I\'m new to DotA, and I need help understanding the items.
I\'m mostly concerned with what items to get at the start. I can usually figure out what items I want based on my hero and how to make them once I give it a minute or two to look.
But I don\'t know what to get at the start.
I see people go double bracer/band/talisman, or maybe I see them go Basilius and/or Headdress, or some other thing.
What I\'m looking for is a general idea of what items to buy based on whether I\'m str, agil, or int.
Yes, I know that items can change depending on what specific hero you have, so I\'m just asking generally what\'s good for each stat.
bracer/band/talisman is what you usually get first if you don't know much about the game yet - my friend when i started playing jus said always get two circlets because those three branch from the circlet always
i think basilius and headdress goes depending on the hero
and i'm kinda still new to dota but all agi heroes seem to be good with the butterfly
well..it does rather depend on your hero and your teams heros... basilius/headress i'd generally get when your int in lanes with allies. when your solo you want regen items(roh etc.). if your against nukers you want some +stats/regen. i'd say most common starting items...ring of health/rings of regen, headress, basilius, stat items(branches..circlets). it is based on your hero though, your team and who your against.
mmm, if you're new you might want to just stick to one hero and really get a feel for how the game dynamics work. Limiting the hero variable will also limit the item variable, and allow you to concentrate solely on the gameplay. Once that's settled in, picking the right items for each hero for various situations will be just a matter of knowledge and some experience.
I'm personally in favor of limiting the things you need to learn at once in the beginning, but that's just my take.
On July 10 2007 11:50 thedeadhaji wrote: mmm, if you're new you might want to just stick to one hero and really get a feel for how the game dynamics work. Limiting the hero variable will also limit the item variable, and allow you to concentrate solely on the gameplay. Once that's settled in, picking the right items for each hero for various situations will be just a matter of knowledge and some experience.
I'm personally in favor of limiting the things you need to learn at once in the beginning, but that's just my take.
Agreed with haji.
Irl friends and those in my vent who were completely new to dota I taught them how to play by playing two heroes:
Sniper and Sven.
They played those for about a week each and learned the important things like last hit, deny, gank, when to use and not use ulti, how to support your team, understanding auras, different item builds.
Also I have never bought wraith bands in the last several versions in serious games and have only bought them in pub games for some heroes like drow and sa. Very rarely.
You will learn that health items [bracer] are KING.
haji is right...stick with one hero and you'll be able to learn faster what will work best. it's hard to say a general begining build because it really is based on your hero/allies/other teams.
well....you need hp early so bracers are better to get most of the time.. like when i'm silencer i'll get nulls instead just because i enjoy abusing glaives early
id recommend starting with 2x circlet 4x tangos and chicken with the majority of heroes, and making 2 bracers with your circlets. bracers are the most cost effective way to get health early game which is what every hero needs and even gives some damage and mana to boot.
minimum 2x tangoes regardless of hero. unless someone shared chick (or u got it), then u can bring in tangoes if u get hurt.
4x ggbranch + tangoes is a safe bet for most heroes.
recently i tend to get items that help me last hit since i've been practicing new heroes.if you're new, i suggest the same thing. +2 agi (forgot the name) items on heroes like void and pa are far from an optimal choice, but help getting those last hits. so do nulls on visage or qop.
if u have a str hero, start with 2x gauntlets and 2x tangoes. amen.
its like ~38 hp, +2 dmg, and some extra mana for two branches :\ 38 hp will rarely keep you alive, +2 damage wont make a kill, and that mana wont let you cast more spells than before?!
if youre not going mek, isn't it a waste of money? or is it all about maximizing your inventory space?
I'm guessing it has something to do with the best stats for the money. Personally, I've had awesome experience just going double bracer/band/talisman, following that up with boots and then moving on to more stat/hero specific items.
branches are basically free. They also give the best stat / cost ratio. 5 branches give extra 50 or so mana, and 100 hp - which is useful
You can load up on branches, then as you need the space sell them back and get half the money refunded.
I'd just add, that if you're going the bracer route, don't bother buying the bracer upgrade until you need the space, for the same reason as above - the upgrader itself adds very little, compared to the cost.
On July 10 2007 11:50 thedeadhaji wrote: mmm, if you're new you might want to just stick to one hero and really get a feel for how the game dynamics work. Limiting the hero variable will also limit the item variable, and allow you to concentrate solely on the gameplay. Once that's settled in, picking the right items for each hero for various situations will be just a matter of knowledge and some experience.
I'm personally in favor of limiting the things you need to learn at once in the beginning, but that's just my take.
Agreed with haji.
Irl friends and those in my vent who were completely new to dota I taught them how to play by playing two heroes:
Sniper and Sven.
They played those for about a week each and learned the important things like last hit, deny, gank, when to use and not use ulti, how to support your team, understanding auras, different item builds.
Also I have never bought wraith bands in the last several versions in serious games and have only bought them in pub games for some heroes like drow and sa. Very rarely.
You will learn that health items [bracer] are KING.
Eww Ack you're such a noob hahahaha
edit: OP: Sniper is such an easy hero to play, and you can get good with him easily as well. Just get Treads then Skadi with 2 Bracers and you'll be fine. As for skills, just alternate between Range and Scattershot while getting Assassinate at its respective levels. Just last-hit, deny, gank when called to, get some kills. Easy
I had the misfortune to start DotA with Crystal Maiden (I randommed so I wouldn't look like a noob ) and I went like 0-27 or something. It was fun though :O
Sniper is such an awesome hero. Him and Razor I like a lot.
I tried doing that thing where you fill up on branches. It sucked. I honestly don't get why you'd do that, even if it is more cost effective.
So, I wanted to give you guys some examples, so please respond how you'd gear out each hero so I can get an idea of how to play things.
Sven Sniper Pugna Omniknight
And for Razor (I LOVE Razor), I usually go either Basilius, or dual bands, into BoS, Mael, Treads, Mjoll and by then either the game is over, or I'm raping. I usually go for radiance next.
So do people who go scattershot on sniper. It's all about headshot + range and stats afterwards.
Equi, you disappoint me T_T j/k
When I first started dota, my friends hardcoded me to be a bracer whore so I used to get bracers on just about any hero, which isn't bad unless you're naix or something.
Just think about what you want your hero to do for your team, whether it be DPS or disable.
Common mistake with newbs is that they go boots very early when they aren't necessary for the majority of heroes. What makes it worse is someone sees a queen of pain who went boots first go godlike and thinks it's ok, that he should take him as an example.
TP = friend. Have one at all times. I often have TP scrolls even though I have boots of travel since they take less to channel. On a related note, be conscious of the enemy lineup so you can escape ganks without being interrupted.
Hrmm what else, oh, people don't understand how good blink dagger is. It can be used both offensively and defensively and a good player with blink dagger is such a bitch to kill.
Eul's is godly, in most cases, better than dagon.
Ok, I think I'll end my stream of random thoughts there.
PS. I never buy ironwood branches unless I'm going meka/headress, just a pet peeve, I don't like the way they look
most people that are suggesting branches dont realize that these guys are probably playing em games since they are new and stuff and in em you have enough money that cost doesnt really matter at the beginning and thus starting off with 2x circ tangos is much easier and more space efficient when switching to bracers later in the game
Now, I totally get that each hero will have different demands, and that's fine, but what I'm really looking for is a "default" build to go with so that if I'm playing a hero I'm not used to, I'll be fine.
So is dual bracers a good idea? Or should I go dual bracers/bands/talismans depending on my main stat?
The two most common things I see are Basilius/tangos or dual bracers/bands/talismans and tangos.
For starters: 2-3x tango (depends on starting cash) + 5 branches This seems to work really fine for me, you can always switch to bracers/whatever later on.
And to correct Heen's post:
int: guinsoo/necronomicon str: heart/satanic (radiance isn't as good as many people think) agi: butterfly/mjolnir/mkb (in order of usefulness, although sometimes mjolnir comes before mkb)
On July 11 2007 02:18 Manit0u wrote: For starters: 2-3x tango (depends on starting cash) + 5 branches This seems to work really fine for me, you can always switch to bracers/whatever later on.
And to correct Heen's post:
int: guinsoo/necronomicon str: heart/satanic (radiance isn't as good as many people think) agi: butterfly/mjolnir/mkb (in order of usefulness, although sometimes mjolnir comes before mkb)
NEVER EVER get headress first, it makes your creeps stronger which means that most of the time you will be near the tower of the other team, which makes it almost impossible to get a kill
it totally depends on the hero but as mentioned before, 4-5 branches and some tangos are probably the best starting items
yeah, if you look at it that way, 1 bracer > 1 branch but when you look at the cost difference, branches give you better stats for much less gold. And it's something u can easily sell back to fit other items in. I usually don't get branches myself unless I'm a mek hero, or if i dont want to buy anythign else and dont wanna go out empty hehe ;]
bracers are incredibly helpful, you'll find that there's many situations where you would've died early game if it weren't for them. If you're talking about pub though, honestly, any item build works - _-
radiance is actually more helpful, i think, that most people think. it usually goes with carry heroes and it's usually the first core item they buy (your carry MUST be an efficient farmer)
i honestly play more pubs than more serious matches around 70/30% ratio because i hate waiting for everyone to meet up and get ready etc. when i get back from work pretty worn out, all i feel like doing is getting on b.net and joining a game asap to relieve me of my stress ;p
in more seirous games though, like someone alraedy mentioned, your starting items should depend on the other team/heroes (very situational). But in pubs, anything works i'm not even kidding.
if you're bored and looking for a weird way to play pubs, try rushing guinsoo w/ any hero; i think it's kinda funny, it actually works better with some heroes than you may first think. And plus, your team will love you. And if you're playing with 4 friends, have your whole team go guinsoo, disable ftw <33
err.. btw if any of you hapen to play DXD on west, does anyone know 420-Splash.? i've only played one game with him and he carried razor extremely well, but it's only one game so i don't know, his melee stats were really impressive too > _>;;
On July 11 2007 02:18 Manit0u wrote: For starters: 2-3x tango (depends on starting cash) + 5 branches This seems to work really fine for me, you can always switch to bracers/whatever later on.
And to correct Heen's post:
int: guinsoo/necronomicon str: heart/satanic (radiance isn't as good as many people think) agi: butterfly/mjolnir/mkb (in order of usefulness, although sometimes mjolnir comes before mkb)
I posted as few items as possible since giving a huge list wouldn't be specific enough. In my defense (since you used the term 'correct' ):
Necronomicon, a great item, but difficult to use for newcomers and more often than not guinsoos is overall better.
Radiance is underrated if anything. It's relatively cheap too.
You seem to be a butterfly fan while I'm a MKB whore. Again, different results on different heroes. No need to make generalizations as if I'm wrong t.t
As for mjolnir, never liked it. Quite frankly, I think it's a piece of shit.
On July 11 2007 03:08 BlueRoyaL wrote: err.. btw if any of you hapen to play DXD on west, does anyone know 420-Splash.? i've only played one game with him and he carried razor extremely well, but it's only one game so i don't know, his melee stats were really impressive too > _>;;
random yes.
Razor needs TONS of skill. (sarcasm) How is he with Chen?
On July 11 2007 03:07 BlueRoyaL wrote: yeah, if you look at it that way, 1 bracer > 1 branch but when you look at the cost difference, branches give you better stats for much less gold. And it's something u can easily sell back to fit other items in. I usually don't get branches myself unless I'm a mek hero, or if i dont want to buy anythign else and dont wanna go out empty hehe ;]
bracers are incredibly helpful, you'll find that there's many situations where you would've died early game if it weren't for them. If you're talking about pub though, honestly, any item build works - _-
radiance is actually more helpful, i think, that most people think. it usually goes with carry heroes and it's usually the first core item they buy (your carry MUST be an efficient farmer)
i honestly play more pubs than more serious matches around 70/30% ratio because i hate waiting for everyone to meet up and get ready etc. when i get back from work pretty worn out, all i feel like doing is getting on b.net and joining a game asap to relieve me of my stress ;p
in more seirous games though, like someone alraedy mentioned, your starting items should depend on the other team/heroes (very situational). But in pubs, anything works i'm not even kidding.
if you're bored and looking for a weird way to play pubs, try rushing guinsoo w/ any hero; i think it's kinda funny, it actually works better with some heroes than you may first think. And plus, your team will love you. And if you're playing with 4 friends, have your whole team go guinsoo, disable ftw <33
if we are 5, we never play pub games cause its just 30-0 bashing, but i guess 5 mekas, 5 arcane rings and 5 necrobooks would be pretty fun too :D
On July 10 2007 11:50 thedeadhaji wrote: mmm, if you're new you might want to just stick to one hero and really get a feel for how the game dynamics work. Limiting the hero variable will also limit the item variable, and allow you to concentrate solely on the gameplay. Once that's settled in, picking the right items for each hero for various situations will be just a matter of knowledge and some experience.
I'm personally in favor of limiting the things you need to learn at once in the beginning, but that's just my take.
Agreed with haji.
Irl friends and those in my vent who were completely new to dota I taught them how to play by playing two heroes:
Sniper and Sven.
They played those for about a week each and learned the important things like last hit, deny, gank, when to use and not use ulti, how to support your team, understanding auras, different item builds.
Also I have never bought wraith bands in the last several versions in serious games and have only bought them in pub games for some heroes like drow and sa. Very rarely.
You will learn that health items [bracer] are KING.
Eww Ack you're such a noob hahahaha
edit: OP: Sniper is such an easy hero to play, and you can get good with him easily as well. Just get Treads then Skadi with 2 Bracers and you'll be fine. As for skills, just alternate between Range and Scattershot while getting Assassinate at its respective levels. Just last-hit, deny, gank when called to, get some kills. Easy
I had the misfortune to start DotA with Crystal Maiden (I randommed so I wouldn't look like a noob ) and I went like 0-27 or something. It was fun though :O
On July 11 2007 01:48 rpf wrote: Now, I totally get that each hero will have different demands, and that's fine, but what I'm really looking for is a "default" build to go with so that if I'm playing a hero I'm not used to, I'll be fine.
So is dual bracers a good idea? Or should I go dual bracers/bands/talismans depending on my main stat?
The two most common things I see are Basilius/tangos or dual bracers/bands/talismans and tangos.
Dual Bracers is basic; if you're having problems staying alive, get more if you need to. I played a game with Viper and to keep myself from dying before I farmed the necessary items for MKB I got 5 Bracers and Boots -_-;;
On July 11 2007 02:48 rpf wrote: Can someone please explain this whole branch thing to me? I don't see the point, really. You get better stats from bracers.
Well, Branches just provide stupidly easy extra stat points; gives you a little edge. If you're really adamant about getting them, just get 2 Circlets, 1 Flask and 1 Clarity. I tried it several times and it works fine compared to 6 Branches or w/e in the beginning.
On July 11 2007 03:08 BlueRoyaL wrote: err.. btw if any of you hapen to play DXD on west, does anyone know 420-Splash.? i've only played one game with him and he carried razor extremely well, but it's only one game so i don't know, his melee stats were really impressive too > _>;;
random yes.
Razor needs TONS of skill. (sarcasm) How is he with Chen?
Oh man Razor DOES need tons of skill. Same with Skeleton King! STORM BOLT! WALK! HIT! LIFESTEAL! CRITICAL! STORM BOLT! KILL!
Skeleton King is the most retardedly easy hero to play -_- Once you get a damage item (MKB/Radiance/Buriza) and get BoTs, game is all uphill from there
Why do everyone say scattershot suck? it makes sniper farm REALLY nice, if you get BOT-scattershot you should like get MAAAASSS money ... try it.. tp somewere, kill the creeps off easy and get huge amount of cash, tp to next lane, do same thing until you get money for w/e you want
On July 11 2007 13:54 Vedesole wrote: Why do everyone say scattershot suck? it makes sniper farm REALLY nice, if you get BOT-scattershot you should like get MAAAASSS money ... try it.. tp somewere, kill the creeps off easy and get huge amount of cash, tp to next lane, do same thing until you get money for w/e you want
Because if you're a competent player you will get an equal or greater amount by using last hit with his insane range.
Not to mention the gold you get from scattershot matters naught when you kill heroes a lot easier with headshot. Headshot also has a ministun getting rid of anything that channels and interrupts a lot of shit. You can interrupt your opponent's last hit and then last hit and deny your creeps all you want.
Mana is much better saved on assassinate. The game is not all about pushing.
I really don't like going branches. I see how it's more cost effective, but lately I've loved going dual bracer/band/talisman depending on my hero, as I can have them all game, whereas with branches I have to sell them one by one to get other items.
Is it just me or are stats much more important than regen?
Oh, and what is the default regen rate for HP/MP? 1/sec for each?
Having both is useful, but regeneration will allow you to stay on lane longer. In the beginning regeneration is much more useful while late game having enough health to stay alive is important.
yeah scattershot for pubs is fine, most people get lazy to lasthit/deny on pubs anyways but you definately need the headshot for any serious games, it comes so handy you have no idea
you see sk burrowstrike somewhere immediately focus on him and laugh as his attempt to ulti is interrupted. same with heroes like pugna, CM, etc etc. Use it to stop heroes from using BoT to get away. and most obviously, this makes last hitting cake as you'll have more "error room" to estimate when to hit.
i never get mjollnir either, not that i think it sucks, but i dunno. it just doesn't fit me o_o
On July 11 2007 11:32 Equinox_kr wrote: Dual Bracers is basic; if you're having problems staying alive, get more if you need to. I played a game with Viper and to keep myself from dying before I farmed the necessary items for MKB I got 5 Bracers and Boots -_-;;
no offense, 5 bracers is stupid in any situation imo might as well just buy a vitality booster and keep that and upgrade to heart later if you need. saves room and you save money cuz you wont be selling all those bracers
the most bracers i've ever gotten on a hero was 3. anymore than that i feel like im wasting money that could be better spent or saved to use on core items
i have a question about silencer though. i never really used him before, i did in a few pubs cuz i ended up randoming him
what's the item build and skill build for competitive play? is dagger viable on him? cuz i dont know from the few pubs ive played it worked well, without guinsoo early game i couldnt really chase anyone so dagger let me get a lotta kills i wouldn't have been able to get without
On July 11 2007 22:20 BlueRoyaL wrote: i have a question about silencer though. i never really used him before, i did in a few pubs cuz i ended up randoming him
what's the item build and skill build for competitive play? is dagger viable on him? cuz i dont know from the few pubs ive played it worked well, without guinsoo early game i couldnt really chase anyone so dagger let me get a lotta kills i wouldn't have been able to get without
if you can buy a dagger, just save a bit more for a euls ;p
About the Mjollnir, it does suck unless you're using Razor. Try taking on a melee enemy hero with Mjoll's shield on you, with your ult and Radiance going to work, with you sitting there proc'ing chain lightning while casting your own, with frenzy up.
On July 11 2007 22:20 BlueRoyaL wrote: i have a question about silencer though. i never really used him before, i did in a few pubs cuz i ended up randoming him
what's the item build and skill build for competitive play? is dagger viable on him? cuz i dont know from the few pubs ive played it worked well, without guinsoo early game i couldnt really chase anyone so dagger let me get a lotta kills i wouldn't have been able to get without
well, as silencer i would say(this is just based on my experience as silencer) max glaive early. you can do other skills as you wish..but harassing early with glaive is crazy;s dagger? eh i would say that isn't a very good item for silencer....you're not really meant to be chasing people down, and if you want to kill before they run..get bot/guinsoo. by time you have enough for dagger you could just use it to get bot instead.
On July 11 2007 22:20 BlueRoyaL wrote: i have a question about silencer though. i never really used him before, i did in a few pubs cuz i ended up randoming him
what's the item build and skill build for competitive play? is dagger viable on him? cuz i dont know from the few pubs ive played it worked well, without guinsoo early game i couldnt really chase anyone so dagger let me get a lotta kills i wouldn't have been able to get without
well, as silencer i would say(this is just based on my experience as silencer) max glaive early. you can do other skills as you wish..but harassing early with glaive is crazy;s dagger? eh i would say that isn't a very good item for silencer....you're not really meant to be chasing people down, and if you want to kill before they run..get bot/guinsoo. by time you have enough for dagger you could just use it to get bot instead.
ive been playing silencer alot, hes one of my favourite heroes skills: glaives+stats+ulti till lvl 11 then last word, then stats again
items: 2 nulls midas bot sheepstick hot
in that order
and make sure (if its not pub, dont do it in pub games) to share with every1 so they can use ur ulti if they get ganged even if u play with vent, the 1 sec vent delay is too long for using ur ulti by urself
Sven - 3 ways [ bottle, arcane, basilius ] if basilius go for all out push save armor level points until your wagon comes then turn on basilius armor and get armor aura. Bottle for ganking, arcane for hammer spam. 2x bracer cuirass/heart
Gorgon - If you go stats lightning [ as you should ] 2x bracer work radiance into skadi. If you got split shot mana shield/ just get skadi I guess but that build is no good.
On July 12 2007 10:15 {ToT}Strafe wrote: I disagree with sven/gorgon and sniper
can you tell us the better builds for them then please?
btw, ack or strafe do you guys have any CW replays where you were playing serious that you wouldnt mind uploading? there's some stuff i'd like to learn ;p
sniper i just get boots, some 1 or 2 health pots and then MKB, bot. Then you can get whatever u need, HP or more dmg ie Hot or buriza/butterfly.
gorgon I play different from anyone else. I get Lightning/stat/lightning/stat/lightning/purge/lightning/shield max then stats. I never make split shot. So in order to sustain the huge amount of mana for gorgon I get Basilius first, then boots, headress, 2 null talisman, some dmg item like crystalys or if you suck at last hitting and are lazy get maelstrom, then i get linkens. there you can make buriza/mjollner and butterfly dmg whatever. last items really dont matter anyway;o
On July 13 2007 01:53 rpf wrote: Okay, I need some more help.
1. Why do people always seem to grab a pair of bracers/bands/talismans? Is there a specific reason for grabbing two? Why not one?
2. When should I go bracers/bands/talismans? Whne should I go for basilius/headdress?
3. Why do people seem to only go basilius and omit health regen? Maybe it's just my OCD that makes me want to get basilius/headdress together.
1: no, theres not if u think u got enough mana to do all the spells you wanna do//have enough mana regen, take 0 nulls if u think u got enough hp to survive everything the enemy throws at you, get 0 bracer
totally depends on the game and the opponents, there are games where i get 0 bracers with a hero cause i get away from anything easily, cause the other team sucks, and then in another game with the same hero, i suddenly get 2 bracers
2: i think since the start of arcane ring, ive never made a single basilus anymore, arcane is much more expensive but much better for you AND your team
i only get headress when i wanna get a meka, if not get some tangos, no need to do headress, just heals your creeps and you are standing near an enemy tower all the time due to that
3: watch dota reps from some pro teams (SK,MyM,VP,TeG,sP), u will not see any1 geting basil
Where can I find some good replays? I've downloaded some, but they were either corrupt, on an older version and I didn't have the map, or there was a note saying the replay sucked or something.
What I was asking about the bracer thing is that it seems like everyone gets them in pairs. I was just unsure if there's a specific reason or some underlying logic in getting *two* as opposed to just getting one. Do you get what I mean?
On July 13 2007 04:50 rpf wrote: Where can I find some good replays? I've downloaded some, but they were either corrupt, on an older version and I didn't have the map, or there was a note saying the replay sucked or something.
What I was asking about the bracer thing is that it seems like everyone gets them in pairs. I was just unsure if there's a specific reason or some underlying logic in getting *two* as opposed to just getting one. Do you get what I mean?
no reason for getting two~ it's entirely situational
but i do see a lot of people getting two bracers in pubs i guess two bracers generally give enough hp to survive until the hero can get his core items :}
edit: but, as stated before, if you can forgo bracers, all the better :}
On July 13 2007 05:51 rpf wrote: Ah, okay. I didn't know if it was like, "Get two of these so that xyz, etc."
That made no sense so I hope you got it. ^^ I didn't know if it was just some intricacy.
Okay so:
Str: heart Agi: bfly/radiance/mael Int: guin
Why the hell radiance on agi?! Pointless. Bfly/mkb/mael. Radiance is for specter, and some melee heroes in general but it's not as good as other items you can get for the similar price (mkb for instance is 10x better imo).
downloaded VP vs SK last night, awesome games from 2 of the best teams out there was played -xl tho, which i dont like very much, apdraft is more fun imo
Brain, I know DotA doesn't work like that. I just need a "default" plan in mind for when I'm playing a hero I'm not familiar with. For example, the first hero I got to know is Razor, so I go bands or bracers, BoS, Mael, BoT, Mjoll on him. But I won't do the same on another agi hero because other heroes don't benefit from Mael as much as Razor does, which I figured out on my own.
But the next time I played another agi hero, I didn't know what to get, so I ended up doing the exact same build until I realized I should have gone bfly.
The biggest problem I have now is learning which items to get on which heroes, and why. For example last night I got sat on dragon knight, and my team yelled at me because I didn't go battle fury or vanguard. I didn't realize the lifesteal was useless for me because of the passive regen on him already, but I thought it'd be a great item for any str hero, so.
But like I said, I just need a "default" build for each stat so that I have some to fall back on, even if it isn't the best build possible.
its a chance to do 100 dmg on attack +slight stun. also has a chance to cancel channeling spells(i think? for some reason im not sure about this). and adds a nice amount of damage.
Yes of course you need bkb on sven, that build fucking destroys lina, lesh, cm etc...
Sniper you need to just last hit like a mother fucker and get up your damage mkb is okay if there's a shit load of casters and you need as much ministun from headshot and mkb as possible. If not you can always go straight skadi [ I never do this unless it's qop ] or just go for the now useless sheepstick build on him [ His ulti used to be 5 or around there now it's 8 seconds at level 3 cooldown so sheepstick regen was nice ]
Gorgon: Yet to really see her used in league games...
Stygian > Mkb at gold dmg ratio, was proven I guess I could find it for you if you want.....There's some crazy matheletes over at the dota forums.
And to clear it up mkb is like headshot in that it has a random chance to ministun [ cancelling channeling spells, among other things ] and that ministun does a bonus +100 damage. Does not stack with headshot. Yeah the wording is a little confusing on that item. I used to think it did 100 extra damage on a channeled spell to till I realized that his only ' channel ' is assassinate.
First one is a lot more lax than the second, it's an inhouse between friends. It was the first inhouse league style [ it's -xl ] for a guy we ended up picking up on our team. He posts here as Judicator in game he is Impulsive. I'm DA ILLEST NIGGA. I was hosting listchecker so that's why I could have spaces in my name. I play QoP in this game and I do some of the best last hitting I've done in a while in the lane against one of the more decent players on my team + another guy. Things to watch for is how to last hit team battles and just basic mechanics. It's boring but good stuff to learn if you're new I guess.
This second game is a CAL-IM League match against team r1ce who is pretty good on the smaller scale of dota [ not international pro teams ] and they have a pretty good record against good teams in North America. This is the second game and it's -lm [ sent heroes vs scourge heroes ] where we got our dicks sucked in the first but this was a very fun game to win against them. My shadowfiend is pretty good this game. I'm only dead for a minute and 12 seconds in this entire 63:43 fiasco. This was probably our team's best scourge -lm lineup.
The items themselves really overwhelm me. I've yet to use them all, so that's part of the problem.
But let me get a few things straight:
1. Start off with either (a) +stats, such as bracers/bands/talismans, or (b) regen items, such as RoR, RoB, RoH, or work towards hood/mek/perseverance.
2. BoS
3. Work on your first core item. This could be one that improves your abilities, like a Vanguard, or one that fills in where you're otherwise lacking, like a dagger or lothar's.
4. Work on a more expensive item. This usually contains an expensive weapon from the secret shop, whereas the item in (3) does not.
Does this seem about right? It seems to be the pattern I notice most people follow.
Edit: What do the orb effects on the bkb and mkb do?
Personally, at the very beginning of games I get RoR, Bracer or Circlet, and Tangos. This is for every hero, unless I get a nuker, in which case I buy some clarities instead of RoR. Of course, I'm not a competitive player, but I usually manage to dominate pubs with this opener. After that, it all depends on the heroes.
Later on, if you have absolutely no idea what to get and you have a Strength/Agi hero, I suggest you buy a Heart. Ditto with Euls for int heroes.
and stygian is a very effective item that aids the entire team and dishes out more damage than the buriza against lower armor heroes, given that your damage output isn't that high to begin with.
Since you asked, regen is HP: 0.25 + 0.03 * STR + flat regen bonus by items/skills MANA: (0.01 + 0.04 * INT) * (100% + % increasing items) + flat bonus by brilliance auras
On July 14 2007 02:29 paper wrote: BKB and MKB don't have orb effects :s
and stygian is a very effective item that aids the entire team and dishes out more damage than the buriza against lower armor heroes, given that your damage output isn't that high to begin with.
Your damage being high or low does not make a difference, since both criticals and armor reduction increase your damage by %, what matters is opponents armor, since around 5-10 armor the desolator is a lot more effective than a buriza. Even with higher(or lower) armor amounts the Desolator is more cost efficient than the Buriza, but obviously it's not so much space efficient ;P
I have trouble here because of chain lightning being spammable, and not having regen items is a bitch.
So, I'm stuck between:
a. 4 tangos/work on 2 bracers
or
b. basilius/4 tangos (should I go headdress after this to even out the regen?)
After that, though, I go:
boots mael bot mjoll
Thoughts?
