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On March 19 2025 21:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2025 18:49 Ludwigvan wrote:maybe I'll make a custom game, when the editor launches. It is pretty similar to the sc2 editor. I hope it will be easy to import 3D models, sounds and videos. Also I hope they will support campaigns. but I will have to wait and see if the game gets a bigger player base, and improves, gets better steam ratings. it also depends on who has the rights of the custom game. EDIT: I just read the End User License Agreement (I had read it before but forgot). They can do whatever they want with your user generated content. I mean from their perspective it makes sense. From my perspective it makes sense to not make a custom map. E User generated Content: You are responsible for your own user generated content ("UGC"). When you contribute UGC, you grant to Frost Giant, its licensors and licensees a non-exclusive, perpetual, transferable, worldwide, sublicensable license to copy, reproduce, fix, modify, adapt, translate, reformat, create derivative works of, add to and delete from, rearrange and transpose, manufacture, publish, distribute, sell, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, provide access to, broadcast or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC, or any portion of it, in any manner or form and in any medium or forum, whether now known or later devised, without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party. You also grant to all other users who can access and use your UGC via the Product the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your UGC on or through the relevant Product hosting platform without further notice, attribution or compensation to you. playstormgate.com Aside from principle, which I understand, is this a major problem?
no. I just thought out loud if it would make sense to me to use the Stormgate Editor for an RTS Project. There are two reasons to use it, I think. 1. If they had a big (rts) audience. 2. Pathfinding is already included, which you don't if you use other engines (they have a* pathfinding but not as refined as Stromgate or SC2 with multiple units, ai, etc.) or if you program it on your own. This is not easy to implement yourself and there are no other recent good engines that provide it like sc2 (as far as I know). Maybe I could use Spring Engine, I will see, but this is off topic.
I don't want to be too rude here. The Editor looks fine. there are other reasons to use the Stormgate Editor: Easier than programming, free ( I guess), fast switch between Game and Editor possible, similar to the SC2 Editor.
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Northern Ireland25362 Posts
On March 20 2025 02:25 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2025 21:46 WombaT wrote:On March 19 2025 18:49 Ludwigvan wrote:maybe I'll make a custom game, when the editor launches. It is pretty similar to the sc2 editor. I hope it will be easy to import 3D models, sounds and videos. Also I hope they will support campaigns. but I will have to wait and see if the game gets a bigger player base, and improves, gets better steam ratings. it also depends on who has the rights of the custom game. EDIT: I just read the End User License Agreement (I had read it before but forgot). They can do whatever they want with your user generated content. I mean from their perspective it makes sense. From my perspective it makes sense to not make a custom map. E User generated Content: You are responsible for your own user generated content ("UGC"). When you contribute UGC, you grant to Frost Giant, its licensors and licensees a non-exclusive, perpetual, transferable, worldwide, sublicensable license to copy, reproduce, fix, modify, adapt, translate, reformat, create derivative works of, add to and delete from, rearrange and transpose, manufacture, publish, distribute, sell, transfer, rent, lease, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, provide access to, broadcast or otherwise transmit and communicate the UGC, or any portion of it, in any manner or form and in any medium or forum, whether now known or later devised, without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party. You also grant to all other users who can access and use your UGC via the Product the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your UGC on or through the relevant Product hosting platform without further notice, attribution or compensation to you. playstormgate.com Aside from principle, which I understand, is this a major problem? no. I just thought out loud if it would make sense to me to use the Stormgate Editor for an RTS Project. There are two reasons to use it, I think. 1. If they had a big (rts) audience. 2. Pathfinding is already included, which you don't if you use other engines (they have a* pathfinding but not as refined as Stromgate or SC2 with multiple units, ai, etc.) or if you program it on your own. This is not easy to implement yourself and there are no other recent good engines that provide it like sc2 (as far as I know). Maybe I could use Spring Engine, I will see, but this is off topic. I don't want to be too rude here. The Editor looks fine. there are other reasons to use the Stormgate Editor: Easier than programming, free ( I guess), fast switch between Game and Editor possible, similar to the SC2 Editor.
Yeah those are all pretty damn understandable. I’ve just seen a fair few on the SG subreddit stating it’s the ToS that would put them off making content, over and above the things you’re talking about.
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On March 20 2025 00:29 WombaT wrote:
You can’t claim ownership of game mechanics and genres, luckily for the industry or it would never have got off the ground.
