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On October 10 2024 11:53 iamperfection wrote:I feel like 3v3 will be very gimmicky. like it could be fun for a bit but i don't think it will have the staying power as a serious game mode. That comment makes me think its not going to be super competitive.
I think this comment reveals the big problem.
Stormgate wanted their 1v1 and co-op + campaign to cater to casual RTS players right? Yet they had access to a bunch of internal play-testers who clearly didn't particular enjoy playing the game.
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On October 10 2024 08:47 Fango wrote:
And from what I can gather reading their dev interviews, 3v3 was intended to be their flagship mode (their original plan was to make a team RTS). The addition of 1v1 came a later, but obviously had to come first in terms of order of operations. And they've been testing the 3v3 in the sc2 editor for years.
In retrospect they should have just stuck with that plan and do everything for 3vE and 3v3 I guess.
"We are Ex-Blizz but we want to do something different than SC2/WC3. Bear with us" kinda way.
But like many of you mentioned when their glorious engine can't even do proper 1v1 all is lost anyway
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On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS
Here is the difference: HOTS was developed with clear ideas years prior to release as to what problems they wanted to solve from existing MOBA's.
If Stormgate was started on the same premise it might have worked. (well probably not but you could argue so). If it was started by developers who knew MOBA's well, but also had clear and concrete ideas for how to innovate the genre. Yes, I would all support it.
However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding.
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On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS Here is the difference: HOTS was developed with clear ideas years prior to release as to what problems they wanted to solve from existing MOBA's. If Stormgate was started on the same premise it might have worked. (well probably not but you could argue so). If it was started by developers who knew MOBA's well, but also had clear and concrete ideas for how to innovate the genre. Yes, I would all support it. However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding.
Oh absolutely. I have zero expecations and almost zero hope (like <1% :D ) that FGS will turn the ship around.
I do hope however that someone somewhere will be doing a RTS/ MOBA mix.
I don't even need big armies. Maybe just call down squads of 10-20 units with a special purpose evolving throughout the game to add another strategic depth or even control what units/ what unit composition goes down which lane 1 / 2 / 3 to counter the enemys lane mix or or or. So much ideas :D
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On October 10 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS Here is the difference: HOTS was developed with clear ideas years prior to release as to what problems they wanted to solve from existing MOBA's. If Stormgate was started on the same premise it might have worked. (well probably not but you could argue so). If it was started by developers who knew MOBA's well, but also had clear and concrete ideas for how to innovate the genre. Yes, I would all support it. However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding. Oh absolutely. I have zero expecations and almost zero hope (like <1% :D ) that FGS will turn the ship around. I do hope however that someone somewhere will be doing a RTS/ MOBA mix. I don't even need big armies. Maybe just call down squads of 10-20 units with a special purpose evolving throughout the game to add another strategic depth or even control what units/ what unit composition goes down which lane 1 / 2 / 3 to counter the enemys lane mix or or or. So much ideas :D
The SC2 world builder is a great way to experiment with these ideas. Also, Unity is super easy if you have went through a legit 4 year computer science program.
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On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding.
3v3 isn't some new response to their 1v1, or them trying to turn the game into a MOBA.
The devs have been saying for years (about 2.5 years specifically I believe) that 1v1 will follow classic competitive RTS rules for the hardcore players, and 3v3 will feature heroes, co-op, and MOBA mechanics. It's nothing that hasn't been on their plan from the start
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When you read about 3v3, you just know that nothing was planned before last month.
I too have zero expecations.
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On October 11 2024 00:38 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding. 3v3 isn't some new response to their 1v1, or them trying to turn the game into a MOBA. The devs have been saying for years (about 2.5 years specifically I believe) that 1v1 will follow classic competitive RTS rules for the hardcore players, and 3v3 will feature heroes, co-op, and MOBA mechanics. It's nothing that hasn't been on their plan from the start
I read some months ago that their previous iteration with 3v3 did not work out well. (where it was more like a normal RTS IIRC). So them doing this brand new thing is a relatively new idea.
It's also clear that 3v3 wasn't prioritized as high iniitally. Rather they wanted to continue to improve campaign - but I think it's clear that they don't have the ressources to improve campaign by enough within a few months - and instead puts those into making a 3v3-gamemode which is somewhat more feasible.
I see effectively a zero % probability that it's been this big master plan all along where the Tims years ago were playing League of lengeds and were like "you know what's missing from this game - 5 units + the champion and no lanes".
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there is a big 2v2 Stormgate event coming up!
https://www.start.gg/tournament/infolet-tournament-2/details
On October 11 2024 01:03 gingerfluffmuffnr2 wrote:
When you read about 3v3, you just know that nothing was planned before last month.
