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Harris1st
Germany6981 Posts
On October 09 2024 16:10 followZeRoX wrote: Not at all, just making a comparison of communities and situations are similar, yet, we all play 15 yo games I really don't see any similarities between CSGO -> CS2 and SC2 - SG besides "there have been bugs in the beta" ... No idea what you are getting at honestly | ||
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ztrgfhwetrw
8 Posts
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gTank
Austria2586 Posts
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ztrgfhwetrw
8 Posts
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gTank
Austria2586 Posts
On October 09 2024 18:24 ztrgfhwetrw wrote: The Team Fortress 2 community trashed the game for years for being in an unacceptable state Its a decades old game and was super fun to play back then, its a different story. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16865 Posts
On October 08 2024 19:07 ETisME wrote: Dropping to 120 concurrent players. It doesn't even feel like the drop is slowing down when this is pretty much their core player base left it dipped under 100 players last night. tracking these #s feels like we're watching the doomsday clock. we're "....2 minutes to midnight ...." All these 80s Metal Bands remind me of Spinal Tap. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10792 Posts
On October 09 2024 18:40 gTank wrote: Its a decades old game and was super fun to play back then, its a different story. It also still has more than 200 players... | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On October 09 2024 13:46 ETisME wrote: Doesn't sound like too MOBA to me tbh. MOBA genre is very fine tuned with a ton of depth, it had decades of refining the overall mechanics. Not saying this mode wouldn't have any depth, but I think it will feel more like a custom map or those custom events in league. It sounds identical to a MOBA, just with armies and a small degree of bases building instead of a single hero. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it's clearly what they're going for | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. | ||
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gTank
Austria2586 Posts
On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote: I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead? Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. Oh that post gave me flashbacks to a game I bought back then, MOBA with a twist: dropzone. you had to control 3 mechs and it was really great on paper but failed spectacularly too. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
SC2 did 2v2, 4v4 etc following the 1v1 rules and was never a huge hit compared to 1v1, co-op, or arcade. RTS is intuitively a single player game, you spend half your attention (or more) looking at your own base. And most players are bad at it, or at least macro is the deciding factor in most games. Removing routine macro tasks and replacing them with creeps and team objectives is necessary I feel. On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote: I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead? Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. There's simply no way the Stormgate engine can handle higher unit counts. Too many players struggle with max 1v1 fights. Some pros and streamers say performance is a big reason they aren't playing, and they're 1v1 gamers. Also worth saying there are no workers in this mode, so that 100 supply is all units. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2599 Posts
On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote: I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead? Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I think you need to leverage the strategic depth that moba heroes provide for it to be good. WC3 is, obviously, the closest thing we have to 'RTS moba' but the hero designs in wc3 are extremely modest compared to even HOTS, nevermind dota. I could see it working. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On October 10 2024 07:14 Fleetfeet wrote: I think you need to leverage the strategic depth that moba heroes provide for it to be good. WC3 is, obviously, the closest thing we have to 'RTS moba' but the hero designs in wc3 are extremely modest compared to even HOTS, nevermind dota. I could see it working. I spend some time thinking on how to create a modernized Wc3. But whatever iteration came up with... Like the problem is that the "complexity" needs to go down to make it simpler/lower learning-barrier. But whenever you do that, it simply becomes closer to a normal MOBA. If you make it like MOBA heroes, why not play a moba? Why even have units at all if you only have a few and they are quite weak? The whole idea behind an RTS relative to MOBA is that controlling more units allow more strategic and tactical choices around how you spread your army around over the map. If you reduce the unit counts enough you take that away. And if that's away you might as well go full MOBA. But anything that is to close to a MOBA will imo by definition fail. And to make it even worse - they have to effectively figure out how to make a "better" MOBA/RTS hybrid in a matter of months. They couldn't even figure out how to make a better Sc2 1v1 while having years to do so. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