Nintendo is doing that right now.
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Northern Ireland25362 Posts
Trying is not necessarily succeeding
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On March 21 2025 08:05 WombaT wrote:
Trying is not necessarily succeeding
Nintendo is forcing a studio with far fewer resources to spend what little money it has on legal matters rather than making games. Nintendo is scum.
Also, it happened with the Nemesis system and Warner Brothers. They then shuttered teh studio that made the games that uses the Nemesis system effectively ending the game mechanic.
what a wonderful world making video games is.
“One can’t have something for nothing. Happiness has got to be paid for.” 
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I re-installed SG yesterday to give myself an updated perspective on it. I had an urge to click a lot that wasn't being quenched by anything else, so I thought SG was the natural choice over the no-inventory-hotkey Warcraft 3 and the ultra-sweaty and turn-rate-nightmare of NA Brood War ladder on cheap wifi. At the end of the day, I'm 35 and rarely play hard games anymore, but frequently have the desire to. They're really the only ones I want to play.
So I loaded up a vs AI game of Stormgate just to remember what was going on and get my hands warm. Right away, I couldn't shift + add my command centers into the same control group. Then I had trouble just moving units around because one of my command centers would randomly end up in an army control group, and then my hangar bay would end up in my upgrade building (0) control group, and so on and so on. Long story short, I found the process of grouping units and moving them around to be horrible. Like as bad or worse than Aoe4. A nonstarter. I checked all my settings to make sure auto control groups weren't enabled. I couldn't find anything. Auto control groups are a truly terrible feature so it makes it worse that I am mentally fighting the fear of this being enabled on every update or patch. But still, I always think hey, maybe this is why playing this game is so frustrating: it's not actually the game but some setting. Which is it? I have no fucking idea! But I blame the game all the same.
This all hardened the reality that I want something pretty simple and straightforward and can't seem to find it anywhere.
I literally just want a fun mechanical RTS to play and have reduced my expectations quite a bit. I will take Heroes of the Storm on wheels at this point. Give me Heroes of the Storm 6v6 with 1 player on each side doing macro. That game is fun.
Instead of a sparkling new shit sandwich, I'd be happy with a couple pieces of bread.
Will I get it? Absolutely not. Curb Your Enthusiasm theme plays
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On March 23 2025 00:59 RogerChillingworth wrote:
I re-installed SG yesterday to give myself an updated perspective on it. I had an urge to click a lot that wasn't being quenched by anything else, so I thought SG was the natural choice over the no-inventory-hotkey Warcraft 3 and the ultra-sweaty and turn-rate-nightmare of NA Brood War ladder on cheap wifi. At the end of the day, I'm 35 and rarely play hard games anymore, but frequently have the desire to. They're really the only ones I want to play.
So I loaded up a vs AI game of Stormgate just to remember what was going on and get my hands warm. Right away, I couldn't shift + add my command centers into the same control group. Then I had trouble just moving units around because one of my command centers would randomly end up in an army control group, and then my hangar bay would end up in my upgrade building (0) control group, and so on and so on. Long story short, I found the process of grouping units and moving them around to be horrible. Like as bad or worse than Aoe4. A nonstarter. I checked all my settings to make sure auto control groups weren't enabled. I couldn't find anything. Auto control groups are a truly terrible feature so it makes it worse that I am mentally fighting the fear of this being enabled on every update or patch. But still, I always think hey, maybe this is why playing this game is so frustrating: it's not actually the game but some setting. Which is it? I have no fucking idea! But I blame the game all the same.
This all hardened the reality that I want something pretty simple and straightforward and can't seem to find it anywhere.
I literally just want a fun mechanical RTS to play and have reduced my expectations quite a bit. I will take Heroes of the Storm on wheels at this point. Give me Heroes of the Storm 6v6 with 1 player on each side doing macro. That game is fun.
Instead of a sparkling new shit sandwich, I'd be happy with a couple pieces of bread.
Will I get it? Absolutely not. Curb Your Enthusiasm theme plays
>i want hard games
>Heroes of the storm is fun
Which is it? Also, not playing warcraft 3 simply because there aren't inventory hotkeys seems a bit silly to me. if u want mechanically challenging games i noticed u didnt mention SC2 why is that? if WC3, SC1, SG arent your favorites? also u can try battle aces. the base building macro isnt really there but u get income so fast u are constantly clicking something on your keyboard if u want optimal unit counts at all times.
