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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
EDIT: And this has nothing to do with having a nice engine or not. Which I say as SC2 does have a very nice engine, and judging from the YouTube interview about Stormgate, so does it. As pointed out in posts above me, you can have a nice engine that still allows units to spread out a little bit more. You can have detailed graphics that still allow units to appear distinct from each other and from the background. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9362 Posts
This sort of clumping will always be an issue as long as AoE is in the game and I'm not sure removing all AoE from the game would be a good solution. I come at this from another perspective. If there is no AOE combined with efficient stacking pathing, then "large group of units" will always be cost effectiev against "small group of units". We don't want that to be the case though. We want a smaller group of units to be able to in certain situations to trade very efficiently against larger group of units. That relationship encourages more "spread out gameplay". So in a game like Sc2 you need very strong AOE abilities. One issue with strong AOE abilities is that it can make the gameplay very volatile. That's especially prevalent when you can't rebuild your army very easily. However, I notieced in the last few years with the change to map size and overall meta change, players get a lot more econ. This has effectively resulted in armies being more exposeable/replaceable, which results in more back-and-forth gameplay. The starkest contrast would be to early Sc2 WOL where players sat on 1-2 bases and one battle into GG. So as I see, a new RTS can actually keep a similar pathing as Sc2 if (a) they have strong AOE abilities and (b) they go even further into the direction of "losing your primary army isn't that big of a deal". | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
In any case, one thing that is CRUCIAL is for the game to be easy to watch and understand. Starcraft 2 was easy to understand and follow. It was made from the ground up to be an esport. Although of coruse the defininition changed from 2005-2010 and after that. But one thing that was always true is that a bigger percent of the playerbase watched starcraft esports than League of Legends, for example, which was more boring and harder to follow comparatively. Yes, league had more viewership, but that's because they had many times much players. In % of the total playerbase sc2 had more viewers. In part I guess it's because sc are more hardcore. But I also believe that it was because it's easier to watch or more fun compared to lol. This is very important and why sc2 is more popular than other RTS | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17237 Posts
Games like SC2 can't really achieve that because for the most part all you have is just big blobs of anonymous units moving about and getting decimated in seconds. You need to be rather familiar with the game at higher levels to really appreciate what's going on "behind the scenes", macro decisions, how some small things affect the game in the long run etc. etc. It's not something that you can easily convey visually, unlike WC3 where all the key factors have strong visuals attached to them and the action seems slower (only seems so, for anyone who actually played it at higher levels they know that units can melt in an instant too) so it's easy to understand what's going on, even if you don't know the intricacies of it. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16055 Posts
The Thor wasn't designed as a standard combat unit, it was changed relatively last minute from something that was supposed to be a giant hero unit like the Mothership into a big bulky Goliath type unit that took years for them to find an actual place for and even now it still feels like an awkward unit. The Collosus is a special case experiment in unit design that can walk over other unit types, and this is also something that was never repeated with any other unit in SC2 because of all of the problems with deathballing that it created. The way that units path by default in SC2 actually works REALLY well for Zerg as you pointed out and it works very well for Terran too for the most part when using MOST unit compositions like the standard Marine/Marauder/Medivac and Marine/Siege Tank unit comps. It gets wonky when you mix in Thors and maybe air units also, but Terran combat units actually benefit quite a lot from the ability to stay packed tight vs enemy melee units. It's really Protoss specific unit design (as well as some others like Broodlords) that encouraged such heavy deathball style play, and through a variety of gameplay changes and new unit designs the current iteration of SC2 has a vastly decreased emphasis on them vs what was meta in WoL. So it's not necessarily the engine's fault that shit like Protoss deathballs were such a thing for so long, moreso it was bad unit design, which is something that has been improved upon as SC2 has matured as a game. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17237 Posts
