EPT[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 31
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ToT)BrAiN(
Austria899 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
But anyways, I solved it by jungling and letting you dance with him alone. Of course, I'll bear in mind that Vipers have 9999 HP from level 1 and I can't do jack to deter him. If I get hit by Vipers I'll Alt-Tab from now on. Thanks for the lesson. Look, if I'm playing, say, Slardar, and my teammate is a Warlock, and the Viper is clearly running the Warlock down, I'm going to stay in front of the Warlock and make the Viper hit me. And if the Viper is dumb enough to keep hitting the Viper instead of me, he's a goner, or at least he'll take like 50% damage due to Crush and some whacks from the Warlock and I (unless the Warlock is really low, in which case I'll Crush and run too). The same logic applies, in my opinion, to *every hero capable of a stun, no matter how paltry,* against an aggressive lane hero. In my opinion, the trade-off was that, at the very worst, every time he goes after me, if you're position to intercept, he'll take like 4 hits every time he harasses me more than once. And if he harasses me once, I'll send a wand back his way, to trade hits of sorts. If I'm overestimating the effectiveness of SB, whatever, but from the several games I've played him, even early game he's a serious threat to kill, or at least do a tremendous amount of damage via Charge. I mean, he does 100+ damage a hit from his passive skill... Two hits (Charge + Smack) = over 150 damage, plus maybe three hits from Necrolyte in that time span = maybe 300 damage. Viper doesn't have enough health to tank that... And it takes him a good 5-6 hits to kill me, which means there's a fair plenty time to take him down if he wants to really finish me, before he hits level 6. Post-level 6 as far as I know the only option is to teleport. And well, I mentioned, maybe you didn't have Charge, in which case I completely misread what skill build you were going. I figured most people take at least one level of Charge for emergency purposes and running back to a lane quickly. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
First, I took him down to half health... ALONE, at the start. He took me down to half health also, but that is indicative of the "incredible damage differential" between a Viper and a Necrolyte. If you were there, we could have taken him out of exp range and slowed his growth down a bit, but I'm not going to nit-pick that, it was hard to coordinate that without voice-chat. My first death. I was fairly back, you were to the left of me. He runs in a straight line for me and cuts me down, because I can't outrun him. You die afterward, as he has no reason to fear you. Could I have been a bit further back, yeah, the three or so shots I took to last hit/deny probably let him catch up to me. And then my second death was a QQ he had ultimate. If you noticed, not once did he actually hit me when *I hit him* except for that second death, by which point I had no other option, as I'd been hit by his ultimate. ![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9918/omgwtfbbqgw6.jpg) As far as I can tell, the only critical error I made during play was that first death, where I simply didn't haul ass fast enough. In retrospect, I should have turned around and wanded him- he might have died then. ![[image loading]](http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9980/whateverls5.jpg) Looks like I wasn't even that screwed up positionally. He just outran me. 09:27 [Allies] ryugie: you noob 09:28 [Allies] ryugie: thats why 09:29 [Allies] ryugie: youre dying 09:34 [Allies] ryugie: if he strikes you 09:35 [Allies] ryugie: youre dead Lesson learnt from this affair: Vipers have 9,999 HP and do 9,999 damage. They also get a skill that slows. | ||
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paper
13197 Posts
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
I don't know what kind of regen you two were using, but viper has a friggin bottle. Yeah, that's pretty fucked up, but that means he can harass all fucking day, trade 50% hp with just one of you, and that would still be better for viper. It's pretty accurate to say that a viper who's intent on killing you will probably succeed. Especially if he will commit his ult. That doesn't mean he's got 9,999 hp and damage, no one's said that. Strawman arguments are for non-men. A strategy that requires very good communication and trust between the laners would be quite similar to what SL was thinking of. Have SB and necrolyte just in range for necrolyte to get last hits and whatnot, and when the viper comes to hit one or the other, the one being targeted moves back to force the viper to move up a tiny bit more. If the viper actually follows an inch, both of them turn around and hit the crap out of him until he gets away, or until a greater bash lands. Rinse and repeat. Won't work if the targeted one doesn't move back, then move forward at right timing. This would also require fast reaction time, good ping, and good decision making from both laners. I find that charge is, as ryugie said, useless at that point. Viper will simply outrun it. SB's passive at level 1-2 will only add 10-20 damage per hit. Consider that a level 5 viper will deal ~80 dmg per hit, if he lets the poison sink in before he hits a second time. You'd only outdamage him if both guys hit him the WHOLE time he is hitting one guy (impossible, as you're not both ranged). And that one guy would probably still die first. To summarize: ryugie underestimates greater bash, SL underestimates viper's damage. And the best strategy I could think of would only make it playable for the laners vs viper, not advantageous. So yeah, it was a tough situation, and you both tried strategies that would kinda work if both of you chose the same one, but didn't work because you both chose different ones. | ||
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Strafe, viper would definitely be at an advantage against solo bottom shadow fiend. | ||
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Viper vs Shadowfiend equal skilled players Shadowfiend should win every single time 1v1. | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
Ack, read your PMs lol | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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TheMusiC
United States1054 Posts
just chill out and play some fucking pudge wars | ||
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
On January 19 2008 04:38 Heen wrote: Strafe I challenge your SF with my viper :D Ack, read your PMs lol taken, when will we battle? | ||
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
For lanes and ganks, people are good enough to be constantly aware of what is going on and what can be done in each lane. That's not to say that TL dota is quite at that level though... but if takes two people in the lane to decide whether or not to initiate a harass, that harass may already fail to skill reasons. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On January 18 2008 09:22 BottleAbuser wrote: I've tried it, and I don't like the one that Heen linked to because: The key you remap from will always remap to the numpad key, even out of game and when you're trying to type. Mine detects when you're trying to type and lets you type (I've been looking retarded saying "888" instead of "ㅂㅂㅂ" (which equates to "bbb" or back)). Maybe I'll make a GUI. Then it'll be worth giving to people. eh there's already an awesome script program out there for all of this: AutoWarkey http://warkeys.sourceforge.net/tutorialA.php (it comes with WarKeys, another nice program that allows you to change basically every hotkey in the DotA, RoC, TFT.. Align the keys based on a predefined grid layout (like QWER,ASDF,ZXCV grid) and other stuff of course the main features it has, bind any key to each inventory slot, it also has the awesomeness of Always Show Health Bars so you never ever have to hold alt again, disable windows key. it even has the feature: Enter/Esc pauses and resumes hotkeys, so that whenever you hit enter in-game to type a chat msg, it pauses the script so you can type freely, then resumes as you hit enter again. It also pauses the script whenever you alt tab and resumes when you go back to WC3 it can even indicate when script is activated/deactivated by the Sroll Lock light SO Basically, it has everything! | ||
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
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str
Bulgaria192 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
why not just make a personal script yourself that does what you need it to do? here's mine o-O F7::Numpad8 F8::Numpad5 `::Numpad7 WheelUp:: return that took me all of 30 seconds to customize the way i like. (f7 and f8 are mouse buttons, wheelup line disables zooming b/c i have a quite sensitive mwheel) | ||
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paper
13197 Posts
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
hrm... maybe sometime on GGC I consider viper vs nevermore easy, let alone anyone else 1v1 as viper | ||
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