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Northern Ireland25362 Posts
On March 23 2025 00:59 RogerChillingworth wrote:
I re-installed SG yesterday to give myself an updated perspective on it. I had an urge to click a lot that wasn't being quenched by anything else, so I thought SG was the natural choice over the no-inventory-hotkey Warcraft 3 and the ultra-sweaty and turn-rate-nightmare of NA Brood War ladder on cheap wifi. At the end of the day, I'm 35 and rarely play hard games anymore, but frequently have the desire to. They're really the only ones I want to play.
So I loaded up a vs AI game of Stormgate just to remember what was going on and get my hands warm. Right away, I couldn't shift + add my command centers into the same control group. Then I had trouble just moving units around because one of my command centers would randomly end up in an army control group, and then my hangar bay would end up in my upgrade building (0) control group, and so on and so on. Long story short, I found the process of grouping units and moving them around to be horrible. Like as bad or worse than Aoe4. A nonstarter. I checked all my settings to make sure auto control groups weren't enabled. I couldn't find anything. Auto control groups are a truly terrible feature so it makes it worse that I am mentally fighting the fear of this being enabled on every update or patch. But still, I always think hey, maybe this is why playing this game is so frustrating: it's not actually the game but some setting. Which is it? I have no fucking idea! But I blame the game all the same.
This all hardened the reality that I want something pretty simple and straightforward and can't seem to find it anywhere.
I literally just want a fun mechanical RTS to play and have reduced my expectations quite a bit. I will take Heroes of the Storm on wheels at this point. Give me Heroes of the Storm 6v6 with 1 player on each side doing macro. That game is fun.
Instead of a sparkling new shit sandwich, I'd be happy with a couple pieces of bread.
Will I get it? Absolutely not. Curb Your Enthusiasm theme plays
That’s a shame, I think it’s something they’ve actually really got right, for the most part now you can properly rebind, which bloody annoyed me before for its absence. But I haven’t seen anything like your issues in the SG subreddit and it’s plenty full of criticisms.
I think you can rebind inv keys in WC3 these days btw, for what that’s worth.
Also being 35 myself and gradually losing both the ability and interest to play a ton. I think the window where I take some new game somewhat seriously is closing, so hurry up dagnabbit!
Honestly at this stage if I wanna hit some bucket list challenges of being a decent competitive player in an RTS I’ll probably just return to and properly grind WC3 and SC2, dabble with a few others.
I never played WC3 genuinely competitively, it’s also probably my favourite game ever but I’m not like, retreading something I had done. It’s somewhat new territory for me if I do go that route.
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Yeah at 35 I'm not super competitive, and never really have been, but I still enjoy a challenging and mechanical game. They are way more fulfilling and expressive. WC3 is great and I've thought about it, but I want something new that isn't super figured out.
There's so much to say about RTS and all these modern efforts that doesn't really belong in this thread. I'd just be repeating myself anyway. I guess the reason I posted is because I wanted to play a bit of Stormgate ladder after almost a year off but couldn't get past the interface issues—maybe issues that I experience more than others? I don't know. But it made me think that if the game were a damn gas to play, maybe I'd power through.
People just can't seem to make a RTS that's a ton of fun to play. Like to the levels that people find Smash Bros or Valorant or League fun. Kinda wild cause I feel like it's very possible.
At the end of the day though, it's true that if you want your vision out there then you have to do it yourself. It's an overwhelming thought but useful for not being constantly frustrated or irrationally expect other people to essentially do the work for you. Definitely something I, personally, still need to fully accept. And then maybe I'll let shit ride and not be as critical.
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Oof looks like the player count has dropped to just 2x a few times
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People just can't seem to make a RTS that's a ton of fun to play. Like to the levels that people find Smash Bros or Valorant or League fun. Kinda wild cause I feel like it's very possible.
What is fun to you?
The pattern we have seen with almost all RTS games being released or in progress over the past few years (excluding Battle Aces) is a somewhat mixed version of Wc3 and Sc2 with some QoL improvement - but also very little real innovation.
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On April 04 2025 22:53 jhrtgdfwse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2025 15:43 Hider wrote:People just can't seem to make a RTS that's a ton of fun to play. Like to the levels that people find Smash Bros or Valorant or League fun. Kinda wild cause I feel like it's very possible. What is fun to you? The pattern we have seen with almost all RTS games being released or in progress over the past few years (excluding Battle Aces) is a somewhat mixed version of Wc3 and Sc2 with some QoL improvement - but also very little real innovation. RTS has been done to death in the past. Those innovations would just repeat everything.