On January 20 2023 15:24 Vindicare605 wrote: It's interesting that you chose that particular image when both of those units that you see in that image are special case situations. The Thor wasn't designed as a standard combat unit, it was changed relatively last minute from something that was supposed to be a giant hero unit like the Mothership into a big bulky Goliath type unit that took years for them to find an actual place for and even now it still feels like an awkward unit. The Collosus is a special case experiment in unit design that can walk over other unit types, and this is also something that was never repeated with any other unit in SC2 because of all of the problems with deathballing that it created. The way that units path by default in SC2 actually works REALLY well for Zerg as you pointed out and it works very well for Terran too for the most part when using MOST unit compositions like the standard Marine/Marauder/Medivac and Marine/Siege Tank unit comps. It gets wonky when you mix in Thors and maybe air units also, but Terran combat units actually benefit quite a lot from the ability to stay packed tight vs enemy melee units. It's really Protoss specific unit design (as well as some others like Broodlords) that encouraged such heavy deathball style play, and through a variety of gameplay changes and new unit designs the current iteration of SC2 has a vastly decreased emphasis on them vs what was meta in WoL. So it's not necessarily the engine's fault that shit like Protoss deathballs were such a thing for so long, moreso it was bad unit design, which is something that has been improved upon as SC2 has matured as a game. For the image I simply chose the first clear one that I could find with a lot of units in it. The fact that they're some of the biggest units in SC2 and are so clumped together only illustrates the problem better IMO. Just wanted to mention that I never said anything about SC2 engine being bad, on the contrary. I just said that perhaps some variables on the units are set wrong (collision sizes and such) which results in the clumping. Unit design is another matter entirely. I'll take Dragoons with their pathing issues over Stalkers any day of the week. The same with Reavers and Colossi. Goons and Reavers were iconic Protoss units and SC2 versions seem kinda meh in comparison. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the color palette, which for SC2 is a bit bland and also makes it hard to see stuff at times. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2384 Posts
On January 21 2023 10:45 Manit0u wrote: Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the color palette, which for SC2 is a bit bland and also makes it hard to see stuff at times. This is a big part of what I was trying to say with "visual clarity". The more detail you add to your units, the more you also need to make sure they remain distinct from other units, terrain, etc. I think to some extent the older games with crappier graphics were forced to do this well, and it's been lost a bit as graphics standards improved. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
I'd like to see something way closer to WC3's pacing. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17237 Posts
On February 02 2023 12:28 lestye wrote: I'd like to see something way closer to WC3's pacing. Speaking to that I wish that Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak would've taken off more. It has absolutely brilliant design on pretty much all fronts (graphics, unit design, mechanics, sound design) and the pacing is pretty good in it too. It allows for early small scale confrontations but also going heavy on macro with bigger armies. Micro remains important during all stages of the game so you can have those epic memorable moments and it's pretty good from the spectator standpoint. There's still a small community playing it and doing balance-patches for it. I absolutely love watching the games in DoK. | ||
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ESLEvents
8 Posts
On February 02 2023 14:11 Manit0u wrote: Speaking to that I wish that Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak would've taken off more. It has absolutely brilliant design on pretty much all fronts (graphics, unit design, mechanics, sound design) and the pacing is pretty good in it too. It allows for early small scale confrontations but also going heavy on macro with bigger armies. Micro remains important during all stages of the game so you can have those epic memorable moments and it's pretty good from the spectator standpoint. There's still a small community playing it and doing balance-patches for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ved6iSbqdfo I absolutely love watching the games in DoK. - | ||
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Sinistro
Brazil684 Posts
