
While it's true that Phelps has dominated his sport in a way that no one ever has, it's also true that he is a specialist in every sense of the word. Almost every part of Phelps' body is structured in a way to maximize his ability to swim fast, but those same qualities make him ill-suited to competing in any sport outside of the water. It's even arguable that he may not be a great water polo player, since that sport is quite different from the type of swimming competitions he excels in. He was built to swim very quickly from one point to the other, which has been proven without a doubt, but there is room to doubt his versatility, and thus position as the best athlete in the world. But that argument really can't be made at all. Specialization is what people care about and is what allows people to excel. Best athlete in the world (which in reality doesn't mean anything) IMO doesn't take into account whether they'd be able to play a sport that they aren't trying to excel at. To me, it means that they are the absolute best in the sport that they participate in, versatility within the parameters of that sport can certainly be taken into consideration (Kobe playing multiple positions/being good in multiple situations or Phelps swimming multiple strokes), but outside of the sport, it really doesn't matter unless they somehow manage to reach international competition levels in multiple sports (yet to be done as far as I know).
Consider that he competes in a sport where the only person he is really competing against is himself. The only person who can prevent him from reaching his goals (swimming a certain difference under a certain time) is himself, his competitors can't do anything to slow him down. Unlike athletes, like Kobe, who have to play a contact sport where there is actual interaction with opponents, Phelps doesn't even really have to acknowledge his opponents except to compare his time with. He doesn't have to read opponents, react to what they do, coordinate with teammates, etc. to nearly the same extent as others who play team sports, or even sports like tennis where you are actually going head-to-head with someone. There may be a certain amount of adjustment or reaction to what his opponents do, but Phelps doesn't have to deal with any of that to anywhere near the same level as a lot of other athletes do. I mention this to bring attention to the fact that, when you consider his limitations to the water and the limitations of his sport, Phelps is a rather limited athlete overall, as most other athletes (i.e. runners, basketball players, football players, etc.) are able to compete at a high level in their sport while also being able to compete at a pretty high level in other sports as well. Again, you're arguing against the nature of the sport, which I don't think is particularly relevant. In my mind, someone in competition for the title "best athlete" would be measured by their dominance in their chosen field. What that field entails (as long as it's a recognized sport), doesn't really matter, though some are certainly more impressive than others. Of course, in my mind, I don't think that you can top swimming by much. Swimming certainly takes one of the toughest combinations of skill, strength, and endurance of any sport I know. Off the top of my head, soccer is probably as hard (with some mind games/tactics as well), but not many other sports.
And as a counter argument, you could say that since basketball or other team sports are TEAM sports, then a player's contribution is much harder to measure. In swimming, you know that Michael Phelps is the person that is responsible for winning and dominating. It's all on him, he may have help, but in the end, he's the person who won those races and he's the only person responsible for his victory (except for relays OFC). And even in relays, the level of individual responsibility is much greater, as you can look at the times and see who did as well as they could and who choked or was simply too slow.
Team sports don't have that level of individual responsibility, and are also much harder to measure individual contributions. You can usually tell the good from the bad, but quantifying skill is very hard, as everything is done within the context of a team that can make you look much better or worse than you really are.
If we're going to measure him solely as a swimmer when considering his status as an athlete, then we should restrict his accomplishments to that particular sport as well. Too many people are focusing too much on the number of gold medals he's won, and using that number to declare him the premier athlete of the world (and in history for some) solely because of that number. That's an unfair way to compare athletes for the reasons I've discussed above. Many people then point to the fact that he's done something that's never been done before, even by other swimmers. That argument remains unconvincing because there are many athletes in other sports who accomplish feats that no other person has ever been able to do in their respective sports all the time as well. Phelps is great, no doubt about it and no argument from me otherwise, but people are taking this too far when they start declaring him a better athlete than so-and-so or a better Olympian than so-and-so like it's a fact, when it clearly is not. I agree with that. I do think that he is certainly up there, and possibly the greatest Olympian I've ever seen. However, that's subjective, as there's no way to quantify "greatest" across sports and eras. Phelps has achieved an individual level of dominance in a sport that recently I have never seen and I can't imagine seeing again in the near future, but you can't call someone greatest and have it stand as a fact, it's always going to be an opinion.
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Phelps is amazing but hes not the best athelete in the world. That spot belongs to tiger woods who has more drive, more mental toughness, and better physique compared to his other competitors. There was even an article on yahoo ill look for where he was voted the best athelte with micheal jordan a close second because of his domination, insane drive, and grueling ruitine
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United States4471 Posts
On August 20 2008 04:12 likeaboss wrote: Phelps is amazing but hes not the best athelete in the world. That spot belongs to tiger woods who has more drive, more mental toughness, and better physique compared to his other competitors. There was even an article on yahoo ill look for where he was voted the best athelte with micheal jordan a close second because of his domination, insane drive, and grueling ruitine
I'd actually really like to see Tiger Woods play some other sports. Not because I doubt he would do so in an impressive fashion, but simply because you don't really get to see much athleticism displayed in golf. A guy could be the fastest sprinter or highest jumper in the world, but you'd never be able to tell just by watching them play golf. I'm curious to see just how athletic the guy is.
