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On January 25 2011 06:28 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 05:10 Judicator wrote:On January 24 2011 08:08 rabidch wrote:On January 24 2011 05:45 Blyadischa wrote:On January 24 2011 04:07 Judicator wrote:On January 24 2011 01:26 Blyadischa wrote:On January 23 2011 16:26 ganjazerg wrote:
Honestly, while I am thankful for support players, players who mainly play support are not as good of players as most people in their rating region and usually only play support as an excuse to get carried.
reading that post just made me spit my redbull all over my notebook, slam both fists on the table, stand up, rip my shirt apart and throw the entire fucking table out of the window. i hope someday you reach the skill level necessary to realise how wrong you are. the reason i play mostly support, is because whenever i don't THERE IS NO FUCKING SUPPORT. warding is unconsistent and BADLY DONE, flying courier is bought at the 25 min mark, and the support attempts to farm and solo gank. thats the fucking problem. if my lowbob mates could play halfway decent support, i would carry them up to 1800 mmr easily, but the thing is they suck. so i carry them by playing proper support. because YES... playing a hardcarry is actually VERY SIMPLE. No support players? Sounds like you're playing in 1500 pubs. Rarely have I played without a courier or wards. And not playing support doesn't mean playing only hard carry. I mean play anything other than support, ganking, initiating, semi carrying. Playing support is not difficult at all. The assist gold change, chalice, and striders have removed any sort of skill in play support. Playing support now just means ez ganking people and not feeding, which isn't hard at all. I do admit that there is a handful of support players that are good overall, but I'm talking about the majority that DONT know how to farm. You clearly have never played support in farm heavy versions of DotA. EZ ganking isn't EZ ganking, overganking means you get fucked. Talking about HoN, where support players have striders, chalice, and a modified assist gold system that gives more assist gold among other things. What Judicator says is true, but what this says is even truer. DotA doesn't have Striders (thank god) or Chalice. Missing my point, playing support in modern DotA is totally irrelevant to what items you have at your disposal. Support has become infinitely more difficult in execution than in theory with the introduction of Bottle, Wand, etc. The same concept applies to HoN, where the decision making process has become far more complicated since the conception of the support role, that makes playing support more difficult, not easier. The problem lies not within how much gold, items or deaths you have as a support but the effectiveness of those deaths or gold. I have said this a million times, and I'll say it again, the true difficulty in HoN/Dota isn't mechanics or skill, but rather decision making and that aspect certainly does not get easier with more available items and more heroes. Case in point was the introduction of the Bottle in DotA, Supports now had the option to pick up bottle at 600 gold, but at 500 gold is boots, 200 gold is crow, 200 gold is also wards, 200 gold is also counter wards. So what do you do as a support player? Or rather you had to decide what was needed to be done. It certainly wasn't as easy as saying, they're ganking so I'll get wards nor was it I'm ganking so I'll buy Bottle, so it complicates the decision making process more. Asian teams recognized this more than Euros and NAs, hence the difficulties the latter had with the former at LANs. The carry play was pretty much the flash that everyone looked at instead of the fundamentally sound play. Edit: The sound play being the highly specialized nature of Asian strategies during the laning phase. It's a hybridization of the early Scourge side 6.27 strategies and the 48b Blink Dagger era strategy. You're missing my point, the effectiveness of each life and gold you spend as a support is too effective in HoN.
But of course that only applies to you and only you right? To draw a better analogy for the critical thinking challenged, let HoN be a car race. You would think having a "faster" car (in this case more effectiveness) than your opponent would be easy win which is what some people in this thread are arguing for. When in fact, having a faster car would put a greater strain on the driver of the car (in this case the support player) due to the simple fact that every decision you make at a higher speed and its relevant outcomes will be multiplied; problems/mistakes will now be big problems/mistakes and payoffs/rewards will now be big payoffs/rewards. So once again, it boils down to the player/driver skill which I call decision-making for the DotA/HoN players. See my point?
If every support has access to the resources to be effective, it simply makes playing support harder, not easier. Hence my earliest comment, at people like you have clearly never played in a farm-friendly version of DotA in addition to a gank-friendly version. I have no clue if HoN has gone through any of those kind of phases, but what I am describing is very apparent if you have.