You really don't need lothar's so much, unless enemy team is ganking you like mad. It's usually better to go straight damage on this heroes so for sniper mkb/deso and for drow mkb/butterfly.
btw. the last game I played was such a horrible experience -mr (turned out to be teamrandom), I got viper, was owning enemies pretty bad but my team fed them nicely and later in the game the horror, the horror! Drow, Venge, Luna... Drow had butterfly, mkb and buriza. When vs and luna were around her damage oscilated around +450-500... Owned our whole team before we could do anything.
Those are the best you'll find. Some of those guides are actually very good though I must say because they are written with the aid of some pro players.
They have everything from how to play, what to do against what heroes, item builds, skill builds, exact item orders, core items into late game. It pretty much spoon feeds you how to play dota.
If I remember correctly when I first started playing [6.19b] I was not at all overwhelmed by items and because I was literate it was very easy to learn what all the items did. I was more overwhelmed by the vast amount of heroes. I usually just stole item builds from things I saw in pubs or just general things like sheepstick for int, heart for str, and butterfly for agi. Just remember to have fun first and try out all the items you want.
I feel kinda bad for new players because back when I started almost all the changes were based on some heroes being extremely ridiculous and gaping glitch holes in the game. Nowadays Icefrog has completely changed his agenda for competitive level dota [ not to blame dota is growing very fast ] and now all his changes revolve around small details after the huge game overhaul [ wagons, tower's not regenerating, deny being worth a lot less, no aegis ] Imo it's a lot harder for people to learn the game now as to where before I could confidently say anyone with an above average learning curve could get good at dota.
Also I think that he should be introducing more items and not more heroes, but in general the game is doing okay for now and he should just stick to improvements and not introducing new material. I guess it was easier for me to learn items since ALL the new items at the new item shop did not exist. They are also among the most wordy descriptions. Hey, if you want I guess you could even download an old version of dota and play around with friends. [ I went back to the 5 versions and played ] It's a lot different and you really learn how the changes effect the game. In the 5.xx versions there was absolutely no way to juke anywhere through trees and fog was more ridiculous than starcraft. You really appreciate the map nowadays and it's one of the best assets for a player to know the map like the back of your hand.
And finally, the worst feeling I have for new people is that they now have a very small chance to try out the divine aegis combo in pubs. When I started out every 1/5 games there was a divine. Now it's like 1 in every 15. Hell people even stacked multiple divines because aegis had 3 charges.
I have trouble here because of chain lightning being spammable, and not having regen items is a bitch.
So, I'm stuck between:
a. 4 tangos/work on 2 bracers
or
b. basilius/4 tangos (should I go headdress after this to even out the regen?)
After that, though, I go:
boots mael bot mjoll
Thoughts?
In all honesty I will let you know ahead of time that some heroes are just never going to be great at games because the only time they really shine is situational. For example gorgon's only real str is her purge and the one hero that she destroys naturally is Naix. She can farm but there's so many more heroes who can outfarm her by threefold at least and are much more useful. And as you probably know nobody uses naix seriously...
A bit of advice: Don't ever lock yourself into an item build other than your core items and your first two bracers. I seem to notice [ and you said earlier ] you like to have basilius and headdress. There is no need for this. There's also no reason to try and cover up everything your hero is missing with items I.E buying a ring of regen cuz your hero has no natural regen skills.
Remember: Items are there to amplify your heroes abilities! And sometimes this does require covering up something your hero is missing contrary to what I just said. But consider this: Sven's most important item in a competitive game is BKB. But why? He has a stun, he has an armor aura, he can cleave, he even does monster damage. If Sven gets disabled somehow you're potentially missing out on a huge godstrength cleave and his stun that can disable other people.
You'd think that because all he's actually missing is attack speed you'd get a hyperstone asap but you have to understand unlike the hyperstone the BKB helps his entire skillset and amplifies him greatly as a team asset.
Even items like midas are simply there to amplify your hero's abilities later on! Some heroes simply need to farm for the item which will amplify them.
I guess I just have to learn the items and the heroes. :/ I get the whole buying items to amplify your heroes abilities thing, it's just that some heroes, like sniper and drow, seem to get raped unless they stay with their entire team, which is why I always go Lothar's as quick as I can. It's next to impossible to gank me that way, unless they have a gem or rupture me or something.
lothar's is such a shitty item for its cost. the enemy puts down a ward for 100 gold and totally nulls your 7 second windwalk. you only need to be in the sight range of the sentry for less than 1 second for the enemy to see the direction you're going in, and you're owned. just go for damage and partner with a disabler or don't do anything stupid -__-;
On July 14 2007 11:09 {ToT}Strafe wrote: I don't think when I buy items. I'm like HOW CAN I CRUSH THOSE BASTARDS ASAP
qft~!
edit: avatar: magic immunity -- same as naix's ult
The problems you're experiencing with sniper and drow are not uncommon. It's the game's way of teaching you how to anticipate ganks and how to watch the minimap every 5 seconds or so.
When I play a weak hero like clinkz [ even though he has ww ] drow, sniper, visage [ early ] etc I play in a more aware state of my map positioning. Don't forget that neutral creeping is your friend. And I don't mean using scattershot and drow's ulti [ which you shouldn't get until 10-11 anyway ] to farm but still getting headshot+range and silence+frost so when you do get in team battles you won't be useless. Basically it may sound like I'm telling you to play like a pussy but a sniper in the hands of any good player will take a few shots run in and out of the woods harassing and then teammates will usually come and they assassinate for the kill. That's just the way he is played.
1v1 he out last-hits and just abuses his range. If he runs away you chase [ but don't get baited ] and finish with assassinate. But you can't put all your concentration in this otherwise you get ganked.
which last night me and 3 friends did. we played 4vs5. so we picked THD/KOTL/SF and sven. After some basic items all we did was feed sven sven was equipped with HOT and Rapier VERY fast
btw anyone ever finished someone's rapier by giving them the last item {sacred/clay/demon} and killing them to take it? :d that would be utterly sexy ;o~~~
On July 14 2007 18:31 paper wrote: who calls it feeding?! pooling ftw~
btw anyone ever finished someone's rapier by giving them the last item {sacred/clay/demon} and killing them to take it? :d that would be utterly sexy ;o~~~
yeah, my friend would do that do another friend which just started playing, he didnt even know what happened haha i felt so bad for him
What is all this branch thing? It really is a stupid way to go, even if you want to go meka later. Commonly first items are tangos and mana potions. How many? It depends.. usually 2x tango, and potions up to your active spell. For example I usually get 4 potions with bounty hunter. Vengeful spirit can go for many manas too and spam bolts.
Now next item can be a empty bottle for some heroes, for example : vengeful spirit, chaos knight, spectre, sven could too... heroes that require mana for spells early and they aren't int + arcane would be a waste for them. Nerubian assasin, Tiny go for arcane.
I'm never sure what to buy for omni knight in the beginning, and his skill choices always differ such a omni hero.
Tormented soul build : - 2x Tango, 3x mana - boots or energy booster - arcane ring - 2x bracer if needed(usually is) - ring of regeneration into meka - void stone in the meantime, if you're doing well BoT instead(can be even before meka) - HoT and Assault - ?Skadi Skill choice for me : lightning(for great range abuse, damage and 5 second cooldown), explosions(towers, killing creeps/heroes)
Spectre build : - tangos, potions(aren't that necessary) - empty bottle - power threads - bracers if needed or stout shield - mask of madness if you are doing fine - +10 armor to be tough or more hp - damage item ... Skill choice : Dagger and Desolate
branches give you a slight edge in the beginning as a very cheap item that can be sold for nearly its price given its low low cost. if youre playing -em tho, yeah, it's pretty useless.
I've been looking at damage items a bit, lately, as I know that HoT/Bfly/Guin are "safe" items for each stat. But they aren't always the best for each hero.
For example, I think that going Mjoll or Radiance on Razor over a Bfly is better, as it stacks well with his abilities. Bfly isn't bad, but not ideal.
Same with Magna. Heart isn't ideal, as going Bfury stacks with his cleave ability, and when you dagger/ulti, you're doing massive AoE damage. Again, HoT is good, but not ideal.
So, I looked at the items list, and noticed there are a bunch of items that are pretty much just +dmg, and don't really have stats. Can someone explain why and when each item is needed/good to buy?
Desolator Bfury Crys/Buriza Mkb
And then there are three items that have a small amount of stats and some use ability. Should these be bought depending on your main stat, or should they be taken based on their ability? I'm talking about:
Bkb Lothar's Dagon
And what really confuses me are the two items that give two different stats, and has some other ability to it. Again, are these taken based on your main stat, the stat that you gain more from, or are they taken based on their ability? I'm talking about:
Diffusal/Manta Necro S&Y
And what about skadi? It's obviously not a main stat item, so would I be wrong to assume it's good for int heroes since it would fill in their weaknesses? (Lack of health, survivability [running from slowed enemies], etc.)
Desolator : one of the best damage/gold items; aids the entire team when you target an enemy hero as it negates 6 armor which is huge at lower armor levels (i think -2~0 enemy armor gives optimal damage, but it continues to be useful as the game progresses in terms of enemy armor improvement) (mathcraft: http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=140913) Battlefury : generally accepted as overpriced for what it gives you, but imo pretty useful with SK, altho i'd rather get a dagger first Crys/Buriza : i havent bought a buriza in so long~ i think there are much better items like the MKB, and i believe stygian does more damage. (source: http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=140913) MKB : i didn't discover this sexy item until a while after i started playing dota. one of the best damage/gold items. imo, if you can farm it very early, it rapes~ plus the mini-stun is nice
BKB : pretty standard on sven & cm; bought for its active ability obviously ;] Lothar's : only get it if youre getting ganked/raped, but if you get that lothar's, is it really going to turn the game around? 1) it's pretty shitty damage, 2) easily countered, 3) delays your core items Dagon : ehhh xD generally a waste of money~
Diffusal/Manta : good for manaburn (not the stats)! the purge is very nice too. make sure you use all/most of the charges if you turn it into a manta, it's worth it to delay the manta to use up charges sometimes. btw, images mana burn also Necro : i'd only get this as a str/int hero as it gives hp for int heroes and mana for str heroes. if you can micro it, get it~! i usually get this as BM. the mana burn is good, +move spd is nifty, and level three true sight is nice against invis. S&Y : pretty shitty item imo. viable maybe for BH and SB? 99% of the time, there is a better item for the hero
What was paper wrong about? It seems pretty accurate to me.
What does Bkb's active do?
And why do so many people say to get mkb on sniper? They're two different effects, so they don't stack. You're basically wasting a ton of gold to get +10% chance to headshot. I think any other item would be better.
I just played gorgon in a game, and everyone told me I should have gone basilius and turned off armor aura. Should I have? I figure, I don't need shield until later, so having the mana to sustain it doesn't seem necessary anyhow. Besides, I tend to not blow all of my mana on CL at the beginning anyhow. I use it to "punish" a player who gets too close to me when there are creeps to be killed still.
I know you posted your own build, so I was hoping to hear more of your thoughts on gorgon. She's incredibly mana dependent, so I was thinking, what about an arcane ring later to help keep shield up?
I bet you'll flame me for doing mek on Lich, but try it and you'll see why I did it. You're fucking hard to kill, especially between dropping chain frost, nova (with dark ritual keeping you full) and if someone tries to gank you, you mek and run. :D
Going straight to butterfly is a pretty bad idea on sniper. I prefer starting out with SnY and going for a more 'steady' build.
Manta sucks on sniper, what the hell, man. Don't like deso on him that much either. MKB is a popular choice on sniper since his base damage sucks and the extra ministuns do make a difference. Also, blink dagger is surprising good on sniper, a cheaper alternative to lothar's you could say, but it can be used better in the right hands.
I just played gorgon in a game, and everyone told me I should have gone basilius and turned off armor aura. Should I have? I figure, I don't need shield until later, so having the mana to sustain it doesn't seem necessary anyhow. Besides, I tend to not blow all of my mana on CL at the beginning anyhow. I use it to "punish" a player who gets too close to me when there are creeps to be killed still.
I don't get people who get mael on Gorgon. Is it just because it's cool to have dual lightning then? Her attack speed isn't very impressive either.
I know you posted your own build, so I was hoping to hear more of your thoughts on gorgon. She's incredibly mana dependent, so I was thinking, what about an arcane ring later to help keep shield up?
That's as bad as getting arcane ring on skeleton king to make sure you have enough mana to reincarnate.
Well, the extra mana from RoB would let you CL more often, but then again, using it whenever you have the mana often isn't effective. That's why I now wait to CL only when it's a situation where I can punish another player (i.e. a melee hero coming in to last hit/deny, or a ranged hero coming in to try to hit me with autoattack while I go for a last hit/deny).
I'm honestly not a big fan of regen, to be perfectly fucking honest. I just don't like it unless I'm going hood/mek/perseverance in which case it's not so bad. I really don't like RoR/RoB too much. The regen isn't that impressive. But, I can't deny it, one RoR is often enough to make up for my CL harass.
I go BoT on Lich because I'm too systematic about my builds. I look at a hero build in different phases.
Phase 1: starting items (i.e. bracer mats/consumables) Phase 2: boots, finish starting items (i.e. bracer recipes) Phase 3: core item (i.e. heart/bfly/guin) Phase 4: BoT (to farm, defend, etc.) Phase 5: other stuff at the end of the game
Oh, and the reason for mael/mjoll on gorgon is because she's an amazing farmer between split shot and CL procs. Granted when CL procs, you don't get the triple shot, but then again a 150/200 CL dropping into a creep wave is a hell of a lot better than split shot hitting three guys.
How do you play: Magna Razor Gorgon Drow Sniper Lich Maiden
Some other various questions: Is it best to go straight for L3/4 item, or should I work my way up, getting stuff from each consecutive shop?
I was just in a game, where every agi hero went S&Y --> bfly, whereas I went straight to quartstaff after my beginning items and boots were done.
I dislike having such an expensive item to save for, especially when I'm using to slowly working my way up. Like, on Razor, I go from starting items/boots to mael, which isn't a huge leap. Each component is fairly cheap, and so I get a decent item earlier on, whereas if I go straight to bfly, I've got nothing for a looooooong time.
Like how before I asked for a basic idea of what to go for, and I was told hot/bfly/guin for their respective main stats, but what do I get before that item and after I get boots? Should I go straight for that item (or a high level item that better fits my hero) after my beginning items are done or what?
Well, neither razor nor medusa is meant to be killing by themselves early game. It's not like they have great lane control either, the extra mana won't make much of a difference anyway.
It's much better to have a logical build than a systematical one I used to have a friend who used to go 2 bracers and BoT and perserverance on just about any hero and it pissed me off since he didn't have a clear purpose and he never listened to my suggestions. Think of it like BO in BW. If you scout Z going 12 hatch, why would you build a cannon instead of nexus.
Split shot has sucked for a while now, especially since they made divine medusa less viable. The reason I don't like mael is because it's not even THAT good of a farming item, and in pvp it sucks even more.
BoT, HoM, and radiance are far better than mael for farming.
On July 16 2007 01:13 rpf wrote: Strafe, I'll take you up on your offer:
How do you play: Magna Razor Gorgon Drow Sniper Lich Maiden
magna: dagger, dagger, dagger
its the only item you really need to win huge 5on5 fights, as long as ur team knows what to do you should also get som,e kind of mana regen so u can spam wave all the time, the dmg output is insane compared to its low mana cost
perseverance, dagger, from there on get bot and hp items imo
i dont really play razor,gorgon,drow or sniper
lich: meka, dagger, bot, after that its up to you
maiden: dagger, bkb, after that up to you, i would get aghanims for the extra hp+ better ulti
On July 16 2007 02:23 rpf wrote: bkb is a str item, why would you get it on an int hero? Or is the stat part not really the important part?
Let me guess, dagger to get a perfect ult, bkb to avoid disables?
Nobody gets BKB for stats. Stats/DMG are just extra. BKB is for heroes who are too vulnerable without it, such as clinkz.
Dagger just has so many uses. You can get into position faster and surprise opponents and it can be used to 'hop' into a battle and cast ult. In any case, you go dagger before BKB on CM.
Paper, I know I'm hung up on systematic builds and all that, but that's just how my brain works. :/
I mean, I guess I have to learn that each hero has its own strengths and weaknesses. Tonight, I was told to go guin on ursa, and I just laughed, but when I thought about it, I'd own with it. It'd give me the disable I'd need to get some free hits in before/after I stun. Stack that with my ult and that other ability that increases damage, and you'd have a great hero.
Too bad I refused to go guin on a str hero.
And what's the deal with SnY? Some people *hate* this item, and some people seem to swear by it. I was in an apem earlier where every single agi hero got an SnY, except for me.
On July 16 2007 04:25 rpf wrote: Paper, I know I'm hung up on systematic builds and all that, but that's just how my brain works. :/
I mean, I guess I have to learn that each hero has its own strengths and weaknesses. Tonight, I was told to go guin on ursa, and I just laughed, but when I thought about it, I'd own with it. It'd give me the disable I'd need to get some free hits in before/after I stun. Stack that with my ult and that other ability that increases damage, and you'd have a great hero.
Too bad I refused to go guin on a str hero.
And what's the deal with SnY? Some people *hate* this item, and some people seem to swear by it. I was in an apem earlier where every single agi hero got an SnY, except for me.
It's easy to make and that's why pub players love it, but it just provides a little bit of everything and serves no concrete purpose, you shouldn't be getting items just because you have to buy something, but because you need it. If you need speed, get Dagger or BoT. If you need damage, get a Desolator/Buriza/MKB/Radiance/Butterfly/Mjolnir(the last 2 on agi heroes only), they provide around 3 times more DPS. If you need tughness, get a heart(965 hp > 304hp), or Hood(~42% EHP increase vs Magic), or Butterfly(~42% EHP increase vs Attacks).
Every time I see Clinkz with a SnY, I fucking want to punch that stupid fucker, not to mention they often combine it a satanic, so they can have a crappy leech off their crappy damage, yay!
Also, Ursa is not a str caster, so guinsoo is not a good idea, you should rely on your teammates for disable and even in a 1v1 situation a heart will provide you with much higher DPS, so in the end you'll deal more damage compared to when having a guinsoo and 3 seconds extra for attacking, but much lower DPS, not to mention the Heart also gives you almost 1000 HP. Generally you should just get a blink dagger, if you want to chase and just hide somewhere close, activate overpower, wait till the cooldown is almost up, enrage, blink, 5 hits + earthshock, overpower, 5 more hits. This often is the end of the battle, but if the enemy survives you could chase and use the dagger, when it cooldowns for another earthshock and overpower combo.
Btw, RoB is a shitty item, it provides just 0.65 mana per second, so it would need 3 minutes and 20 seconds for a single cast of a 130 mana spell, it definitely does not allow you to spam anything, even just a sobi mask regenerates more mana on int heroes after the first few levels ^^
RoB isn't a shitty item, its the +6 damage you get in place of the 0.65 mps, you don't use it to spam you use it just because its there and if you have any sense of mana conservation and spell timing it is more than enough.
With that being said, if you need to spam, get a bottle or clarities.
SnY on clinks is pretty useless but for some hero that can be good, for me, dota is like bw... you have to adjust to what the other team hero is and what item they got good example BM with necrono vs invi hero for example, if they are no invi i would go arcane ring instead
aniway just my opinion, is you dont agree i dont care oo;
Paper, really nothing blatantly incorrect. To be honest there are so many builds right now and so many questions asked that I will try to answer them after I am done studying It will take me some time to answer everything.
Anyway, I already posted my thoughts on Gorgon. 1 mana point offers 2 hp, plus that it regenerates a shitload faster, so instead of bracers I get null's. Another thing RPF, I will NEVER start with 4 tangos, at max i'll buy a bottle that heals for 400hp and a lot faster than tangos.
It really depends on what type of game you are playing, public, dota league or a clanwar. I get totally different items for everything. In games with random people I always play to make myself awesome and not rely on anyone else whereas in clan wars I might actually try to play for the team.
As for razor I play him pretty weak, meaning I expect my opponents to suck. if you get him at AR I buy boots+circlet+2 mana potions and go CL/move/heal thing max first with ulti at lvl6 of course. then I get maelstrom as my first item, then see how it goes. If I need hp I get 2/3 bracers else I just go bot/mjollner/Hot/Buriza;/
as for sniper I do somewhat the same. Sniper farming is so easy if you know how to last hit and have no delay. I do get a ror for him though. I start with ror then demon edge - boots - mkb - bracers or bot same story as razor. after mkb I probably get HOT if I didnt buy 3 bracers or butterfly. Depends again on how my opponents are playing, whether they aim me etc. Skadi+manta is also fun, but not really easy to play.
Note these builds won't work in Clanwars but then again, nobody plays these two in clanwars so fuck it.
and RPF BKB active makes you unable to get hit by spells, just like the ultimate avatar of naix. so people can throw stuns at you(normal stun like basher does work though)
The reason I get MKB on sniper is because he needs dmg+speed and mkb is rather cheap. You are right that mkb wastes a bit of headshot but point is it also adds another mini stun period, if you have sufficient attack speed that will become so godly. Another reason I get it fast is because playing sniper allows me to. meaning i can farm so easily and nobody can do a thing about it. The other options like Desolater, they dont add attack speed which i think is very important and it also takes away the option of getting another orb effect item later. butterfly is really expensive and i like to get that later because it doesnt really add massive dmg like mkb, radiance? lol. opposed to paper I do think S&Y is awesome and it's something I make on sniper sometimes. stun+sange =rape.;D Hmm now that I think about it, sniper has many options and it doesn't really matter
edit: just played a game with sniper anddddddd maybe mkb first item isnt THAT good indeed. I think ill go mjolner from now on:D
I think you're just too stuck up on items rpf, my advice now is just play the damn game and get the items that you feel like getting...
For example some of your sentences are like ' Yeah well I don't like to use x spell unless hero comes close ' or ' yeah i don't like that item with this item so no '
hmm might be a solid advice, but there is nothing wrong with playing and trying to become better by asking other people what to do Eventually you develop a feeling for the game. I have never watched a single replay of dota as opposed to brain who has watched countless and I still rape his ass The most important things are definitely, last hitting very fast, understanding where people walk for hunt, understanding where people are from the directions they went last you saw them at minimap, having a good feeling for timing(when to go back etc) and in team battles knowing who to aim and disable. Those things you will only learn by playing playing and playing some more. But dont play mindlessly if you want to improve, always think;)
On July 16 2007 05:57 Judicator wrote: RoB isn't a shitty item, its the +6 damage you get in place of the 0.65 mps, you don't use it to spam you use it just because its there and if you have any sense of mana conservation and spell timing it is more than enough.
With that being said, if you need to spam, get a bottle or clarities.
Nulls/bracers also provide 6 damage, but give you 78/39 mana and extra 57/114 hp + some regen, which is quite better than just a low mana regen and some armor(which is not effective early game when you have low hp and does not help vs spells at all). RoB does help your lane partner, but still the bonuses are rather miserable
On July 16 2007 05:57 Judicator wrote: RoB isn't a shitty item, its the +6 damage you get in place of the 0.65 mps, you don't use it to spam you use it just because its there and if you have any sense of mana conservation and spell timing it is more than enough.
With that being said, if you need to spam, get a bottle or clarities.
Nulls/bracers also provide 6 damage, but give you 78/39 mana and extra 57/114 hp + some regen, which is quite better than just a low mana regen and some armor(which is not effective early game when you have low hp and does not help vs spells at all). RoB does help your lane partner, but still the bonuses are rather miserable
Except 0.65 regen is still faster than what most non-int heroes can muster at the early game, obviously 1.20 combined regen that early for a dual lane can be situationally better depending on who you have.
Its not a great starting item, but not that bad either.
BKB stops some Bashes as some have a spell trigger with divine damage, nothing stops Doom short of a Linkens (Not Repel either).
RPF my advice to you is to read through the list of spells as it will determine what items you get, IE going Hood against Silencer.
Second thing to consider the stats vs. damage vs. utility; stat items (SnY, Skadi) typically don't give you great damage unless you have good growth in your primary stat, same applies to Skadi, to me these items are middle of the road items, giving a balance between the two; damage items (Stygian, Radiance, MKB, Buriza) give you lots of damage but can make you a glass bitch if you get chained stunned and ff-ed; utility items various stuff that typically make you more helpful in a team fight.
A few items you should know/learn how to use is Necrobook, Meka (use it fairly early in a fight not when everyones almost dead, as in try to get the most out of the heal and most out of its armor bonus), and Euls/Sheepstick/Diffusal as in actually use the damn thing.
On July 15 2007 14:03 LastWish wrote: What is all this branch thing? It really is a stupid way to go, even if you want to go meka later. Commonly first items are tangos and mana potions. How many? It depends.. usually 2x tango, and potions up to your active spell. For example I usually get 4 potions with bounty hunter. Vengeful spirit can go for many manas too and spam bolts.
Now next item can be a empty bottle for some heroes, for example : vengeful spirit, chaos knight, spectre, sven could too... heroes that require mana for spells early and they aren't int + arcane would be a waste for them. Nerubian assasin, Tiny go for arcane.
I'm never sure what to buy for omni knight in the beginning, and his skill choices always differ such a omni hero.
Tormented soul build : - 2x Tango, 3x mana - boots or energy booster - arcane ring - 2x bracer if needed(usually is) - ring of regeneration into meka - void stone in the meantime, if you're doing well BoT instead(can be even before meka) - HoT and Assault - ?Skadi Skill choice for me : lightning(for great range abuse, damage and 5 second cooldown), explosions(towers, killing creeps/heroes)
Spectre build : - tangos, potions(aren't that necessary) - empty bottle - power threads - bracers if needed or stout shield - mask of madness if you are doing fine - +10 armor to be tough or more hp - damage item ... Skill choice : Dagger and Desolate
A BIG ROFL FOR LESHRECH BUILD! A EVEN BIGGER ROFLLMAO FOR SPECTRE BUILD O.o!!!!!!!
On July 16 2007 05:57 Judicator wrote: RoB isn't a shitty item, its the +6 damage you get in place of the 0.65 mps, you don't use it to spam you use it just because its there and if you have any sense of mana conservation and spell timing it is more than enough.
With that being said, if you need to spam, get a bottle or clarities.
Nulls/bracers also provide 6 damage, but give you 78/39 mana and extra 57/114 hp + some regen, which is quite better than just a low mana regen and some armor(which is not effective early game when you have low hp and does not help vs spells at all). RoB does help your lane partner, but still the bonuses are rather miserable
Except 0.65 regen is still faster than what most non-int heroes can muster at the early game, obviously 1.20 combined regen that early for a dual lane can be situationally better depending on who you have.
Its not a great starting item, but not that bad either.
BKB stops some Bashes as some have a spell trigger with divine damage, nothing stops Doom short of a Linkens (Not Repel either).
RPF my advice to you is to read through the list of spells as it will determine what items you get, IE going Hood against Silencer.
Second thing to consider the stats vs. damage vs. utility; stat items (SnY, Skadi) typically don't give you great damage unless you have good growth in your primary stat, same applies to Skadi, to me these items are middle of the road items, giving a balance between the two; damage items (Stygian, Radiance, MKB, Buriza) give you lots of damage but can make you a glass bitch if you get chained stunned and ff-ed; utility items various stuff that typically make you more helpful in a team fight.
A few items you should know/learn how to use is Necrobook, Meka (use it fairly early in a fight not when everyones almost dead, as in try to get the most out of the heal and most out of its armor bonus), and Euls/Sheepstick/Diffusal as in actually use the damn thing.
The extra maximum mana a null provides(which can be used immediately) is worth 2 minutes of RoB's regen and it also provides 0.24 mana regen that is increased by % increasing items
BKB stops only ranged hero bashes, melee ones go trough everytime, they are just the default bash from the game, they are not triggered(the SB greater bash is triggered ofc, since it's obviously something else). Doom is reduced by spell resistance, so the best counter is getting a hood for a 30% damage decrease.
Hood against Silencer is useless, since his glaive's damage is not reduced by magic resistance, what will help you is hp increase and skills that negate/evade damage/attacks.
On July 15 2007 14:03 LastWish wrote: What is all this branch thing? It really is a stupid way to go, even if you want to go meka later. Commonly first items are tangos and mana potions. How many? It depends.. usually 2x tango, and potions up to your active spell. For example I usually get 4 potions with bounty hunter. Vengeful spirit can go for many manas too and spam bolts.
Now next item can be a empty bottle for some heroes, for example : vengeful spirit, chaos knight, spectre, sven could too... heroes that require mana for spells early and they aren't int + arcane would be a waste for them. Nerubian assasin, Tiny go for arcane.
I'm never sure what to buy for omni knight in the beginning, and his skill choices always differ such a omni hero.
Tormented soul build : - 2x Tango, 3x mana - boots or energy booster - arcane ring - 2x bracer if needed(usually is) - ring of regeneration into meka - void stone in the meantime, if you're doing well BoT instead(can be even before meka) - HoT and Assault - ?Skadi Skill choice for me : lightning(for great range abuse, damage and 5 second cooldown), explosions(towers, killing creeps/heroes)
Spectre build : - tangos, potions(aren't that necessary) - empty bottle - power threads - bracers if needed or stout shield - mask of madness if you are doing fine - +10 armor to be tough or more hp - damage item ... Skill choice : Dagger and Desolate
A BIG ROFL FOR LESHRECH BUILD! A EVEN BIGGER ROFLLMAO FOR SPECTRE BUILD O.o!!!!!!!