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BTW, I think that people saying that swimming is a sport so conductive to medal winning is a little bit misleading, considering that the only other person to win 8 medals at an Olympics was a gymnast.
I think that a lot of people are mislead to think that the events are so similar because exposure to swimming is pretty lacking, and I think that people have gotten used to watching Phelps. Most of the time, the most dominating swimmer's will be able to win consistently at 2-3 events, something which I think is fairly reasonable and that is somewhat consistent with other high-medal events (gymnastics, track).
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United States4471 Posts
On August 20 2008 04:42 theonemephisto wrote: BTW, I think that people saying that swimming is a sport so conductive to medal winning is a little bit misleading, considering that the only other person to win 8 medals at an Olympics was a gymnast.
I think that a lot of people are mislead to think that the events are so similar because exposure to swimming is pretty lacking, and I think that people have gotten used to watching Phelps. Most of the time, the most dominating swimmer's will be able to win consistently at 2-3 events, something which I think is fairly reasonable and that is somewhat consistent with other high-medal events (gymnastics, track).
Swimming is a sport conducive to medal winning, but it's not the only one. However, there are factors that make it so that it's arguably at least a little bit easier to win many medals in swimming than those others. I don't think it's far-fetched to say that the different events in swimming are quite a bit more similar than the different events in sports like gymnastics. The person who I assume you're referring to as the gymnast who also won 8 medals in one Olympics (Aleksandr Dityatin) did so by medaling in events as dissimilar as rings, pommel horse, vault, horizontal bar, and floor exercise. You can't tell me that those are as similar as the four different swimming strokes, regardless of how many meters a person is swimming.
Further, as quoted in a previous post of mine in this thread, there are other factors which make it easier for swimmers to compete in so many events. I'll requote the relevant portion here:
On August 18 2008 16:40 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Article about whether Phelps is the "greatest Olympian ever" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/sports/olympics/15longman.html?_r=1&oref=sloginExcerpts: Show nested quote +It is much easier to win multiple medals in sports like swimming and gymnastics than in track and field, because there are more individual events. And fewer countries produce elite swimmers than runners, making track a more democratic sport. Show nested quote +Runners compete vertically. They pound their bodies harder, and must work their hearts and muscles harder, than swimmers, who compete horizontally. Show nested quote +Swimmers recover quicker and, during major international competitions, generally compete in fewer rounds than runners. Article about all the world records being broke in swimming: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/11/sports/olyrecords.php?page=2Excerpts: Show nested quote +"The nature of swimming also allows athletes to perform in more events than, say, track, providing more opportunities for stars to set world records. Sprinters in swimming tend to train much longer distances than sprinters in track, gaining superior aerobic capacity. They also perform in a horizontal position, which allows easier circulation of oxygen and nutrients through the blood, and they don't pound their muscles, tendons and ligaments, thus gaining quicker recovery. At international competitions, swimmers also generally participate in fewer rounds than track sprinters, which can leave them fresher for event finals."
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On August 20 2008 04:57 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2008 04:42 theonemephisto wrote: BTW, I think that people saying that swimming is a sport so conductive to medal winning is a little bit misleading, considering that the only other person to win 8 medals at an Olympics was a gymnast.
I think that a lot of people are mislead to think that the events are so similar because exposure to swimming is pretty lacking, and I think that people have gotten used to watching Phelps. Most of the time, the most dominating swimmer's will be able to win consistently at 2-3 events, something which I think is fairly reasonable and that is somewhat consistent with other high-medal events (gymnastics, track). Swimming is a sport conducive to medal winning, but it's not the only one. However, there are factors that make it so that it's arguably at least a little bit easier to win many medals in swimming than those others. I don't think it's far-fetched to say that the different events in swimming are quite a bit more similar than the different events in sports like gymnastics. The person who I assume you're referring to as the gymnast who also won 8 medals in one Olympics (Aleksandr Dityatin) did so by medaling in events as dissimilar as rings, pommel horse, vault, horizontal bar, and floor exercise. You can't tell me that those are as similar as the four different swimming strokes, regardless of how many meters a person is swimming. Further, as quoted in a previous post of mine in this thread, there are other factors which make it easier for swimmers to compete in so many events. I'll requote the relevant portion here: Show nested quote +On August 18 2008 16:40 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Article about whether Phelps is the "greatest Olympian ever" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/sports/olympics/15longman.html?_r=1&oref=sloginExcerpts: It is much easier to win multiple medals in sports like swimming and gymnastics than in track and field, because there are more individual events. And fewer countries produce elite swimmers than runners, making track a more democratic sport. Runners compete vertically. They pound their bodies harder, and must work their hearts and muscles harder, than swimmers, who compete horizontally. Swimmers recover quicker and, during major international competitions, generally compete in fewer rounds than runners. Article about all the world records being broke in swimming: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/11/sports/olyrecords.php?page=2Excerpts: "The nature of swimming also allows athletes to perform in more events than, say, track, providing more opportunities for stars to set world records. Sprinters in swimming tend to train much longer distances than sprinters in track, gaining superior aerobic capacity. They also perform in a horizontal position, which allows easier circulation of oxygen and nutrients through the blood, and they don't pound their muscles, tendons and ligaments, thus gaining quicker recovery. At international competitions, swimmers also generally participate in fewer rounds than track sprinters, which can leave them fresher for event finals." I'm actually not aware of how track is done at the Olympics. Do they have heats, quarters, semis, and finals? If that's the case, then yes, track does compete more per event (4 to 3). Also, as far as I know, the competition period for track is much longer than swimming, so less races a day and more rest. Of course, I'd have to say that swimming competes more than gymnastics, but whatever.