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I think the problems with chalice + striders revolves more around the stable of burst-nuking str gankers than support heroes. They currently eclipse everything (thanks to the disproportionate benefit they derive from chalice/striders) for like 80% of your average pub game (in competitive drafting, those heroes are consistently banned) and have caused the gameplay to become very monotone.
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On January 25 2011 07:18 hideo wrote:
I think the problems with chalice + striders revolves more around the stable of burst-nuking str gankers than support heroes. They currently eclipse everything (thanks to the disproportionate benefit they derive from chalice/striders) for like 80% of your average pub game and have caused the gameplay to become very monotone.
Pub games and pugs are irrelevant simply because they're generally more free-flowing and far more opportunities are there. Mistakes and good play can and are masked simply from the often times incoherent teamwork. Sure it gets better as you get higher PSRs but it simply does not compare to playing with 4 others you know/practiced with. Think about the number of times and more importantly how to ward in pubs and pugs compared to a semi-serious match between 2 actual teams.
And what I am debating about isn't on the same level of analysis as your statement. It's not to say you are wrong, but we're talking about two different things. Note that I didn't refer much to Chalice or Striders in my posts nor could I care less about whatever items that's in play or vogue on which similarly heroes. It's relatively minor in the discussion of the roles/skills of playing support.
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On January 25 2011 05:34 L wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 15:06 [TYG]Transcend wrote:On January 21 2011 13:33 OmgIRok wrote:On January 21 2011 13:26 [TYG]Transcend wrote:
I think this thread needs to be moar lively. Rabid keeps going on Clan Chat asking for buttsex but just afks.
On a happier note, no one plays doter anymore? how is it happier if you think that no1 plays dota anymore? you fucking faggot me n rabid n nitro still play User was warned for this post Brohem, you got warned. And trust me, anything is happier than what Rabid asks for every time he goes on clan chat. On the happiest note, I am going to buy DotA2 for 4 lucky individuals, stay tuned. Wait, things just got better, 5 people cause we'll need a ringer/sub. The bad part of this is you have to get vouched into DPIH. ): and not be a flaming faggot, that's the hard part. P.S. umad? Tygs, you don't even know what dota is. Go back to losing at warlocks.
On January 25 2011 05:34 L wrote:
And soldiers.
Naw man, been playing DotA again. Icegliders moar fun than lox anyway, I'm good with that. Also, I raped face in soldiers what?
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On January 25 2011 07:06 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 06:28 Blyadischa wrote:On January 25 2011 05:10 Judicator wrote:On January 24 2011 08:08 rabidch wrote:On January 24 2011 05:45 Blyadischa wrote:On January 24 2011 04:07 Judicator wrote:On January 24 2011 01:26 Blyadischa wrote:On January 23 2011 16:26 ganjazerg wrote:
Honestly, while I am thankful for support players, players who mainly play support are not as good of players as most people in their rating region and usually only play support as an excuse to get carried.