There are so many unique new micro interactions that no game has properly experimented with. The only thing that's been experimented with has been various ways of catering to casual players by slowing down the game with a few QoL improvements.
Very little realm attempts have been towards "how can we add awesome micro opportunities that looks awesome and inspiring". Stormgate/Immortals gates of pyre, Zerospace and Battle Aces are imo all very dull from a micro-perspective. I don't see any fights thinking "wow that looks awesome - can't wait to try that out".
Take a look at all the the shit we see in MOBA's. I think there are many interesting abilities that could be adapted to an RTS - at least it's worth experimenting with.
Then I would also argue noone has really tried a "big army + big map + fast-paced (fast moving units with lethality closer to Sc1/sc2 than wc3) + let players start with an army and rework what we think early-game vs mid-game vs late-game is "supposed to mean".
All the developers tend to end up in the same group thinking with the same diagnostic. The changes they are making lack vision.
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On April 04 2025 15:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +People just can't seem to make a RTS that's a ton of fun to play. Like to the levels that people find Smash Bros or Valorant or League fun. Kinda wild cause I feel like it's very possible. What is fun to you? The pattern we have seen with almost all RTS games being released or in progress over the past few years (excluding Battle Aces) is a somewhat mixed version of Wc3 and Sc2 with some QoL improvement - but also very little real innovation.
The most important thing is player expression I think. You have a great game if 10 players of the same race can all exercise their unique style and find success with it.
Fun is a bit abstract and subjective, but I feel like there are some universal truths—that can act as a base layer to build upon—that most people find fun, like:
- min-maxing value
- player limitations
- quality difficulty curve (starts somewhat difficult and can get very difficult/rewarding as you improve)
- unique unit/hero personality and movement
- non-linear interaction (my lurker defends a ramp)
- skill shots
- mobility skills
- robust animation (goes a long way)
- robust and creative sound (more important than people think)
Anything that gives a player more room to create an interesting scenario will always be fun. But to do that, the devs need to lay the groundwork for this to happen. Everyone complains that Brood War and Warcraft are “clunky”, among other things, but those games have the groundwork for interesting things to happen in the game. Modern games do not.
In the case of Brood War, for example, I find it fun to engage in the very steep mechanical challenge. The sheer difficulty level and limitations on you, the player, having to do everything manually, creates a very fun environment in 1v1. A sort of potato sack race. As you say, Hider, modern devs have totally thrown the baby out with the bathwater and strongly resist making truly challenging games. It's one of these arguments I can't win because it seems like the majority of players don't want to play 1v1 at all, let alone be truly challenged by something. We see it across the board, not just in games. But my argument has always been that if you make a really fun game that allows people to be expressive, and create some sweet, immersive tutorialization, people will rise to the occasion. At worst, you have a niche but die-hard community that will play your game for decades.
I personally think there is an ocean of potential for RTS and fun things that haven't been explored yet, but don't think they will be explored until the more tepid efforts fail and people get fed up with the slop machine.
I would love to visually simulate what I'm talking about and share how I would make a RTS, but just feel like my ideas would get stolen and I'd get nothing back. Womp womp.
edit: should clarify that i don't think SG is slop or anything. more that stuff people are putting out feels generally weak these days. Could just be me tho.
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Doublepostmybad
This is me mostly ranting anyway. There are things in SG, for instance, that were quite fun when I played. But I would come back next patch and find them not as fun anymore. Was pretty bummed by the direction things took from Oct 2023 to EA.
Also was never a huge fan of the SC2-style direction that seemed to get more baked into the game as time went on.
If I can ever not run into the interface issues I experience and not have simple hotkey malfunctions that don't exist in other games, then I'll definitely keep popping in and give it the benefit of the doubt. But I don't think it'll ever be the game that serves Brood War or Warcraft 3 fans. Those decisions were made early on and kept being made, so it can only achieve so much imo.
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Good news for stormgate is it's main competitor StarCraft just got knocked down a peg. I don't think it's playerbase will be effected so u can't really use that argument where they all thrive together and it's better for the scene, no just the esports got smaller. If stormgate can make something of itself with 1.0 and do a esports circuit like they said they wanna do, SC2 pros will be more likely to switch over now.