Really scary. I didn't know anyone would do that...
i was just playing a non important game to get my mind of studying, cant say i actually tried, but they sucked and all you wanted was a build;) besides you can see how to deny a little as far as im doing that
we were playing a funwar with a combo we usually dont use alot problem is that i moved to my parents place 3 weeks ago, didnt play any dota for 2 weeks PLUS the mouse of my dad sucks sooooooooooo hardcore
every1 who watches the replay will see why i was pissed at that crap mouse after about 2 min and 15 seconds, with my mouse i would have gotten FB
still, i got eventually used to it and played a nice funwar with pugna, our opponents were doing pretty good, was a fun game overall, even tho only 3 out of us 5 are from our best lineup
just to show how much a spectre rapes if scourge gets into lategame, even if the spectre gets owned by a trilane early game and takes for fucking ever to farm radiance
RPF, even if u dont wanna learn pugna or spectre i still recommend to dl and watch the games cause they will give you a basic idea of how a team with ventrillo functions (buying wards, ganking etc)
p.s.: funwars, we didnt take them very serious, usually we buy more wards and concentrate more
im down for dota over hamachi, just give us a specific date and time, it'll be easier to get a match going that way because we don't seem to have a really big active dota population at tl
Hm, Strafe, I got a question about Lich. I started off going dual bracers, like always, then built straight into a soul booster so I could go scepter, but I got a lot of shit from another teammate because I went bracers before going soul booster, so my question is this: if you intend to go scepter eventually, should you go soul booster first or bracers/talismans?
I mean, the bracers regen is .36hp/.24mp /sec., right? The regen on the soul booster is better, but more expensive (3300 vs. 1020), and then you lose that regen when you get the scepter, as straight +hp/mp isn't the same as +str/int.
I think I did the right thing. I have a large enough health pool to stay alive during the back and forth harass from other players, and it boosted my mana pool enough, too.
I wish I'd saved that replay. The commentary was hysterical. The kid playing pugna kept running into me and other nukers, and he'd just die in 2 sec. and throw a tantrum.
hmmmm, well with lich I don't get the point of making bracers if you are going aghanim anyway. I make bracers to get more HP and survive, when you are making aghanim a point booster is a whole lot better for that. In general I think of bracers as a waste of money and a necessary evil so I try not to make them whenever I can.
Dunno exactly for lich items anymore, I used to go mekansm and aghanim and bot and then w/e but thats not really good for team support:O
And I'd still like to see you play Lich. I know what you mean about bracers being an expensive waste, but they are necessary at times. I can see why going straight to soul booster/scepter could be better than going bracers, but I guess each has it's good and bad sides.
Bracers net you a good amount of overall stats, mana, health, and regen. The boost adds a noticeable amount more mana, and has significantly better regen. The scepter itself loses the regen, but nets a higher total health and mana.
well brain you are just as bad as the players i play against so I dont understand what you are complaining about. the only difference is taht you have watched 5000 replays so maybe make some better items at times, not sure;o i can play just fine with a little delay, im not bitching about 70ms
Well, for Juggz, you should rush BoTs and Bracers. BoTs help you chase with fury, but you need life from Bracers. You can get some other damage item after that.
Sniper can be played in many ways, you can go for large mana in order to spam Assasinate, a push build with Scattershot, or try to carry by going for MKB. I actually just played a game yesterday as Sniper in a pub, and went 20-2, even though it was essentailly 3v5. MKB, Heart, Assault Cuirass, BoTs, Aegis and Bracer, with Skadi on chicken at the end of the game.
I would probably just go damage with Drow, Butterfly or something. In most cases, you're only there for the slow and the silence, until you've farmed up a nice DPS item.
I probably wouldn't get Bracers with Lich, since a Point Booster gives both, and is much more useful late game when it's made into scepter. Getting two bracers delays you about 1 booster, but it does give good bonuses early on.
On July 17 2007 09:51 {ToT}Strafe wrote: well brain you are just as bad as the players i play against so I dont understand what you are complaining about. the only difference is taht you have watched 5000 replays so maybe make some better items at times, not sure;o i can play just fine with a little delay, im not bitching about 70ms
you should start playing hamachi and listchecker
after you have done that for some weeks, you will complain about bnet too !
Can't imagine Scepter being better than Refresher on Lich; I guess I would go Meka/Point Booster to Void and see what I need to do for the team from there; Void gives me pretty much every option bar Book.
Speaking of items, check out this noobish stuff I got I didn't plan to die this game but my team left me all alone on several occasions and I couldn't handle 1v5 before dagger.
By the way, HOW THE FUCK DO YOU COUNTER BLOODSEEKER?
It's seriously the most cowardly hero in the game. You can't run from him, as if you do, you die, and if you can somehow stare him down, he still kills you.
Or does he just counter Axe?
Edit: If I have a hero I intend to go heart or scepter on, like axe (eventually I go heart after vanguard/dagger) or lich, should I not get bracers and put that gold towards a vitality booster? Or should I still get some stat items earlier on?
And what starting items do you guys go with? Do you have one buy plan or does it depend on your hero's main stat, or does it completely depend on the hero?
Man, you have to stop trying to play the game like it's a single player game. You're playing against human beings who have different styles of play, especially in game like DotA with millions of unique matchups. Go with the flow. Just try thinking for yourself. If you're a fragile melee hero against dual nukers, you might want double RoR or if you're laning against some weak shitling like Naix (which already says something about the game -_-) you can get away by having minimum starting items and farming something big.
There are heroes that are stronger the lower the skill level of the game, like Bloodseeker, Night Stalker, Pudge... mostly because nobody buys wards and everyone is self-centered as opposed to applying pressure on the other team and lacking overall teamwork, but they are all easily counterable.
Seeker can't do shit before he gets radiance or dagon. As someone already mentioned, you can counter seeker with TP assuming he's trying to gank you alone. But that's not the only way. Depending on your hero, you can just not run and stun/slow with good timing so by the time rupture wears out, he won't have the speed bonus to be able to kill you.
Anyway, to answer your question more directly:
If I random, I buy a chicken and often RoR (I say often since it changes depending on hero, like Terrorblade is better off with basilius) and go to my lane to see who I'm laning against then buy items accordingly.
If pick or repick, chicken --> 1 set of tangos or none and do the same, buy accordingly
There are heroes that will have set builds that do decently vs anything, like if you're going hood anti-mage, in which case I go 2 RoR --> hands of midas --> hood.
Depends what BS does, if he bloodrages you, then you can fight him and probably win. If he bloodrages himself, you can use your spells to escape. Axe should pretty much own bloodseeker...
Starting Items are usually the same, RoR, circlet, branches, clarities, tangoes, gauntlets, mantles, and slippers. However, it does depend on what you plan to do in the lane and later in the game. If you plan to go Mek or Hood, you might want to start off with RoR + 2 Branches. If you're gonna harass a lot with your spells, you might want more clarities. It doesn't really stay the same every game. However, if you don't really know what to get, RoR + 2 Branches is a good option, along with pretty much any combination of Branches, circlets and Tangoes. Chicken depends on your team, 1 chicken is enough for the entire team, no point in wasting your early gold.
You can get another Chicken if you're a soloing hero and you really need it (Silencer and Viper come to mind) because you need your stuff more than other people do; it won't be good if you really need a Flask or something and your Chicken is halfway on the other side of the map :-/
I disagree with Equinox...if you really need a Flask, you're already dead, and the walk from chicken won't save you. It only brings it to refill, and with good communication, there shouldn't be a problem.
On July 18 2007 13:28 paper wrote: blood rage cancels TP btw :s
just fight him esp if he you have an ally nearby
...since when? Maybe you're getting confused since bloodrage does cancel furion's teleport. The only skill that can silence active items is doom afaik.
Well, sometimes you are bound to die and there is nothing you can do about it. He has bonus speed and has vision of you. No way to juke him or outrun him.
On July 18 2007 20:36 Equinox_kr wrote: You can get another Chicken if you're a soloing hero and you really need it (Silencer and Viper come to mind) because you need your stuff more than other people do; it won't be good if you really need a Flask or something and your Chicken is halfway on the other side of the map :-/
wtff, 2 chickens? no thanks
the reason being, if you're a competent solo, you won't need your own chicken. you're trying to stay in lane as long as you can to farm, you won't be making any risky/stupid moves to get your health so low
I'm no pro, but these are just a few of my thoughts on the last few pages. Note, this is only for AP, because EM is for noobs who can't last hit.
SnY is a very poor item overall. It's made for people who don't know where the secret shop is. For 5100, you get +16 damage, +16 str, +16 agi, +10% ms, +10% ias, and 10% maim. Low damage output (32 damage, and 16% ias) for agi heroes, low strength gain (300 health, and about .5 hp/sec) for tankers, a good slow (35% for 6 seconds, if it procs at 10%), and good boost to speed. For 300 more gold you can buy MKB, for 400 more gold you can get Heart, for 300 more gold you can buy a Radiance and farm another SnY in a couple minutes, or for 75 more gold you can buy Guinsoo's. If you want movement speed, save the 2200 in recpes costs and buy a Boots of Travel. And for whoever said SnY on Clinkz, you are retarded since you don't even get the maim with your arrows, and you have ms from your Wind Walk. Skadi is about 2000 more, gives more hp, more mana, more ias, slightly less damage, and has a slow that always procs, and can be stacked with orbs for ranged heroes.
Branches are one of the best starting items. It is one of the most cost-efficient items in the game. If I had infinite item slots, almost all of them would be branches, like 95%. Getting +3 stats early on is pretty big, it increases everything except your movespeed. For the price of 1425, you can get +25 to all stats, which is the same as Skadi without the slow. Combine it with Tangos or RoR as your regeneration item. Clarities shouldn't be used too often, since it increases harassment with spells, but doesn't help you last hit or deny. With branches, you deal more damage to everything, and increase your life. I usually start pub games with something like Circlet, Branch, and 3 sets of tangos. If theres a chicken on my team, I get more branches and less tangos.
Ring of Basilius is a good item to start off with. +6 damge early on increases your damage by 10%. +3 armor is 15% physical damge reduction that early on. On top of that you gain premanent mana regeneration. Of course, it doesn't help out everyone, but its not as bad as other people might think. Getting Nulls as your first item isn't the smartest thing I've heard today, it doesnt give as much gain compared to not buying the recipe and buying 2 branches instead.
Radiance is not purely a damage item. If you wanted damage then MKB is about the same price. It doesn't increase damge from Sacred Relic, it only grants immolation. However, it is one of the best items, since it makes you farm like a god. It gives some damage, and huge farming capabilities for the rest of the game, but if its already late game its better to get another tier 4 damage item.
BoTs should almost always be gotten over Treads. The teleportation will help you live, push, defend, gank more then the small gain in IAS. It also gives more MS which is always good.
Don't let the heroes primary attribute box you in on what build to go. Tiny and Earthshaker are spellcasters as str heroes. Death prophet and Pugna are build like a tank, not a spellcaster. Antimage and Ursa are tanks. I know people will probably argue these points...
Pretty much Paper is right in most cases, and Lastwish knows nothing. As proof I'll breakdown his post:
Arcane ring is not used to fill out random mana pools. Venge, Sven, Spectre, Chaos Knight, NA, and Tiny never get Arcane. Only ones that might get it are Zeus and Priestess. If you just buy branches early on, you would increase mana regeneration and mana pool, instead of having 10 clarities or whatever you do.
Leshrac does not go Arcane. Leshrac has no life. Leshrac needs his ult. Your build doesn't help those until later. Go early blink, maybe Vanguard, then Soul Booster to BoTs to Aghanim's Scepter. Your Void stone does nothing since it is gotten so late, and isn't made into anything. No assault Cuirass, you won't get there, but Heart is always good. Let someone else get Mek. Even your skill build is wrong. Diabolic Edict does nothing for you early on, whereas Lightning Storm and Split Earth help you gank, dominate lanes, and farm. Edict is mainly used to rape towers. Not getting Split Earth is bypassing a his only stun.
Spectre does not go treads. Spectre does not go MoM. Spectre is usually a carry hero, that goes Radiance to Heart to another damage item, and ganks with his ult+dagger. His ult does huge damage in team battles when you've farmed enough. BoTs is much better than treads on him. Don't get stout shield if you're not building anything with it. Unless I mixed up his abilities, Desolate is the ability that is considered completely and utterly worthless. If you don't get dispersion, you just skipped one of the best skills in the entire game. Once, a Riki comes to gank my friend as Spectre. Riki hits, hits, hits and runs the hell away since he's going to die. Funny thing is Spectre never even turned around to hit him. Riki pretty much owned himself. He later got stunned and dies. Most likely, you need stats early on instead of dispersion, or else it won't even trigger before you die.
That was a very long post from a very tired man. A few final notes. Diffusal is for Purge, Manta is for illusions. The manaburn is just a huge side bonus. And if you learn anything from this post: SnY sucks.
Contact me at: Aim: Scrtof Email: Chaoticvoid@gmail.com WC3: keviniswh0re
On July 18 2007 13:28 paper wrote: blood rage cancels TP btw :s
just fight him esp if he you have an ally nearby
...since when? Maybe you're getting confused since bloodrage does cancel furion's teleport. The only skill that can silence active items is doom afaik.
Well, sometimes you are bound to die and there is nothing you can do about it. He has bonus speed and has vision of you. No way to juke him or outrun him.
orly
i just recall someone's teleport getting cancelled
Sorry but if you play it just from replays and stuff you're never going to understand it, and my lesharc is one of the best. This hero doesn't need aghanims, because his ulti is his minor skill till you get this in your head your not going anywhere. But ok play vs me and i'll show you. Sure split earth is good, but you'll hardly get to target any hero because it has like 1.5 casting time. But scorpion and split earth may work just fine, i'm solo mid leshrac and you'll taste my vengeance. Same goes for spectre, desolate is one of the best skill if hero come far enough to do it. You'll never get radiance in real game, but those items i've said are not that hard to get.
So what do you guys think about stats vs. regen early game?
For a long time I'd go dual bracer regardless of what hero I had, but I found I went through tangos really fast. Then I played the latest AI map, and frankly, their buy plan off the start is actually really good. It's just RoR/tangos/work toward 1+ bracer/talisman depending.
It's really easy to stay in a lane, as the RoR negates the damage you take from creeps in between hits, and most of the damage from harass spells (chain lightning, etc.) is negated by the regen by the time you're hit with it again, and if you get pushed aggressively, popping a tango increases your regen to 9hp/sec.
The stats really only make it harder to burst you down. :/
Man, I've just started the thing, randomed the Harbringer, and I'm really curious why noone has yet discussed this somewhat interesting hero. With some quick leveling in a bot game I quickly brought his orb damage to like 300 and ulti damage vs most heroes to something like 1000+. And he really plays unique and requires somewhat unorthodox items.
I don't know what games you're playing, but if you can't farm Radiance in an AP, XL, or LM game, you must suck. Standard Radiance is 30 minutes, but there has been 18 minute or earlier Radiances. I played a game last night, and Silencer had Guinsoo's, Heart, BoTs, Eaglehorn, Midas, in a 60 minute game. Two peopl had Skadi, another person had Battlefury and Assault Cuirass. Those cost more than a Radiance.
Leshrac's ult is not his minor skill. Lightning storm does 265. Diabolic Edict does 50 to a random target for 8 seconds. Unless you don't plan to go to a team battle, Edict won't do much damage to their team. Storm won't do much damage, and if you don't get Split Earth, which is 290 damage, then you won't do damage period. His ult at level 4 does 177, effectively 133 damage a second, for 40 mana a second, hits invis and fog of war, and doesn't stop when your stunned. I don't blame you if you can't aim Split Earth, since it's one of the hardest stuns to aim, but then you probably think Lina shouldn't get LSA, and Vol'Jin shouldn't get maledict. And you know Epicenter takes 2 seconds of casting time right? Should I not get that then?
Leshrac also isn't the optimal solo hero, he has less then 500 life. Even with something like 5 branches and a Circlet, you don't break 600 life. At level 7 with 4 points in Stats, you have 910 life. 4 nukes will kill you. That might seem like a lot, but when Zeus comes up to you he does 65 + 350 + 65 + 210 = 690 or 518 effective damage, putting you at less than 400. Add on Vengeful's Stun and you have 150 life, about 3 normal hits in 2 seconds.
Desolate doesn't help you in team battles, obviously. It doesn't help you gank much either. It's 45 damage at level 4 per hit. If you get 5 hits in, its as good as a nuke. You're not going to get in 5 hits when it matters. If they're alone, chances are you can already kill them, or you can't kill them anyways. Stats will give you 150 life, which is about 3 hits or half a nuke.
I didn't come to this forum just to argue pointlessly with one person. The other people can test out the builds themselves and reach their own conclusions. If you want to play me, get a team and contact me. If you really want to prove your point, then send me a good quality replay, or show me in a real game.
Going all regen early on will help you stay in a lane, but its a little harder to farm, harass, and kill the enemy. Pretty much you get to stay there and do less.
Finally, are you really being serious when you say that Radiance is unattainable?
On July 19 2007 00:00 LastWish wrote: terr13 you are just so stupid... God help you.
Sorry but if you play it just from replays and stuff you're never going to understand it, and my lesharc is one of the best. This hero doesn't need aghanims, because his ulti is his minor skill till you get this in your head your not going anywhere. But ok play vs me and i'll show you. Sure split earth is good, but you'll hardly get to target any hero because it has like 1.5 casting time. But scorpion and split earth may work just fine, i'm solo mid leshrac and you'll taste my vengeance. Same goes for spectre, desolate is one of the best skill if hero come far enough to do it. You'll never get radiance in real game, but those items i've said are not that hard to get.
1. his ulti is his minor skill 2. you'll hardly get to target any hero because it has like 1.5 casting time 3. desolate is one of the best skill if hero come far enough to do it 4. You'll never get radiance in real game
lmao?
theres no point in getting an assault for a spellcaster his ulti is what makes him --> aghanim's, and agh's provides what the arcane ring and HoT do for you =_=
it's not that hard to target when you predict their movements, or have someone disable for you and edict is just a shitty version of his ultimate
disperse and dagger > desolate easy for totally obvious reasons
and saying you'll "never get radiance" whereas item x is "not that hard to get" is just ridiculously stupid
I played Harbringer last time, there's two main ways to play him. Arcane + Essence or Astral + Eclipse, although they're only slightly different. Getting two Mysic Staffs and BoTs and running around with 1800 mana pool and over 100 intelligence is fun.
I'm having trouble understanding what to buy at the start. Every game seems to give me different amounts of gold, so maybe someone can explain the gold system?
My standard buy plan used to be:
tangos/bracer mats boots/bracers (2) HoT if str Bfly if agi Guin if int
Which I would modify based on the hero I had (van on axe, bfury on magna or sven, mjoll on razor, mkb on sniper, etc.).
But now I notice a lot of people don't get stat items at the start. Then some do. I have no idea when to get regen, when to get stats, when to get a little of both, and so on.
$%&$%^&#$
I'm confused again. Then again it's 5 AM and Winnie the Pooh could confuse me.
BUY ANYYYYYYYYYYYYYTHING! just make sure to use it with style 8)
like fuck, you could get a desolator on luna and start raping with style it DOESN'T MATTER!
WWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!
(rpf, all i can say is to just play more games and see what works out for you most effectively. i could write a manual on how to ride a bike, but, shit, it's easier just to ride it, yeah? you have a lot of knowledge presented within this thread, just apply it as you play and it should all come to you. sometimes its all a matter of preference)
How can I make you see the real things in Dota are free?
Branches are stupid. Lesharc's Lightning storm can be cast on creeps in front and still hit heroes behind without any chance of retaliation. Lighning storm has a cooldown of 5 seconds. Diabolic erdict is lesharcs most powerful skill, does most damage, and if the target is solo it is doomed. Arcane ring is probably the best item for lesharc early, does help even more if you have a lane partner. Aghanims is as expensive as tarrasque, little more even, and HP is much better for lesharc since his ulti won't improve that much. If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank. If you have a partner stun may be the better choce though.
I don't really know how desolate works, but it isn't pure +45 damage, it probably ignores armor or something because it kills heroes fast enough no matter what their items are. Disperse is only 16% and isn't that good early, deslolate is on ilusions too, but I don't say your skillchoice is bad it's just different. Radiance vs? MoM 1950, 2 items pretty easy to get. I said armor that means 1400 for +10 armor to be tougher. 2 bracers ~1000. BoT for Spectre is a waste of money, this hero creeps pretty bad and you should rather get threads for attack speed. You have haunt to teleport on heroes. MoM gives you movement speed essential to catch heroes daggered and running away.
diabolic edict is totally useless early-game, especially if you're soloing with that build of yours. why? leshrac has shitty hp = why the fuck would you run near the enemy. take the stun for edict because if the opportunity arises, stun > edict
If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank. that's true for anyone, really, and getting that HP/armor status instead of improving his ult's mad dps (while getting a significant hp boost) through agh's is a waste for leshrac
disperse is ridiculously good and itll proc more than the number of times you'll ever be alone with an enemy hero MoM is just asking to be raped
On July 19 2007 04:00 paper wrote: diabolic edict is totally useless early-game, especially if you're soloing with that build of yours. why? leshrac has shitty hp = why the fuck would you run near the enemy. take the stun for edict because if the opportunity arises, stun > edict
If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank. that's true for anyone, really, and getting that HP/armor status instead of improving his ult's mad dps (while getting a significant hp boost) through agh's is a waste for leshrac
disperse is ridiculously good and itll proc more than the number of times you'll ever be alone with an enemy hero MoM is just asking to be raped
1 Level of Stun, Lightning/Edict (Depending on your lane), then Stats. I dont max out Stun till later where it actually matters, but in your lane that extra damage isn't worth the extra mana cost.
And Agh is not a waste on Lesh if you can farm it in a respectable amount of time, SB helps Lesh in every regard.
You can creep whole lane on using erdict+storm = 300 mana(you can't do that with stun+lightning), while using ulti your mana cost is higher, but you aren't depending on cooldown. Aghanims vs Tarrasque, Tarrasque double HP. Better ulti doesn't help that much, extra mana is handy but mana regen is low from aghanim.
The gold at start is 3500 split between the players in the team. You also spend gold, when picking or repicking a hero, the exact cost depends on the mode.
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
What's so annoying about DotA discussions is the lack of open-mindedness in such a young game that is going through constant development and experimentation in many aspects. If the 'pros' haven't done it, then it's obviously newb. Conversely, if the pros have done it, it's textbook material. This often ends up doing more bad than good. It's quite ironic how DotA players are less creative than the BW community in a game that has more possibilities.
SnY does not outright suck. That's just faggot propaganda by bandwagoning forum retards who talk more than they play. It might be overused but it definitely has its pros. So what if it gives moderate amounts of everything. Some heroes need just that.
Personally, I go lightning and edict on leshrac. Edict is the most damaging skill that can be used both defensively and offensively, just like lunar eclipse. Arguing that leshrac is too fragile to ever get near opponents is a faulty argument that can be applied to just about everyone. It's completely situationtional and you're assuming that the lane stays secluded the entire time. What about ganks?
As for item builds, I go ror --> 2 bracers --> boots of travel --> aghanim --> (variable, often blink dagger)
You don't really need (nor can you afford it) heavy mana regen early on since your mana is almost entirely directed vs players and NOT in creeping.
When it comes to spectre, I have to admit I'm not very informed about her (it's a damn female, not it or he, you guys must be both blind and deaf). I'd have to agree it's all about dagger/dispersion early game. She's an incompetent bitch after all. Hope your teammates can babysit you while you rush to radiance.
rpf, for fuck's sake, start thinking for yourself You might actually benefit from learning first experience what works best instead of getting fed 'build orders.'
It's not like I'm not trying things myself. I've experimented with some things myself, but I just wanted feedback from others is all.
I watch what others do, and I try to see why they do it. I look at my own abilities, and try to figure out if I'm going to need more stats, regen, IAS, IMS, etc.
I just like to see what others think and do.
I know it seems like I'm basically going, "TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT DO," but I'm really not.
But it does seem like an RoR at the beginning is a great idea, as regen is pretty important, I've found, to staying in a lane.
For a while I tried going dual bracers (I'd buy circlets/tangos and then go boots/finish bracers later), but all that did was buy me another minute while I absorbed another nuke before I'd have to make a fountain run.
After trying going regen, I can see why RoR is a good idea. Plus, if you intend to go mek, or if you need to go hood, you can do it.
By the way, is it just me, or does regen really suck late game unless you have a lot?
I played a game earlier where I had hood, linken's, and a heart. My regen was nuts, and so it was good, but I realized I've never had it that high before, and I've always noticed how shitty my regen was with just a bfury or whatever.
Bless you Heen... at last someone openminded. I think s&y is a good item, gives Hp attack speed and briliant movement speed bonus. Maim is a handy orb effect. Too bad many heroes that would benefit from it already have a orb effect - like magina, ursa or broodmother.
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
Never forget that more than often majority is wrong only because people are easy to influence.
Just a RoR should last you the whole game for most heroes.
4 hp/sec is a generous amount. It's enough for even the most damage soaking str heroes. I think pudge is the ONLY hero who I get more than 4 hp/sec regen on.
Regen does 'suck' late game since its purpose is to let you stay in the field. Late game it's rare that regen makes a difference in survivability.
Anyway, you will need some form of regen or else smart opponents will take advantage of you. A RoR is a good deal that helps you stay in lane. You will get 187 back when you sell it so it's not that big of an investment at all. I sometimes carry emergency tangos depending on -ma.
rpf if you are in a solo lane regen is imperitive to have, only 1 RoR will do, but usually if i solo, reguardless if i'm not a str hero, i'll get 2 circlets, 2 gloves of str, and then 4 charges of tangos, that usually lasts me long enough to do anything ;P
Btw, regen is only good usually for early to mid game because when you get into late mid game you usually have treads or something that can get you faster to the fountain and back than using regen, also you need the space later for items depending on who you are.
On the SnY subject, i do think that it's one of those " staple items" people think is good for their hero when it's even better to save another 1200 to get butterfly or satanic, it's really only good on heroes who benefit from both of the parts of the item, one of them being Spirit Breaker.
SnY isn't a great item. It's not a bad item. It's an easy to afford item. Each part is the +6 items are 450, the +10 items are 1000, the recipes are 600, and the SnY recipe is 1000. That's easy to afford. Saving for a 3400 eaglehorn isn't.
Is the item itself worth all of that gold? No. You can do better for the gold. But, some heroes really benefit from the IAS, IMS, maim, and so on.
The orb itself isn't something that will proc readily. It's only 10%, so unless you have good AS, you can't expect it to proc much.
Conclusion: decent health, decent IAS, useful IMS, modest damage, but don't buy it for the orb. I still strongly believe there are better items for just a little more money, but the SnY is still decent in its own right.
On July 19 2007 08:45 Dave[9] wrote: oh cmon, god fucking damn it Heen you type too fast ;(
o_O
I type pretty fast if I know exactly what to say but I usually have to stop and think if I write more than a paragraph >_<
I'm back home right now so I don't have my computer and that leaves downloading/watching movies and surfing the net as my only options during my free time
I may have been a little harsh on SnY, as it is quite good on some melee gankers like Spiritbreaker, but after watching a game where every person and their chicken had SnY, it is overused. The slow is good, but the biggest thing is the increase in MS, which is why it's good for melee gankers. The thing is, you have to compare it to other items, and it almost always loses to something else.
You can creep lanes with Lightning Storm + Edict. Lightning Storm won't hit invis units, or fog of war, whereas his ult does. Two seconds of his ult with Aghanim's is more than Lightning Storm. If you want to gank, Split Earth is better than Edict. The main thing Edict has is humongous damage to towers, but since it's random, you need to clear out everything beforehand. Aghanim's helps his ult a lot, not a little, a lot. You gain 500 mana and 30 intelligence, which is another 20 seconds or so of your ult, which is about 2700 effective damage. Obviously, you shouldn't be alive if it lasts that long, but if their entire team decides to target you, then you're team should be able to win
Split Earth is good. Chain stun it, gank with it, use it in team battles. If they waste time trying to dodge it in a team battle, your team should be able to win. Edict is a good spell, and can really hurt if you can catch them alone, but that's not that easy against competent opponents. Most of the time, where Edict would kill, Split Earth would also, whereas the stun from Split Earth can grant you more killing opportunities, that Edict wouldn't.
I don't recommend going dispersion or desolate early with Spectre. Get Stats instead. However, as the game progresses, Dispersion will offer a lot more than Desolate, even Stats does. Desolate does 15/25/35/45 damage through armor, at level 4, Stats give 8% ias, 130 hp, 8 damage, and 1 armor.
Regeneration doesn't really suck late game. You'll have enough life that they can't kill you quickly, and the longer they take to kill you the more life you have. Obviously, you can calculate it, ie I have 10 hp/sec and i expect to live for 10 seconds, which is 100 life. It also allows you to initate a fight, take hits, fall back, regen your life, and go back into the fray.
rpf, spending your money now doesn't mean its easier than saving it up. I think you just said it's hard to not buy items. In the end, the amount of gold is the same, and I usually don't buy that much until my first big item, I stay out in my lane or go ganking.
I'll admit that I'm not the most open-minded person about this game, I have tried different builds with some characters, but I usually just play the classic builds, or the really gay builds like permabash Troll or ministun Sniper. But SnY on Clinkz, and another person had 2 SnY's on Faceless Void. They don't stack.
EDIT: Branches don't suck. Really, they're very very good. If I hate 200 item slots, and limited gold, I'd buy 200 branches. Maybe 1 BoTs.
EDIT: Unless you don't plan to be there in team battles, Bots is a must. It helps you live, it allows you to defend, heal and push, or vice versa. His ult does have a cooldown, and BoTS helps you chase a lot more.