You say "May as well play a MOBA", but then is there any world you want to play a team RTS? We already know that just doing 1v1 rules with more players doesn't make for a great game. You need moba-like team objectives. It's still 100 supply of army, and still has expansions, economy, buildings, static defence. It's not a world apart from WC3 in terms of falling on the MOBA-RTS spectrum. And from what I can gather reading their dev interviews, 3v3 was intended to be their flagship mode (their original plan was to make a team RTS). The addition of 1v1 came a later, but obviously had to come first in terms of order of operations. And they've been testing the 3v3 in the sc2 editor for years. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2599 Posts
On October 10 2024 07:57 Hider wrote: I spend some time thinking on how to create a modernized Wc3. But whatever iteration came up with... Like the problem is that the "complexity" needs to go down to make it simpler/lower learning-barrier. But whenever you do that, it simply becomes closer to a normal MOBA. If you make it like MOBA heroes, why not play a moba? Why even have units at all if you only have a few and they are quite weak? The whole idea behind an RTS relative to MOBA is that controlling more units allow more strategic and tactical choices around how you spread your army around over the map. If you reduce the unit counts enough you take that away. And if that's away you might as well go full MOBA. But anything that is to close to a MOBA will imo by definition fail. And to make it even worse - they have to effectively figure out how to make a "better" MOBA/RTS hybrid in a matter of months. They couldn't even figure out how to make a better Sc2 1v1 while having years to do so. There are TONS of directions you could go to answer "why not normal moba?" Normal moba are actually fairly rigid in their 3 lanes 5v5 structure. LoL had a long period of time where it had a popular 3v3 mode that had a decent audience despite basically being least important in terms of balance. To be clear it sounds like Stormgate has fundamental engine issues outside of game design, and that doesn't leave me much hope that 'moba pivot' will succeed. That said, I don't believe the idea of 'Moba RTS' is dead on arrival. Something akin to co-op commanders merged with a 'modernized' wc3 sounds pretty cool. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5448 Posts
But it sounds like it won't be available now for a while, if they'll do more internal testing first. Probably a good thing considering all that's happened. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9644 Posts
![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/qi4h0xtjertd1.png?width=1273&format=png&auto=webp&s=2526732bcacaf0bcf16772aa901e696abd1ae4e7) That comment makes me think its not going to be super competitive. | ||
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ETisME
12493 Posts
On October 10 2024 08:57 Fleetfeet wrote: There are TONS of directions you could go to answer "why not normal moba?" Normal moba are actually fairly rigid in their 3 lanes 5v5 structure. LoL had a long period of time where it had a popular 3v3 mode that had a decent audience despite basically being least important in terms of balance. To be clear it sounds like Stormgate has fundamental engine issues outside of game design, and that doesn't leave me much hope that 'moba pivot' will succeed. That said, I don't believe the idea of 'Moba RTS' is dead on arrival. Something akin to co-op commanders merged with a 'modernized' wc3 sounds pretty cool. 5v5 or 6v6 like hero shooter is more flexible because you can have more dedicated roles. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On October 10 2024 08:57 Fleetfeet wrote: There are TONS of directions you could go to answer "why not normal moba?" Normal moba are actually fairly rigid in their 3 lanes 5v5 structure. LoL had a long period of time where it had a popular 3v3 mode that had a decent audience despite basically being least important in terms of balance. To be clear it sounds like Stormgate has fundamental engine issues outside of game design, and that doesn't leave me much hope that 'moba pivot' will succeed. That said, I don't believe the idea of 'Moba RTS' is dead on arrival. Something akin to co-op commanders merged with a 'modernized' wc3 sounds pretty cool. Sure, I guess what you could argue they are going for is a "new type of MOBA". Improving the MOBA genre. MOBA 2.0. I can see I can see theoretical angles where it can be improved, but its an incredibly ambitious task and generally for any studio unlikely to work. Now imagine doing it just in a few months of work (because that's what they have left in funding), and done by Frostgiant who imo have shown they don't really have a good understanding of how to create fun micro-interactions. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6981 Posts
On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote: I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead? Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS | ||
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