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Northern Ireland25362 Posts
Few fine posts there and I agree with much.
One thing I’d add is it feels sometimes the balance between simple, core units that have certain characteristics which make for interesting interactions, and complex ones with abilities is also a little off in some modern attempts I’ve played.
I’m probably phrasing it badly, what I mean is like, you need core, simple units that have extra utility tactically and are fun to use.
Look at BW, lings and zealots just run around and hit things, fundamentally. Their animation, sound and vibe is on point One is speedy and quite fragile, one is beefy and manly. They’re quite different units, that are used differently despite effectively being units that hit other units in melee range. Lings can run around and be a complete pest, zealots can suicide from shuttles in many fashion. They can both mine drag. You can body block, surround with em.
I guess in a roundabout fashion what I’m finding lately is x game isn’t really nailing its core units and their very ‘core’ micro. For me anyway. You can get a lot of satisfying micro if you do.
Then, to compensate it feels every new game I try, almost every single unit has some kind of ability, which can be problematic if you don’t have the ‘core’ micro down.
I’m all for abilities, especially interesting ones, but for want of a better analogy it’s like making a shooter with really cool weapons, but the movement and general gunplay feels bad.
More broadly, I think this approach does also create genuine readability issues if it’s ability city.
Like you end up almost having to gauge cooldowns and it can get a bit messy IMO
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Yea, totally. Games have gotten very linear and streamlined in their movement. I think abilities are all that's left to fill the void. I partially blame consumers, but ultimately it's the devs' job to lead the way. I remember when Flash was playing Random in ASL and a few of the pros commented on his "good zealot hits". These days, everyone from Silver league up can do move-shot micro or kite well in Stormgate or Battle Aces. Just nothing to it. Doomed.
You need a bit of clunk. It really makes it. I've always personally gravitated toward the clunky ass units. The medium-heavies and heavies. Their clunk is always compensated by something else. Usually a strong hit or something. Matter of taste I guess but it adds texture. There's a tiny bit of this in Stormgate. There used to be more. There was never a ton. Everything just glides around and is super slippery. Back in alpha and beta, I remember nothing but complaints about any sort of clunk, or when the unit pathing wasn't perfect when given a lazy command halfway across the map. Those same people stop playing ladder after 3 losses. Just doomed.
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Northern Ireland25362 Posts
On April 05 2025 10:06 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Yea, totally. Games have gotten very linear and streamlined in their movement. I think abilities are all that's left to fill the void. I partially blame consumers, but ultimately it's the devs' job to lead the way. I remember when Flash was playing Random in ASL and a few of the pros commented on his "good zealot hits". These days, everyone from Silver league up can do move-shot micro or kite well in Stormgate or Battle Aces. Just nothing to it. Doomed.
You need a bit of clunk. It really makes it. I've always personally gravitated toward the clunky ass units. The medium-heavies and heavies. Their clunk is always compensated by something else. Usually a strong hit or something. Matter of taste I guess but it adds texture. There's a tiny bit of this in Stormgate. There used to be more. There was never a ton. Everything just glides around and is super slippery. Back in alpha and beta, I remember nothing but complaints about any sort of clunk, or when the unit pathing wasn't perfect when given a lazy command halfway across the map. Those same people stop playing ladder after 3 losses. Just doomed.
Without a bit of clunk, so to speak, the units with the best numbers on paper are just the best units.
Ya need it! It doesn’t have to be in the form of janky pathing, or UI limitations, but ya need the clunk. I think I’ll adopt this term from now on.
Outside of AoE, there’s nothing that beats MMM in SC2, in the hands of a skilled player. You can buttery smooth, stutter step to your heart’s content, or focus fire stragglers etc.
Archers in WC3? Sure, AoE hits them like a truck, but they’ve other vulnerabilities. They’re slow, they can’t stutter step on a sixpence and yes, you can’t control more than 12 at once.
Fuck I still have nightmares of a game I played like 15+ years ago where I was crazy ahead versus a human and fed my big, unwieldy bears into a meat grinder that was their base, trying to finish the game.
You even see that in an SC2 which has generally buttery smooth controls, with ultras, good in an open field, oh dear don’t try to attack into an opponent who’s fortified and has chokes.
The problem I’m having with a bunch of modern RTS games is, lack of clunk. Clunk can be good!