On July 19 2007 08:32 LastWish wrote: Bless you Heen... at last someone openminded. I think s&y is a good item, gives Hp attack speed and briliant movement speed bonus. Maim is a handy orb effect. Too bad many heroes that would benefit from it already have a orb effect - like magina, ursa or broodmother.
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
Never forget that more than often majority is wrong only because people are easy to influence.
Magina goes Vanguard -> Heart, usually. He's too fragile otherwise. Ursa masses health items (HoT); it's how he deals damage. Broodmother doesn't go SnY since Incapacitating Bite is already an orb effect. Maim would be nice...if it would proc more than 10% of the time.
On July 19 2007 00:00 LastWish wrote: terr13 you are just so stupid... God help you.
Sorry but if you play it just from replays and stuff you're never going to understand it, and my lesharc is one of the best. This hero doesn't need aghanims, because his ulti is his minor skill till you get this in your head your not going anywhere. But ok play vs me and i'll show you. Sure split earth is good, but you'll hardly get to target any hero because it has like 1.5 casting time. But scorpion and split earth may work just fine, i'm solo mid leshrac and you'll taste my vengeance. Same goes for spectre, desolate is one of the best skill if hero come far enough to do it. You'll never get radiance in real game, but those items i've said are not that hard to get.
Uhh, don't be stupid. You're saying don't get Split earth because you can't aim it? Don't use that as an excuse, learn to predict where they're going to end up, and target the spell there. If that were the case, don't get LSA for Lina, it's too hard to cast. Freezing Field for CM sucks because it's channeling, and they'll just run away. I'm not going to use Epi for Crix because I have to channel it for 2 seconds. However, there are ways around that. For CM, just Bite -> blink -> FF. Lina, the same; just predict where they're going to be. For Crix, channel the Epi, then blink in. You say Desolate "is one of the best skills if the hero come far enough to do it." In other words, one, they have to be stupid enough to gank you by themselves on your side of the map. Two, it's extremely situational. All they have to do is run back to their creeps, which will be coming the whole time, and Desolate is useless. Dispersion + stats is much more preferable, since the stats bonuses aren't situational, and Dispersion provides a nice ministun to interrupt some channeling spells, and also reflect damage back at them, allowing you to turn around and chase for the kill. Desolate just gives you a very situational damage bonus.
Lots of people get Radiance in a real game. Spectre is one of them. And don't throw crap around like "my Leshrac is one of the best." It's obviously not, unless we're retarded. Leshrac doesn't solo; as a fragile Int caster, you'll be getting ganked up your ass early game when you're playing against anybody competent, and you'll be unable to farm up all your lategame items due to your inability to stay in your lane.
MoM isn't gotten on fragile heroes like Leshrac. Taking 20% extra damage is not what you want when Crix decides to blink in with Epi.
Eh. SnY is usually regarded as "the worst expensive item." I mean, it costs 5100 or so for what?
So let's look this over. The stat gains are quite mediocre for the cost, the damage gain is almost negligible, as is the additional IAS. The only areas where it truly shines is the +10% MS, and the Maim, IF IT PROCS. And the chances of that are very low. Granted, SnY is useable on heroes like Spiritbreaker, and a few others who might benefit from the MS (Bloodseeker might come to mind). "Morphling can use it!" you might say. However, for an additional 400 gold he can get a HoT, which gives him +35 Str, 300 additional HP, and 11 hp/sec regen. The 300 extra HP is about 15.7 Str points worth of HP, and 11 hp/sec is pretty significant. Additionally, Morphling can just transfer any amount of Str he wants into Agi, so he'll benefit much more from a HoT than a SnY. So in general, SnY is a mediocre item; most heroes will benefit much more from getting any of the other tier 3/4 items. Other items give more for the amount of gold required to make them. Ah, yes, the affordability cost. SnY is gotten by many, simply for the reason that it's extremely easy (compared to saving for a 3.8k relic) to farm up the bits and pieces of Sange and Yasha. So what does SnY have going for it? The MS increase, crappy maim orb that never procs when you need it to, and it's easy to save up for. Once you get better at DoTA (not saying you suck rofl, I'm quite average myself) it becomes increasingly easier to farm up for the larger items such as Reaver, Relic, Eaglehorn, etc., which build up for items that give much more than SnY gives.
In comparison, let's see what Skadi, the most expensive item after DR itself, gives:
+25 Str +25 Agi +25 Int +200 HP +150 Mana 30% slow (3 second for melee, 2 seconds for ranged, also procs 100% of the time)
SnY is 159.375 gold/stat. Skadi is 99.296 gold/stat. Not only that, but you get additional HP/Mana, and a slow that procs 100% of the time. I'd take that over maim any day. Still need that MS boost? Just shell out 2050 more for a Yasha, and there you have it. Besides, it won't matter as much, since you'll be slowing your target the whole time. However, with SnY, you have to hope that the gods are shining on you that day, since 10% is pretty damn small when you think about it (90% that it WON'T proc, and your target will get away).
BoT > Treads for one primary reason: the teleport it provides. It allows you to TP to one lane, push it in, then quickly TP to another lane and continue pushing (It's why you get treads w/ Furion). 25 extra MS doesn't hurt, either. So what do treads give you? 35% IAS? Meh, BoTs will help you farm up so much faster, since you shouldn't be needing the increased IAS while farming, and that only comes into play when you're attempting to kill other heroes. You'll still need BoTs on Spectre, not only for the MS, but the TP is invaluable for ganking, defending, and pushing. Your ult WILL be on cooldown, so you'll need to be able to transport yourself from one side of the map to the other; you can't rely on your ult as your TP. You might thinkg that the 35% IAS will help you kill someone that you're attempting to kill. Not so. When Spectre chases, she'll be getting one hit at a time; they won't stand still to let her hit them. Therefore, BoTs would be more useful in this situation. And if they're not moving, they're usually sprouted/stunned/netted/frozen, so you'll have a teammate whooping on them at the same time. If they're still alive after that, dagger + chase will kill. Desolate is utter crap on Spectre. They'll rarely be in a situation where Desolate will make a difference, since an equivalent amount of stats will more than make up the difference overall. Also, Dispersion is an excellent skill, since it deals back damage dealt in an AoE radius, not just back to the target. With a HoT, you'll find that when Dispersion does procs multiple times, the enemy heroes will be hurting. Radiance is gotten on Spectre for the farming capabilities, +60 damage, and the Immolation also comes in handy when chasing.
Just to emphasize it. You don't get treads on Spectre "cuz she sucks at creeping." When you creep, you should be last hitting, anyways, so that shouldn't be an issue. Neutrals giving you a problem? Learn to creep pull, and it's just back to last hitting again.
On July 19 2007 07:52 Heen wrote: When it comes to spectre, I have to admit I'm not very informed about her (it's a damn female, not it or he, you guys must be both blind and deaf). I'd have to agree it's all about dagger/dispersion early game. She's an incompetent bitch after all. Hope your teammates can babysit you while you rush to radiance.
Of course. Spectre doesn't solo; but she does make an excellent lane mate. Dagger does moderate damage, and provides an 18% slow at level 4, which should be enough to chase and kill at around level 7-8. Survivability in the lane is not a huge problem if you go dagger/stats; it gives you a decent amount of HP to help counterbalance the fact that you're a melee hero. Stats over Dispersion early, since you won't have the HP to take the hist necessary to set it off. Dispersion is taken a bit later when you acutally have the life to take hits and let Dispersion proc.
Regen sucks late game? Not when you have 30-40 hp/sec regen. That can make the difference between barely escaping and dying outright.
For all of you who think Branches are garbage, I'll break it down for you. Let's compare it to all of the other basic starting items. Hell, let's compare it to all items that just give noticeable stats.
Branch - 19 gold per stat Circlet - 30.83 Gaunlet/Slipper/Mantle - 50 Wraith Band - 38.3 (The reason Morphling goes Wraiths over Bracers) Bracer/Null - 42.5 Belt of Giant Strength/Boots of Elvenskin/Robe of the Magi - 75 Ogre Axe/Blades of Alacrity/Staff of Wizardry - 100 Ultimate Orb - 76.67 Mystic Staff - 116 Messerschmidt's Reaver - 128 Eaglehorn - 136
Eaglehorn is 7.16 times more expensive than Branch in terms of Gold/Stat. Not that it matters, but hey, just something nice to know.
One could argue that Gauntlet/Slipper/Mantle gives it to 3 in a specific stat. However, for 21 additional gold, you get the same thing with 3 branches, and plus you get +3 to the 2 other stats. Branches > most things early game. Takes up too much inventory space? Just sell them back when you decide to start building your core items; by mid - lategame, branches will lose what made them so damn good early game, since you only have 6 inventory spaces. If there were unlimited inventory spaces, I'd just mass branches for the whole game, since they have the best gold per stat ratio in the whole game.
On July 19 2007 00:49 BluzMan wrote: Man, I've just started the thing, randomed the Harbringer, and I'm really curious why noone has yet discussed this somewhat interesting hero. With some quick leveling in a bot game I quickly brought his orb damage to like 300 and ulti damage vs most heroes to something like 1000+. And he really plays unique and requires somewhat unorthodox items.
There's actually about two effective ways to play Harbringer: Astral/Eclipse and Orb/Essence. You'll eventually end up going both, anyways. I prefer going Astral, with one point in his orb for early harass, since Eclipse is a huge AoE nuke, and Astral gives you a free Euls. It's funny as hell when it gets to a point in some pub games that you can one shot a lot of heroes just with Eclipse. So my friend was laning against Meepos as Obsidian, and eventually Meepo couldn't even stay in the lane because after a few Nulls and a Mystic Staff, Eclipse would one shot him. Same with the Sniper on the other team. So eventually it gets to the point where you have BoTs, Aghanims, Mystic Staff(s), and you run around with a spammable 300 damage nuke, and Sanity's Eclipse, which is guaranteed death for most other heroes.
And to rpf: Just play a lot, and I mean a lot, and you'll begin to see what works, and what doesn't. When you start to feel comfortable with the level of pub games, try to find a group of people you can play with, and start some IHs (In House games), since organized gameplay is much more challenging than pub stomping. You'll find that usually a few circlets and branches paired with some tangoes and clarities is enough to get you by early game (it's what I usually start with), and you can take a few bracers (or wraiths/nulls) to increase your lane stayability and overall survivability until you can put together your core items.
One last note. Blink Dagger is excellent on almost every hero that can get it. Just to give a few examples: Nevermore uses it to properly place Requiem, Crix uses it after he channels Epi, CM uses it to place Freezing Field, Tidehunter uses it for Ravage, Enigma uses it for Black Hole, and so on. Blink also serves as one of the game's best escape mechnisms, and it's one of the main reasons a lot of fragile DPS heroes get it.
There's also a argument for Blink Dagger vs Lothars, especially for Nevermore. I used to play Nevermore quite frequently, and Lothars seemed like a good option, since you could get pretty gay OHKO kills with Requiem, and it seemed like a decent escape mechanism. However, that's only in pubs. In organized play, Wards > Lothars, and Blink is much more versatile once you become accustomed to the range of it. With Lothars, you can't move through cliffs, but with Blink, you can. Also, Lothars is 3800, which is quite pricey for a first item, while Blink Dagger is only 2150. Why would you get that as a first item? Nevermore badly needs an escape mechanism, since he has no stun, slow, or telepoprting skill of any kind. It doesn't help that he's very fragile early game, either. You also need one of the two to get in position for his ult, which is a massive AoE spell that damages and slows.
On July 19 2007 08:22 rpf wrote: It's not like I'm not trying things myself. I've experimented with some things myself, but I just wanted feedback from others is all.
I watch what others do, and I try to see why they do it. I look at my own abilities, and try to figure out if I'm going to need more stats, regen, IAS, IMS, etc.
I just like to see what others think and do.
I know it seems like I'm basically going, "TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT DO," but I'm really not.
But it does seem like an RoR at the beginning is a great idea, as regen is pretty important, I've found, to staying in a lane.
For a while I tried going dual bracers (I'd buy circlets/tangos and then go boots/finish bracers later), but all that did was buy me another minute while I absorbed another nuke before I'd have to make a fountain run.
After trying going regen, I can see why RoR is a good idea. Plus, if you intend to go mek, or if you need to go hood, you can do it.
By the way, is it just me, or does regen really suck late game unless you have a lot?
I played a game earlier where I had hood, linken's, and a heart. My regen was nuts, and so it was good, but I realized I've never had it that high before, and I've always noticed how shitty my regen was with just a bfury or whatever.
Not to sound gay or anything but after 10 pages in this thread this post is pretty annoying.
At least 3-4 people have proven that they know what they're talking about and have showed you and told you what items to get and how to go about getting which items for which heroes yet something like this comes from you...?
Imo you are basically asking ' TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT TO DO ' for each and every hero. Sure you may be saying only lich, magnus etc for now but what happens when you're done with them? You'll just quit asking item questions forever?
Seriously, just realize that you need to fucking play and see how items turn out in games. If you want to get better, play better players. This is the equivalent of asking what unit combo to use against enemies in starcraft. It's endless and there are many ways to reach the same victory.
Saying something doesn't work just because your head is full of stats and numbers isn't very convincing. You could say you have tried it and you think your build is better because of A and B. Otherwise your teorycrafting arguments are null and void.
I've owned pubs with AXE getting the following items: Linkens, BoT, Skadi and... (drumroll) Aghanim + Dagon(which I didn't get to use)! Obviously my AXE build is better than your AXE build and saying that it does not work just because your head is full of stats and numbers isn't very convincing. You could say you have tried it(but I'm sure you never did, so you really can't) and you think your build is better because of A and B. Otherwise your teorycrafting arguments are null and void. If most of you say I'm wrong that obviously means that the majority is wrong only because people are easy to influence. If most of you agree, then obviously the majority is with me and I'm right!
On July 19 2007 13:01 LastWish wrote: Saying something doesn't work just because your head is full of stats and numbers isn't very convincing. You could say you have tried it and you think your build is better because of A and B. Otherwise your teorycrafting arguments are null and void.
Oh, trust me, I've tried all of these builds before. Of course it's not based off of pure theorycraft.
Even though it looks like pure theorycraft, the numbers are just there to backup our findings. All the builds discussed have been used in game, and are what I have seen to be the most effective. Obviously, things do change after awhile though.
On July 19 2007 13:37 paper wrote: spamming battle hunger when people can last hit = lol
Let them kill your creep wave quickly, then put it on them. hehehe
Or, put it on a melee hero, then wait for him to run in to last hit. Either deny or get a couple hits on him. The damage from it adds up over time. If you wait until you have rank 2 or 3, it's even better.
On July 19 2007 13:37 paper wrote: spamming battle hunger when people can last hit = lol
Let them kill your creep wave quickly, then put it on them. hehehe
Or, put it on a melee hero, then wait for him to run in to last hit. Either deny or get a couple hits on him. The damage from it adds up over time. If you wait until you have rank 2 or 3, it's even better.
Axe and Juggernaut are so fun.
Get battle hunger at lvl 22-25 plz -_- Maybe if they reduced the mana cost it might be a more threatening of a skill
Anyway I didn't thoroughly read that huge post in page 10 even though the poster did have some truth to share mainly because he relied on numbers so much. Like SnY vs Skadi, which he implied Skadi is better. It's not that simple.
I rarely care about the total cost of items because it's really the transition that matters.
The only items for which I know the total cost by heart are the obvious/easy ones: BoT, hands of midas, radiance, old aegis etc.
'Can I really afford to walk around with nothing while farming for the next 10 minutes?' is the question I ask rather than comparing numbers and stats to see which item is better overall since the context of the items make a difference.
You have to work for your money in dota. Hell, the only reason iron wood branches are the most cost-effective is because they're so cheap anyone can afford them. Unfortunately we don't have thosuands of item slots so let's leave it at that. It won't make a huge difference whether you go circlet/gauntlets or branches.
True, it really doesn't matter which item you go early on, but don't dismiss branches as stupid.
Although the transition for some items may be a long time, it shouldn't change things significantly. When you build Butterfly, you get Eaglehorn first most of the time, although if you had quarterstaff first, you may be able to use the IAS to help farm for your Butterfly. Most games have a period of farming, where almost ever hero is farming, or trying to get into favorable positions. Spending your money as you earn it will not be quite as beneficial as saving it up for the higher tier items, since after a period of time, only tier 3-4 items will even have any effect. And the answer is yes, you can afford to walk around with nothing for the next 10 minutes. If you are really farming poorly then get more bracers to buff your life, but don't stop going for Stygian Desolator and start going for Basher or something just because you can't farm.
I still standby my statement that SnY is a bad item, although it may be beneficial for some select characters. For the comparison of Skadi and SnY, it seems pretty simple. Even when you're building for your Skadi, you have a lot of bonuses from your Ultimate Orbs, each one is worth one part of SnY, each of which are not too bad.
EDIT: DotA pros can't live off the money they earn. Usually pros are ones that play on IHCS1, or in the formal leagues and do well.
I just played a game with DK, and I noticed I would run out of mana really quickly. I had enough mana for the stun/nuke combo, so I didn't go for a talisman, but opted for a RoB. I didn't intend to take it any farther than that, as to me it wasn't an integral part of my hero's build.
I'm just curious how the mathcraft works out on the different mana regen items. Should I have just left it at a sobi? Or should I have gone for a void stone, or (gas) an arcane?
I considered arcane, but it's a bit expensive, even if it would give me endless mana. I figured the RoB would at least help me push, and it isn't that expensive. I'm just curious what you guys think.
Hm, that's a good alternative. I agree that the arcane would be overkill. I wasn't constantly spamming those spells, although having arcane and spamming my nuke would have been incredible for farming creep waves and pushing to their last tower just to go push another lane while my 19 waves of creeps that never got hurt are beating on their tower.
On July 19 2007 19:45 Ack1027 wrote: Our HTGN Pro-Dota match.
I like how you use the word pro everywhere... I hope that means they pay you money for it and that you can do it for your living.
You got a team? Would you like to play us?
I said pro because that's the name of the division of the league we are in. HTGN-PRO. There is open [ soon semi pro ] and pro. So what else do you want me to call it? Am I claiming that my team is as good as x6, nafu, hi2u, dota master team? I am not in any way, but I am still in the pro division.
Please don't get your panties in a bunch this isn't starcraft where only people who get paid to play are pro players. Dota is still young.
Lol, if he showed you the HTGN one, you can see me (lina) getting swapped and ff-ed every fight while the other team completely ignores the impending 3 ultis (Sven, Lich, SF).
Lets just say I initiated by being swapped and chain nuked/stunned.
Tbh the most intense games [ that weren't one sided ] that I have saved is the second replay I posted on page 4 of this thread.
On July 19 2007 23:38 rpf wrote: Nice! 14-2 is pretty impressive. I assume you spent most of the mid game ganking the crap out of people and got an early level lead?
Well at first I kind of laughed because leshrac came late into the lane and I thought they were gonna solo razor against me so I figured it'd be an easy fight. But it was still an easy fight since leshrac couldn't land a level 2 stun on me at all [ but hit a couple level 1 stuns somehow ] and I just ripped them with shadowraze spam since they had such low hp.
Mid game was mostly the other team sending all they had at me in middle [ I never left mid ] and I just fought them as they came, you could call it one by one but basically their tiny or furion would try and initiate by attacking mid tower from different sides [ tp behind or from cliff above top water ] but they would always come too early and I'd bring them down to half before their team came to help so it was easy for me to escape and pick off kills as they ran away.
Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
well, wards doesn't mean you can take on any invis heroes, it just gives you vision, but if you were low health already, even if nerubian didn't have windwalk, he could kill you easily anyways
if you're ranged against templar assassin, wards is okay i guess since you could hit her from back (if your ranged attack is farther than hers), but if you're melee, i wouldn't attack her with wards anyways cuz her attack does 200 plus minus armor so you'd probably end up worse out than her
On July 20 2007 19:44 rpf wrote: Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
-apem isn't a bad mode; it's fun
Anyways, you could either
1. Get a tank to buy a gem and just stick with him so that nobody can jump you unexpectedly 2. Buy both Observer/Sentry Wards and place them together 3. Buy a gem yourself, although this is riskier.
That's my 2 cents, although you should wait for Ack's reply.
If you don't have an escape option, you shouldn't be pushing alone anyways.
If your soloing with the drow vs a melee, you should be last hitting & hugging your tower. Your responsibility isn't to kill heroes, its to out level & cash your opponent. You should be fighting near full health all the time. If you get a cheap hero kill - fine. But don't risk losing most of your hitpoints to lower a ww hero to near zero. They automatically have a better chance of escaping alive - even if you get a supporting gank. You do not.
In -em, its very easy to push the towers. But you need to ask yourself - What advantage do i get fighting farther from my base, and closer to theirs? All it means is they have a shorter trip back, and closer gank support. What it means to you is an extended opportunity to chase & kill you.
On July 20 2007 19:44 rpf wrote: Hm, I need help. How can you effectively counter heroes that can go invisible or wind walk?
I buy wards, and place them along my lane as I push so that it's mostly covered, but even with them I still get owned.
For example, I just played an apem (shut up, I know), and went top with drow as sentinels. I was against templar assassin, so after I had boots/bands, I got some wards and pushed with them, taking out her traps, and getting her incredibly low numerous times. I just couldn't get the kill off.
And then nerubian would come out of nowhere and rape me, too. Even with wards in the area, I couldn't do much.
I actually starting farming for a lothar's just to be a bitch back, but by then they had a few levels on all of us, so we all left. :/
Hmmm you seem to be having an uncommon problem.
With most people it's the other way around, they get wards down and they get counter-warded or just are unable to use wards right and can never see the enemy even though they should be able to seem him almost 90% of the time.
In your situation [ the em game with drow at top ] you have to recognize that naturally how the creeps and how top lane works out your creeps will always be closer to the scourge tower than yours [ unless they push aggressively, but a templar alone wouldn't do that ]
Recognize that you also already have the advantage. WW is cheap trickery. He may have ww but you have range and as long as you have a brain and a short term memory you can always outlane the guy just by memorizing where he is melded. Actually it's not even ww, it's just plain meld he cannot move much without losing the bonuses from his skills. If you get wards it should be game over for templar 1v1 in a lane against drow. You should easily be able to get off at least 2-3 frost arrows off any time he comes into your 600 range. Just be aware of your tower and try not to push.
If you find yourself walking constantly back and forth between the area where the creeps are fighting and the safety range of your tower just fuck the lane and go neutral creep either the strong neutrals right by top or hell even into scourge neutral area.
The ganking na is something that can't really be controlled by you especially in a pub game. You'll have to have teammates call that. Because sentry wards no longer have much of a natural vision it's also useless to try and use those to detect oncoming ganks.
Here's what I would do in your situation:
Play normally and definitely would be out last-hitting templar [ she's basically melee and if you don't stand behind creeps you won't get hurt ] and frost arrowing her anytime she came close. If somehow she kept getting hits on me [ aka turned 6 and used psionic trap + meld combo ] I would buy sentry wards and place one in the lane where creeps mostly meet up so I could see any attack coming and go back to playing how I was before since he cannot surprise me.
If I find that I am getting ganked by other invis heroes I would buy observer wards and place one in top river [ you know that popular cliff ] because no hero is gonna invis before they check if a rune is there or not and very few if any heroes will come gank straight from healing at base [ which you should notice they are missing by then ]
If somehow I am getting ridiculously gayed by constant windwalking gankers AND templar is getting the best of me with psionic trap + meld harass I would just buy sentries and tower hug like shit [ but I really don't see how this situation could happen unless na, clinks, sa, and templar were all in the same game in my lane at all times ]
EDIT: In -em games once you get your enemy's first tower down in your lane it's a good time for you to go gank or help other lanes or even go neutral creep... When you push past where the first tower was you automatically become a target of a team gank. I usually go help other lanes that have enemy towers still up and then by the time I return to my lane it's back to normal creep flow or I'm strong enough to keep pushing.
Thanks, Ack. That helped. I've always had problems dealing with the invisible heroes, because once I can see them, and I realize I'm dead, I usually panic.
And what you said in your edit is what I always do. I push my lane when I can, as I don't want to push too early, but if I see an opening (i.e. my current creep wave is raping theirs, and I have another coming) I'll push to their tower, and once their first tower is down, I look at three things:
1. How are the other two lanes? 2. Any ganks possible? 3. Where else can I push?
I give defense priority, then pushing another lane, and then ganking, but I'll gank if it's convenient.
Also, I've done some experimenting, and wanted to share my thoughts:
As far as starting items go, I've broken it down into a few categories.
The fourth group is either skipping all of the above and going straight for your first item (i.e. going RoH to get vanguard instead of getting stout/tangos at the fountain).
At the start of every game, I get two tangos (four uses), and then I either get:
1. Two circlets 2. RoR 3. Random consumable regen items (usually clarities)
I've found that going straight stats/tangos isn't really all that great. It's partly because I'm careless, and take more creep hits than are necessary, or if you're against a nuker you'll be out of tangos very quickly.
I've found that going with the second option is a bit better. The RoR regen is enough to negate creep hits, and if you're against a nuker, a large percentage of their nuke damage is negated before they can do it again, and so that really helps against harassers. Plus, if the enemy team is nuke heavy, you can go hood, and already have an item. By the time the RoR is useless, you more than got your money's worth, so selling it mid game isn't a big deal. If it's ap, you can afford RoR/two tangos, otherwise in ar you can work towards a bracer or talisman if you need it.
I rarely go with all consumables, although I have done it. The staying power is unmatched, but isn't really needed. I don't do this anymore.
I don't skip items at the start, ever. A couple of times I have just gone straight for a vanguard, but it sucked because I really needed tangos and whatnot.
in em games going straight for ring of health isnt bad, allows you to stay in lane for a really long time. i usually only do this withheroes i would get either vanguard or bfury for. i dont get bfury that much honestly when i think about it, the only heroes that would come to mind is sk mag, or for fun sven. 2 bfurys give you over 100% cleave, gg ;D
Even if I'm going van, I'll still go RoR/tangos off the start, and then get RoH to work towards my first item. It might just be OCD, but I don't buy items at the start that are for my first item. I prefer to separate it.
So, for example, if I'm goin van on axe (which you should since he depends on getting hit), I'd go RoR/2 tangos, then while I'm in my lane, I'll run over and get a RoH when I can afford it between creep waves, and then get the rest of the pieces. I don't know if that's bad, but I prefer not to buy starting items as parts of my first item.
You don't need that much regen, even against strong nukers people rarely get more than 6hp/s and you're getting 8hp/s as a standart build? Regen becomes worthless very quickly, so you should try to have as little as possible. In pub games you can just go with 2-3 tangos or flasks, this should be (more than) enough for your early game and get regen items only if you're going for mek/vanguard/hood.
On July 21 2007 04:16 rpf wrote: Even if I'm going van, I'll still go RoR/tangos off the start, and then get RoH to work towards my first item. It might just be OCD, but I don't buy items at the start that are for my first item. I prefer to separate it.
So, for example, if I'm goin van on axe (which you should since he depends on getting hit), I'd go RoR/2 tangos, then while I'm in my lane, I'll run over and get a RoH when I can afford it between creep waves, and then get the rest of the pieces. I don't know if that's bad, but I prefer not to buy starting items as parts of my first item.
Unless your opponents are very good or you really suck, Axe can get by fine with 2-3 bracers and a stats helix build before just going straight for a heart, you'll have 1600 hp at level 12 and then heart a bit later (this is apem)
I don't get that much. I usually just buy tangos/RoR off the start, and then build towards a RoH. I see what you mean--I don't need both a RoR and a RoH, especially if I'm going van/perseverance, so I guess I just have to get past my OCD.
I just dislike going to a lane without a regen item. I think part of it is preference, and part of it is your hero.
I admit I'm just copying the AI bot build of RoR/tangos. It works well, even if the RoR won't be used for anything.
I don't know, I still prefer going RoR/tangos off the start. Maybe some of you only need tangos for regen, but I can't. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
I've yet to get a high level replay to work, so I don't know what I've done wrong. I'll figure it out later. I'm just curious how the "pros" buy at the start.
Anyway on the issue of regen [ specifically hp regen ] I disagree with what lololol said.
The general golden rule is: Increasing max hp > Increasing Hp regen.
However, this does not mean you should ' get as little regen as possible ' as lololol stated.
Since your replays do not work I will tell you what ' pro ' team players usually buy to start with:
One guy is designated to buy the chicken. It's usually a gank hero or a hero that's definitely going to be in a dual lane [ 2v2 or 2v1] and will be staying there. The guy who usually buys the chicken generally ends up using the rest of his money on consume-ables such as flask, tangoes, or clarities. Why? Here's the reasoning behind consume-ables: If you buy these you better be able to stay in your lane for a long ass time.
And why not? You have 7 hp regen whenever you need it that cannot be interrupted [ tangoes ] you have a FOUR HUNDRED hp recovery item that requires not much skill to avoid getting hit. Clarities are bought in 2-5's and are for spammers like zeus who doesn't really need as much hp regen since he can last hit AND hit opponents from a very safe range with arc lightning/static field.
The solo or carry hero you will find that he takes something like this: Two circlet tangoes Mantle/Slippers/Gauntlet and circlet and tango and maybe one clarity or another mantle/slipper/gauntlet 4 Ironwoods and 2 clarities and 4 tangos.
The reason carry heroes get circlets are because they obviously if they solo they have more gold for themselves [ albeit they better know how to last hit ] so they will be able to get to bracers faster than the rest of their team. Some heroes like Queen of Pain require mantle sometimes because if you decide you want to use your skillset combo [ ss blink scream wave ] you will need the mana.