And yes, I'd make the argument that the different strokes are as different or at least similar to the different events in gymnastics. I've obviously swam and haven't done gymnastics at anything near a competitive level, so this is obviously somewhat biased and uninformed. However, it seems that many of the basic skills are similar (balance, strength, awareness) and, more importantly, there is a fairly large number of gymnasts who can and do excel at the top level at a number of different events. Comparing that to the number of swimmers who manage to excel at multiple stroke disciplines, and I'd have to think that my point has some merit. Looking at the events they seem much more different, but the evidence seems to show the contrary.
You seem to have quoted the first article a bit selectively, as it pretty much shows the same thing I've been saying, that it's subjective.
For the second, I fail to see a couple of the points:
Sprinters in swimming tend to train much longer distances than sprinters in track, gaining superior aerobic capacity. So you're saying that swimmers can do more events because of how they train. What's stopping a sprinter from training more aerobically in order to be able to do a harder schedule? (note that it doesn't necessarily have to be running if you're going to bring in injuries/overuse, though swimmers have pretty big problems with overuse also). I think the reason that no runner dominates like Phelps (or anything close to recently) is because no one has the versatility that he does; no one has anything like the ability to break the world record in the 400 IM and then to turn around and breaking the American record in the 100 free.
And I think that the article may have forgotten the fact that swimmers don't get to breathe during their races. Yea, that hurts, a lot, not going to lie.
Though I have to agree with the impact nature of running compared to swimming. I can't imagine that's comfortable.
Looking at the schedule with my inexperienced eye, I could imagine someone winning about 6 medals at the Olympics in track (100, 200 or 400, 800, mile, 2 relays), resulting in about 19 races over 9 days, compared to Phelp's 17 over 8 days. So there's definitely a difference in terms of sheer number of races, though I don't know the record for medals won in track during one Olympics (is it close to 6? I don't think so but I wouldn't know). Oh, this is also assuming that the same relay has to compete in heats and finals for track, if it isn't like that, then it'd be 17 over 9 compared to 17 over 8 for 6 events vs 8).
Perhaps the best argument in Phelps’s favor is that he is swimming a range of distances that convert to track races from a quarter mile to a mile (sprinting is about five times faster than swimming). No quarter miler is also dominant as a miler.
Phelps has superior aerobic capacity, compared with track sprinters, gained by swimming more than nine miles a day during peak training periods, said Genadijus Sokolovas, the director of sports science for USA Swimming.
“Track and field sprinters come to their races from short-distance training,” Sokolovas said. “They do a lot of speed work, not as much endurance. As a result, sprinters don’t recover so well. They don’t have enough aerobic capacity. If they trained differently, it might be a different situation. Michael’s ability to recover after such high-volume training and race is amazing.”
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It's also important to point out, when you compare someone like Phelps to Kobe or Nadal, is that the Olympics isn't the greatest sporting even for Kobe or Nadal.
If you've ever watched the NBA stars at the opening ceremony, marching out with the other U.S. athletes, none of them seem very thrilled. Some of them would have video camers maybe, or would wave occasionally, but most of the time they aren't even smiling. The other athletes all have their little flags and they're grinning ear to ear and waving their flag and you can tell that it's probably the greatest moment of their life.
Pretty much nobody on the dream team would trade an NBA championship for a Gold medal. At this point, pretty much getting selected for the team is a gold medal.
For swimming, track, gymnastics etc., the Olympics is the greatest platform on earth for them to display what they've got. There is no NBA championship, no World Series, no Grand Slam, no Indy 500, no World Cup, etc.
In the United States, they have once every 4 years to showcase their talent. We marvel at it, cherish it for a week, then forget about them until 4 years later.
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actually blackjack kobe has stated on more than one occasion that winning gold > nba championship for him.
theyre somber because they really REALLY want to kick ass. NBA players dont smile prior to the championships either.