On February 02 2023 22:36 ESLEvents wrote: - and I replied using the wrong acc On February 02 2023 14:11 Manit0u wrote: Speaking to that I wish that Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak would've taken off more. It has absolutely brilliant design on pretty much all fronts (graphics, unit design, mechanics, sound design) and the pacing is pretty good in it too. It allows for early small scale confrontations but also going heavy on macro with bigger armies. Micro remains important during all stages of the game so you can have those epic memorable moments and it's pretty good from the spectator standpoint. There's still a small community playing it and doing balance-patches for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ved6iSbqdfo I absolutely love watching the games in DoK. actual reply: DoK is something else entirely, back in 2016 I was running some tournaments for it on ESL Play as part of the New Games section (https://twitter.com/ESLNewGames/status/720700996377264128). The game has a pretty unique approach to scarce economy (something that Wayward Strategy nailed with his SCRAP mod - https://scrapmod.wordpress.com/blog/). Also the game is so freaking fluid, even units rotation and turn rate adds up to the experience and smooth control of the units (and some times makes you regret issuing that turn around command, so you spam stop, and then issue a multiple reverse commands to your Coalition BC because that thing turns so god damn slowly). I'm curious to know what Frost Giant will do with their game, although, my main concern (that comes from a more personal approach) is with their lore and history telling. I was never a fan of baseless RTS (did not put enough time on DoW2), and the intro video from DoK + some of the words from wayward made me curious enough to test it and I ended up falling in love. Till today DoK is the most played game I have on Steam, PUBG has the raw numbers but half of that is hosting lobbies for tournaments. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4704 Posts
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sertas
Sweden879 Posts
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postcount69
9 Posts
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On February 17 2023 15:36 postcount69 wrote: WC3 was designed around the technical limitations of its era. They wanted an online multiplayer game with 3d graphics that would work on a wide variety of hardware and internet speeds. That's why there's stuff like unit upkeep (less units = less polygons = more people on cheap PCs can play it) and turning speeds (lag-hiding technique). Keep in mind that at the time of its release simply having 3d graphics was a huge feature. As I understood it, upkeep had the most to do with the hero focused gameplay. It would be impossible to maintain that if they could be swarmed by large armies or backdoor attacks all over the place. I did NOT like that mechanic, though! | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17237 Posts
On February 17 2023 00:11 Silvanel wrote: Just to chip in. I found WC3 really dull and boring to spectate, and I played the game, so I knew what was what. Creeping, unkillable heros (BM, DH) running around and not caring about enemy troops. TP as an escape mechanism. Just bad gameplay all around. I do hope future RTS won't be anything like that. That's only if you look at it from a "standard" RTS perspective. WC3 is actually very deep on a strategic level and much more complex than say SC2. But for that you need to understand the intricacies and concepts like hero experience being a resource that you can gather, deny and need to utilize correctly for best result (I even wrote a bigger article on this on TL.net some years back I think). The same with items being a part of economy. Sure, the game is very hero-centric but that's a part of its design and charm and what actually gives it most of the complexity. Considering that you can have the same unit composition but different hero choices can drastically alter how you approach the fights or how certain heroes enable some units in matchups where they normally wouldn't be considered viable, it just opens up way more avenues. I also don't understand the notion of "tanky units" in WC3. It may seem so at first glance but it's entirely possible to literally melt units instantly in WC3. Vywerns sniping casters or workers isn't much different from Mutalisks sniping marines or workers in BW, you can also melt the tankiest units like knights or tauren easily with Griffons, Destroyers, Frost Dragons, Chimeras etc. Those in turn can be destroyed in seconds by Gargoyles, Hippogryphs, Gyrocopters and such. You can't really judge the whole game by just pointing to a "tanky" grunt fighting another grunt and saying it's slow as hell. It sure will be because of damage/armor types. On February 16 2023 19:52 Sinistro wrote: actual reply: DoK is something else entirely, back in 2016 I was running some tournaments for it on ESL Play as part of the New Games section (https://twitter.com/ESLNewGames/status/720700996377264128). The game has a pretty unique approach to scarce economy (something that Wayward Strategy nailed with his SCRAP mod - https://scrapmod.wordpress.com/blog/). Also the game is so freaking fluid, even units rotation and turn rate adds up to the experience and smooth control of the units (and some times makes you regret issuing that turn around command, so you spam stop, and then issue a multiple reverse commands to your Coalition BC because that thing turns so god damn slowly). I'm curious to know what Frost Giant will do with their game, although, my main concern (that comes from a more personal approach) is with their lore and history