With shadowfiend I usually get 4ironwood 2 clarity 4 tango. I think it's the perfect combination between stats and regen. 4 ironwoods allow me to start my last hit train going so my necromastery will be higher and the 4tango 2 clarity make it hard for anyone to push me back [ unless it's tri lane or kotl tauren ] Shadowfiend's shadowraze only cost 75 so the 2 clarities are more than enough for ample spams of shadowraze and there's very few combo's that will send fiend back with 4 tangos and a tower.
Regen is definitely good late game. It doesn't die out at all as the game progresses. Naturally heart already gives you 11 hp regen a second ON TOP of your str base regen so I don't see how anyone could argue that.... Heart is one of the best and balanced items in the game imo. Regen will allow you take massive hits and fall back for maybe 5 seconds before you can go back in to unload the rest of your mana [ damage ] Of course you don't want a team of 1000 hp heroes with 20 hp regen going back and forth all the time in a team battle that would be ridiculously bad.
Rather you'd want a team of say 2000 hp heroes with 8 hp regen.
Just make sure that if you are going into your lane with Ring of regen and tango like you say you like to do you are in that lane for a fucking long time... like level 9-11 in -em or around level 10 in -ap. Even if you have no mana just hug your tower like hell and get every last hit you can.
If you get ironwoods or circlets or stat items as you call them you are gearing yourself more towards getting kills so play accordingly. I mean hell with RoR/Tango you can still kill people but the mana given to you from circlets and ironwoods help more.
Thanks, Ack. I don't know what the problem with the replays is. It says I either don't have the map the replay was played on, or I just get a random error message.
I guess what I'm learning now is when and why different starting items are good. It doesn't seem like I was too far off, either.
I always either get 2 tangos/2 circlets (working towards bracers/talismans) or RoR/2 tangos (then go from there to other items) or all consumables (tangos, flasks, and clarities).
The only thing I learned from WoW is that it doesn't matter how much damage you do, you do none if you're dead, so get some fucking hp. So that's what I try to do.
I just played a game where I went 2 circlet/2 tangos, and I think it's better than RoR/tangos. RoR is nice, but it's useless past the early game, and unless I'm going mek/hood, it's useless to buy it off the start since it won't be used later on for anything.
I'm curious though, why the AI bots always buy RoR/tangos. Maybe just whoever wrote the AI liked that buy plan.
If you're going for booster items, like the vit, energy, and point boosters, is it a good idea to then skip bracers?
I'll give you a more specific example: I just played an ap where I went Zeus, and immediately went for arcane. I skipped my usual 2 tango/2 circlet build, and went 2 tango/2 clarity/RoProtection, then got my energy booster, finished the arcane, and got boots.
But then, I went with 2 bracers, and then went soul booster. But that made me think: is getting a soul booster after 2 bracers kind of redundant?
I mean, 2 bracers gives: 228 HP 78 MP 6 or 12 damage 6% IAS 12 Str 6 Agi 6 Int
while a soul booster gives: 450 HP 400 MP 1 HP/sec regen 10% MP regen
I think the soul booster is better overall, even if it doesn't give you any stats, but it's also much more expensive.
Basically I guess I'm asking: if you're going soul booster, or if you're taking vit booster for an item, is it a good idea to skip the bracers since the vit booster gives you comparable HP?
For example when I play lich, I play him super-safe. I get Ring of regen and branches into mekansm first thing. Then I either go the necrobook build [ only against mana heavy or aoe lineups ] or the aghanims route which is the one I usually take.
I get mek, then two bracers, then boots, THEN soul booster into aghanims. I don't really have an explanation for it other than that even with all those hp items Lich's damage comes from his nova and chain frost so basically I need to live enough to cast a chain and maybe 3-4 frosts and also mek twice during battles. I still find myself dying a lot even if I'm not completely focus fired even with that build. I would recommend getting mek 2x bracer for any kind of lich build.
For someone like Zeus I think it would be okay to go straight for the boosters while skipping out on the bracers. Zeus has the luxury of being able to be far from a team battle and still have all of his damage potential. All of his spells have ridiculous casting range and static field is fucking 800 range. [ the same range as you have to be to gain experience ] The only times I have found myself getting bracers for zeus is if after I get my arcane I die at least twice. At that point I immediately get bracers because I'm obviously dying to something that's gonna effect me later too. You have to realize that blink dagger is essential on zeus and if you can you should skip bracers simply because:
Offensively you have greater range than most anyone, yet still can deal your normal amount of damage
Defensively, you can get away in a blink so why waste money on more hp..?
Other's like maiden I skip bracers because her skill build involves stats and bkb so no need for bracers there.
Lina I always get bracers. The way I build her I usually end up with more hp than str heroes though.
Pugna always get bracers, too weak of a hero to skip out on bracers. Also one of, if not the highest intel growth in the game. [4 per level]
Necrolyte bracers are do-able and I usually get them.
Harbinger I get bracers even if I get aghanims simply because I usually use that hp from bracers to harass well.
QoP it's usually nulls or bracers depending on how weak the team is and if I can survive a team battle after I drop ALL my spells. But usually I get skadi or necrobook on QoP anyway.
I use to wayback for some heroes to get an early point booster, notably Lina/Lich/Bane, over bracers. And Soul Booster in general I find to be a horrible item unless the hero can really benefit from the added HP/MP (read Lesh/Harbinger), the main reason being that it doesn't really help over the other items you can get with 3k gold, like euls, and the other problem if you die farming to mystic staff, your usefulness decreases even more.
Wow, Ack, you really know a lot about the game. I take it you've been playing for quite some time? I started playing DotA the day before 6.45 came out, so I'm really new.
I guess my biggest problem is how I think. See, I need to have a "safe" build that I can default to if I don't know what to do. For a long time that was 2 bracer/boot --> BoT and heart/bfly/guin depending on primary stat.
Now I'm starting to see how that can/does change drastically based on the hero, matchup, etc.
So oddly enough, right now I'm having trouble with starting items, and some first items on specific heroes. That seems backwards to me so whatever.
I usually just go 2 circlet/2 tangos (4 uses), but that's not good if I don't need/want bracers/talismans. So for a while I tried going more for regen, and copied the AI bot buy, which is RoR/tangos. It's great for staying in the lane, and is good if you're going mek/hood anyhow, but isn't quite so good if that RoR goes to waste later on.
Like I said, I admit it's a psychological flaw that I need a safe, solid, default build, but meh. Once I get past that I think I'll be all set.
Ack, what do you think of Axe/Juggernaut? I usually go Van/dagger on axe and I've been told to go vlad's/bfly on jugger. The high damage on jugger makes the lifesteal pretty good.
On July 24 2007 13:14 rpf wrote: Wow, Ack, you really know a lot about the game. I take it you've been playing for quite some time? I started playing DotA the day before 6.45 came out, so I'm really new.
I guess my biggest problem is how I think. See, I need to have a "safe" build that I can default to if I don't know what to do. For a long time that was 2 bracer/boot --> BoT and heart/bfly/guin depending on primary stat.
Now I'm starting to see how that can/does change drastically based on the hero, matchup, etc.
So oddly enough, right now I'm having trouble with starting items, and some first items on specific heroes. That seems backwards to me so whatever.
I usually just go 2 circlet/2 tangos (4 uses), but that's not good if I don't need/want bracers/talismans. So for a while I tried going more for regen, and copied the AI bot buy, which is RoR/tangos. It's great for staying in the lane, and is good if you're going mek/hood anyhow, but isn't quite so good if that RoR goes to waste later on.
Like I said, I admit it's a psychological flaw that I need a safe, solid, default build, but meh. Once I get past that I think I'll be all set.
Ack, what do you think of Axe/Juggernaut? I usually go Van/dagger on axe and I've been told to go vlad's/bfly on jugger. The high damage on jugger makes the lifesteal pretty good.
Horrible idea, you are better off setting up an optimal build and then working down, safe builds gets you in trouble more than it helps.
Think of it like this, if you fall behind, your safe build (which is worse than the optimal) isn't gonna help. If you are ahead, the safe build is worthless as its still worse than the optimal. Learn the impact of the item rather than a build. If you are farming like shit, you won't be saving up for a Relic/Radiance. If you are getting gold like crazy, then all the more reason to get a big item.
Yeah how about you skip the Vlads period, in general its not that great of an item. Try diffusal on Juggs, it actually works better than people think it would. Hell even MoM is better than Vlads.
Well I guess I spent a lot of time thinking on my own through thousands of pub games because that's basically how I learned to play. It also helped to have someone to talk to dota about [ one of my clanmates ] he was never that good but was very knowledgeable about little details but at the same time I still figured out my own style to play. Though, the method in which I believe I improved the most was playing this one guy who was sort of a friend of a friend and for some reason every time we inhoused [ daily ] I would have to solo against him, and holy shit this guy was soooooooooooo annoying at dota. Not only annoying, but also pretty good but the way he played just taught me to deal with everything. To do this day, I've never met a more annoying dota player with EVERY HERO he plays.
I started playing in 6.19b, that's the earliest map I played around 2 years ago. I'm beginning to worry though... I think I'm nearing a plateau in my skill and I'm running out of ways to learn how to get better on my own. Just gonna have to keep playing with better people =)
For starting items and general item builds I'm past the stage where I have to think about it now, it's just very natural. Whatever I buy in the beginning is whatever I feel is right for the game and you gotta realize dota at a higher level is a lot more about how you play your hero. The builds you usually end up having on heroes probably end up the same a lot of times but even for the games that they change I usually just feel it out. My only real mid-to late game item purchase guideline is ' What item will make me and my team a stronger force '
For Axe vanguard dagger is a great build. For Juggernaut, my team usually makes me solo with him in pubs or inhouses and I've yet to play him in a league game but my build is 3x bracer into radiance right off the bat. Idk, I can't remember ever having trouble farming a relic with jugg even if I was solo'ing against 2 range heroes. clarity + blade fury is very strong.
1. Why 3 bracers on Jugg? I know I asked this on like, page two, but is there some reason why you take 3? I usually see them in pairs, but occasionally I only see 1 or 3, so I don't know if the 12 str is some magic number or something. It's like how zealots with +1 attack kill lings in one less hit. It's just some intricacy of the game, and I'm just confused if there's some reason for that particular number of bracers or whatever.
2. How the fuck does the money work?! I know ar is 700 starting, and ap is 450 after buying a hero, but how does the gold buildup work based on whether it's em or non em? I'm just trying to figure out how much gold I have to spend in each mode and haven't had the time to figure it out. I'm just wondering how much gold you get every x seconds in each mode. I tried to figure it out, but it's irregular in em, as it seems to increase on multiples of 7, but also randomly increased at like 9, 44, etc.
1. This question isn't as complicated as you think. There isn't some intricacy. The way I see bracers is this: they give great hp for the price, negligible agi gain, and a little mana. I used to get vanguard on jugg but I stopped because the way I play jugg I go neturals a lot. I get 3 because it's a nice balance toward the extra hp that jugg really needs [ fragile ] but if I neut I don't really get focus fired a lot and even if I do in team battles I can always pump more into stats. The 3rd bracer saves time + money and I still get pretty strong with jugg in the same amount of time if not faster. I very rarely ever need 3 bracers though. You have to understand that this 2 bracer standard comes from everyone else getting 2 bracers. [ besides obvious item details ] For example, if today everyone started getting 3 bracers, most of the other heroes would be forced to change their items accordingly.
2. Taken from the dota FAQ: Q. What is the rate of gold generation? A: Players get 8 gold every 7 seconds. If the game mode is -em, players will receive an additional 8 gold every 7 seconds after -em was initially typed.
Q. What is the Gold gain based on the number of deaths or kills in a roll? A: The amount of gold gained is 100 gold + 100 + 5/lvl of hero killed + bonus; Bonus ranges from 0-400 and increases in increments of 50 gold per each additional kill after the godlike status is achieved.
Q. What is the amount of gold loss for dying? A: Gold lost for dying is 30*hero level.
Edit: For question 1 I forgot to add that 3xbracer was much more common before vanguard was introduced. Yet another reason why I say it's worse for newbs to learn dota nowadays. A lot of more complications.
But also the reason I say icefrog should introduce more items not new heroes.
I agree. The more heroes there are, the less balanced the game will be. I'm not quite sure how much IceFrog is going for balance with DotA, but the more heroes there are, the more matchups that need to be accounted for, and and such, the more variables there are, which is a balancing nightmare.
And about the bracers thing: It's just that I always see 3 bracers on jugg. I always see 3 on huskar, and 3 talismans on silencer, and 3 bands on drow, and 3 bands on SA, and so on. I'm way too observant and analytical for my own good.
On July 27 2007 08:36 rpf wrote: I agree. The more heroes there are, the less balanced the game will be. I'm not quite sure how much IceFrog is going for balance with DotA, but the more heroes there are, the more matchups that need to be accounted for, and and such, the more variables there are, which is a balancing nightmare.
And about the bracers thing: It's just that I always see 3 bracers on jugg. I always see 3 on huskar, and 3 talismans on silencer, and 3 bands on drow, and 3 bands on SA, and so on. I'm way too observant and analytical for my own good.
From what I've seen, 3 talismans is actually quite rare on Silencer; He usually goes for Midas, finishes up 1/2 Nulls, then into Bots/Euls, then Heart/Scythe. Your typical carrying Silencer.
Bracers are just gotten based on need; you usually only get 2 because, as Ack said, everyone else gets 2, and therefore they somewhat "balance" each other out. However, Morphling can mass Wraiths nicely.
Remember, you should always keep your item build flexible.
1. When is it appropriate to get treads over BoT? I understand that Furion is (duh) the only hero you *don't* get BoT on, but it seems like BoT is better than treads in every way minus the IAS.
Now, IAS is most important on damage dealing heroes and heroes that depend on chance on hit abilities, so are treads better than BoT on heroes like Slardar, Void, Drow, or Sniper?
2. SnY. Ugh. I hate this item. 5k gold for minimal increases in a bunch of areas. What heroes do you want this on? Or is it just me and there are better items for the same or similar price?
Dagger isn't good on every hero, though. Heroes like sniper and drow benefit so much more from lothar's, seeing as the +agi/+dmg boosts their role superbly, plus gives them the much needed escape mechanism, whereas a dagger only gives them the escape, and many heroes have chase mechanisms, whereas lothar's keeps people from chasing you unless they have a gem/slardar ulted you/they drop wards every 10 feet.
1. When is it appropriate to get treads over BoT? I understand that Furion is (duh) the only hero you *don't* get BoT on, but it seems like BoT is better than treads in every way minus the IAS.
Now, IAS is most important on damage dealing heroes and heroes that depend on chance on hit abilities, so are treads better than BoT on heroes like Slardar, Void, Drow, or Sniper?
2. SnY. Ugh. I hate this item. 5k gold for minimal increases in a bunch of areas. What heroes do you want this on? Or is it just me and there are better items for the same or similar price?
1. Getting treads is up to you. If you're farming really well you can go ahead and get them, or if you have an easy game. Ideally you want to get BoT only though. I like to get treads myself on most agi heros/dpsers just cause I like the IAS and I'm not playing games where the money is gonna kill me.
2. SnY is only a great item on one hero, the bounty hunter. It's easy to farm because it's made of many cheap pieces, but for any hero there is almost ALWAYS a much better and more cost efficient item, except that item takes a lot longer time to buy the parts for. Again, ideally, SnY should not be gotten on any hero other than Bounty Hunter but again, depends on the game and your tastes.
Hm, I guess dagger is good on anyone. At least you can just blink through trees and book it, whereas with lothar's you just have to run to safety and port out.
1. When is it appropriate to get treads over BoT? I understand that Furion is (duh) the only hero you *don't* get BoT on, but it seems like BoT is better than treads in every way minus the IAS.
Now, IAS is most important on damage dealing heroes and heroes that depend on chance on hit abilities, so are treads better than BoT on heroes like Slardar, Void, Drow, or Sniper?
2. SnY. Ugh. I hate this item. 5k gold for minimal increases in a bunch of areas. What heroes do you want this on? Or is it just me and there are better items for the same or similar price?
1. Getting treads is up to you. If you're farming really well you can go ahead and get them, or if you have an easy game. Ideally you want to get BoT only though. I like to get treads myself on most agi heros/dpsers just cause I like the IAS and I'm not playing games where the money is gonna kill me.
2. SnY is only a great item on one hero, the bounty hunter. It's easy to farm because it's made of many cheap pieces, but for any hero there is almost ALWAYS a much better and more cost efficient item, except that item takes a lot longer time to buy the parts for. Again, ideally, SnY should not be gotten on any hero other than Bounty Hunter but again, depends on the game and your tastes.
SnY is a great item as a surprise item, where it can work on a hero but there are better alternatives (more expensive). To me its like Stygian/Mael vs the MKB/Buriza/Radiance dilemma on some heroes, that first hammer is gonna help alot but overall the latter are better items.
i recently started playing again and i'm amazed at how good the diffusal manta line on any hero that has some type of images this includes spectre/naga/pl etc. diffusal is such a godly item, i wonder why i don't see it more often.. dirt cheap too, it almost pays for itself with the extra hero kills you get is there a reason why it's not more popular?
btw, is there an easy way to get spectre to hop cliffs and trees to escape using the dagger skill? i've been using shift-click spam, but sometimes it fails on me and it's really frustrating when i die in those situations ;(
i can't find where to get some of the items at the higher level shops. are there different shops outside of the base somewhere? items like the demon edge, etc
On August 05 2007 21:55 Meta wrote: i can't find where to get some of the items at the higher level shops. are there different shops outside of the base somewhere? items like the demon edge, etc
Are you serious? Ask in game and someone will ping the location for you.
On August 05 2007 21:55 Meta wrote: i can't find where to get some of the items at the higher level shops. are there different shops outside of the base somewhere? items like the demon edge, etc
Are you serious? Ask in game and someone will ping the location for you.
On August 05 2007 21:55 Meta wrote: i can't find where to get some of the items at the higher level shops. are there different shops outside of the base somewhere? items like the demon edge, etc
Are you serious? Ask in game and someone will ping the location for you.
I'd advise against asking questions in game. The DotA community is immature, impatient, and selfish. That's why you can't download maps in WC3, any little mistake you make automatically makes you a newb feeder, and if you ask a question that's "obvious," it makes you a "retard."
oh yeah i got a question...there seems to be a new shop at both sides in parallel with the river along the middle...what items do they sell over there??
hf^_^. game with naix 4vs5 two sides down and " I " still won.
Holy shit strafe... I cant believe the other team didn't win with just the heroes they had... lich, veno, tinker (solo), warlock, enchantress.... and you had naix, slardar, nevermore, techies, rhasta (disconnected)...
rofl, they were so bad... enchant and warlock vs naix and slardar, and somehow you didnt get totally raped early game... :o
On August 06 2007 18:46 unknown.sam wrote: oh yeah i got a question...there seems to be a new shop at both sides in parallel with the river along the middle...what items do they sell over there??
$700 Bottle, $300 Shield, $950 Helm, which can be found at the base shops, too, so this just saves you some walking/sending a courier.
hf^_^. game with naix 4vs5 two sides down and " I " still won.
Holy shit strafe... I cant believe the other team didn't win with just the heroes they had... lich, veno, tinker (solo), warlock, enchantress.... and you had naix, slardar, nevermore, techies, rhasta (disconnected)...
rofl, they were so bad... enchant and warlock vs naix and slardar, and somehow you didnt get totally raped early game... :o
yeah how didnt they win with lich, tinker, venom and warlock?!?! i dont understand!!!1
and you had naix, slardar, rhasta, and nevermore!! how could this happen!?!?
On August 06 2007 16:57 rpf wrote: I'd advise against asking questions in game. The DotA community is immature, impatient, and selfish. That's why you can't download maps in WC3, any little mistake you make automatically makes you a newb feeder, and if you ask a question that's "obvious," it makes you a "retard."
So, ask your questions here.
u r so wrong. u will understand once u become more adept
2 x RoR --> boots --> helm --> complete HoD --> BoT --> 1) eul's 2) vanguard 3)heart get tangos and clarity potions and tp scrolls as needed to stay in the field
Skill: rot / hook / depends (but doesn't make a big difference) / depends / hook / dismember / hook / rot / rot etc. Remember to get flesh heap *after* you complete hood of defiance so the magic resistance stacks
tangos/circlets/ironwoodbranches --> mass wraith bands --> BoT --> farm (don't rely on wave too much like a newb) like your life depends on it and get whatever you need (in this particular game I got hood --> butterfly --> skadi)
tangos/+stats for last hitting --> so many builds available but I went wraith band / bracer / demon edge / quarter staff / boots / finish MKB / blink dagger / BoT in this game. Observer wards help tons in mid lane too.
Skill: headshot / range / range / headshot / range / assassinate / range / headshot / headshot / fuck scattershot
Skill: poison sting / stats / ps / stats / ps / viper strike / ps / stats and get frenzy 12~15 You can also stack hood with corrosive skin if it's worth it, of course.
now just experimenting a bit with sniper and had some delay, but i promised rpf a sniper replay some time ago. I found out that you need attack speed first, because now it was just hard to farm up. manta is actually the shit on sniper, next time I'd go for hyperstone, bot, manta, w/e
dota-league is the shizzle ill never get VIP cause i get the biggest retards EVER on my team 2 of my sig yesterday:
ar, i get warlock, all agree that i solo mid, i buy a chick, share with all, and go front of base tower to creep block run into kitchen, fetch some water, when im back my hero is running to top lane and NAIX stands at mid river solo and his starting item RING OF BASILUS
2nd game, reverse some retards of my team give them: visage, meepo, sk
we get crap heroes i go top lane with alchemist, demon witch crys for solo and gets it (randomed demon witch)
visage is a monster in the hands of a good player and that guy had 1800 points whereas our solo demon witch (i checked after game) had 980 or so, AND visage was host
long story short, when visage was lvl 7, demon witch was lvl 3 and had 0-3 stats visage had radiance after 22 minutes
On August 08 2007 12:12 ToT)BrAiN( wrote: i played games where i was 13-1 or 15-0 and still lost
I feel your pain.
Once I was 22-0 with Lich in a scrim with 2 rax and another base tower down and I left control and went afk because I figured we won came back and we lost the game because of one mid push through our two rax and straight to our world tree.
well for me, anytime you go over 10 kills without dying is pretty good...i had a friend who went 38-1 with rylai...but then of course the peeps he played with weren't really up to standard, but it's still pretty hard to get over 25 kills with any hero if you think about it...best dota player i've ever come across (in terms of 1v1 on the same lane - you'd end up feeding him)...a korean bloke by the name of joo...
On August 10 2007 10:39 Meta wrote: how on earth do you watch replays. it says i don't have the right maps in the download folder, but i'm 100% positive those maps are there.
2 x RoR --> boots --> helm --> complete HoD --> BoT --> 1) eul's 2) vanguard 3)heart get tangos and clarity potions and tp scrolls as needed to stay in the field
Skill: rot / hook / depends (but doesn't make a big difference) / depends / hook / dismember / hook / rot / rot etc. Remember to get flesh heap *after* you complete hood of defiance so the magic resistance stacks
tangos/circlets/ironwoodbranches --> mass wraith bands --> BoT --> farm (don't rely on wave too much like a newb) like your life depends on it and get whatever you need (in this particular game I got hood --> butterfly --> skadi)
tangos/+stats for last hitting --> so many builds available but I went wraith band / bracer / demon edge / quarter staff / boots / finish MKB / blink dagger / BoT in this game. Observer wards help tons in mid lane too.
Skill: headshot / range / range / headshot / range / assassinate / range / headshot / headshot / fuck scattershot
Skill: poison sting / stats / ps / stats / ps / viper strike / ps / stats and get frenzy 12~15 You can also stack hood with corrosive skin if it's worth it, of course.
If anyone finds these helpful I'll post more :D
Hey heen, I'm trying to learn sniper. Can you post more sniper builds? Like builds for when you sucked at farming early game, and builds for when you owned at farming? TYVM.
I don't know about you guys, but I go lothar's on sniper/drow after bracers (or bands on drow because of her damage modifier).
Anyways, I have a question about overpowered heroes. I mean, bloodseeker, spiritbreaker, enchantress, geo, night stalker, etc. How do you counter that bullshit? Why does IceFrog allow such fucking bullshit to exist in his game?
Seriously, I'm so fucking sick and tired of getting ruptured and dying because I CAN'T FUCKING GO ANYWHERE OR DIE (so sit there and let him beat you to death), or because geo comes out of nowhere with his permaroot (oh that's so fucking fair).
I've gotten to the point where I'll just leave a pub if someone chooses any of that bullshit. I don't know about you guys, but I like to play fair heroes. It's a bit more rewarding when I beat someone because of my superior item choice, last hit ability, and good synergy. But hey, that's me.
On August 10 2007 14:53 rpf wrote: I don't know about you guys, but I go lothar's on sniper/drow after bracers (or bands on drow because of her damage modifier).
Anyways, I have a question about overpowered heroes. I mean, bloodseeker, spiritbreaker, enchantress, geo, night stalker, etc. How do you counter that bullshit? Why does IceFrog allow such fucking bullshit to exist in his game?
Seriously, I'm so fucking sick and tired of getting ruptured and dying because I CAN'T FUCKING GO ANYWHERE OR DIE (so sit there and let him beat you to death), or because geo comes out of nowhere with his permaroot (oh that's so fucking fair).
I've gotten to the point where I'll just leave a pub if someone chooses any of that bullshit. I don't know about you guys, but I like to play fair heroes. It's a bit more rewarding when I beat someone because of my superior item choice, last hit ability, and good synergy. But hey, that's me.
With hero's like that you just need to slow down there farming early game. On bloodseeker, get a ranged to kick his ass, or run around with 2 people. so that when you get ruptured he cant just run in at you and kick your ass without him dying.
SB is easy, go zues. Zues kicks the shit out of SB.
Enchant, you could do someone like a silencer? or a QoP
Geo, easy as shit to kill. Has fucking tiny assed amount of health. Pick pudge, hook a clone. he is dead for sure.
Night stalker. Hmm, he is a pussy for half of the game, if you have a shitty team he will hunt during the day, but if you have someone who can do anything at all on your team, he wont do shit. Pick a Luna or CM. Just focus on ganks.
All these heroes you listed are good 1v1 and can't contribute much to a team battle, so you should stick together with your teammates, or have a hero capable of handling them 1v1. Of course, if your teammates feed them, then it's pretty much over, I've had games with NS, where I could just charge against 3-4 enemy heroes, kill the easiest target and run away without dying
On August 10 2007 07:46 {ToT}Strafe wrote: Today I went 17-0 good enough? tomorrow my next attempt. Ill pick razor or something
I'm mostly curious how did they didn't lose/disconnect/whatever when you had 50 kills
Pacifist, I will fulfill your request Will try playing sniper for a day and I'll try all kinds of builds so you can pick whichever you like.
rpf, what the hell man. You have to realize you are bad at this game, so you complaining about imba is really unauthoritative AND wrong. You are most likely playing with shitty ppl. And in low lvl games, some heroes become strong because your teammates are always dying in idiotic fashion and some great heroes become 'weak' because ppl can't play them well.
seeker: tp/stop running and stun (so he doesnt get you below 40% hp)/smart teammates in general, he's much like nightstalker; he relies on stupid opponents (no offence if you die to him often t.t)
spiritbreaker: -_- nothing close to imba hero, are you getting charged all the time without noticing? that's just your lack of awareness. He's nothing special. He sucks at farming and he's very reliant on teammates.
enchantress: strong hero but not imba. before she can get guinsoo's or eul's you can tp out. Her impetus hurts like a bitch early on but she shouldnt be getting many kills, just applying pressure and having lane control. Also she's more fragile than you may think despite her heal and ult.
geo: huh? just stomp that weakass. He's only good 1v1 so keep that in mind and focus fire.
nightstalker: tp tp tp right after he nukes you. It should be a while before he can get a basher (since basher first is a retarded build anyway) Think about where you would be going if YOU were the nightstalker. He's usually roaming around neutral creeps during night time so be careful when you jungle.
Stop being a pussy. Leave because of unfair picks? That's ridiculous. DotA may not be perfect but it's balanced enough to the point where the better team wins 99% of the time.
And score really doesn't say much about your skill. Score is way too enemy influenced in DotA. A BW player could have awesome macro against a newb but boasting about 20-0 is as vague as saying 'I MAXED OUT AND OVERRAN HIM' in BW. Shit I remember when I played US pubs years ago when dying even once was disgraceful. US pubs are THAT bad.
I stopped reading that when you insulted me by saying I'm bad at this game. Hi, what do you think I made this thread for? Why do you think I'm asking questions?
Excuse me for not being a pro at the game, like you, and asking a question because I'm frustrated.
Maybe I'm just jumping on the "I don't know how to counter this hero, so it must be imba" bandwagon, or maybe it really is overpowered.
Edit: I don't actually leave because of certain picks. I'd just like to to spite certain people. Yes, I read the rest of your post. asfd
Well, it's the truth that you are bad at this game. It's different from BW, where ppl with poor mechanics who are bad at the game can have a good understanding of the game. In DotA, you need to be able to play at least decently to understand it. I'm sorry. Maybe later when you gain some insight into this game you will look back to this post and just laugh it off and realize that I wasn't launching a personal attack on you.
The heroes you've mentioned are CLEARLY not overpowered. I'm sure someone else will verify this.