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probably because he already has already won like a million championships
I completely agree with blackjack
and I don't think golf and swimming are comparable.
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Ask Malone or Barkley if they would trade their gold for a ring LOL
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United States4471 Posts
Well I agree that it's an entirely subjective whether a person believes a particular athlete is more athletic than another. Heck the term athletic is interpreted differently by different people. I don't think we're necessarily trying to prove each other wrong or ourselves right in this discussion though (more of a dialogue), so it's not a big deal.
I will admit to not being an expert in any of the Olympic events. Most of my opinion is based upon what I've read in published articles written by people who seem to know what they're talking about. There are arguments on both sides about whether swimming is more conducive to medals than track or gymnastics, but I do think that generally most people agree that it's up there among the best in that regard. In the end, I think that Phelps deserves his accolades as a once-a-generation type of athlete, but that it may be going overboard to call him the best athlete now or greatest Olympian ever. There are too many different factors that come into play that make any attempt at straight comparison impossible.
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It's discussed by the Olympic commentators that Michael Phelps isn't necessarily the fastest swimmer, although he is incredibly fast, but the amount of speed and distance he achieves from his turns is what makes him the fastest swimmer, because by the time he surfaces after a kick, everyone has taken 3-4 strokes already.
That's why he's fun to watch, because he can be a few inches behind someone, kick the wall, and come shooting way past; and take 8 Gold Medals in the process.
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On August 20 2008 15:12 PhorClayton wrote: It's discussed by the Olympic commentators that Michael Phelps isn't necessarily the fastest swimmer, although he is incredibly fast, but the amount of speed and distance he achieves from his turns is what makes him the fastest swimmer, because by the time he surfaces after a kick, everyone has taken 3-4 strokes already.
That's why he's fun to watch, because he can be a few inches behind someone, kick the wall, and come shooting way past; and take 8 Gold Medals in the process.
The only reason Nadal isn't more awesome and discussed at the olympics than Phelps is because there are no 9 golds for Nadal to go el toro on. Seriously Phelps gets a ton of opportunities for a gold medal, how is that awesome? It's all more or less the same discipline. Swimming doesn't change a lot. You still make the same strokes etc. It is probably the easiest sport to obtain a ton of medals on at the olympics. That being said, NadaL>Phelps.
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On August 20 2008 16:51 {ToT}Strafe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2008 15:12 PhorClayton wrote: It's discussed by the Olympic commentators that Michael Phelps isn't necessarily the fastest swimmer, although he is incredibly fast, but the amount of speed and distance he achieves from his turns is what makes him the fastest swimmer, because by the time he surfaces after a kick, everyone has taken 3-4 strokes already.
That's why he's fun to watch, because he can be a few inches behind someone, kick the wall, and come shooting way past; and take 8 Gold Medals in the process.
The only reason Nadal isn't more awesome and discussed at the olympics than Phelps is because there are no 9 golds for Nadal to go el toro on. Seriously Phelps gets a ton of opportunities for a gold medal, how is that awesome? It's all more or less the same discipline. Swimming doesn't change a lot. You still make the same strokes etc. It is probably the easiest sport to obtain a ton of medals on at the olympics. That being said, NadaL>Phelps.
Nadal competed in 2 events, he didn't medal in the other.
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cuz his partner fails dont talk shit now
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On August 20 2008 17:42 {ToT}Strafe wrote: cuz his partner fails dont talk shit now
He didn't chose the right one then, while Phelps was able to win 3 gold thanks to his partners... btw, i saw Nadal losing in double and he was the one who failed in the Spanish team actually.
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lol strafe what a huge amount of shit you just said now, with swimming being pretty much the same and etc
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On August 20 2008 16:51 {ToT}Strafe wrote:The only reason Nadal isn't more awesome and discussed at the olympics than Phelps is because there are no 9 golds for Nadal to go el toro on. Seriously Phelps gets a ton of opportunities for a gold medal, how is that awesome? It's all more or less the same discipline. Swimming doesn't change a lot. You still make the same strokes etc. It is probably the easiest sport to obtain a ton of medals on at the olympics. That being said, NadaL>Phelps. Good job not knowing anything about swimming.
On August 20 2008 15:12 PhorClayton wrote: It's discussed by the Olympic commentators that Michael Phelps isn't necessarily the fastest swimmer, although he is incredibly fast, but the amount of speed and distance he achieves from his turns is what makes him the fastest swimmer, because by the time he surfaces after a kick, everyone has taken 3-4 strokes already.
That's why he's fun to watch, because he can be a few inches behind someone, kick the wall, and come shooting way past; and take 8 Gold Medals in the process. Lol, kind of contradictory. He doesn't swim the fastest, but he is the fastest swimmer, because the fastest swimmer is the person that puts the best time up on the wall.
