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On July 19 2007 23:53 LastWish wrote:I like how you use the word pro everywhere... I hope that means they pay you money for it and that you can do it for your living.
You got a team? Would you like to play us?
I said pro because that's the name of the division of the league we are in. HTGN-PRO. There is open [ soon semi pro ] and pro. So what else do you want me to call it? Am I claiming that my team is as good as x6, nafu, hi2u, dota master team? I am not in any way, but I am still in the pro division.
Please don't get your panties in a bunch this isn't starcraft where only people who get paid to play are pro players. Dota is still young.
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On July 20 2007 03:14 paper wrote:
ack, reps? ;D
edit: not one-sided ones~~ :d
Lol, if he showed you the HTGN one, you can see me (lina) getting swapped and ff-ed every fight while the other team completely ignores the impending 3 ultis (Sven, Lich, SF).
Lets just say I initiated by being swapped and chain nuked/stunned.
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He was a manly initiator.
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On July 20 2007 06:43 Ack1027 wrote:
He was a manly initiator.
ROFL
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LOL, it's obviously because you were the best and most dangerous player 
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Tbh the most intense games [ that weren't one sided ] that I have saved is the second replay I posted on page 4 of this thread.
On July 19 2007 23:38 rpf wrote:
Nice! 14-2 is pretty impressive. I assume you spent most of the mid game ganking the crap out of people and got an early level lead?
Well at first I kind of laughed because leshrac came late into the lane and I thought they were gonna solo razor against me so I figured it'd be an easy fight. But it was still an easy fight since leshrac couldn't land a level 2 stun on me at all [ but hit a couple level 1 stuns somehow ] and I just ripped them with shadowraze spam since they had such low hp.
Mid game was mostly the other team sending all they had at me in middle [ I never left mid ] and I just fought them as they came, you could call it one by one but basically their tiny or furion would try and initiate by attacking mid tower from different sides [ tp behind or from cliff above top water ] but they would always come too early and I'd bring them down to half before their team came to help so it was easy for me to escape and pick off kills as they ran away.
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Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
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well, wards doesn't mean you can take on any invis heroes, it just gives you vision, but if you were low health already, even if nerubian didn't have windwalk, he could kill you easily anyways
if you're ranged against templar assassin, wards is okay i guess since you could hit her from back (if your ranged attack is farther than hers), but if you're melee, i wouldn't attack her with wards anyways cuz her attack does 200 plus minus armor so you'd probably end up worse out than her
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On July 20 2007 19:44 rpf wrote:
Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
-apem isn't a bad mode; it's fun 
Anyways, you could either
1. Get a tank to buy a gem and just stick with him so that nobody can jump you unexpectedly
2. Buy both Observer/Sentry Wards and place them together
3. Buy a gem yourself, although this is riskier.
That's my 2 cents, although you should wait for Ack's reply.
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testpat
United States565 Posts
If you don't have an escape option, you shouldn't be pushing alone anyways.
If your soloing with the drow vs a melee, you should be last hitting & hugging your tower. Your responsibility isn't to kill heroes, its to out level & cash your opponent. You should be fighting near full health all the time. If you get a cheap hero kill - fine. But don't risk losing most of your hitpoints to lower a ww hero to near zero. They automatically have a better chance of escaping alive - even if you get a supporting gank. You do not.
In -em, its very easy to push the towers. But you need to ask yourself - What advantage do i get fighting farther from my base, and closer to theirs? All it means is they have a shorter trip back, and closer gank support. What it means to you is an extended opportunity to chase & kill you.
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On July 20 2007 19:44 rpf wrote:
Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
Hmmm you seem to be having an uncommon problem.
With most people it's the other way around, they get wards down and they get counter-warded or just are unable to use wards right and can never see the enemy even though they should be able to seem him almost 90% of the time.
In your situation [ the em game with drow at top ] you have to recognize that naturally how the creeps and how top lane works out your creeps will always be closer to the scourge tower than yours [ unless they push aggressively, but a templar alone wouldn't do that ]
Recognize that you also already have the advantage. WW is cheap trickery. He may have ww but you have range and as long as you have a brain and a short term memory you can always outlane the guy just by memorizing where he is melded. Actually it's not even ww, it's just plain meld he cannot move much without losing the bonuses from his skills. If you get wards it should be game over for templar 1v1 in a lane against drow. You should easily be able to get off at least 2-3 frost arrows off any time he comes into your 600 range. Just be aware of your tower and try not to push.
If you find yourself walking constantly back and forth between the area where the creeps are fighting and the safety range of your tower just fuck the lane and go neutral creep either the strong neutrals right by top or hell even into scourge neutral area.
The ganking na is something that can't really be controlled by you especially in a pub game. You'll have to have teammates call that. Because sentry wards no longer have much of a natural vision it's also useless to try and use those to detect oncoming ganks.
Here's what I would do in your situation:
Play normally and definitely would be out last-hitting templar [ she's basically melee and if you don't stand behind creeps you won't get hurt ] and frost arrowing her anytime she came close. If somehow she kept getting hits on me [ aka turned 6 and used psionic trap + meld combo ] I would buy sentry wards and place one in the lane where creeps mostly meet up so I could see any attack coming and go back to playing how I was before since he cannot surprise me.