Even if you're playing a chaotic pub game, leaving for that reason is
once you have a dependable team behind you, all those heroes you mentioned totally go to shit
and i can't stress having TPs enough three man gank? wait till they use their stuns (don't forget mini-stuns), then TP out. sure, you'll be nearly perma-diabled sometimes and die, but that's probably bad decision making or shitty map awareness on your part.
it's SO cheap and you can pull off TPs in the middle of huge battles. just click the TP and click on a general location near your fountain ;p
On August 10 2007 15:45 lololol wrote: All these heroes you listed are good 1v1 and can't contribute much to a team battle, so you should stick together with your teammates, or have a hero capable of handling them 1v1. Of course, if your teammates feed them, then it's pretty much over, I've had games with NS, where I could just charge against 3-4 enemy heroes, kill the easiest target and run away without dying
On August 10 2007 07:46 {ToT}Strafe wrote: Today I went 17-0 good enough? tomorrow my next attempt. Ill pick razor or something
I'm mostly curious how did they didn't lose/disconnect/whatever when you had 50 kills
I don't play public games. I only play dota-league and then also VIP. Which basically means you need to have over 1200 points, you start with 1000 and get 5 points for every win. So people with over 1200 points at least can play a little bit of dota and are no RPFS. And Still I go 17-0 etc. If I play publics I will never ever die.
Hmmm, because I don';t have time to practise. I play 1 or 2 games a day max. And then not even every day either. This 150 game record dates from all the way back to September.
Alright I played some sniper at your request (pretty much never pick sniper, only play on -random ^^
Since you wanted to learn how to play sniper I will basically give you an analysis of what sniper should do and how he should be played.
First of all, if it weren't for the +range skill, he would suck ass. His scattershot sucks and headshot is decent. Assassinate is good early game but late game it's just a long range finisher. So that means a shitty sniper is one of the worst things to have on your team since he is very item reliant. For example, a viper who didn't get off to a good start can still contribute with his massive slow but sniper only has ministun and assassinate to help.
You need to be good at last hitting. This build may not be the most suitable for you if you aren't comfortable but for me it works extremely well. You can see for yourself that I last hit very diligently (around 100 denies by 30 min mark and twice the kills).
Sniper needs to be built around DPS. More to the point, here's my item build:
starting item: chicken + boots of agi + 2 tangos
I like to have a habit of having of a chicken so I can stay in lane longer. It's usually worth it considering the circlet you would buy instead wouldn't help as much.
Best lane: mid
1) easy to tower hug with long range 2) best lane to harass
You will want observer wards to place on the other side's ramp for 2 reasons:
1) protection from ganks 2) vision for last hitting/harass/assassinate
2 x wraith band or bracer, 1 of each is fine too, they help with early last hitting (sniper has shitty dmg altho godlike animation which I'm sure you know of). I get 2 because it fits nicely into my item slot with my other items.
Lothars is pretty standard on sniper since he is very fragile and slow. He needs to farm but he can't do so without having an escape mechanism wherever he goes. Blink dagger does the same thing but it's difficult to use and has a lower survival rate. Plus the agi/dmg gain is nice.
Whenever you're being ganked: windwalk into trees/around corner and tp out (always have a tp before BoT, I cannot stress this enough).
MKB is your core DPS item. Some people say because the mini-bash doesn't stack with the passive it's stupid but that's a retarded argument. First of all they both proc only 10% of the time and even if they do you don't lose much dmg. Multiple ministun does make a difference. Experience > theorycrafting newbs.
After you farm your MKB, farming should be fast and easy. And you're actually a threat now. So you need to BoT for even better farming and mobility.
Next is SnY. SnY is perhaps the most hated item in DotA. 'It gives a little bit of everything.' But no on sniper it's not. It's pretty standard on him. Let's see:
A good sniper positions himself well and that means a lot of moving around. The ms gain from this build will be a huge asset. And at this point your agi gain should be significant enough to proc maim often enough. Sny > Skadi on sniper. Skadi is a useless piece of shit item that has the worst DPS/gold for such a ridiculously expensive item. (Note I only get skadi in game 3 since terrorblade dropped).
Finally Butterfly. Nuff said. Good for everything.
So you now have 5 'real' items. The last one usually changes depending on game. You should be a farming machine at this point so get whatever you think is most necessary. Usually heart vs spell-based lineup and buriza vs combat-based lineup.
I shouldn't bash your post at all, since it's well written and a lot of effort into it and since I never put any effort into my posts I feel I have no right to say anything But I'm an asshole so I'm going to do it anyway.
Some points were correct. Sniper should be in the middle. It's essential that you can last hit or sniper is completely worthless. A chicken helps a lot to stay in the lane longer, because it can provide new items and consumables which you will need vs a good opponent. Don't buy tangos, buy a healing pot instead. Sniper should be build around attack speed. And yo shouldn't get scatter shot. Having a TP at all times is very important.
Things I disagree with, getting lothars, getting S&Y, getting wraith band, your starting items and your ending items.
I start with chicken+circlet+healing pot. I will last hit the shit out of any hero unless I get nuked to death, which will make it a bit harder, but still able to last hit. I first max out range and then the headshot. Range>head shot. Because you can run back and forth last hitting creeps without getting nuked to death. Second item I will get is boots, so you can run back and forth quicker. After boots, I get a bracer if necessary or even two if forced to. I make midas and then go straight for MKB. By now you are a mean hitting bastard. Get Bot and then HOT. After that it is really up to you. I agree Skadi blows.
Things that blow on sniper. Getting Lothar, Not getting Hot, making S&Y, making butterfly too soon.
Well I guess we don't disagree on much then Just the item build it seems as I max take aim first followed by headshot and rest stats.
You never elaborated on why you disapprove of lothar's and SnY though. As for wraith bands, I feel they are still much hated on even after their price drop. It's really situational. Obviously wraith bands would be better if you are laning against a soft nuke hero(s).
I also have to question your motives for getting midas. Midas is for heroes that have a hard time farming and benefit a lot from the attack speed. Not that sniper doesn't benefit from it but it just slows you down. 2000 gold is a lot at the stage of the game you described O_O
HoT is good on anyone but is it really necessary? It's purely defensive but I think just playing more conservatively with more dmg output is better off
I disapprove on lothar's because I prefer a conservative play which doesn't make you have to escape. I disapprove on it because I prefer to get MKB faster. The way I play dwarf is by standing behind the other's using my range to stay out of trouble. I want to dish out a lot of dmg when I get in and lothar's doesnt add dmg at all, sufficient speed. MKB is 100 times stronger. Later on lothar's will be useless vs good players and you need HOT. Else you'll be around 1400 hp, nuke nuke bye bye. The reason I get midas is because like I said, dwarf is all about attack speed. Midas is a solid 30% attack speed and I just hate treads on him. Also the 2k will be easily rewarded back to you by taking the big creeps that give 160 -+ every time you convert them, that added with the 30% attack speed makes it more than worth it. I'm working out at the moment so I feel a little fuzzy and my post might be very mixed and unclear My apologies
-edit- Sange and yasha is fucking expensive and just blows compared to HOT/Butterfly/w/e
SnY is a good mid game item but if you go SnY u better kill ur opponents alot so that they couldnt have tier 4 item before u otherwise u dead just my 2 cent
Magnataur: 2 tangos/1 circlet/1 gauntlet (1 more circlet if it's ar) work towards perseverance/finish both gauntlets/boots (depends on when I need fountain trips) finish bfury dagger travels
Sven and Leo I'm not so sure about. They're both very similar in that each has a spammable nuke/stun, and so each requires regen of some kind. One has crit and lifesteal, and the other has cleave.
It seems like a basilius would be good on either, as basilius gives both the damage needed to last hit, and the armor needed to withstand the harassment hits taken going in for the last hit, as well as the regen, although static, that's good for being able to use storm bolt more.
Bfury seems good on either, although it seems better on Sven because it stacks. Leo's lifesteal depends on damage, and crit depends on attack speed and damage, so it makes me think a hyperstone at the least would be good along with a heart, so yeah. I'm just curious what you guys think.
I'd probably get bottle on all three of those heroes, and definitely wouldn't get bfury. Also, as far as early game skill build, you should be going stun/stats - do not get any of their passive/aura/buffs until you stun is maxed out. For pubs, I usually go bottle/circlets->bracers(if needed)/blink on all three heroes, then BoT/hood/heart + w/e you want (vanguard, linkens, satanic, etc). Probably BKB on sven by mid game. Other than that, just build your heroes according to the game flow.
Why do you say no completely to bfury? It's a beast on any melee hero that has decent damage output. It makes farming/defending creep waves a joke.
Is there a better thing to spend money on?
Edit: I've never really used a bottle. When do you want it? When do you not want it? I know you can refill it at the fountain, but how does the rune thing work?
On Sniper, Stygian > Buriza Stygian increases damage from your teammates, too. It provides higher dps than Buriza and it has effect on every attack, while with critical there's some luck. The armor reduction increases MKB's 100 damage ministun proc, as well as his headshot proc, while Buriza's Crit never does. Stygian is also much cheaper than Buriza and Buriza is only better if the enemies have a lot of armor - around 20+ without considering cost effectivness, just comparing the items 1vs1... if you consider cost effectivness Stygian is always better.
When the bottle is empty you use it on the rune(just like on the fountain to refill it) and it will store the rune for a few minutes, if you don't use it manually, it will activate when the time runs out. After the rune is used up, the bottle will be 2/3 full.
why would you get BF on heroes that already have massive cleave dmg? Don't you think it would be better to up your HP and attack speed? get hot on every single one of those heroes rpf.
I made 3 HoTs on Leoric once. 5k hp <3 Not to mention the opposing team nuked me all the time (no idea why lol) After I bashed 2 down and got killed, I revived with full hp and finished the rest off with the team. Was a rofl game
On August 12 2007 16:40 rpf wrote: Why do you say no completely to bfury? It's a beast on any melee hero that has decent damage output. It makes farming/defending creep waves a joke.
Is there a better thing to spend money on?
Edit: I've never really used a bottle. When do you want it? When do you not want it? I know you can refill it at the fountain, but how does the rune thing work?
note that i suck at dota but
the general consensus is that bfury gives you too little for the $ it's worth, and there are better alternatives almost always, hence, yes there is a better thing to spend money on as alreayd mentioned
as for the bottle.. i love it on almost every hero, it's just soo nice now if only runes would actually spawn at the 2;00 multiple minute mark 100% of the time, it would be even nicer
p.s. my turn to ask a question is there a way to get the board to only display your -di and the time elapsed? without all the scores that i don't care about.
On August 12 2007 16:40 rpf wrote: Why do you say no completely to bfury? It's a beast on any melee hero that has decent damage output. It makes farming/defending creep waves a joke.
Is there a better thing to spend money on?
Edit: I've never really used a bottle. When do you want it? When do you not want it? I know you can refill it at the fountain, but how does the rune thing work?
note that i suck at dota but
the general consensus is that bfury gives you too little for the $ it's worth, and there are better alternatives almost always, hence, yes there is a better thing to spend money on as alreayd mentioned
as for the bottle.. i love it on almost every hero, it's just soo nice now if only runes would actually spawn at the 2;00 multiple minute mark 100% of the time, it would be even nicer
p.s. my turn to ask a question is there a way to get the board to only display your -di and the time elapsed? without all the scores that i don't care about.
Runes ALWAYS spawn every 2 minutes, except when another rune is already present. Time elapsed is in the resource field, wood is minutes and food is seconds and -di shows in the small board that's always visible.
That's not true. Runes do NOT spawn every 2 minutes. However, if they do spawn, it will be every 2 minutes. This is really apparent in -rd games when there is only 1 rune at the 2 min mark, instead of one on each side of the river.
And yes I have played it extensively, and yes I will beat you unless you take DotA way too seriously, such as Ack1027 with his 30 600+ word posts in this thread.
Anyways, as far as bfury goes, it seems dumb to buy an item like that when it does little other than farm better. I won't lie--bfury on sven or magnataur is great, but in all honesty it's perfect on magnataur. You want the damage, you need the regen (mp specifically), and the cleave not only stacks, but works with your ult and empower (dagger/ult to pull a group to you with empower on that does massive damage in an AoE to all the heroes you pulled to you).
Other than that, I'd rather just buy a reaver. I never saw the point in buying a farming item when the idea of the game is to kill your opponents. Yes, killing creeps is important, but not as important as killing another player.
With that said, I'd think going hyperstone --> hot would be great on Leoric, seeing as you need IAS for the crit, and damage for the lifesteal as well as to boost your crit.
On August 13 2007 03:59 Heen wrote: That's not true. Runes do NOT spawn every 2 minutes. However, if they do spawn, it will be every 2 minutes. This is really apparent in -rd games when there is only 1 rune at the 2 min mark, instead of one on each side of the river.
LOLOLOL, there can never be two runes at the same time, wtf is that crap you're talking about, where the hell did I say there can be two runes at the same, can you read? AS I ALREADY POSTED runes spawn every 2 minute interval, if there is no rune on the map, ALWAYS!
Alright, somebody PM'd me and requested help on Spiritbreaker so here I go.
Spiritbreaker is a disable-based damage dealer. There's a misconception that he's a tank but that's simply not the case. His str gain is subpar and all of his skills are offensive. Thus he should be played as such and not a wannabe tank. A real tanker would be bristleback or dragon knight.
Skill order: bash/charge/bash/charge/bash/nether strike/bash/charge/charge followed by empowering haste
Some people go bash/empowering haste to get easier last hitting but then you are less of a threat and have less to contribute ganking-wise.
Best lane: bottom for sent/top for scourge
1) tower is close, aka you will be 'less' owned by 2 ranged or any other mean combo that know what they're doing 2) chasing distance if you get the opportunity to kill
Soloing is viable but not recommended. You're better off with a ranged partner so you can actually get some last hits in.
I'll try a different format this time for
Item build:
starting: RoR + tangos (It's funny because I've always played barathrum on -random so I've always been able to buy a chicken but if you're picking I guess you have to borrow someone else's).
early game: boots + 3 bracers and a tp scroll obviously
Spiritbreaker is one of the manliest heroes. He needs to dive into the frontlines of a fight and wreck havoc. Sometimes that means bypassing towers or ignoring enemies to finish a fleeing one. You'll need to soak up a lot of dmg. Hence the 3 bracers.
mid game: BoT + hyperstone
BoT is an obvious choice. It gives you map control as well as the much needed +speed.
Hyperstone will add tons to your DPS. Spiritbreaker is one of the best heroes to get hyperstone on since there aren't many str heroes that benefit as much from attack speed. You have to remember that you are getting +dmg from 2 passive skills. You do more damage than listed. Adding more dmg is less cost effective. Which means MKB and the likes are not smart choices. Oh bashers are also unnecessary minus some rare exceptions I guess.
late game: BKB + SnY
Now you're a mean hitting bastard but you need to be able to do your job without getting disabled. Any team that isn't a complete joke will have a few disables that can mess you up easily. BKB is a must on spiritbreaker. Switching the order between BKB and hyperstone will also be okay but I usually get hyperstone first since the fights are usually on a smaller scale at that stage, which means less disables.
SnY is a great addition because you wil get a lot of free hits during your charge + netherstrike combo (ie. maim will always proc, pretty much) and needless to say you get extra dmg/hp/ms (dmg again)/as
After that I usually go heart of tarassque.
Some heroes have very standard item builds (blink dagger on sand king, necronomicon on beastmaster come to mind). However, others will always be open to debate.You may have noticed but DotA players are very stubborn about item builds. They will often stick to the same build for a long time. I'm also guilty of this I must say. You can try this build and see how it works. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then you have to find which part of it you are not liking and fix it to suit your gameplay better.
game 1, red hp obsidian was crying for help at top so I assumed he meant bash the sniper so he doesn't get assassinated (had to mention this, otherwise I look like an idiot going after sniper for no reason)
game 2, frustrating to say the least but I had to keep everyone focused since I was somewhat the team leader
On August 13 2007 03:59 Heen wrote: That's not true. Runes do NOT spawn every 2 minutes. However, if they do spawn, it will be every 2 minutes. This is really apparent in -rd games when there is only 1 rune at the 2 min mark, instead of one on each side of the river.
LOLOLOL, there can never be two runes at the same time, wtf is that crap you're talking about, where the hell did I say there can be two runes at the same, can you read? AS I ALREADY POSTED runes spawn every 2 minute interval, if there is no rune on the map, ALWAYS!
Ok then, my apologies. No need to be an obnoxious kid about it though
I'd love it if you'd play some Juggernaut and give us your thoughts on him. My friends and I always debate how to play him, mostly because he needs a bunch of things.
He needs attack speed and damage for his crit (higher crits and more crits per second), as well as good mana regen/mana pool to be able to use fury, ward, and omni. You also want to have fast move speed to chase with fury to force them away from creeps so you can ult.
I'd think a pair of bracers, a blfy, and travels would solve most of those problems, but I'm just curious what you guys think.
On August 13 2007 15:01 rpf wrote: Heen, I love your replays. Keep them coming.
I'd love it if you'd play some Juggernaut and give us your thoughts on him. My friends and I always debate how to play him, mostly because he needs a bunch of things.
He needs attack speed and damage for his crit (higher crits and more crits per second), as well as good mana regen/mana pool to be able to use fury, ward, and omni. You also want to have fast move speed to chase with fury to force them away from creeps so you can ult.
I'd think a pair of bracers, a blfy, and travels would solve most of those problems, but I'm just curious what you guys think.
When i play Jugg I personally just go pure attack speed. Because, once you break a certain amount of attack speed (unfortunatly i dont know the exact amount) When you pop his Omni slash, he will attack between everyone one of his attacks. So instead of having an 8 hit thing, its actually 16. Makes him a big hitter when all of there guys are running away.
On August 13 2007 15:01 rpf wrote: Heen, I love your replays. Keep them coming.
I'd love it if you'd play some Juggernaut and give us your thoughts on him. My friends and I always debate how to play him, mostly because he needs a bunch of things.
He needs attack speed and damage for his crit (higher crits and more crits per second), as well as good mana regen/mana pool to be able to use fury, ward, and omni. You also want to have fast move speed to chase with fury to force them away from creeps so you can ult.
I'd think a pair of bracers, a blfy, and travels would solve most of those problems, but I'm just curious what you guys think.
A funny strat is going 3 Battlefuries, Butterfly and Cuirass, this way you can get massive splash damage from your ultimate
On August 13 2007 03:59 Heen wrote: That's not true. Runes do NOT spawn every 2 minutes. However, if they do spawn, it will be every 2 minutes. This is really apparent in -rd games when there is only 1 rune at the 2 min mark, instead of one on each side of the river.
LOLOLOL, there can never be two runes at the same time, wtf is that crap you're talking about, where the hell did I say there can be two runes at the same, can you read? AS I ALREADY POSTED runes spawn every 2 minute interval, if there is no rune on the map, ALWAYS!
Ok then, my apologies. No need to be an obnoxious kid about it though
You're obnoxious when denying something you don't know about.
On August 13 2007 15:01 rpf wrote: Heen, I love your replays. Keep them coming.
I'd love it if you'd play some Juggernaut and give us your thoughts on him. My friends and I always debate how to play him, mostly because he needs a bunch of things.
He needs attack speed and damage for his crit (higher crits and more crits per second), as well as good mana regen/mana pool to be able to use fury, ward, and omni. You also want to have fast move speed to chase with fury to force them away from creeps so you can ult.
I'd think a pair of bracers, a blfy, and travels would solve most of those problems, but I'm just curious what you guys think.
When i play Jugg I personally just go pure attack speed. Because, once you break a certain amount of attack speed (unfortunatly i dont know the exact amount) When you pop his Omni slash, he will attack between everyone one of his attacks. So instead of having an 8 hit thing, its actually 16. Makes him a big hitter when all of there guys are running away.
I would personally go straight BoTs on Juggernaut, it allows his Battlefury to become a beast, and it also allows him to gank more often. His ward is very useful in a team battle, around 12-15. Helps you survive as well, along with the 2-3 bracers that you would have.
yeah but if you put it in the back, then they have to go through your army to get it It isn't that hard to keep it alive for at least 4-5 seconds (maybe more) which is 16-20% hp
On August 13 2007 05:05 Romance_us wrote: Dota is very overrated.
And yes I have played it extensively, and yes I will beat you unless you take DotA way too seriously, such as Ack1027 with his 30 600+ word posts in this thread.
lol this 16 year old immature fag was one of the people who came into my vent when I was recruiting people.
One of the most selfish dota players, has no sense of team work and spends way more time chatting than actually playing. He was going to play in our first preseason league match, never showed up, so we won handily without him and banned him from vent and channel and told him we lost. He kept apologizing but said we take dota too seriously hahaha.
Let go of the grudge romance you aren't that good at dota.
people play it for fun, you can't overrate something if you really enjoy it Ack is one of the people w/ most expeirence in dota from tl.net so he has every right to say what he does in this thread
On August 14 2007 07:03 BlueRoyaL wrote: haha, i remember when i heard about that ;]
overrated as in what?
people play it for fun, you can't overrate something if you really enjoy it Ack is one of the people w/ most expeirence in dota from tl.net so he has every right to say what he does in this thread
don't get so pompy guy
Yo where you been lately.
And I just remembered the other day you are and.beta forgot you were hangook saram yo - _-v
Oh, and I wanted to hear more about how to avoid dying. Is it just intuition to avoid ganks? Or is it necessary on heroes like sniper, zeus, drow, etc., to get a lothar's or dagger so that you have the escape mechanism?
Lothar's is not just an escape mechanism. It's the perfect tool for ganking. Take Ursa, easily one of the best 1v1 heroes (imo. I also think Bane Elemental is very-very good in 1v1, but that's just me. We can agree on Ursa). My build with him (mind you, I'm no expert) is 2 bracers, BoT, Lothar's. Ganking soloing heroes / forest is just too good opportunity to miss.
There are different ways to survive on different heroes.
For example, if I'm viper and I'm soloing bottom as sentinel I'll buy a set of observer wards and put them by the river 1 at a time which will last me a good 12 minutes. That makes it extremely hard for scourge to gank me unless it's at night time and they use tp scrolls so the missing call doesn't get to me in time.
The idea of getting things like lothars and blink dagger is so that you can farm in places that you would otherwise not go. Well, Lothar's which is much less popular than blink dagger is almost purely defensive while dagger goes both ways (more offensive though).
Also what I do every game is check the heroes that can disrupt channeling and if there are only 1 or 2 heroes all I have to do is look out for those on the minimap since tp'ing out with fast reaction will save you.
Another thing is sensing when your opponents are playing differently. This, I think helps more against good players. Good players are less likely to do stupid stuff. So if I'm vs a queen of pain and I have full hp and she blinks in and ss's me, I tp out right away since I'm almost certain some heroes are going to pop out of no where. Sudden aggressiveness is a common sign of ganks.
On August 14 2007 16:27 Heen wrote: Hey Ack, next time let's play on GGC if that's alright with you.
Hamachi = fail, GG works fine. Although largely dependent on host.
I got lc host if that's okay with you.
GGC is fine but for like 1-2 of my clanmates they have lots of issues with it so we usually run hamachi or ggc, however if neither of them are on we can just ggc I guess.
On August 14 2007 16:27 Heen wrote: Hey Ack, next time let's play on GGC if that's alright with you.
Hamachi = fail, GG works fine. Although largely dependent on host.
I got lc host if that's okay with you.
GGC is fine but for like 1-2 of my clanmates they have lots of issues with it so we usually run hamachi or ggc, however if neither of them are on we can just ggc I guess.
Well you're host was 'okay' last time but I had a hard time last hitting ~_~
Lothars seriously sucks against decent opponents, dagger > lothars. Ursa usually goes some bracers/RoRs to survive/stay in lane early, then dagger and mass hearts(it's the best item for him, upping both his damage and survivability by a lot). With the recent change to melee, vladimirs can also be beneficial in some situations, because of his insane damage output.
yeah usually bd>lothars for most cases, it's a lot cheaper too i'd say bd>lothars even for ursa, i see a lotta people getting lothars for ursa and it makes me sad =( you wont really see ursa in serious games but seriously, you wouldnt be trying to get a lothars for him, you would never have time to farm what you really need which are health items
gem/wards and your invis fail =(
if you keep dying, i would say you should keep a closer eye to your mini map. map sense will help save you a lot, and will help you save your allies and go in for ganks etc it's nice when you have a team where you dont always have to say "B B !!!" or "GANK!!! *ping ping*" and instead they know right away what they're doing because they have good mapsense
Would anyone like to explain to me how Skadi is a piece of shit item?
Skadi isn't necessarily gotten primarily for the DPS; you get it for the stat bonuses and the slow, then you tack on your DPS item after the Skadi (or before, w/e).
Blink > Lothars on almost everything. Lothars is countered by a Sent ward, or anything with true sight. Blink can be used whenever Lothars can.
It's bad if you rush it, except a few select heroes [ like qop ], but other than that it's only drawback is that it costs a lot.
Skadi is a perfectly fine item in my book. Especially because it doesn't count as a orb on ranged heroes [ again with the exception of some orbs like desolation ]
Next is SnY. SnY is perhaps the most hated item in DotA. 'It gives a little bit of everything.' But no on sniper it's not. It's pretty standard on him. Let's see:
A good sniper positions himself well and that means a lot of moving around. The ms gain from this build will be a huge asset. And at this point your agi gain should be significant enough to proc maim often enough. Sny > Skadi on sniper. Skadi is a useless piece of shit item that has the worst DPS/gold for such a ridiculously expensive item. (Note I only get skadi in game 3 since terrorblade dropped).
Right here. And this is after I type up about a page explaining why Skadi > SnY.
Not many items are absolutely useless with the exception of a few like blademail. I'll maintain my stance that Skadi is crap on most heroes.
I'm getting tired of forumcrafting to defend my style of play really. No one wins here. It's pretty much your word or mine.
DotA is still an unexplored game and I am certain that the majority of us are in for a surprise. The same thing will happen with DotA as it did with BW I assume. People will rule out many possibilities as not viable or newb only to look like an ass later on when a pro demonstrates it. I don't even support the 'if a pro does it, it's good' argument but it seems to make most ppl happy since they can't argue with someone who is undoubtedly better than them. *cough* cowards
Who would've thought 3 Hatch before pool in TvZ 'could' work? Or 14 Nexus in 2v2?
I seem to recall arguing necromastery + shadowraze is good a while back. Then someone stepped in and bashed it saying it's too 'pub.'
Or SnY being utter trash, plenty of excellent players get it on various heroes.
I don't think it should be necessary to link a replay or some sort of proof to back up my statements. Try it and decide for yourself. I say this because I am not easily persuaded myself.
Heen, I got a question for you regarding Spiritbreaker. Today I was like, after this ~2 month of playing DotA, trying out the heroes I've never had the chance to use before (didn't /random or pick them deliberately yet). One of these heroes were the Spiritbreaker, and I've grown very fond of him I think
But, in the game I played him (didn't read your post before), when I bought BoT, I got trashed by people in the game "Wtf u need BoT for, you get max -ms with Emp. Haste lvl 4 and Charge of Darkness if you have Treads". Any thoughts / comments on that?
And a funny addition, I used a similar build to yours (something like RoR + 2 tangos, later 2 Bracer, BoT -> SnY -> Hyperstone -> BKB). Funny
On August 17 2007 02:40 Naib wrote: Heen, I got a question for you regarding Spiritbreaker. Today I was like, after this ~2 month of playing DotA, trying out the heroes I've never had the chance to use before (didn't /random or pick them deliberately yet). One of these heroes were the Spiritbreaker, and I've grown very fond of him I think
But, in the game I played him (didn't read your post before), when I bought BoT, I got trashed by people in the game "Wtf u need BoT for, you get max -ms with Emp. Haste lvl 4 and Charge of Darkness if you have Treads". Any thoughts / comments on that?
And a funny addition, I used a similar build to yours (something like RoR + 2 tangos, later 2 Bracer, BoT -> SnY -> Hyperstone -> BKB). Funny
Yeah...people who say that are noobs who don't realize how the bonus damage is done on SB. The bonus damage is done before the actual hit is landed on hero by SB, so with Charge your first bonus damage is/can be monstrous. With that said, level 4 Charge + BoT+Empowering Haste means you can not only do a big opening hit but it also means you can charge from very close and reach 500+ ms quickly, potentially making SB a very scary ganker.
Personally, I wouldnt even make an SnY and just drop a BKB/MoM on SB, BoTs are more than enough.
On August 13 2007 05:05 Romance_us wrote: Dota is very overrated.
And yes I have played it extensively, and yes I will beat you unless you take DotA way too seriously, such as Ack1027 with his 30 600+ word posts in this thread.
lol this 16 year old immature fag was one of the people who came into my vent when I was recruiting people.
One of the most selfish dota players, has no sense of team work and spends way more time chatting than actually playing. He was going to play in our first preseason league match, never showed up, so we won handily without him and banned him from vent and channel and told him we lost. He kept apologizing but said we take dota too seriously hahaha.
Let go of the grudge romance you aren't that good at dota.
16 but more mature than you :D
No sense of teamwork? Yea that's why I play IHCS. Home of the dota players with no team work...
There is no grudge, you're just an idiot. Me being good or not at dota is irrelevant. You automatically assume that anything I say towards you has to do with some "grudge" from being kicked off a mediocre dota team. Good try though!
PS: How you handled that situation was beyond any level of immatureness I have ever reached.
I tried to handle this on BNet and then even PM on this site, and you wouldn't respond, but now for some reason you insult me in front of the majority of TL.net. Attention whore or are you just bad at handling your problems?