Though Phelps' style is part of making swimming more entertaining to watch I'll agree. There are some events that he just absolutely blows away the field obviously, but the fact that Phelps is much more of a back-half swimmer with amazing turns makes it so that more often, he's pretty even going into the middle turn and the blows away everyone then. It also allows comeback victories like the 100 fly, and keeps it interesting for like the 400 IM until he blows away everyone on the last turns.
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United States10774 Posts
On August 20 2008 16:51 {ToT}Strafe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2008 15:12 PhorClayton wrote: It's discussed by the Olympic commentators that Michael Phelps isn't necessarily the fastest swimmer, although he is incredibly fast, but the amount of speed and distance he achieves from his turns is what makes him the fastest swimmer, because by the time he surfaces after a kick, everyone has taken 3-4 strokes already.
That's why he's fun to watch, because he can be a few inches behind someone, kick the wall, and come shooting way past; and take 8 Gold Medals in the process.
The only reason Nadal isn't more awesome and discussed at the olympics than Phelps is because there are no 9 golds for Nadal to go el toro on. Seriously Phelps gets a ton of opportunities for a gold medal, how is that awesome? It's all more or less the same discipline. Swimming doesn't change a lot. You still make the same strokes etc. It is probably the easiest sport to obtain a ton of medals on at the olympics. That being said, NadaL>Phelps.
hahaha made me laugh
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On August 20 2008 21:30 ~chut~ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2008 17:42 {ToT}Strafe wrote: cuz his partner fails dont talk shit now He didn't chose the right one then, while Phelps was able to win 3 gold thanks to his partners... btw, i saw Nadal losing in double and he was the one who failed in the Spanish team actually.
Nadal does simply not lose. I have no clue what you mean
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On August 20 2008 19:41 WingSandrockX wrote: ^ LMFAO, get off nadal's nuts asap k?
Federer ezz
lol son
Nadal officially takes over No. 1 ranking
Ponte Vedra Beach, FL (Sports Network) - Rafael Nadal officially took over the No. 1 position in the ATP Rankings Monday, replacing Swiss Roger Federer who held the top spot for a record 237 consecutive weeks.
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Career prize money US$19,996,948
VS
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In total agreement with strafe.
LOL @ those who think Phelps > Nadal.
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lmao phelps really is a douchebag but he won 8 gold medals!
hes worth respect just for that
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
two different sports, but bolt is beasting it more from a wider talent pool. i feel sorry for the other dudes running, but phelps gets good competition from some specialists.
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Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible.
On August 21 2008 22:21 BlackJack wrote: Usain Bolt > both
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On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible.
they should get rid of the 100m or 200m swims for each style... too many people with medals in both
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On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible.
im really serious
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United States22883 Posts
On August 22 2008 00:53 ray1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible. On August 21 2008 22:21 BlackJack wrote: Usain Bolt > both they should get rid of the 100m or 200m swims for each style... too many people with medals in both You should probably read the rest of this thread where it was proven that that's not true at all.
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On August 22 2008 00:53 ray1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible. On August 21 2008 22:21 BlackJack wrote: Usain Bolt > both they should get rid of the 100m or 200m swims for each style... too many people with medals in both
walter dix and usain bolt won 4 of the 6 medals in the 100 and 200 Kerron Stewart medaled in the 100 and the 200 Marion Jones won 3 golds and 2 bronzes in 2000 OGM!!! get rid of all the similar events!
What's wrong with too many people getting medals? who cares? medal counts are stupid anyways what does it matter they're vastly different races why should they be removed?
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On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible. And the 100 fly and the 400 IM aren't vastly different?
I'm not saying that it should be common or anything. I'm just saying that Michael Phelps has done a pretty similar thing except in swimming (100 to 400 are a similar relation to 400 and mile, except the 400 IM also has 4 different strokes). If there were someone as dominant and versatile as Phelps in track, I'd expect them to be able to do similar things.
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apparently phelps is a bit of a douchebag though
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On August 23 2008 10:15 kpcrew(Gg) wrote: apparently phelps is a bit of a douchebag though
Yea, apparently, but nobody wants to hear their hero's a douche.
For all you guys who say that the 100/200 strokes should be compressed, they're two totally different events. I know kids who rock the 200 distances and suck at the 100 distances. In the professional swimming world, Brandon Hansen is a baller 200 breaststroker but not so much a 100 breaststroker. And for all of you guys who don't swim, try swimming a 200 fly. It's hard.
I don't know the exact magnitude of Usain Bolt's accomplishments because I don't run, but apparently it's pretty rare to see someone that fast by that big of a margin in that many events, especially the sprint ones.
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There should be two or three swimming disciplines. Not 32.
There should no longer be weight classes in all those sports that have ones.
Stuff like table tennis and badminton shouldn't separate males and females.
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Let's just say as good as phelps is, he's a winner in a losers sport.
I'd rather be a loser in winners sport.
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Midget toss should be an official Olympic sport.