Without clunk, and without making ranged units utter, utter garbage, they will always, always be better than melee units as volume increases. Always.
It’s a problem, and it’s one that’s continually made worse by making these games easier to play. I’m not advocating necessarily going full BW/WC3 and limiting controls back to 12 units, but it is a problem.
My vague tinkering in something like Stormgate, the tournaments I’ve watched it’s frequently just a battle of constant stutter-stepping and not that much else.
You don’t have the melee micro, the body blocks, the surrounds, the flanks so much because of how ranged DPS, and the ability to control as much as you want just so completely outscales it.
This isn’t to say it doesn’t exist, it does, the game enables it, it just falls off hugely with scale, and it seemingly gets worse with every new game.
You see some of the sickest micro battles in SC2 where it’s like 60-70 supply and there’s a couple of each early game unit, and people doing insane things. Scale it up and it starts dropping off in terms of interesting interactions.
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On April 05 2025 04:21 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2025 15:43 Hider wrote:People just can't seem to make a RTS that's a ton of fun to play. Like to the levels that people find Smash Bros or Valorant or League fun. Kinda wild cause I feel like it's very possible. What is fun to you? The pattern we have seen with almost all RTS games being released or in progress over the past few years (excluding Battle Aces) is a somewhat mixed version of Wc3 and Sc2 with some QoL improvement - but also very little real innovation. The most important thing is player expression I think. You have a great game if 10 players of the same race can all exercise their unique style and find success with it. Fun is a bit abstract and subjective, but I feel like there are some universal truths—that can act as a base layer to build upon—that most people find fun, like: - min-maxing value
- player limitations
- quality difficulty curve (starts somewhat difficult and can get very difficult/rewarding as you improve)
- unique unit/hero personality and movement
- non-linear interaction (my lurker defends a ramp)
- skill shots
- mobility skills
- robust animation (goes a long way)
- robust and creative sound (more important than people think)
Anything that gives a player more room to create an interesting scenario will always be fun. But to do that, the devs need to lay the groundwork for this to happen. Everyone complains that Brood War and Warcraft are “clunky”, among other things, but those games have the groundwork for interesting things to happen in the game. Modern games do not. In the case of Brood War, for example, I find it fun to engage in the very steep mechanical challenge. The sheer difficulty level and limitations on you, the player, having to do everything manually, creates a very fun environment in 1v1. A sort of potato sack race. As you say, Hider, modern devs have totally thrown the baby out with the bathwater and strongly resist making truly challenging games. It's one of these arguments I can't win because it seems like the majority of players don't want to play 1v1 at all, let alone be truly challenged by something. We see it across the board, not just in games. But my argument has always been that if you make a really fun game that allows people to be expressive, and create some sweet, immersive tutorialization, people will rise to the occasion. At worst, you have a niche but die-hard community that will play your game for decades. I personally think there is an ocean of potential for RTS and fun things that haven't been explored yet, but don't think they will be explored until the more tepid efforts fail and people get fed up with the slop machine. I would love to visually simulate what I'm talking about and share how I would make a RTS, but just feel like my ideas would get stolen and I'd get nothing back. Womp womp. edit: should clarify that i don't think SG is slop or anything. more that stuff people are putting out feels generally weak these days. Could just be me tho.
I agree with your sentiment. Although I don't necessarily think devs don't want to make a mechanically challenging game. I think they try to make an easy-to-learn-hard-to-master game but fail in process of doing so.
I want to keep the skill-cap of Sc2 but I throw out half of the stuff we currently have in Sc2 and replace it with new mechanics/new-gameplay and new unit-design.
In contrast, if we look at Battle Aces, they removed a lot of stuff and replaced it with??? Simple and boring units?
Although at least unlike other RTS games, I think they did manage to make an RTS game that is easy to get into. Zerospace, Immortals gates of pyre and Stormgate are not. There is no other target group for them than already experienced RTS players.
The segment/target-group I imagine is MOBA players who enjoy mechanically skillfull champions/heroes. I think there is a large part of that group who also could enjoy a game like Sc2, e.g. - but Sc2 has too much frustrating/annoying stuff and a too high learning barrier.
But I think a properly designed 1v1 game fits the needs of that target group better than any MOBA currently does. The issue with MOBA's is that they need to be team-games to "work". RTS games don't and it's a unique feeling that you can design your own strategies. Watch streams of top-players, copy-paste a strategy and test it for yourself.
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EPT