On August 17 2007 08:54 lovetramy wrote: SB is a fucking cheap hero tbh -_- with BOT and SnY u have +73 dmg or smthing . free relic ! then u can rape almost everyone 1vs1 . perfect for pubs
In -em he's a bitch.
Ack, I'd really love to play with you some time. When are you around and on what gateway? If you don't want to, I'd understand. I'm not huge fan of playing noobs either.
On August 17 2007 08:54 lovetramy wrote: SB is a fucking cheap hero tbh -_- with BOT and SnY u have +73 dmg or smthing . free relic ! then u can rape almost everyone 1vs1 . perfect for pubs
In -em he's a bitch.
Ack, I'd really love to play with you some time. When are you around and on what gateway? If you don't want to, I'd understand. I'm not huge fan of playing noobs either.
Well I'll be a college freshman soon and classes start so for the next week or so I'll be moving in/adjusting but I'm usually on like 8PM-Early morning hours EST every night. I play on Azeroth[East] but if you got vent I'm probably on the majority of the day. account: JLIG.Vicious channel: Clan JLIG
Currently, after the recent map optimizations greater bash now works on images. Just get a Manta Style and have fun It also had it's countermeasure to spamming stop removed, so this one will practically make you proc greater bash much more often(but you won't be doing your normal attack damage, just the emporing haste and greater bash damage). These are gonna be dealt with in the next version ofc(although the stop spam for all heroes that have triggered activating at the start of an attack abilities currently has no 100% solution, but it will be enough of a fix)
Hm, what do you guys think about tide and sand king?
On Tide, I figure:
-dagger to better place ult (not really sure since the AoE is...fucking huge) -hyperstone (higher number of AoE attack procs/sec.) -vanguard?
on SK I always go dagger for his ult, but I'm thinking a BKB is in order? Otherwise in group battles people know to stun you when you blink/stun them.
BTW, I always go dual bracer/basilius on heroes that those two. I generally go basilius on any melee hero with a spammable, like gush or SK's...stun thingy.
Vanguard on Tide -> NO, only one damage block skill can proc per hit, they don't stack, so you'll get ~5 more damage reduction on average, which is useless, since you'll already reduce the creeps damage to 1 and it ain't exactly cost effective considering your other options against hero damage. Getting multiple vanguards is also quite ineffective on any hero.
On August 29 2007 16:08 rpf wrote: Hm, what do you guys think about tide and sand king?
On Tide, I figure:
-dagger to better place ult (not really sure since the AoE is...fucking huge) -hyperstone (higher number of AoE attack procs/sec.) -vanguard?
on SK I always go dagger for his ult, but I'm thinking a BKB is in order? Otherwise in group battles people know to stun you when you blink/stun them.
BTW, I always go dual bracer/basilius on heroes that those two. I generally go basilius on any melee hero with a spammable, like gush or SK's...stun thingy.
DoE is a good item if you can afford it for escape purposes, or, when you need to jump into the heat of battle and interrupt like 2-3 channeling spells (With Tide I mean). And yes, 2 bracer, BoT, DoE, BKB is a very common bo. on Sand King.
Lately, I've been playing a lot with Anub'Arak (Nerubian Assasin). I found this build to be very viable (my friend told me the basics about him). Ring of Basi, then 3 circlets into Nulls, BoT or Treads (depends on if I need the atk. speed or not), then Perseverance -> Battle Fury. This makes you an excellent early gamer, if you pick a lane with an opponent that needs his mana to be good, you can pretty much screw him over entirely with this regen you get.
When I play with my friend, he picks Ezalor to support me with Chakra, then I don't need to buy Basi, and open with 3 Circlets. He can be deadly in early-game, and if you farm up enough you'll be deadly later on, too
I've recently started playing DOTA and whoa holy shit these items are complicated... I spent like 10 minutes trying to find where you buy a "ring of health" while constantly being badgered by my teammates
it's not a game for the faint hearted and for those who can't take criticism because if you fuck up in a game with me i will berate you the entire time non stop
So go fuck yourself, then. Everyone is new at some point or another, so if you're going to be a condescending prick, well then...oh wait, you fit right in with the majority of DotA players.
"What? You're new? I was born knowing how to play."
What you join a game without learning some basics first? People want to play an actual game not have to baby someone for an entire game. Go look online, learn a little bit, talk to people then join a game.
some people (like me) learn by playing terr13..there's no need to be an asshole about teaching new people. it's not like dota's so hard that you can't teach someone in game to not suck in about 5 minutes. just teach them recipes, location of the 4 other shops, tell them which heroes to avoid in this game, which items to get and how to use their skills. takes a few minutes if they're not retarded.
being good is a whole other story, but if you're playing pubs that's not really a concern
On August 31 2007 10:02 JeeJee wrote: some people (like me) learn by playing terr13..
dat`z y u r nub shinbi lolz!1
the best way to learn how to play is with people in the middle or so, regardless of their endless bitching. playing with noobs won't do shit and experts will do things that won't make any sense :{
On August 31 2007 10:02 JeeJee wrote: some people (like me) learn by playing terr13..
dat`z y u r nub shinbi lolz!1
the best way to learn how to play is with people in the middle or so, regardless of their endless bitching. playing with noobs won't do shit and experts will do things that won't make any sense :{
On August 31 2007 10:02 JeeJee wrote: some people (like me) learn by playing terr13..
dat`z y u r nub shinbi lolz!1
the best way to learn how to play is with people in the middle or so, regardless of their endless bitching. playing with noobs won't do shit and experts will do things that won't make any sense :{
I'd like to add that analyzing the actions of other players who aren't too far above you in skill really helps, as it forces you to think through their thought process, and that helps solidify certain things.
On August 31 2007 09:54 terr13 wrote: What you join a game without learning some basics first? People want to play an actual game not have to baby someone for an entire game. Go look online, learn a little bit, talk to people then join a game.
All I needed to know where that one hidden shop was, I asked and they blew up. I had like 75% of all the denies for the team....
Game is so stupidly easy to learn (hero wise), but the fucking items are still a bitch to all find for me
Those are some of the basics, and you can just watch the map. If a noob asks me in game I'll tell them, but if they're feeding and obviously don't know what they're doing I'm mad as hell. Whenever I see people go SnY I tend to be a little bit on guard, and then I realize they're Clinkz or Lucifer, and I want them to just leave right there. And then there's those noobs who think its beneficial to get 1 point in every skill when they only need 1 skill like Juggernaut. They should just spend the 15 minutes to learn something about the game before even joining and wasting the time of all the players. My friends and i have already resigned to the fact that every game will have 2-3 noobs, and we just hope they're not on the same time or its already over.
On August 30 2007 13:40 SoleSteeler wrote: I've recently started playing DOTA and whoa holy shit these items are complicated... I spent like 10 minutes trying to find where you buy a "ring of health" while constantly being badgered by my teammates
Going to go cry myself to sleep now!
It's ok, HnR)Insane, Zelniq, and ilovecats badgered me every game for like the first 15 games.
paper also, he's a brutal slave driver when it comes to items.
On August 30 2007 15:07 rpf wrote: So go fuck yourself, then. Everyone is new at some point or another, so if you're going to be a condescending prick, well then...oh wait, you fit right in with the majority of DotA players.
"What? You're new? I was born knowing how to play."
You're so touchy and defensive about everything rpf it's actually kind of sadly amusing to watch. You've GOTTA have massive self-confidence issues.
On August 30 2007 15:07 rpf wrote: So go fuck yourself, then. Everyone is new at some point or another, so if you're going to be a condescending prick, well then...oh wait, you fit right in with the majority of DotA players.
"What? You're new? I was born knowing how to play."
You're so touchy and defensive about everything rpf it's actually kind of sadly amusing to watch. You've GOTTA have massive self-confidence issues.
But rpf is right; most DotA players are pricks; the higher-level players make up 90% of GM players -_-;;;
Anyways ...
I'm trying to get better with Crystal Maiden (since in -xl the other team ALWAYS takes Silencer and Beastmaster -_-) and my builds are like so:
Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Stats Freezing Field Freezing Field Brilliance Aura x 4 Freezing Field Stats x 9
Yeah; I usually lane with Slayer or (rarely) Morphling so I think maxing Frostbite and Frost Nova is great for EZ nuke spamming for kills
My item build is: RoB (Slayer usually gets a Headdress) - Mana regeneration early on Bracers if needed - HP + extra Mana BKB - So I don't get pwned by stuns when I fire up my ultimate Hood - Lowers damage from a crapload of sources Blink Dagger - BKB, Blink in, Freezing Field. Bye, bye, other team.
Is there anything else I need? Or is this skill/item build sufficient to play a powerful Crystal Maiden? I was thinking about getting Linken's instead of Hood; usually I only see one (rarely two) stuns targetted at me and I think the extra stat boost would help instead of spell reduction. Or would it? -_-;;;
Blink before BKB or Hood. Hood only if you need it, and you forgot you're boots. Don't get brilliance aura, especially that late in the game since you won't need it that much, stats would serve you better.
On August 30 2007 15:07 rpf wrote: So go fuck yourself, then. Everyone is new at some point or another, so if you're going to be a condescending prick, well then...oh wait, you fit right in with the majority of DotA players.
"What? You're new? I was born knowing how to play."
You're so touchy and defensive about everything rpf it's actually kind of sadly amusing to watch. You've GOTTA have massive self-confidence issues.
I wasn't defending myself there, but good try. Maybe next time.
On August 30 2007 15:07 rpf wrote: So go fuck yourself, then. Everyone is new at some point or another, so if you're going to be a condescending prick, well then...oh wait, you fit right in with the majority of DotA players.
"What? You're new? I was born knowing how to play."
You're so touchy and defensive about everything rpf it's actually kind of sadly amusing to watch. You've GOTTA have massive self-confidence issues.
But rpf is right; most DotA players are pricks; the higher-level players make up 90% of GM players -_-;;;
Anyways ...
I'm trying to get better with Crystal Maiden (since in -xl the other team ALWAYS takes Silencer and Beastmaster -_-) and my builds are like so:
Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Frostbite Frost Nova Stats Freezing Field Freezing Field Brilliance Aura x 4 Freezing Field Stats x 9
Yeah; I usually lane with Slayer or (rarely) Morphling so I think maxing Frostbite and Frost Nova is great for EZ nuke spamming for kills
My item build is: RoB (Slayer usually gets a Headdress) - Mana regeneration early on Bracers if needed - HP + extra Mana BKB - So I don't get pwned by stuns when I fire up my ultimate Hood - Lowers damage from a crapload of sources Blink Dagger - BKB, Blink in, Freezing Field. Bye, bye, other team.
Is there anything else I need? Or is this skill/item build sufficient to play a powerful Crystal Maiden? I was thinking about getting Linken's instead of Hood; usually I only see one (rarely two) stuns targetted at me and I think the extra stat boost would help instead of spell reduction. Or would it? -_-;;;
Constructive criticism:
1. Don't get RoB on CM. Why? RoB gives you:
damage armor fixed mana regen
Melee spammers take the RoB over the Sobi because they need the damage to help last hit, whereas you have the advantage of having ranged attacks over having to run in to last hit. While a melee spammer runs in to last hit, they're likely to take a couple hits of harassment from the ranged heroes they're laning against, and thus the armor helps to mitigate that. Most melee heroes are not int, and thus will naturally have low int, and thus won't benefit from a Sobi much, hence RoB. Melee heroes have a harder time pushing towers because they spend more time in range of the tower, but not able to actually hit the tower because they have to run in and out of the tower's range, and so turning the aura of the RoB on when pushing and keeping it off when not pushing makes the RoB an incredible first item for a melee spammer like Sven, Leoric, or BM.
Conclusion: Get RoB on melee spammers *only.* Get Sobi on everyone else that needs the regen. When you have ~30 int, the regen is higher than what a RoB gives you. Remember, 0.65 is not 65%.
2. You're getting hood without saying why. Are you getting it just because? If so, that's a bad reason. You should only get hood if the other team has formidable nukers. I look at how many nukes I have to be afraid of on the other team. If you think it's needed, build it first. Otherwise, skip it. It'll only delay your other core items.
3. Dagger before BKB is probably a better order.
4. Don't get brilliance aura. It isn't a modifier, it's just a fixed amount. You'll get better from a Sobi. Max Frostbite/Nova, then get your ult/stats. Get the aura for your last four levels.
So, start out with a Sobi/tangos (I get two sets, but it's up to you). Then finish a pair of bracers while getting boots, then work on a dagger, and then BKB.
A lot of that is situational, though. I'd rush BoT if they're really pushing your towers hard. Otherwise get them last. You may not need the bracers, either. Getting the BKB might give you all of the health you need.
Just my two cents. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I think there are better/more efficient ways to play CM.
On September 02 2007 15:32 terr13 wrote: Blink before BKB or Hood. Hood only if you need it, and you forgot you're boots. Don't get brilliance aura, especially that late in the game since you won't need it that much, stats would serve you better.
Haha I left out Boots intentionally because I assumed that every hero gets it (later BoTs)
I'll try getting Stats in lieu of Brilliance Aura and grab it last? I mean, Brilliance Aura is actually worth getting now since it stacks with other mana regeneration items.
On September 02 2007 16:52 rpf wrote: Constructive criticism:
1. Don't get RoB on CM. Why? RoB gives you:
damage armor fixed mana regen
Melee spammers take the RoB over the Sobi because they need the damage to help last hit, whereas you have the advantage of having ranged attacks over having to run in to last hit. While a melee spammer runs in to last hit, they're likely to take a couple hits of harassment from the ranged heroes they're laning against, and thus the armor helps to mitigate that. Most melee heroes are not int, and thus will naturally have low int, and thus won't benefit from a Sobi much, hence RoB. Melee heroes have a harder time pushing towers because they spend more time in range of the tower, but not able to actually hit the tower because they have to run in and out of the tower's range, and so turning the aura of the RoB on when pushing and keeping it off when not pushing makes the RoB an incredible first item for a melee spammer like Sven, Leoric, or BM.
Conclusion: Get RoB on melee spammers *only.* Get Sobi on everyone else that needs the regen. When you have ~30 int, the regen is higher than what a RoB gives you. Remember, 0.65 is not 65%.
2. You're getting hood without saying why. Are you getting it just because? If so, that's a bad reason. You should only get hood if the other team has formidable nukers. I look at how many nukes I have to be afraid of on the other team. If you think it's needed, build it first. Otherwise, skip it. It'll only delay your other core items.
3. Dagger before BKB is probably a better order.
4. Don't get brilliance aura. It isn't a modifier, it's just a fixed amount. You'll get better from a Sobi. Max Frostbite/Nova, then get your ult/stats. Get the aura for your last four levels.
So, start out with a Sobi/tangos (I get two sets, but it's up to you). Then finish a pair of bracers while getting boots, then work on a dagger, and then BKB.
A lot of that is situational, though. I'd rush BoT if they're really pushing your towers hard. Otherwise get them last. You may not need the bracers, either. Getting the BKB might give you all of the health you need.
Just my two cents. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying I think there are better/more efficient ways to play CM.
Sobi Mask and Tangoes ... makes sense. I never really cared about the % mana regeneration; I always thought the higher the number, the more mana you'd regenerate ^_^_^_^
I see in a lot of matches that I die when I get Blink Dagger first T_T I blink in, turn on my ultimate, I get stunned by Sand King, Epicenter, and usually at this point I also get a couple of other spells hit at me, so I still think it's wiser to get BKB before Blink Dagger. Good suggestion, though.
Yeah, Bracers are needed if I'm having a bit of trouble fighting and I need some extra health.
On September 02 2007 21:50 new_construct wrote: hood sucks, don't get it for any hero, a completely defensive item it is going to draw u back even more
Yeah, but when there's like 30,000 spells flying at you as soon as you turn on Freezing Field you're going to want to stay alive through that after the ten seconds of BKB is up -_-;;;
Hm, I've come to a revelation: I always play heroes based on their auto attack, not their abilities. This works great for heroes like Leoric, Tide, etc., but for heroes like Zeus, Rhasta, etc., you should focus on their abilities.
And thus comes the time where I have to stop stat-whoring (I'm honestly obsessed with stat items). I've started trying to play heroes that use scepter more, like Rhasta and whatnot, but I have a couple thoughts.
Many heroes that can use a scepter benefit greatly from a refresher after. seeing as at that level you'll have the mana to double ult. Rhasta with 24 wards, anyone?
So this requires:
pers oblivion soul booster staff
Now, my usual buy at the beginning of a game like this is sobi/tangos. I get the sobi for the regen so I can spam my nuke at L2 (hero L3), and tangos to stay in my lane. But I'm thinking, what if I delay the soul booster a little bit, and go for the pers early on? It's a great early item, as that damage is great for last hitting, not to mention the regen for both hp and mp would keep me in my lane for quite some time.
But doing so would delay the soul booster, which deprives me of necessary health to stay alive. Regen does shit at keeping you alive if you're getting ganked. You need health to stay alive, not regen.
So I'm curious what you guys think. Just get the perseverance after scepter when you're building the refresher? Or should you go for it first?
Here's what I'd normally do on a hero liek Zeus, Slayer, Rhasta, etc.:
Sobi/2 tangos (4 uses) boots/point booster (depending which seems to be more of a priority) vit booster energy booster (soul booster completed) staff/BoT (depending on which seems to be more of a priority) finish oblivion finish pers refresher
Heen, if you have any notable reps of other heroes you haven't released, I'd love to see them. I loved your sniper replays.
I think the oblivion staff is heavily underrated. It's a good item, even if it is a little expensive. Perseverance isn't bad, either, but getting two level 1 items that do roughly similar things (regen/damage) is a little redundant.
i whispered hi2u.nukez for a scrim, he gathered up some friends and scrimmed my clan, we got raped
Us [sentinel] - potm void es mag and lina them [scourge] - pugna omni tinker viper bb
they tri-laned pugna omni and bb top and had tinker solo mid and viper solo bottom we got our ass raped, bb raped the living shit out of all of us. omni let him take all the last hits, i think he got a radiance in aroudn 20 so minutes... - _-;;
On September 04 2007 10:42 BlueRoyaL wrote: i whispered hi2u.nukez for a scrim, he gathered up some friends and scrimmed my clan, we got raped
Us [sentinel] - potm void es mag and lina them [scourge] - pugna omni tinker viper bb
they tri-laned pugna omni and bb top and had tinker solo mid and viper solo bottom we got our ass raped, bb raped the living shit out of all of us. omni let him take all the last hits, i think he got a radiance in aroudn 20 so minutes... - _-;;
my clan still needs hella work
err, your teams lineup looks pretty horrible, it doesn't really have synergy - and you have three melee heroes, and no real solo lane hero, unless you count POTM, which is cant stand up to tinker or viper solo. Like, why would you even get void if you arent revolving your strat around him (aka 1-2 range dps solo heroes (silencer/nevermore/etc), SK with blink, and an intel like lesh/lich/qop/dp.
I can tell that they must have raped all three of the lanes easily just from the heroes. Not to mention they are a pretty good team skill wise.
On September 04 2007 11:03 Pacifist wrote: why do people go solo top and bot and 3mid as opposed to 2/2/1?
I don't think any team really goes tri mid... its always solo mid, and tri lane/solo top mid depending on what side you are on. It really depends on your lineups, but most teams like to have 2 carry heroes, popular ones being tinker, qop, silencer, nevermore, lich, zeus, viper. Heroes like zeus/qop usually take the top/bottom solo lanes since they can survive vs even a double/tri lane with arc lightning/blink... and they have the 3 'support' heroes usually with mass nuke/stuns on the tri lane to dominate it. This allows the two carry heroes to farm and level much faster while putting some massive pressure on the lane you have three heroes in.
On September 04 2007 11:03 Pacifist wrote: why do people go solo top and bot and 3mid as opposed to 2/2/1?
I don't think any team really goes tri mid... its always solo mid, and tri lane/solo top mid depending on what side you are on. It really depends on your lineups, but most teams like to have 2 carry heroes, popular ones being tinker, qop, silencer, nevermore, lich, zeus, viper. Heroes like zeus/qop usually take the top/bottom solo lanes since they can survive vs even a double/tri lane with arc lightning/blink... and they have the 3 'support' heroes usually with mass nuke/stuns on the tri lane to dominate it. This allows the two carry heroes to farm and level much faster while putting some massive pressure on the lane you have three heroes in.
Mid has the ramp, if the other player is good, he'll just play the ramp and creep pull to keep the fights there most of the time, my old clan's chieftain was particularly good about this with Enchantress. With the ramp, you can also vision screw someone as you have your tower to help against ganks (scourge side, top for sent) from bot as well as kiting capacity. Typically tri-lanes loses to tower huggers for solo and dual stun lanes which is why tri-lanes are very hard to execute properly for most teams.
Against a good a trilane your best option is to tower hug and creep pull to get the fights in front of your tower where its more costly to fight for the trilane. But typically its better to 2-1-1-1 with the last one jungling.bot forest. Puts the pressure on the opponent's bot lane to get an early ward up to prevent you from coming out of the forest ganking as well as controlling that bottom rune spawn for your/their bottler.
Typically I don't see Silencer soloing anymore, just because 290 ms opens you up to alot of stuff, regardless of your 600 range, glaives is a double edge sword as you can't creep pull as effectively, i.e. if they start playing close up to the creep wave at level 3+ you run the risk of being stunned and nuked. I still like him more in a dual lane with Curse to bait spell casts because for those few seconds you know what the opponent is gonna do.
yeah we noticed we were gonna lose within ten minutes seeing our heroes, and how we were laned, we were getting raped from the start
i didnt have much say in the hero picks, my friend did most of the choosing but yeah, i was like wtf when we chose potm and void at start (cuz they got first pick on bb)
we took turns banning heroes such as zeus silencer visage spectre and i forget a bit more
and this is kinda funny, i always wondered why bb was banned in dxd and such, and i realized today how fucking hard it is to kill him, he just doesnt die - _-;;
still don't know why visage is banned either, i mean i know he can tank like crazy and is a good hero killer too but i still have never seen a good visage player as ive seen the bb play today
On September 04 2007 18:21 lovetramy wrote: battle build = dr aegis :D
not really, usually 'battle build' means going dps on an intel hero. Popular ones are battle lina, qop, pugna, techies, etc. Probably involves going mkb, deso, guinsoo, and some kind of HP/other dps items. My battle build is: BoT, Guinsoo, Deso, MKB, Heart, AC
Imo there's really no reason anymore to ban visage. As a carry hero with radiance/heart his nerfs really made him much worse. Yes he's still viable but the way DotA is now with so many ganks etc there are much better heroes to equip Radiance/Heart with. His ulti is what really shines for your team. You save around 1000 gold on wards with proper revenant use.
Definitely try to have at least one range hero in each lane unless you're trying something special. Even if it's vs or someone with shitty range it still helps a lot.
It's pretty interesting that they tried a tri-lane like that. BB Pugna and Omni seems very weird. Should be countered by tower hug though like my clanmate Judicator already said.
We should scrim some time Blue it would be a lot more fair [and a better game in general] then what we got from scrimming hi2u lol. [ Although our latest scrim against them was nothing to be ashamed of ]
oh yeahhh!! i forgot that revenants can be used as wards haha ;p i guess that really is a big advantage
do you know what the team nP is? i was expecting him to bring his team (hi2u) to the scrim but he brought 4 people frmo nP, and i have no clue who they are haha, but in temrs of skill they all dominated us ;p
yeah we should scrim sometime, hopefully before school starsts, mine starts in about 3 weeks haha
I had a thought I wanted to share with everyone. I'd like feedback, too. This is mostly just my OCD bullshit where I have to have a constructive way to approach a given topic, so meh.
Anyways, all heroes fall into one of a few categories.
1. DPS (focusing on auto attack, i.e. sniper, razor) 2. Tank (being able to absorb large amounts of damage, i.e. centaur, tide) 3. Caster (focusing on abilities, not on auto attack)
Non-caster heroes with a spammable nuke benefit from a Basilius, although I should note that the Basilius is practically made for melee heroes with a spammable.
Melee heroes with a spammable want the regen, even if it's a fixed amount, to be able to use their nuke more frequently. Seeing as most melee spammers are not int heroes, they will naturally have low int, and so the Basilius will provide higher regen than a Sobi would. Melee heroes spend time running in and out of range of enemy heroes when trying to last hit, so the armor bonus helps to mitigate some of that harassment. The damage bonus helps in last hitting. The aura (which should be turned OFF for the first few levels) helps push towers because melee heroes spend time running in and out of range of the tower without being able to hit back, so having stronger creeps with you helps to even that out quite a bit.
All this rambling arose when I tried to figure out when to buy/not buy a basilius, sobi or arcane, which led me to this:
If you're spamming, you want the regen. If you're a melee spammer, you want a Basilius. If you're more of a caster spammer, you want the Sobi. But then I wondered: what if you want to spam CL with razor? Would you go basilius, since you're not a caster? That's what I would do.
If you're chaining abilities together, you need the mana pool, so an arcane or a couple nulls would fix that problem.
You could also not make up such stringent rules and be more flexible and adapt when you play You seem to be trying to make everything completely analytical and come up with a perfect build, or a perfect solution, when in reality it's a fluid game, things change, and you can't just stick to one build order all the time
@rpf you can't simplify dota like this there are many, many heroes which fall into more than one of those categories. what's a necrolic to you, a caster? he's as much a tank as he is a caster. what about clinkz, autoattack? without his spells he's nothing. how about the sandking? hp like a tank, 2+1 godly spells like a caster (on which he relies to support, tank and get kills) and an orb which is directly based on his autoattack there's many, many more. in fact, i'd be inclined to say the majority of dota heroes are not one-type. i can't think of even 1 one-type hero right now.. maybe n'aix as autoattack..hmm
you'd be hard pressed to convince me to get a RoB on a tiny/potm/luna instead of bottle/arcane ring. rob regen is terrible. that 1 extra nuke every few minutes, that'll make all the difference that will.
Arcane is not just for chain nuker, it can be for anyone who needs the mana. Like getting arcane on a Potm can be a good idea. You're not really "chaining" but you're gonna want to use arrow and starfall a lot, and they take up your mana fast.
Arcane Ring is usually not used that much on heroes, since the other mana items give more. Zeus and PotM can use it well though. Ring of Basilius isn't also just for you, it gives that helps lanemates, which is why I would get RoB on Lina when laning with another spellcaster. Perseverance is a good early game item, and if you're going to get a refresher later, it may be beneficial to start off with perseverance for lane stayability and spamming spells. PotM does kind of chain nukes, arrow to starfall is a chain since they can't do anything when they're stunned for 5 seconds.
arcane is good for any heroes that need the mana (due to low intel growth) and have a few spells they can use often. you also get it strategically in the game depending on who you lane with so both of you can benefit from it
k I'm working on those replays that people requested. School started so I'll need some time >_<
Perseverance is a pretty weak build on most heroes. You're better off with +stats items and bottle/other form of regen. Void stone doesn't help that much at early stages since it's relative to your mana.
So when I go linken's on QoP for instance, I will go RoH --> ultimate orb --> voidstone --> linken's
Besides, bfury/refresher/linken are only 'needed' for a few heroes. I think a lot of people have the misconception that perseverance will let them stay in lane infinitely, while spamming their skills to pressure opponents. But this is bad theory crafting. Your regen will be useless in an actual fight. Since you invested so much into perseverance, assuming you worked your way straight to it, you'll be behind in stats.
Alright here are some games I played in the past 2 days. I wish I could have saved more but a lot of the games I play tend to be one-sided and that's boring. Most of these games are -rd
skill: max orb first, then wane, then phase shift and get ult at 6/11/16
faerie is very fragile because of his pathetic str gain so you need to compensate for that by getting +stat items:
bracers linkens skadi
In this particular game, farmed farmed farmed and went 3 bracers + BoT --> Skadi since I got off to a good start which meant that I was higher lvl, so I wanted map control.
I got stuck with Lion who sucked on bottom as scourge. Ogre magi is kind of like the int version of spectre: sucks at farming but one he gets his gear/lvl on, he'll go on a rampage.
Anyway, things look pretty bad for my team in the beginning, especially with a few idiotic deaths for me, although the 1st one is mainly due to lion's incompetence.
Depends on the situation but I like to go mystic staff before any of the boosters because ogre is a shitty farmer and farming is usually safer early game. And ogre has a buttload of str and crappy mana pool so he can afford to go mystic first.
Once you get aghanim's there should be a big difference in game flow since he becomes pretty imba.
I love tormented soul! Unfortunately, scourge had anti-mage who free farmed more than he should have been allowed. I also underestimated my opponents since I have a tendency to label ppl who have numbers in their akas newb >_< lesson learned
Notice how I don't get aghanim's for a long time since antimage was getting out of control -_-;
This game was frustrating really, since I was doing my part but my teammates weren't doing theirs very well. Who the fuck picks alchemist anyway It has a lot of action so I thought it was worth saving although some of my deaths are pretty embarassing.
skill: stun + lightning if you have a laning partner, who has slow/disable
otherwise I go lightning + diabloic if I'm soloing:
lightning/diabolic/L/D/D/L/D/L/stun/pulse nova/pulse nova
Zeus is an easy hero to understand. Deal damage? -_-
arc/bolt/bolt/static/bolt/wrath/bolt/static/static/static/wrath/stats until you can afford to spam higher lvl arc lightning
item: arcane ring --> blink dagger --> soul booster --> BoT/eul's etc.