telling. I was never a fan of baseless RTS (did not put enough time on DoW2), and the intro video from DoK + some of the words from wayward made me curious enough to test it and I ended up falling in love. Till today DoK is the most played game I have on Steam, PUBG has the raw numbers but half of that is hosting lobbies for tournaments. DoW 2 had its moments. I too wasn't a fan of "baseless" approach at the start but it became clear that it was the right choice for this game once I played many hours of it. When you get good at the game and are against other people who also know what they're doing there's just too much stuff going on all around the map for you to also be bothered with base building and such. The income comes at a trickle so you don't get to produce a lot of units and have to focus on preserving what you have, as game progresses most of the units also get additional abilities and skillshots and you need to look after all of them to avoid bad matchups and wipes, make sure they're in cover etc. There's just too much to do with your units to also focus on the base. It's more about tactics than strategy but is a great concept overall. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4168 Posts
On February 17 2023 23:21 Manit0u wrote: That's only if you look at it from a "standard" RTS perspective. WC3 is actually very deep on a strategic level and much more complex than say SC2. But for that you need to understand the intricacies and concepts like hero experience being a resource that you can gather, deny and need to utilize correctly for best result (I even wrote a bigger article on this on TL.net some years back I think). The same with items being a part of economy. Sure, the game is very hero-centric but that's a part of its design and charm and what actually gives it most of the complexity. Considering that you can have the same unit composition but different hero choices can drastically alter how you approach the fights or how certain heroes enable some units in matchups where they normally wouldn't be considered viable, it just opens up way more avenues. I also don't understand the notion of "tanky units" in WC3. It may seem so at first glance but it's entirely possible to literally melt units instantly in WC3. Vywerns sniping casters or workers isn't much different from Mutalisks sniping marines or workers in BW, you can also melt the tankiest units like knights or tauren easily with Griffons, Destroyers, Frost Dragons, Chimeras etc. Those in turn can be destroyed in seconds by Gargoyles, Hippogryphs, Gyrocopters and such. You can't really judge the whole game by just pointing to a "tanky" grunt fighting another grunt and saying it's slow as hell. It sure will be because of damage/armor types. DoW 2 had its moments. I too wasn't a fan of "baseless" approach at the start but it became clear that it was the right choice for this game once I played many hours of it. When you get good at the game and are against other people who also know what they're doing there's just too much stuff going on all around the map for you to also be bothered with base building and such. The income comes at a trickle so you don't get to produce a lot of units and have to focus on preserving what you have, as game progresses most of the units also get additional abilities and skillshots and you need to look after all of them to avoid bad matchups and wipes, make sure they're in cover etc. There's just too much to do with your units to also focus on the base. It's more about tactics than strategy but is a great concept overall. I 100% agree with this. Thanks a lot for posting. Could not have said it better myself  | ||
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ZeroByte13
753 Posts
Not "much more complex in some areas while being much more simple/shallow in others" - which is, I'd argue, the objective truth - but outright much more complex in general? | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On February 18 2023 03:33 ZeroByte13 wrote: WC3 is "much more complex" than SC2? Really? Not "much more complex in some areas while being much more simple/shallow in others" - which is, I'd argue, the objective truth - but outright much more complex in general? It's a different opinion you can also explain yours if you want. For me I definitely agree the tactics part of War3 is miles beyond SC2 but I only played WoL (wasn't gonna buy expansions since I didn't like game so much etc). | ||
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ZeroByte13
753 Posts
Many games are one base vs one base, less strategy / decisions about expos. Some of the units/heroes are rarely used (this is more prominent in WC3 than in SC2 imo). There's big random factor in what drops you'll get from creeps. Micro part is of course more prominent, because you have much fewer units but they live much longer, also you have heroes. There's additional level of complexity that is added by heroes/items, including neutral heroes, their experience and creeping. But saying that WC3 is much more complex strategically in overall sounds very weird to me. And I love WC3. Custom scene of WC3 was like 10-20x times more popular than Versus for a reason. | ||
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