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On August 23 2008 10:37 yn01_ wrote: Let's just say as good as phelps is, he's a winner in a losers sport.
I'd rather be a loser in winners sport.
not true at all
the guy won 8 gold medals who wouldnt want the dick of the most "winningest" olympian of all time? i mean get real, this guy is world famous and in amazing shape
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United States10774 Posts
On August 23 2008 10:37 yn01_ wrote: Let's just say as good as phelps is, he's a winner in a losers sport.
I'd rather be a loser in winners sport. losers sport=? winners sport=?
what the fuck are you talking about
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he said phelps is a water sissy
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On August 23 2008 10:35 BlackStar wrote: There should be two or three swimming disciplines. Not 32.
There should no longer be weight classes in all those sports that have ones.
Stuff like table tennis and badminton shouldn't separate males and females.
oh? so should we compress running into 2 or 3 races? should we also compress all of diving into 2 events? what about crew? i don't see why people say this, why do you care if there are more events? There's more events to watch, more time to enjoy the olympics, if you don't like the medal count then ignore it who cares
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Because it's not fair.
If there is 6 weight classes you only have to beat 1/6th of the field.
Running is the most basic human activity. A few different disciplines are justified. But I still don't get why they have 100, 200, 400, 4x100, etc even with running.
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not fair to who? the athletes? the spectators? the judges?
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Braavos36373 Posts
On August 24 2008 01:30 KOFgokuon wrote: not fair to who? the athletes? the spectators? the judges? not fair to blackstar's fantasy world of arbitrary justifications
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On August 22 2008 02:48 theonemephisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2008 00:38 ShAsTa wrote:Nadal hasn't accomplished that much. He's on a roll this year but not yet what you make him out to be strafe. Federer is way (way) ahead of him. You can't win the 100/200/400/800/1600 (track) to whoever said that. They are vastly different. Maybe 100/200/400 but rest is impossible. On August 21 2008 22:21 BlackJack wrote: Usain Bolt > both And the 100 fly and the 400 IM aren't vastly different? I'm not saying that it should be common or anything. I'm just saying that Michael Phelps has done a pretty similar thing except in swimming (100 to 400 are a similar relation to 400 and mile, except the 400 IM also has 4 different strokes). If there were someone as dominant and versatile as Phelps in track, I'd expect them to be able to do similar things. I don't know much about swimming so you could be right. But there's one thing that still makes me think that the differences in swimming are not as big as in running, and that's how different the athletes are built in track. Unless I'm mistaken most swimmers have more or less the same body shape. Tall and somewhat muscular but nothing like a 100m sprinter. If you look at track the difference between an 800m runner and a 100m sprinter is huge. Of course there are exceptions like Bolt, Kim Collins, Miankova in hammer throw (lol), ... but overall the difference is big and bigger than in swimming. And with such a big difference it would be pretty much impossible to win the 800m if you compete in the 100m. But again, I'm no expert.
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kosuke kitajima is 5'10", 161 (breaststroker), ian thorpe was 6'5" 229 (mid distance freestyler) i'd say those are pretty significant differences
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On August 24 2008 01:33 Hot_Bid wrote: not fair to blackstar's fantasy world of arbitrary justifications
Can you count? If so it should be obvious unless you live in a fantasy world.
Medals aren't equal. There's only 1 medal in many sports while there are more than a dozen in others.
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On August 24 2008 04:54 BlackStar wrote: Medals aren't equal. Exactly. And they never will be, so there's no point in removing divisions that are far from arbitrary just to make things "fair".
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On August 24 2008 04:54 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2008 01:33 Hot_Bid wrote: not fair to blackstar's fantasy world of arbitrary justifications Can you count? If so it should be obvious unless you live in a fantasy world. Medals aren't equal. There's only 1 medal in many sports while there are more than a dozen in others.
do you really think brian clay cares if michael phelps as 8 medals, even though clay had to do 10 different events to earn his? i doubt it
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Who the hell is Brian Clay and why would it be relevant?
Medals aren't equal right now. It's only fair when they are, obviously. It's fair when it's fair. Do you really think that's not what Phelps thinks?
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On August 24 2008 05:21 SonuvBob wrote:Exactly. And they never will be, so there's no point in removing divisions that are far from arbitrary just to make things "fair".
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Read SonuvBob's post, it doesn't matter if they are equal or not.
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On August 24 2008 05:49 BlackStar wrote: Who the hell is Brian Clay and why would it be relevant?
Medals aren't equal right now. It's only fair when they are, obviously. It's fair when it's fair. Do you really think that's not what Phelps thinks?
Whatever you may think, it's not easy to just 'make them fair'. The choice of disciplines as it is now was not made arbitrarily. If you think that everybody else in the world is stupid, maybe you should have a look at yourself.
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On August 24 2008 05:49 BlackStar wrote: Who the hell is Brian Clay and why would it be relevant?