reading that post just made me spit my redbull all over my notebook, slam both fists on the table, stand up, rip my shirt apart and throw the entire fucking table out of the window. i hope someday you reach the skill level necessary to realise how wrong you are. the reason i play mostly support, is because whenever i don't THERE IS NO FUCKING SUPPORT. warding is unconsistent and BADLY DONE, flying courier is bought at the 25 min mark, and the support attempts to farm and solo gank. thats the fucking problem. if my lowbob mates could play halfway decent support, i would carry them up to 1800 mmr easily, but the thing is they suck. so i carry them by playing proper support. because YES... playing a hardcarry is actually VERY SIMPLE. No support players? Sounds like you're playing in 1500 pubs. Rarely have I played without a courier or wards. And not playing support doesn't mean playing only hard carry. I mean play anything other than support, ganking, initiating, semi carrying. Playing support is not difficult at all. The assist gold change, chalice, and striders have removed any sort of skill in play support. Playing support now just means ez ganking people and not feeding, which isn't hard at all. I do admit that there is a handful of support players that are good overall, but I'm talking about the majority that DONT know how to farm. You clearly have never played support in farm heavy versions of DotA. EZ ganking isn't EZ ganking, overganking means you get fucked. Talking about HoN, where support players have striders, chalice, and a modified assist gold system that gives more assist gold among other things. What Judicator says is true, but what this says is even truer. DotA doesn't have Striders (thank god) or Chalice. Missing my point, playing support in modern DotA is totally irrelevant to what items you have at your disposal. Support has become infinitely more difficult in execution than in theory with the introduction of Bottle, Wand, etc. The same concept applies to HoN, where the decision making process has become far more complicated since the conception of the support role, that makes playing support more difficult, not easier. The problem lies not within how much gold, items or deaths you have as a support but the effectiveness of those deaths or gold. I have said this a million times, and I'll say it again, the true difficulty in HoN/Dota isn't mechanics or skill, but rather decision making and that aspect certainly does not get easier with more available items and more heroes. Case in point was the introduction of the Bottle in DotA, Supports now had the option to pick up bottle at 600 gold, but at 500 gold is boots, 200 gold is crow, 200 gold is also wards, 200 gold is also counter wards. So what do you do as a support player? Or rather you had to decide what was needed to be done. It certainly wasn't as easy as saying, they're ganking so I'll get wards nor was it I'm ganking so I'll buy Bottle, so it complicates the decision making process more. Asian teams recognized this more than Euros and NAs, hence the difficulties the latter had with the former at LANs. The carry play was pretty much the flash that everyone looked at instead of the fundamentally sound play. Edit: The sound play being the highly specialized nature of Asian strategies during the laning phase. It's a hybridization of the early Scourge side 6.27 strategies and the 48b Blink Dagger era strategy. You're missing my point, the effectiveness of each life and gold you spend as a support is too effective in HoN. But of course that only applies to you and only you right? To draw a better analogy for the critical thinking challenged, let HoN be a car race. You would think having a "faster" car (in this case more effectiveness) than your opponent would be easy win which is what some people in this thread are arguing for. When in fact, having a faster car would put a greater strain on the driver of the car (in this case the support player) due to the simple fact that every decision you make at a higher speed and its relevant outcomes will be multiplied; problems/mistakes will now be big problems/mistakes and payoffs/rewards will now be big payoffs/rewards. So once again, it boils down to the player/driver skill which I call decision-making for the DotA/HoN players. See my point? If every support has access to the resources to be effective, it simply makes playing support harder, not easier. Hence my earliest comment, at people like you have clearly never played in a farm-friendly version of DotA in addition to a gank-friendly version. I have no clue if HoN has gone through any of those kind of phases, but what I am describing is very apparent if you have.
A faster car would put a strain on the driver's technical skill, and would help decision making, (e.g. can I control the speed to turn and not die?). I would agree with you that in Dota and HoN decision making is what separates the skill of players rather than any sort of technical skill, so your analogy is a bad one.
The items in HoN make decision making much easier. Striders make getting a stun off and allowing for a stun combo easy as hell. The decision making process in a gank used to be, if I go now, will I get there in time, and will I be able to get out. With striders getting there in time is easy, you don't have to wait in the side of the lanes and wait, you can just run straight up to a person and manage to get a stun off. Getting out might be a problem, but with the assist gold change the gold you get is > than the gold lost from the probability of dying.
I would tend to agree with you if the items did not exist in HoN, but judging from your comment of "I have no clue if HoN has gone through..." I would assume that you have never played HoN, or haven't played in the recent months. The once difficult ganks that took good timing, positioning, and decision making have become an easy win/win situation to just run in and hit shit.
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Yeah and the way you post shows how much you actually understand the game. If you think ganking takes no skill or effort, then you are playing baddies regardless of PSR or whatever stats. I would venture to say that you have never played on a team against another team at a high level. Until you do, you really can't comprehend what I am saying, your mind can understand it but you don't have a clue about the actual execution.
