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On August 14 2008 11:27 BottleAbuser wrote:
I guess you could point to board games. Your opponent might move a piece illegally and you'd have to enforce the rule. How is this qualitatively different in a computer game?
I think there is a difference, but am having trouble expressing it clearly.
that's not a user enforced rule.. that's a game enforced rule
a user enforced rule in chess would be something like "your knight can only kill 3 pieces"
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How about "house rules" for games like GoStop? Maybe you're not familiar with that - it's a popular pokerlike game in Korea. Oh. Don't different places have different house rules for different flavors of Poker? Or is that all standardized into different types of poker?
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i'm not familiar with gostop or house rules
if you're talking about different flavors of poker, obviously they are different games (i hope you're not comparing omaha, hold'em, stud, draw as all "poker" as they're barely related to each other aside from the fact that they're all card games. if you're referring to something else, please clarify =))
just to make my position clear
you define a game with rules
you play the game and find out there's a broken strategy
you make rules to prevent the strategy being employed for the continued enjoyment of the game
this game is broken
video game examples:
+ Show Spoiler [examples] +define the game: SF
user rule: akuma is bullshit
define the game: DotA
user rule: bd or meka or arcane or whatever (personally i don't think they'll break the game but whatever)
define the game: starcraft
user rule: worker stack bug or whatever. (yes i just said starcraft is broken. and it technically is, else there would be no need for this rule)
etc.
i can't really think of a card game or a board game example in general, i don't play enough board games
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I was thinking of backdoor and item restrictions and hero restrictions in Dota to be honest. But now that you mention it, Starcraft worker stacking really is pretty broken, isn't it?
Someone with a better justification sound off pls? It's hard to play devil's advocate for a side I can't comprehend.
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There's also the whole argument about whether the user rules are actually necessary. Bill or someone knowledgeable in the 2d fighter scene (like CvS2) can surely give a lengthy argument about roll-cancelling 
edit: card game example
MTG and the banned cards. i don't play mtg or know anything about it, but afaik there exist some retarded combinations that are banned from competitive play. mtg is broken =)
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i think that something easily fixed that hasn't been fixed yet is legal by all means, e.g. backdooring
everyone against backdooring is seriously a noob. it's like saying you can't kill the throne unless an enemy hero is present at the throne or some stupid shit like that. omg creeps can't spawn at the frozen throne, so winning = backdooring?! PARADOX.
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to be honest i don't think dota is broken
why don't we play without these random ass rules and see what happens?
seriously, if you can attack the building, go for it. if you can build 5 arcanes with 5 mekansms go for it. see what happens. does anyone have any legit justifications for the bans at all? did they try it with them and find out that (after a long period of time where ppl had time to adapt and search for a counter strategy) dota degenerates into garbage? judging by the dota community i sincerely doubt it (mostly because the dota community is retarded)
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mek has been fixed a long time ago with the cd before you can get healed again
2+ arcane makes for extremely strong pushes, but i'm all for quicker games o__O
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What actually happens, from my experience, is that nothing changes much - the "imba" situations just don't happen very much because they have their own set of restrictions and costs (and I personally think they aren't imba at all).
Let's keep the discussion more general, though, not specific to dota.
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On August 14 2008 12:16 paper wrote:
mek has been fixed a long time ago with the cd before you can get healed again
2+ arcane makes for extremely strong pushes, but i'm all for quicker games o__O
ah I didn't know about the meka. I thought you couldn't get the armor renewed but the heal still worked. oh well
Let's suppose 5 arcanes makes for a really strong push. First, let's look at the situation - is the push unstoppable? Like, really, is there nothing you can do? If so, is there a way to prevent it from happening in the first place? If not.. well dota is broken, and the arcane ring ban has a merit. (all these "ifs" must be tested out though.. and you can't test it out with these silly bans!)
I'd like to hear an argument from some of the people that voted "user enforced rules != broken game" though. At least to hear the thought process.