If I find that I am getting ganked by other invis heroes I would buy observer wards and place one in top river [ you know that popular cliff ] because no hero is gonna invis before they check if a rune is there or not and very few if any heroes will come gank straight from healing at base [ which you should notice they are missing by then ]
If somehow I am getting ridiculously gayed by constant windwalking gankers AND templar is getting the best of me with psionic trap + meld harass I would just buy sentries and tower hug like shit [ but I really don't see how this situation could happen unless na, clinks, sa, and templar were all in the same game in my lane at all times ]
EDIT: In -em games once you get your enemy's first tower down in your lane it's a good time for you to go gank or help other lanes or even go neutral creep... When you push past where the first tower was you automatically become a target of a team gank. I usually go help other lanes that have enemy towers still up and then by the time I return to my lane it's back to normal creep flow or I'm strong enough to keep pushing.
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Thanks, Ack. That helped. I've always had problems dealing with the invisible heroes, because once I can see them, and I realize I'm dead, I usually panic. 
And what you said in your edit is what I always do. I push my lane when I can, as I don't want to push too early, but if I see an opening (i.e. my current creep wave is raping theirs, and I have another coming) I'll push to their tower, and once their first tower is down, I look at three things:
1. How are the other two lanes?
2. Any ganks possible?
3. Where else can I push?
I give defense priority, then pushing another lane, and then ganking, but I'll gank if it's convenient.
Also, I've done some experimenting, and wanted to share my thoughts:
As far as starting items go, I've broken it down into a few categories.
1. Stat items
2. Regen items
3. Consumable regen items
4. Misc.
The fourth group is either skipping all of the above and going straight for your first item (i.e. going RoH to get vanguard instead of getting stout/tangos at the fountain).
At the start of every game, I get two tangos (four uses), and then I either get:
1. Two circlets
2. RoR
3. Random consumable regen items (usually clarities)
I've found that going straight stats/tangos isn't really all that great. It's partly because I'm careless, and take more creep hits than are necessary, or if you're against a nuker you'll be out of tangos very quickly.
I've found that going with the second option is a bit better. The RoR regen is enough to negate creep hits, and if you're against a nuker, a large percentage of their nuke damage is negated before they can do it again, and so that really helps against harassers. Plus, if the enemy team is nuke heavy, you can go hood, and already have an item. By the time the RoR is useless, you more than got your money's worth, so selling it mid game isn't a big deal. If it's ap, you can afford RoR/two tangos, otherwise in ar you can work towards a bracer or talisman if you need it.
I rarely go with all consumables, although I have done it. The staying power is unmatched, but isn't really needed. I don't do this anymore.
I don't skip items at the start, ever. A couple of times I have just gone straight for a vanguard, but it sucked because I really needed tangos and whatnot.
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in em games going straight for ring of health isnt bad, allows you to stay in lane for a really long time. i usually only do this withheroes i would get either vanguard or bfury for. i dont get bfury that much honestly when i think about it, the only heroes that would come to mind is sk mag, or for fun sven. 2 bfurys give you over 100% cleave, gg ;D
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why get RoH for vanguard when you can get RoRx2 for cheaper and faster ;x
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Even if I'm going van, I'll still go RoR/tangos off the start, and then get RoH to work towards my first item. It might just be OCD, but I don't buy items at the start that are for my first item. I prefer to separate it.
So, for example, if I'm goin van on axe (which you should since he depends on getting hit), I'd go RoR/2 tangos, then while I'm in my lane, I'll run over and get a RoH when I can afford it between creep waves, and then get the rest of the pieces. I don't know if that's bad, but I prefer not to buy starting items as parts of my first item.
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You don't need that much regen, even against strong nukers people rarely get more than 6hp/s and you're getting 8hp/s as a standart build? Regen becomes worthless very quickly, so you should try to have as little as possible. In pub games you can just go with 2-3 tangos or flasks, this should be (more than) enough for your early game and get regen items only if you're going for mek/vanguard/hood.
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On July 21 2007 04:16 rpf wrote:
Even if I'm going van, I'll still go RoR/tangos off the start, and then get RoH to work towards my first item. It might just be OCD, but I don't buy items at the start that are for my first item. I prefer to separate it.
So, for example, if I'm goin van on axe (which you should since he depends on getting hit), I'd go RoR/2 tangos, then while I'm in my lane, I'll run over and get a RoH when I can afford it between creep waves, and then get the rest of the pieces. I don't know if that's bad, but I prefer not to buy starting items as parts of my first item.
Unless your opponents are very good or you really suck, Axe can get by fine with 2-3 bracers and a stats helix build before just going straight for a heart, you'll have 1600 hp at level 12 and then heart a bit later (this is apem)
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I don't get that much. I usually just buy tangos/RoR off the start, and then build towards a RoH. I see what you mean--I don't need both a RoR and a RoH, especially if I'm going van/perseverance, so I guess I just have to get past my OCD. 
I just dislike going to a lane without a regen item. I think part of it is preference, and part of it is your hero.
I admit I'm just copying the AI bot build of RoR/tangos. It works well, even if the RoR won't be used for anything.
I'm curious what Ack has to say (poke).
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Oh, and you can't use double RoR to get van, right?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2872/winvsteamcommonwealthwp1.jpg)