Case in point, you think ganking is just running in and getting a kill even to go as far as saying dying isn't a big deal. That's a poor gank, but it's also a gank that HoN lets players get away with due to it's system, but it hardly matters. The reason I am applying DotA's concepts isn't because I haven't played HoN, but rather HoN hasn't gone through enough strategical iterations to force players to optimize their play. You know why? Because that exact style of play is what was popular for a long time in DotA until someone came along and stomped all over it and then the Asians came and stomped all over that.
But you know what? Some day, some team in HoN will optimize their ganking with Chalice and Striders to a dominating status or some team will figure out a pretty dominating way to counter that. Most likely both. That pattern is pretty apparent in all team-based games.
You also can't comprehend my analogy, because your interpretation is pretty far off. Because if you understood, then you would understand that the difficulty doesn't lie with whether you should/could/how to gank with chalice and striders, but how to approach the same problem posed by the opposing team. That's what separates competent support and great support.
And if you think these items are broken in HoN, then you clearly have never had to face the gayness that is Icefrog development. The first few iterations of Bottle are infinitely better than anything HoN will ever provide for supports.
And you very obviously have no idea what decision-making or rather my definition of decision making.
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On January 25 2011 12:27 Judicator wrote:
Yeah and the way you post shows how much you actually understand the game. If you think ganking takes no skill or effort, then you are playing baddies regardless of PSR or whatever stats. I would venture to say that you have never played on a team against another team at a high level. Until you do, you really can't comprehend what I am saying, your mind can understand it but you don't have a clue about the actual execution.
Case in point, you think ganking is just running in and getting a kill even to go as far as saying dying isn't a big deal. That's a poor gank, but it's also a gank that HoN lets players get away with due to it's system, but it hardly matters. The reason I am applying DotA's concepts isn't because I haven't played HoN, but rather HoN hasn't gone through enough strategical iterations to force players to optimize their play. You know why? Because that exact style of play is what was popular for a long time in DotA until someone came along and stomped all over it and then the Asians came and stomped all over that.
But you know what? Some day, some team in HoN will optimize their ganking with Chalice and Striders to a dominating status or some team will figure out a pretty dominating way to counter that. Most likely both. That pattern is pretty apparent in all team-based games.
You also can't comprehend my analogy, because your interpretation is pretty far off. Because if you understood, then you would understand that the difficulty doesn't lie with whether you should/could/how to gank with chalice and striders, but how to approach the same problem posed by the opposing team. That's what separates competent support and great support.
And if you think these items are broken in HoN, then you clearly have never had to face the gayness that is Icefrog development. The first few iterations of Bottle are infinitely better than anything HoN will ever provide for supports.
And you very obviously have no idea what decision-making or rather my definition of decision making.
You have made one great point. Whenever I argue I should use vague definitions and continually argue the same disproven contentions, then call into question my opponent's ability to play and tell them that they aren't qualified to understand anything I'm saying.
The argument was about support players being too easy to play, while you're post went something like this.
1. You are bad you don't have any idea of what I'm talking about.
2. HoN makes support characters easy, but you're bad and so I'm right. Some shit about paradigm shifts that has no relevance to why this argument started in the first place.
3. You're bad, you can't comprehend my irrelevant analogy.
4. You think chalice/striders are broken? LOL I'm going to give you an example of imbalance with something that has been changed long ago.
I'm going to predict your next post will go something along the lines of.
1. You're bad.
2. You're bad so you simply can't understand why any of my obscure arguments are relevant to why the argument began in the first place.
3. You're bad.
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that's judicator in a nutshell, welcome to the hon thread.
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On January 25 2011 15:56 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
that's judicator in a nutshell, welcome to the hon thread.
front page material?
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Does Judicator realise striders give crazy movespeed? I remember him spooging over movespeed a 100 pages or whatever back.
As some cool dude said, the thing striders/chalice make crazy are the str gankers, not true support heroes. You think anyone goes chalice on the pimpstar himself, Glacius?
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On January 25 2011 15:56 DevAzTaYtA wrote:
that's judicator in a nutshell, welcome to the hon thread.
Devaz! When DotA2 hits come back to meee!
Also it's DotA thread as well. >_>
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User was warned for this post
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On January 25 2011 16:07 Turbovolver wrote:
Does Judicator realise striders give crazy movespeed? I remember him spooging over movespeed a 100 pages or whatever back.