Medals aren't equal right now. It's only fair when they are, obviously. It's fair when it's fair. Do you really think that's not what Phelps thinks?
fair to who?
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Braavos36373 Posts
again, the distinctions blackstar makes are as arbitrary and unfair as the ones he's criticizing
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On August 24 2008 01:25 BlackStar wrote: Because it's not fair.
If there is 6 weight classes you only have to beat 1/6th of the field.
Running is the most basic human activity. A few different disciplines are justified. But I still don't get why they have 100, 200, 400, 4x100, etc even with running. if they seperate male and female you only have to beat half the field?
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Canada5062 Posts
Some lobotomized idiot here with less than a 1000 posts to his credit and an obvious predilection for the thesaurus disagrees with my opinion that the 50m free swim is a hopelessly inane event that undermines the credibility of the sport as an Olympic category. The basic argument of this fool appears to be that 50m is simply a metric, like 100m or 400m, and has the same legitimacy as any of the already accepted distances.
Raise your hand if anyone here wants to see the 50m dash or the 60m hurdles at the Olympics, hmm?
I mean, how diluted must a sport become before the adults who make the rules quit paying attention to the juvenile opinions of losers who throw out opinions for the sake of killing time?
Geezus.
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A 50m swim actually is pretty different since there's no turn involved (which is where Phelps is strongest afaik). I have no idea who you're responding to though.
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china won
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On August 25 2008 02:34 SonuvBob wrote: A 50m swim actually is pretty different since there's no turn involved (which is where Phelps is strongest afaik). I have no idea who you're responding to though.
Whoever it was, he got owned.
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speaking of reference books, you're taking my post like an angry 10 year old with access to a dictionary. calm your face. its good for your health.
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Canada5062 Posts
Oh, great rejoinder fig. Way to show your reasoning prowess.
How does your petulant response in any way address my point? Or are we meant to be overwhelmed by your sophomoric attempt at online irony and overlook the fact that your message is as vacuous as the space that Usain Bolt occupied a second ago?
Oh, I see - you have no point, so you're giving up. About fucking time.
And please don't assume to lecture me here about being "calm" - you're the guy with the lepton-sized brain who started this lampoon of an argument in the first place. Deal with it and move on.
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Canada5062 Posts
On August 25 2008 02:34 SonuvBob wrote: A 50m swim actually is pretty different since there's no turn involved (which is where Phelps is strongest afaik). I have no idea who you're responding to though.
Fair point, but it does not change my opinion. At some point, you have to ask whether a particular event is truly worthy of the attention of nations and world class athletes. Swimmers in the 50 free take perhaps 2 or 3 breaths during the swim. It is a spectacle for people looking to gawk at something freakish. It is not worthy of the Olympics.
EDIT: If the absence of "turns" somehow validates the 50m free, then we need to have a 25m free as well. Sure would be easy to retro-fit the pools too - just float a plastic redline at the half-way point and blanket the finish line with Omega sensors. Pretty ridiculous, I know. But, so is the 50m free in the Olympics.
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On August 25 2008 02:14 mensrea wrote: Some lobotomized idiot here with less than a 1000 posts to his credit and an obvious predilection for the thesaurus disagrees with my opinion that the 50m free swim is a hopelessly inane event that undermines the credibility of the sport as an Olympic category. The basic argument of this fool appears to be that 50m is simply a metric, like 100m or 400m, and has the same legitimacy as any of the already accepted distances.
Raise your hand if anyone here wants to see the 50m dash or the 60m hurdles at the Olympics, hmm?
I mean, how diluted must a sport become before the adults who make the rules quit paying attention to the juvenile opinions of losers who throw out opinions for the sake of killing time?
Geezus. How is the difference between 50 and 100 free different from the difference between the 100 and 200 in track? Swimming is something like 4-5 times slower in comparisons, so when compared to track you're basically saying that the 200 and 400 shouldn't be separate events. (no, the 50 free is not comparable to a 50m dash)
And BTW, no olympic level sprinter will breathe a single time in the 50 free. Hell, if I breathe twice I already consider it a bad race, and I'm not a sprinter and not nearly olympic-level. If you've never swam the two events then you can't understand how different it is to swim them.
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On August 25 2008 05:43 mensrea wrote: EDIT: If the absence of "turns" somehow validates the 50m free, then we need to have a 25m free as well. Sure would be easy to retro-fit the pools too - just float a plastic redline at the half-way point and blanket the finish line with Omega sensors. Pretty ridiculous, I know. But, so is the 50m free in the Olympics. What?
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On August 25 2008 06:09 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2008 05:43 mensrea wrote: EDIT: If the absence of "turns" somehow validates the 50m free, then we need to have a 25m free as well. Sure would be easy to retro-fit the pools too - just float a plastic redline at the half-way point and blanket the finish line with Omega sensors. Pretty ridiculous, I know. But, so is the 50m free in the Olympics. What?