I too have zero expecations.
i think it should be "I two". english is not my first language though so i'm not 100% on that one.
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On October 11 2024 04:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:there is a big 2v2 Stormgate event coming up! https://www.start.gg/tournament/infolet-tournament-2/detailsShow nested quote +On October 11 2024 01:03 gingerfluffmuffnr2 wrote:
When you read about 3v3, you just know that nothing was planned before last month.
I too have zero expecations. i think it should be "I two". english is not my first language though so i'm not 100% on that one.
In this case, "too" as in "also". So "too" is the correct one.
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On October 11 2024 03:31 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 00:38 Fango wrote:On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding. 3v3 isn't some new response to their 1v1, or them trying to turn the game into a MOBA. The devs have been saying for years (about 2.5 years specifically I believe) that 1v1 will follow classic competitive RTS rules for the hardcore players, and 3v3 will feature heroes, co-op, and MOBA mechanics. It's nothing that hasn't been on their plan from the start I read some months ago that their previous iteration with 3v3 did not work out well. (where it was more like a normal RTS IIRC). So them doing this brand new thing is a relatively new idea. It's also clear that 3v3 wasn't prioritized as high iniitally. Rather they wanted to continue to improve campaign - but I think it's clear that they don't have the ressources to improve campaign by enough within a few months - and instead puts those into making a 3v3-gamemode which is somewhat more feasible. I see effectively a zero % probability that it's been this big master plan all along where the Tims years ago were playing League of lengeds and were like "you know what's missing from this game - 5 units + the champion and no lanes".
You read some months ago information that they came out with 2 and a half years ago? They've been open since 2022 about how 3v3 doesn't work with classic RTS rules so they're taking from co-op and MOBAS
2022 interview with Winter
2022 interview with Feardragon
2022 interview with Back2Warcraft
2022 interview with Winter
2023 Blogpost about heroes in 3v3
They moved 3v3 up in priority. You can wish they'd spend more time on campaign and co-op than releasing another gamemode, that's fine and understandable. But you can't just make up or spread some misguided theory about them only recently coming up with the idea.
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On October 11 2024 00:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
The SC2 world builder is a great way to experiment with these ideas.
If only. That thing had zero effort put into making it user-friendly, and was a far cry from those for SC1 and WC3.
That said, Blizzard deserves credit for releasing one at all at the time, as editors had mostly died out.
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On October 11 2024 11:35 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 00:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
The SC2 world builder is a great way to experiment with these ideas. If only. That thing had zero effort put into making it user-friendly, and was a far cry from those for SC1 and WC3. That said, Blizzard deserves credit for releasing one at all at the time, as editors had mostly died out.
At $1million per month spend for FG, I am sure that's a non issue
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under 100 players right now and 14 watching on twitch.tv
hanging in this long and playing tonight is like being the night shift security guard.
On October 11 2024 11:35 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 00:15 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
The SC2 world builder is a great way to experiment with these ideas. If only. That thing had zero effort put into making it user-friendly, and was a far cry from those for SC1 and WC3. That said, Blizzard deserves credit for releasing one at all at the time, as editors had mostly died out.
I thought both the SC1 and SC2 world builders were great. Tonnes of people have cranked out lots of great games with both editors/builders.
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On October 11 2024 07:28 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 03:31 Hider wrote:On October 11 2024 00:38 Fango wrote:On October 10 2024 18:32 Hider wrote:On October 10 2024 17:49 Harris1st wrote:On October 09 2024 23:33 Hider wrote:
I don't think making it more like a MOBA can work. The game might play out fun enough, but after a while people will be "why don't I just play LOL or Dota" instead?