As some cool dude said, the thing striders/chalice make crazy are the str gankers, not true support heroes. You think anyone goes chalice on the pimpstar himself, Glacius?
Oh yes, I realize that's what Striders do, I do read the HoN changelogs for shits and giggles and also to get an idea how DotA2 might get balanced/tweaked/updated. I am not arguing whether Striders/Chalice is balanced or not, but rather the fact that more effective items does not simplify the decision-making process but rather complicate it. On top of that, it makes playing support more difficult and not easier at higher skill levels (team versus team) like some people like to claim. That much is apparent if you ever had to play against the original Blink Dagger, and the original Phase Boots. Different items, different game, but end result is the same.
The reason I brought up the "you clearly have never played a farm friendly version" is because those versions are stupidly easy for support and you have to be some special kind of idiot to fail at that role simply because your item choices were easy, 200 gold on wards were more cost-effective than anything you could possibly do. But then again, clearly warding was so hard and difficult.
Edit:
And no I am not telling you how you're not qualified, I am telling you to start thinking about the issue from a different perspective, simply because you are so stuck on the fact that X items let Y heroes gank easier so that makes Y heroes easier. I am just saying it's not as simple as that and if you put a little thought into it, you probably can think of some effective counters.
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clearly ability to win 1v1 mid mirror matches are the only show of skill. You two plague vs plague go.
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On January 26 2011 00:30 Wysp wrote:
clearly ability to win 1v1 mid mirror matches are the only show of skill. You two plague vs plague go.
I have no doubt he would win. 
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On January 25 2011 16:14 OmgIRok wrote:
User was warned for this post
omgwtffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
OmgIRok is a punch ass bitch edit: and isnt it against the rules to do that
OH WOW HAHA CHUANS ON LGD.SGTY??????
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I'm liking it... i have no idea how they'll set up their roster so this is all speculation, but I think it gives them more flexibility when they're picking side and mid solos now. Like they can pick a farmer now rather than utility/teamfighter/ganker to set up a dual carry strategy (like yaphets/zhou Nv.cn) rather than their traditional all-eggs-in-one-basket ZSMJ solo carry.
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On January 26 2011 06:43 hideo wrote:
I'm liking it... i have no idea how they'll set up their roster so this is all speculation, but I think it gives them more flexibility when they're picking side and mid solos now. Like they can pick a farmer now rather than utility/teamfighter/ganker to set up a dual carry strategy (like yaphets/zhou Nv.cn) rather than their traditional all-eggs-in-one-basket ZSMJ solo carry.
thats what i thought too, i thought it would be better when 830 joined since they could get more carries in but he ended up playing a lot of support and yyf is sticking to solo n' gank support and semicarries, and benz was a double support. they obviously made new strats to work with the team but their most effective batrider clockwerk always ended up getting banned. i've always thought zsmj to be the weakest out of burning-zhou-zsmj primarily because he isnt as versatile as burning (can play almost any type of carry) or zhou (hard carry + pugna + visage)
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LOL a second time LOLLLLL
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On January 26 2011 06:51 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 06:43 hideo wrote:
I'm liking it... i have no idea how they'll set up their roster so this is all speculation, but I think it gives them more flexibility when they're picking side and mid solos now. Like they can pick a farmer now rather than utility/teamfighter/ganker to set up a dual carry strategy (like yaphets/zhou Nv.cn) rather than their traditional all-eggs-in-one-basket ZSMJ solo carry. thats what i thought too, i thought it would be better when 830 joined since they could get more carries in but he ended up playing a lot of support and yyf is sticking to solo n' gank support and semicarries, and benz was a double support. they obviously made new strats to work with the team but their most effective batrider clockwerk always ended up getting banned. i've always thought zsmj to be the weakest out of burning-zhou-zsmj primarily because he isnt as versatile as burning (can play almost any type of carry) or zhou (hard carry + pugna + visage)
I dunno how this one will play out to be honest. Chinese teams are looking more and more like the NA teams of the past.
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EPT