Not having the turn is no reason to justify a swimming event ~-~
I would agree with mensrea about the 50m being unworthy of the Olympics if there wasn't much more unworthy events, like handball.
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So what if its a given metric? Each difference in events measure different capacities of the competitors. Aside from the obvious difference than SonofBob graciously laid out to you - that theres turns involved, something that seems to have escaped your powers of observation - there the 50m swim filters differences in energy expenditure, muscular strength and aerobic capacity among competitors.
Your "opinion" seems to be derived from an embarrassing lack of competitive experience and understanding of the purpose of sports and games (how you ever got involved with starcraft is beyond me). The 50 meter spring is an agreed upon rule set, its open to all competitors, and the best person qualified wins (usually). It has nothing to do with sport dilution or audience; 100 meter sprinters dont look at a marathon and consider it a superfluous event. If they did, its because they never tried it.
At some point, you have to ask whether a particular event is truly worthy of the attention of nations and world class athletes. Swimmers in the 50 free take perhaps 2 or 3 breaths during the swim. It is a spectacle for people looking to gawk at something freakish. It is not worthy of the Olympics.
How is the 50 free any less important than the 100 meter dash? Youre attempting to objectify your contempt for a particular event and considering the swimming events were the most watched part of the 2008 Olympics here, it seems pretty misguided. If youre going to fume at something, why not synchronized swimming or pole vaulting?
As an aside, I really don't know why you're being so vile in your posts. For the record, I've read and respected your opinions since broodwar.net. No hard feelings.
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Guys blackstar is just upset that phelps got more golds than his entire country.
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On August 25 2008 06:21 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2008 06:09 SonuvBob wrote:On August 25 2008 05:43 mensrea wrote: EDIT: If the absence of "turns" somehow validates the 50m free, then we need to have a 25m free as well. Sure would be easy to retro-fit the pools too - just float a plastic redline at the half-way point and blanket the finish line with Omega sensors. Pretty ridiculous, I know. But, so is the 50m free in the Olympics. What? Not having the turn is no reason to justify a swimming event ~-~ I would agree with mensrea about the 50m being unworthy of the Olympics if there wasn't much more unworthy events, like handball.  Ugh. I tried watching handball, but it's just so terrible.
There's still worse things like equestrian dressage. What the fuck.
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lol wtf guys, Handball rocks.
It's one of the most popular team sports after soccer in Europe.
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On August 25 2008 07:11 SnowFantasy wrote: Guys blackstar is just upset that phelps got more golds than his entire country.
'We' got way too many in judo and rowing just because they have so many different disciplines/weigh classes.
This comment is of bannable quality imo. I never attacked Phelps. I saw this title a long time ago and thought 'stupid thread, pointless to even read it'. But then it kept being discussed and high on this board. So I read some stuff on the final page and someone said something about how many medals per sport. So I commented in agreement.
I'm not from the US. Don't project your nationalism on me.
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I wouldn't say it's 'popular' in Europe.. sports like tennis, athletics, swimming, biking are way more popular, but then again those aren't team sports..
After soccer all other team sports are all on the same rank I think... Volleyball, Beach volleyball, Handball, Waterpolo, (field) Hockey, baseball... Here in the Netherlands I'd say Hockey & Volleyball are the most popular after Soccer. I think volleyball is the only sport that actually gets some coverage on tv every now and then.
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for some reason i think of handball as a ball being hit against a wall
i dont know if this is just a new york thing
but it seems americans just love to go against everyone else
we call football soccer and instead of using the metric system, we use the english system, which even the english dont use
and we have to learn the metric system anyway for science -_-
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Well the Netherlands have never been good in Handball, at least not in the last decades.
Overall Handball's definitely more popular than the other team sports you mentioned.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
ya I know handball is pretty big in the southern parts of europe at least for sure...probably 2nd overall. Maybe basketball. And in Scandinavia it's definately ice hockey.
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Yeah I'd say 2nd place is between Handball and ice hockey. My guess would be ice hockey's slightly more popular, but I'm not sure.
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On August 25 2008 05:43 mensrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2008 02:34 SonuvBob wrote: A 50m swim actually is pretty different since there's no turn involved (which is where Phelps is strongest afaik). I have no idea who you're responding to though. Fair point, but it does not change my opinion. At some point, you have to ask whether a particular event is truly worthy of the attention of nations and world class athletes. Swimmers in the 50 free take perhaps 2 or 3 breaths during the swim. It is a spectacle for people looking to gawk at something freakish. It is not worthy of the Olympics. EDIT: If the absence of "turns" somehow validates the 50m free, then we need to have a 25m free as well. Sure would be easy to retro-fit the pools too - just float a plastic redline at the half-way point and blanket the finish line with Omega sensors. Pretty ridiculous, I know. But, so is the 50m free in the Olympics. I don't see how the 25 meter argument holds any weight. The 50 meter was simply changing the race. i.e it lacks a turn. The 25 meter would simply be shortening to shorten.
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