Adding a few units extra to control beyond a hero IMO adds nothing to the experience beyond what a MOBA does. For an RTS to distinguish itself relative to a MOBA, unit counts needs to be somewhat higher. I disagree! Adding a little bit of something to change up the gameplay can change everything. To this day I play the dead game of Heroes of the Storm because it's just that bit different to LoL or Dota. There is a small playerbase, there are no big competitions, nothing. Yet still I can't bothered to play LoL or Dota and instead having still grat fun with HotS However, what happens here instead is that we have some devs that failed in the RTS genre due to lack of innovation and execution and now needs to reinvent the MOBA genre - a genre with much tougher competition than RTS - in a matter of months. Do you see the problem? This has < 1% chance of succeeding. 3v3 isn't some new response to their 1v1, or them trying to turn the game into a MOBA. The devs have been saying for years (about 2.5 years specifically I believe) that 1v1 will follow classic competitive RTS rules for the hardcore players, and 3v3 will feature heroes, co-op, and MOBA mechanics. It's nothing that hasn't been on their plan from the start I read some months ago that their previous iteration with 3v3 did not work out well. (where it was more like a normal RTS IIRC). So them doing this brand new thing is a relatively new idea. It's also clear that 3v3 wasn't prioritized as high iniitally. Rather they wanted to continue to improve campaign - but I think it's clear that they don't have the ressources to improve campaign by enough within a few months - and instead puts those into making a 3v3-gamemode which is somewhat more feasible. I see effectively a zero % probability that it's been this big master plan all along where the Tims years ago were playing League of lengeds and were like "you know what's missing from this game - 5 units + the champion and no lanes". You read some months ago information that they came out with 2 and a half years ago? They've been open since 2022 about how 3v3 doesn't work with classic RTS rules so they're taking from co-op and MOBAS 2022 interview with Winter2022 interview with Feardragon2022 interview with Back2Warcraft2022 interview with Winter2023 Blogpost about heroes in 3v3 They moved 3v3 up in priority. You can wish they'd spend more time on campaign and co-op than releasing another gamemode, that's fine and understandable. But you can't just make up or spread some misguided theory about them only recently coming up with the idea.
The biggest change we’re making, however, is readjusting our priorities so that we can get our new 3v3 mode into Stormgate before the end of the year.
from https://playstormgate.com/news/update-on-our-priorities-for-stormgate
Addressing complexity and UI challenges
One of our key takeaways from the prototype is the need to simplify the experience without losing depth. The prototype was praised by experienced RTS players who tested it behind closed doors. They shared that it felt low-stress, interesting, and social, but the mode conversely felt overwhelming to those less familiar with RTS games–one even said it felt like “an RTS with even more systems on top.” We’ll share some ways we are aiming to address this in our next update.
from: https://playstormgate.com/news/inside-the-development-of-stormgate-3v3-episode-1
So I hope this make it clear to you that:
1. The new gameplay of the 3v3 is a newer idea (far different than original prototype)
2. It was not prioritized as high initially.
Now, adding heroes to an RTS does not make it a MOBA. That might be your confusion. Adding heroes to an existing RTS probably complicates the game further and thus makes it even harder for MOBA players to get into - hence the feedback. So it's clear they are going with a clearly different direction than their initial prototypes.
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I thought the "RTS with even more systems on top" referred to the " Team Core" mechanic and how to kill it?
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I had to wait awhile to play the new co-op mutation last night. I haven't been able to play much for about 2 weeks; I hope the player base will eventually come back!
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On October 11 2024 15:49 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
Addressing complexity and UI challenges
One of our key takeaways from the prototype is the need to simplify the experience without losing depth. The prototype was praised by experienced RTS players who tested it behind closed doors. They shared that it felt low-stress, interesting, and social, but the mode conversely felt overwhelming to those less familiar with RTS games–one even said it felt like “an RTS with even more systems on top.” We’ll share some ways we are aiming to address this in our next update.
from: https://playstormgate.com/news/inside-the-development-of-stormgate-3v3-episode-1So I hope this make it clear to you that: 1. The new gameplay of the 3v3 is a newer idea (far different than original prototype) 2. It was not prioritized as high initially. Now, adding heroes to an RTS does not make it a MOBA. That might be your confusion. Adding heroes to an existing RTS probably complicates the game further and thus makes it even harder for MOBA players to get into - hence the feedback. So it's clear they are going with a clearly different direction than their initial prototypes.
Are you reading your own links? You quote them saying they want to simplify the game from the original prototype, but you're ignoring the previous paragraph where they say the initial prototype was from May 2022.
Further, there are at least 5 or 6 interviews from June 2022 where they talk about MOBA mechanics in 3v3. Specifically win conditions, heroes, team objectives, and removing player elimination. All of this is over two years old, long before they got any feedback on their 1v1 or campaign.
Your claim that they've failed to make an RTS and are now shifting gears to make a MOBA is based on nothing factual. You're cherry picking words to fit your own theory.
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Any word on when they are adding more campaign missions.
"What if Raynor could see you right now", damn what a great moment. She murdered Warfield.
On October 12 2024 02:18 Fango wrote:
Your claim that they've failed to make an RTS and are now shifting gears to make a MOBA is based on nothing factual. You're cherry picking words to fit your own theory.
Ya, good points.
EDIT: 25 TWitch.tv viewers for Stormgate on Friday night
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EPT![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/qi4h0xtjertd1.png?width=1273&format=png&auto=webp&s=2526732bcacaf0bcf16772aa901e696abd1ae4e7)