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you guys need to go back to the real discussion that should be taking place right now
why the hell is testie one vote ahead of me!
i demand a recount! (and the option of clicking testie removed!)
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DC, we need to get some Diebold machines for polls that you really want to win.
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think about 5 arcanes
any healer can spam heal everytime it cools down (omni, dazz) , any stunner can keep stunning every 7 seconds, any pusher can keep making units (furi, dirge, brood) , any caster with low cd's can keep spamming (lesh, lina)
it basically prolongs the earlier stages of the game way past its prime at the cost of maximizing each hero's exp/gold
this strat obv has its respective counters and forces teams to adapt instead of having some preset strat and screaming imba when they lose ... sort of like backdoor
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
hahaha I dont even know DarkCell at all but I cant help but be a fan now.
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On August 14 2008 14:58 thedeadhaji wrote:
hahaha I dont even know DarkCell at all but I cant help but be a fan now.
but did you vote for him.
:O!!?!?!?
p.s. wtf haji
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im confused as to what backdoor really means
some ppl i've seen says backdooring is attacking towers without any allied creeps nearby
some ppl i've seen says backdooring is going behind towers to attack something
which one is it ?
and btw when did i get 2k posts o.o
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backdooring, to put it simple, is attacking towers when there are no allied creeps nearby. we can debate exactly how that is defined in itself, but i prefer to think of it as base towers and walking in without creep support to attack towers. i could careless if they attack with creeps, the creeps die and they stay; or creeps push one lane, you come in and attack other lanes.
but 'backdooring' by attacking i assume heros behind towers is dumb, that's not backdoor.
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backdooring is generally taken as attacking a building with enemy creeps closer to your base than you
people who ban backdooring are noobs
1. the aim of the game is to destroy the throne, so why do people make it necessary that enemy creeps be there with you to take down a building? it's such an arbitrary rule that people bandwagon on because they don't buy TPs or wards and people like testie don't like it for whatever reason.
2. backdooring is so situational. if i can take down a tower by myself, the game should be over. why do i have to wait for creeps to come? so i can kill them in 2 seconds (as i can solo a tower anyway) and then take down the tower? that's retarded.
3. it has so many counters that banning it (for imbalance? i don't see any other reason) is like a noob screaming that nightstalker is imba. TP, wards, bots, hero-specific skills like those of techies, watchers, eyes in the forest, furi's teleport, etc. if you properly counter the BD and kill the hero, the other side is at a numerical disadvantage and given that the hero could solo a tower, was probably a huge obstacle to your team's push and is now dead
4. what about heroes like clinkz who have high dps and WW and can take down buildings extremely fast? that's your team's fault for letting him farm that much anyway, and it's not that hard to kill him despite whatever tier1 or tier4 items he has. if you say sentries aren't enough to take down a buff clinkz, well, it probably wasn't enough to take him down when he was level 4 and more vulnerable, right? </sarcasm> l2p, then complain about imbalances
generally, winning is 99% determined by hero match-up in TL games; BD is horribly irrelevant and should be 100% legal.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
Nice Polls.
Preferred method of moving your screen?
A - Its a mixture of both actually. I will always use the minimap to go to places fast. I dont really drag the mimi map. I just click on area I need. But within my screen area, I would use my mouse scroll to move around a bit
Hero Color Scheme?
Standardized -- everywhere: you, blue; allies, teal; enemies, red
As someone already said, the scourge colours are harder to see, and with this option, its simple to see if an enemy flickers through the trees, as you get a big red blip. And you dont have to remember all the colours this way.
Music?
My own music - Simply, because Blizz still aint fixed the bug, that after one music track, the music stops. Pretty gay like.
Unit responses / Talking portraits
On
"A game that needs user-enforced (as opposed to game-enforced) rules is broken.
False
Well, this isn't worded the best in my opinion. 'Broken' could mean alot of different things. And 'game' could be Warcraft 3 itself, or the DotA map itself. (presuming you are referring to DotA). I voted False, but I dont know if thats what I mean lol.
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5895/hajicx1.png)