Actually, this game is pretty short and to make it worse, pretty one-sided. I'll try to get more zeus games but I'm playing mostly -rd so I can only hope he'll show up often
Zeus has a pretty sick casting range (thank god, since he's one of the shittiest int laners) so learn to keep your distance since you're quite fragile early on. A neat trick when you're chasing someone who's near death that keeps escaping your vision (tree hugging/higher grounds) is to ult for vision followed by bolt to finish. There's an example of that when I kill ursa near top rune spot.
This is a version 6.41 replay that I had lying around. It's outdated but it shouldn't be too bad. After they nerfed shadow strike, I max fear first, followed by max ss and lvl 1 blink and ult at lvl 10 and 11.
I'll have better replays of QoP coming so watch if you're bored :p
She needs as much hp/mana she can get which is why skadi/linken's/aghanim's are popular on her. I usually get one of those followed up by necronomicon/guinsoos/whatever
I better try Ogre Magi and Tormented Soul soon; for some reason whenever I see other people's builds they all seem so much more exciting in comparison to mine -_-;;;
Heen, I've got a question for you, so I hope it makes sense.
Anyways, I've noticed generally you're either going to focus on your autoattack, or you'll focus on your abilities. Heroes like Razor and Drow focus on their autoattack generally, whereas heroes like Axe or Zeus don't.
My usual build is usually dual bracer/boots --> heart/bfly/guin depending on main stat (obviously I don't this for EVERY hero)
But say I'm playing a hero like Zeus where you want to focus on their abilities, and go arcane/sce[ter, for example. Do you still get bracers?
See, usually you're getting the bracers because you need the boost to your health early game, whereas late game that ~200 HP isn't really useful anymore (many DPS heroes hit for that much past L20ish).
So on Axe, for example, if I was to follow my "usual build," I'd end up with 2 bracers, boots, and then be working on a vanguard and dagger since those are clearly core items for Axe. But the HP is redundant, and the stats aren't a huge benefit since Axe focuses more on his abilities, not on his autoattack.
Does any of this rambling make sense? I guess my personal playstyle was always to play a hero based on their attack, not on their abilities. :/
What's a good standard build for bs? I usually go Power treads->butterfly->hyperstone/Buriza, but I'm not so sure if this is fine, or what my other items should be. Anybody have some insight? And what about sk? I understand he should get a blink dagger at least so he can cast Epicenter out of sight then blink in, but what are some other good items for him?
rpf -- you can skimp on bracers but you're going to be the first to die in any battle without any +hp items, esp since zeus has no escape mechanism (and even with ;p). you can argue that +200 hp is nearly void in comparison to the high damage output of heroes as the game progresses, but face it, you can't play the game without taking a beating, and the bracers definitely help you survive.
also, there have been so many incidents where i've survived with <200 hp with two bracers in my inventory.
Meh, depends on your teamwork for bracers, if they are going through your team to get to you, your team better have gotten a 2+ to 1 trade for it. I mean, the HP items comes out ot be more useful when you are being ganked than in a team fight, you should be able to manage in a team fight with proper teamwork, unless your hero has just absolutely shit HP growth.
Elemonope... you should almost never get butterfly as your 1st item after boots/treads... in fact I wouldn't even get treads on him, you definitely want BoT on BS for the MS and map control (he has a pretty fast ult cool down). I personally wouldn't even get butterfly as my 2nd or 3rd item.
I play BS like this: get stats items (circlets) -> wraith or bracer(s), skip altogether if you're farming really well and go straight radiance -> BoT -> then you can get w/e you want (s&y, mkb, burize, butterfly, AC, etc).
For sandking, I play him as a tank/support hero... tangos/clarity -> bottle -> blink, then euls -> BoT -> vanguard and/or heart, finish guinsoo when you run out of euls charges, and then w/e you want. This build is really for 'teamplay'. It works really well imo, especially since hes not really a 'carry' hero.
rpf, like everyone has been saying to you, adjust according to the game... you may have to get a bracer or two on zeus if the situation warrants it depending on your lane/enemy team heroes. But if you follow heen's build order, I dont see a need for it in most cases. You should be playing pretty conservatively early on... in a tough lane, hang back and last hit creeps with arc and tower hug until u get blink.
rpf, what do you mean focus on auto attack? you should never auto attack unless like late game you can kill every creep in 2-3 hits by auto attacking. to maximize your farming, you need to last hit mostly all throughout the game.
The way I see it, bracers and other stats items are for:
1) improved last hitting, heroes with good attack animation usually mass +stat items because they are usually carry and need to farm something big
2) survivability, 200 hp does help, especially against 1 man ganks. This is very important since it's much more difficult to avoid a 1 man gank than a 2-3 man gank. It's not worth it to play conservatively with 500 hp vs lina/nerubian assassin/tiny You're going to die sooner or later and you miss a lot of farming opportunities because you have to be a pussy.
As for seeker, I actually do go dagon on him. It's incredilbly useful when you need to kill someone who's at ~300 hp but you can't do it by hitting him (ie. luna or axe when you're also low hp) He's the only hero I go dagon on reguarly, I think. That followed by radiance and often blink dagger and BoT.
Got a bit of a newbie question. Still learning. Can you have two orb effect items in your inventory? For example say, Satanic and Mask of madness? Or does it mean "cannot stack" meaning you cant have two of the same items?
You can have any orb items you want. you can put any items you want in your inventory. Melee units can only have one orb item. Whatever is placed first will have that orb used. Ranged characters can have two orbs if one of them is skadi because basically skadi doesn't count as an orb for ranged (eg: potm with skadi and mjollnir).
Most of the time, it's a waste to get 2 orb items for any hero (exception of the skadi on ranged) because most good orb items are expensive, due to the orb effect they give you, not the small attack/stats boost or whatever. so after you get your 1 orb, farm other items that are more beneficial to your hero
On September 06 2007 11:25 TheMango wrote: Elemonope... you should almost never get butterfly as your 1st item after boots/treads... in fact I wouldn't even get treads on him, you definitely want BoT on BS for the MS and map control (he has a pretty fast ult cool down). I personally wouldn't even get butterfly as my 2nd or 3rd item.
I play BS like this: get stats items (circlets) -> wraith or bracer(s), skip altogether if you're farming really well and go straight radiance -> BoT -> then you can get w/e you want (s&y, mkb, burize, butterfly, AC, etc).
For sandking, I play him as a tank/support hero... tangos/clarity -> bottle -> blink, then euls -> BoT -> vanguard and/or heart, finish guinsoo when you run out of euls charges, and then w/e you want. This build is really for 'teamplay'. It works really well imo, especially since hes not really a 'carry' hero.
Why skip over PT in favor of BoT though? With PT, once thirst kicks in, you have over maximum move speed anyway unless something was changed recently, and you get the increased attack speed, though I'm not sure exactly what the range required for thirst to take effect, but it seems well off. I agree his ulti CD is low, but that makes it seem more in favor of jungling and ambushing with the mechanics of rupture. I agree that farming for butterfly first after boots/treads seems to be a waste, but I wasn't sure exactly what I should go for. With you mentioning radiance, I remember one game in which I did have it and it did help a lot, however, I wasn't sure if SnY would help out more in comparison to a single basher+hyperstone. Granted, I haven't been playing long so it may seem like a dumb question, but a good explanation would be nice [only good part about bs is that he's easy to play imo so many people still run and die from rupture itself and I don't even have to bother chasing -.-]
On September 06 2007 18:12 BlueRoyaL wrote: You can have any orb items you want. you can put any items you want in your inventory. Melee units can only have one orb item. Whatever is placed first will have that orb used. Ranged characters can have two orbs if one of them is skadi because basically skadi doesn't count as an orb for ranged (eg: potm with skadi and mjollnir).
Most of the time, it's a waste to get 2 orb items for any hero (exception of the skadi on ranged) because most good orb items are expensive, due to the orb effect they give you, not the small attack/stats boost or whatever. so after you get your 1 orb, farm other items that are more beneficial to your hero
Not true. There are very specific orb priority tables... Items Skills
On September 06 2007 13:54 BlueRoyaL wrote: rpf, what do you mean focus on auto attack? you should never auto attack unless like late game you can kill every creep in 2-3 hits by auto attacking. to maximize your farming, you need to last hit mostly all throughout the game.
auto attack = never do it
Sorry, I should have clarified. I never autoattack creeps unless I'm pushing a lane back.
When I said "focus on autoattack," I meant when you're fighting another player.
please suggest me a solid item build on the storm panda!
i read much about it, but everyone has a different opinion.. first player says rush to maelstrom, seconds says skadi + buriza third : MKB... every build starts with two bracers + boot of course.
Elemenope, do not get an SnY on bloodseeker. Think about it: The nature of rupture is for your damage to kick in the more distance they create [ aka running ] by getting a maim you are causing him to create much less distance thereby causing less damage. You may think that the maim actually helps though since rupture does damage AND you are able to reach him to hit him as he runs, but in reality nobody [ other than pubbers ] will run through your rupture unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, you need rupture to do as much damage as possible while getting a much better item [ FOR NEARLY THE SAME PRICE AS SNY ] such as radiance so you can hit them with radiance's shine damage while you run with them.
Not only does getting a radiance give you more damage output it also lets you get a much better orb item such as manta.
BoT is just better than treads on almost every character except Furion. The +15% IAS really isn't that huge of a difference, but the 35 more MS means you can chase them further for the kill. It also helps your mobility a lot, allowing you to push, defend, and farm very efficiently.
Although someone already stated this, you can only have 1 orb at one time, and each one has different priority. Sometimes it depends on which slot its in, or which orb it is, or whether or not it procs. Actually, there's two separate things, Attack Buffers and Orbs, and you can have one of each. Ranged Skadi is an attack buff so you can stack it with an Orb, but Melee Skadi is both an Orb and an Attack Buff, so it doesn't stack with anything.
Getting Bracers depends on how the game is going, If your team is owning, then you can probably skip it and just go blink and BoT for ganking. I assume when you say Autoattack you're reffering to DPS, or people who are primarily responsible for the dealing the damage to the other team.
Radiance allows you to deal more damage than SnY by a considerable amount, and the best part is you farm like a god once you get it. The only benefit that SnY really gives that I can see is MS, otherwise its just a little bit of everything. You should be faster than them already from Thirst, and you can just chase them down and kill them.
On September 07 2007 01:26 Ack1027 wrote: Elemenope, do not get an SnY on bloodseeker. Think about it: The nature of rupture is for your damage to kick in the more distance they create [ aka running ] by getting a maim you are causing him to create much less distance thereby causing less damage. You may think that the maim actually helps though since rupture does damage AND you are able to reach him to hit him as he runs, but in reality nobody [ other than pubbers ] will run through your rupture unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, you need rupture to do as much damage as possible while getting a much better item [ FOR NEARLY THE SAME PRICE AS SNY ] such as radiance so you can hit them with radiance's shine damage while you run with them.
Not only does getting a radiance give you more damage output it also lets you get a much better orb item such as manta.
Agreed with this, Radiance is the #1 best first item for Bs. I get a couple bracers, maybe 3 if I'm having a super hard time, and go for radiance. Radiance helps because #1 you're a chaser and #2 you are a shitty farmer. After that you can go for BoT or a different damage item depending on the game. They nerfed him since I last played him (a looong time ago, admittedly) but back then when he had his full aura on he had 512 movespeed without treads so he didn't need anything but BoT ever. I understand now his aura thing has been nerfed but he's still faster than 90% of heros when he's chasing.
As for SnY, it's a good "newbie" item or "difficult game item" because each part costs very little and it's easy to make/farm up. However almost every hero has a much much better item for about the same price. The only hero I get SnY on consistently is bounty hunter.
On September 07 2007 01:26 Ack1027 wrote: Elemenope, do not get an SnY on bloodseeker. Think about it: The nature of rupture is for your damage to kick in the more distance they create [ aka running ] by getting a maim you are causing him to create much less distance thereby causing less damage. You may think that the maim actually helps though since rupture does damage AND you are able to reach him to hit him as he runs, but in reality nobody [ other than pubbers ] will run through your rupture unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, you need rupture to do as much damage as possible while getting a much better item [ FOR NEARLY THE SAME PRICE AS SNY ] such as radiance so you can hit them with radiance's shine damage while you run with them.
Not only does getting a radiance give you more damage output it also lets you get a much better orb item such as manta.
Actually depending on how you build Seeker talent wise, SnY might not be such a bad item set, Rupture against better players acts more as a snare than a bleeding ulti, any damage you get from the bleed part is just bonus. That being said, if you go max out bath and then do stats and the damage ampy skill with only a point in thirst (or none), SnY will complement what you need to do very well. Quite honestly it depends on how well you are farming, either can work with Seeker.
On September 07 2007 04:11 terr13 wrote: BoT is just better than treads on almost every character except Furion. The +15% IAS really isn't that huge of a difference, but the 35 more MS means you can chase them further for the kill. It also helps your mobility a lot, allowing you to push, defend, and farm very efficiently.
On September 07 2007 05:07 paper wrote: treads is 35% ias & +65 ms -__-
ya 90-65 is 25 more ms, i guess just a calculation error there. his "+15% IAS" refers to the additional IAS from the "OLD" tread when upgraded from glove (so terr13 is probably an oldschool player", you can get the glove for the initial 15%, and the other 20% isnt much honestly. map control is more important than puny little atk speed. you have tread, enemy have BoT, he outruns you, u use ulti, he teleports. if you come with a group to gank, whole team with BoT teleport to rescue their team mate in danger, and totally own your gank team instead. mobility > everything. You just dont need the extra atk speed and movespeed, if ur a dmg hero, farm the dmg item, then upgrade to BoT once you have the big items.
On September 07 2007 21:41 brambolius wrote: i love how ppl are always saying bot owns treads on all heroes except furion......these ppl phail
On September 07 2007 23:13 freelander wrote: please suggest me a decent build on Storm Spirit! this hero is cute and fun
ror or circlet tango.
surge stomp skill max ofc.. + stats or shield up to line up. hyperstone or midas into maelstrom, while getting the channeling 80% atk speed skills as you see fit (provided u have enough hp from stats that you desire)
from here, u can upgrade maelstrom with the eaglehorn, but it might not be the best option yet, since ur not agility hero. burize or guinsoo here works, then into majornir. get BoT somewhere here, and you can kill most heroes with the chasing speed, surge with incredible atk speed and ulti-blink.
from here on... lets say u have BoT, hyperstone, majornir, burize/guinsoo (up to enemy lineup) and you have 2 more splots, i would say heart, assault to become a super tank with majornir's shield. The last item doesnt really matter much, you can carry an aegis, or get butterfly/hyper again or just get mkb.... at this point anything works, UNLESS enemies have super disable, which means you would've needed BKB at some point during the game, which could take up the "6th" slot. there were a couple of games that i got bkb after hyper maelstrom due huge enemy caster/disabler lineup.
strafe, do you live in another dimension wtf it's hard to get a game with you.
because we've been GGC'ing lately, a good portion of our bnet contacts are lost so it's basically tl mixed with pubs. Let's get a good lc host and go back to bnet o_o
1) using mana wisely: I see newbs just blink in and fear only to find out they have no mana left to blink away (even if it's lvl 1 blink) This depends on the situation of course. For example I wouldn't need to worry about what happens when I blink up the ramp early game since it's unlikely an enemy from another lane will come out of the trees to stun me. If you're chasing near death, make sure you have 200 (60+140) or more mana so you dont get owned after you blink in.
2) using blink wisely: especially while your blink is lvl 1, you're often better off walking until you encounter someone. Use trees and cliffs to your advantage. Once you get linken's bad blinks should be less fatal unless they have a shitload of disables.
Funny I should say this since my first death is the result of an idiotic blink. I do that in friendly games, play carelessly ;p
One of the easier heroes that doesn't take much practice... Solo mid again, and for some reason scourge sent witch doctor solo instead of viper vs me. Needless to say, he got raped.
depending on the game I'll go mek first but since I farmed a good amount of money I went blink dagger first
skill: DR/nova/nova/DR/nova/CF/nova/DR/DR/stats/FC/get 1 pt of frost armor when you think it'll come in handy and rest stats
get obs wards to put on their ramp, this is useful for just about all ranged soloers in mid lane
Even though lich has dark ritual, you need to choose when to nuke. Best time to nuke is when his creep wave is all dead or mostly dead so you can get free hits in afterwards. Then you also want to save up mana at lvl 5 before you hit 6 so you can double nuke for possible kill. Also, I DR the ranged creeps when my mana is full since they are harder to deny.
skadi on SF is bad imo. Takes forever and it's just not manly enough. deso hurts a lot but then again diffusal is more interesting
To be honest, I don't play SF often enough to have item builds in my head so this game I kind of improvised, SF has shit low hp so sometimes I go vanguard if they have a lot of combat heroes as opposed to nukers but even a vitality booster (later used for manta/heart) will help tons.
skill: alternate between necro mastery and shadowraze until lvl 8, ult at lvl 9/11 and stats until you think you can take some hits
Ok, I've been playing a lot of heroes I don't usually pick for TL <3 so I think I'll try going back to heroes that suit my style the best!
- Treads: I really like these now. I wasn't a big fan of them before, but the attack speed and ability to change the stat it uses it pretty cool.
- Shiva's: I love this on heroes like Silencer, or any other int hero without a reliable way to chase people. The armor is great if the other team isn't full of casters and nukers.
- Malevolence: Only used it once, but it seems great for any int auto-attacker with a nuke. I used it with a dagon once; it was fun.
- Armlet: Sucks. Every now and then someone will build one, and then they die because they forget to turn it off.
I have a couple of other questions, which will probably seem...nitpicky. Mostly because I'm an analytical, nitpicky, perfectionist.
1. If you're going scepter... - What starting items do you buy? - Do you buy a sobi or void stone? If so, when?
2. What do higher level players buy for starting items? - Some people tell me to buy branches, and sell them one by one as I don't need them, as obviously +5 is pretty significant early on, but mid-late game +5 is pretty insignificant. - I see most people buy circlets and tangoes, but I don't know if that's a "pub" thing or whatever.
I've tried downloading some higher level replays, but sometimes they won't play for some reason. I'll have to figure that out. :/
treads i get more often now, the +stats is really nice, and being able to change it without rebuilding it. shivas is nice, but i think the items required need to be changed. malevolence is awesome for ints, but other items beforehand are usually better imo. i only like armlet on certain heros.
branches, tangos, clarities, ror, bottle. that's basically the items i get depending on my hero/other team heros. +stats and regen early is usually the best so you can stay in a lane longer.
I think I've seen two people in pubs actually get armlet. They both killed themselves with it, said something to the effect of "wow, fuck that" in all chat, and then the next time I saw them they had sold it and bought other things. XD
I think I've seen two people in pubs actually get armlet. They both killed themselves with it, said something to the effect of "wow, fuck that" in all chat, and then the next time I saw them they had sold it and bought other things. XD
I think I've seen two people in pubs actually get armlet. They both killed themselves with it, said something to the effect of "wow, fuck that" in all chat, and then the next time I saw them they had sold it and bought other things. XD
Never used armlet, so I'm not really qualified to talk about it, but that's not stopping anyone else here, so here I go.
Armlet's pretty cheap. No, I don't remember what you need for it, I just remembering thinking "hey, that costs less than Eul's."
It gives you massive temporary strength (and attack speed?). This means massive boost in damage for str heroes. I don't really see it being useful for anyone else. Maybe ursa, because his damage is dependent on HP. Since it drains HP as it increases your pool, I think you can pretty much ignore that aspect of it (it will only affect your hp at the end of the fight, which means you're already dead or everyone else is also, so you don't really care).
As for idiots forgetting to turn it off and draining out their HP, that says something about the player, not the item. Saying it makes the item suck would be same logic that says some idiots forget to turn off tormented's ult, so it sucks. Right?
I meant it sucks before I never saw much of a use for it. I can see how it would be useful for some specific str heroes, but then again I'd much rather get other items on those heroes.
When armlet first came out, I killed myself with it once. I turned it on at the fountain and walked off to neutral. I died before I got to the neutrals. A teammate did the same thing the same game. I figured it was an active like on satanic, where it's a short duration buff, instead of a toggle ability like Leshrac's ult.
i usually always get armlet on huskar, the +str/dmg/hp factor added in with losing hp(meaning his passive kicks in) makes it perfect for him, and with lifesteal+his heal you can run to neutrals or creeps and get back to almost full health in a relatively short time.
mostly though i can only see it working on str heros, there are just much better items out there imo for agi/int heros for a boost in health or living then armlet.
Costs a total of 2850, and Euls costs a total of 2800, but close ^^
I like it if you're playing a DPS str hero and you can't survive long enough for a Reaver. There really isn't much in terms of cheap DPS for a str hero other than bracers or tread, I think?
On January 27 2008 14:03 zizou21 wrote: treads are good now
rest is garbage
Have you ever played some "high level play"? Treads are garbage except very limited heroes. (Furion, Sven, DT) Furion does not need Travel, as he has already a gay teleporation skill. Sven and DT needs extremely attack speed to do well.
For items, I think SnY is utter garbage, vladimir is garbage too (It costs too much and gives nothing), Deso is good but it's easily counterable (Assault+Mek), Rapier is garbage too after the gone of Aegis (You need to kill Roshan and it gives you no survival abilities)
Beginning of the game, i think 5 gg branches + 4 tangoes OR if you need mana get clarities instead of gg branches.
Now the real question to get items of late game.
1)You are a soloer and excepted to carry your team and farm like a whore. (Silencer, Bone etc..) 2)You are a ganker and your job is ganking not farming. (Venge,Lina etc..) 3)You are a soloer but you need to hit lvl 6-7 ASAP and start roaming to kill something and farm like a bitch too. (Viper, Mirana) 4)You can't solo because you are a melee hero but you're a late game beast. (Sven, Spec, DT)
If You're number 1, You'll need to get damage items/survival items ASAP. Butterfly, MKB for Bone ; Guinsoo for Silencer for example. Just farm like mad and don't die too much, you need to farm like shit to carry your team. (These heroes need mostly BKB because they just eat disables.) If You're number 2, FARM NOTHING JUST GANK AND WALK AROUND AND BUY WARDS. Yes these heroes don't need much items, maybe boots,4 bracers and bottle. These heroes sopport the farmer bitch and they don't think to die any second. They're brave, they make their team and carrier hero strong. If You're number 3, This is one of the hardest thing to do. You need to overpower your opponent by killing, and you're excepted to carry your team. You'll need to make balance of killing and farming. Just make these heroes 4 Bracer/Band and Travel, after you get these items, Farm to damage items. If You're number 4, You can't gank, you do not do much thing early game, but if you manage to overcome your early game weakness, you're a beast. Don't make bracers,bands but just go to your goal item. (Radi for Spec, Bkb for Sven, 3x Battlefuries or Butterfly for DT)
On January 27 2008 14:03 zizou21 wrote: treads are good now
rest is garbage
For items, I think SnY is utter garbage, vladimir is garbage too (It costs too much and gives nothing), Deso is good but it's easily counterable (Assault+Mek), Rapier is garbage too after the gone of Aegis (You need to kill Roshan and it gives you no survival abilities) DT)
armor counters mkb, buriza,... in exactly the same way as it counters desolator, and this still makes deso the cheapest damage item, and it combines well with other physical dps. S and Y is pretty good on ganking heroes if you have money left when the whole map is warded, for example venge is pretty good with s and y, the ms is very good for swapping and chasing for the second stun, and a lucky maim is probably the best thing you autoattack is capable off. its also good on less used heroes like SB, or on TB when you dont have time to get radiance first or straight for skadi, its pretty good on panda too if you skipped blink and went for BoTs. imo s and y is really underrated. Nice division of heroes btw, i agree with it, and yeah, treads suck, only get it when you really really need the ias early and there is no other way of getting it, e.g. sven, am or underfarmed silencer
I'm beginning to think that treads really aren't that great anymore. Sure, they're great early game, but come late game when I need to help with map control, those treads really don't help me out too much.
One question about the branches vs. bracer routes:
- If you buy branches at the start, is it because you're skipping bracers altogether, or do you just buy the branches because of the efficiency? For example, do you buy branches and tangoes because it's the best stat increase for the money, but then buy bracers a bit later on?
I only ask because even though I feel very comfortable going 2 circlet/2 tangoes at the start, come late game, the 228 HP I get from the bracers often isn't too significant, seeing as the enemy DPS heroes often hit for that much before mitigation. Early game, that much HP is a good 5-8 more autoattacks worth.
That's why I like branches: it gives you the best stat increase possible early game, and as you sell them one by one, the one stat you lose is no longer of any significance, and the branch has more than paid for itself.
p.s. Yes, I suck at DotA. That's why I'm asking questions. There are still heroes I haven't played much.
I actually just played Puck for the first time the other day. I like him. Any good builds on him? I've tried going 2 tangoes/2 circlet --> pers/2 bracer --> linken's/BoT, and I like it a lot.
Armlet is a really strong item on certain heros (personally I like it on sven too).
But it cannot kill you, rpf. If you died with it on "while walking about before reaching neutrals" then you're either lying or you got hit by something. It has a 10 second cooldown and you can reuse it over and over. It adds +500 hp and contrary to what someone above posted that that is not good because it drains life...it's very good. It drains 30 hp/sec. It still takes awhile for that +500 to go away, and then you can turn it off and on quickly and get the +500 back (don't do this in the middle of a fight obviously). If you're at 45 hp with your armlet on, and you can be sure not to be hit as you're running, turn it off and on and you'll go back up to 545 hp. It adds a ton of damage to a str hero, as well as 45% increased attack speed, armor, and some hp regen.
sny is definately not a garbage item. for most heroes there are better item choices but on some heroes like sb, sniper, morph, etc sny is pretty damn strong.
Because the parts to SNY are most cost effective than overpriced ultimate orbs. SNY build farms faster than skadi on TB.
And speed + maim gives people an incentive to run their ass off vs a farmed tb instead of trying to dance their way.
Morphling's ms is slow so people try to make up for it with skadi and BoT. Mana/int isn't an issue on most non int hero anyway. Having 2000 mana isn't much better than having 1000 ~_~
On January 29 2008 06:20 HonkHonkBeep wrote: Armlet is a really strong item on certain heros (personally I like it on sven too).
But it cannot kill you, rpf. If you died with it on "while walking about before reaching neutrals" then you're either lying or you got hit by something. It has a 10 second cooldown and you can reuse it over and over. It adds +500 hp and contrary to what someone above posted that that is not good because it drains life...it's very good. It drains 30 hp/sec. It still takes awhile for that +500 to go away, and then you can turn it off and on quickly and get the +500 back (don't do this in the middle of a fight obviously). If you're at 45 hp with your armlet on, and you can be sure not to be hit as you're running, turn it off and on and you'll go back up to 545 hp. It adds a ton of damage to a str hero, as well as 45% increased attack speed, armor, and some hp regen.
Well, I killed myself with it by accident. Either that or I could quadruple ganked and didn't notice.
I'm pretty sure it's like poison. You won't actually die from it. More likely you were looking at something else while you had it on and walked over to a creep, and had like 10 hp left and it hit you once.
Personally, I think S&Y is overpriced. I'd rather get an eaglehorn for most agil heroes, after a couple of bracers. For morphling, after a couple of a couple of wraith bands.
That means depend on teammates for disable/slow so you can deal damage. If you don't wanna do that, maybe a diffusal would be useful.
On January 29 2008 09:00 IntoTheWow wrote: I don't understand why people like S&Y on Morph so much. Isn't skadi way better since you benefit from stats a lot?
Same with Terrorblade, his imgs only benefit from stat gains right? why get S&Y on him?
Terrorblade caps rather quickly as a carry hero compared to others. His six slot limitation is a lot more obvious imo than other carries such as say, a super farmed clinkz.
The next time you get terrorblade try to shoot for the following item build [if you know how to jungle, even if you don't should still work] 4xWraith bands travels SnY [ Sange first ]
Skill build: [ If you know how to jungle properly ] Metamorph / Image / Metamorph / Image / Image / Sunder / finish metamorph/image and get stats.
Skill build: [ laning or beginner jungle ] Life steal/images first then metamorph.
I highly suggest you do the first build even if you're not good at jungle simply because unlike other jungle's terroblades strength is in killing the neuts fast with his high damage output rather than pulling lots of double/triple spawns and taking them out for big chunks of xp.
Travels SnY 4x wraith bands you will outrun pretty much anyone but chaos knight with treads. It's so ridiculous how fast you attack and move. TB's base move speed is 320 I believe. His attack does extra damage to towers because of the actual animation type. Even if you don't maim you can rape people once you metamorph and create images for team fights. If you do maim, they have no chance of escape.
It's a very successful build, used even at top level games. It allows you to farm cheap items, dominate mid game, and transition EASILY into skadi or butterfly.
Edit: Remember to make skadi when you are metamorphosed so you will have skadi as a non-orb item. [ Range heroes don't count skadi as an orb ] Even when you are melee it will remain a ' range ' skadi type. Maim+skadi, do I need to explain?
No show on both sides actually. Anyway we're up for it any time you're bored Not in a hurry any more.
Some people like radiance TB (even at pro lvl) but I don't really like it especially after having tried it myself. BoT + SnY + yasha stack on TB is funny since TB benefits so much from +stats that it's not really a waste.
I once did Ultimate (the skill, not Laguna) and stun, then stats build on Lina. Mjolnir. It was funny, until we started losing. Then I finished my guinsoo's, and it was funny again.
On January 29 2008 11:39 IntoTheWow wrote: Sounds good. So do you pull nuetrals in jungle with that build or just attack / run back / repeat ?
If it's scourge, I usually just start at level one [ unless it's rd, neuts spawn later at 4min mark ] and pull mid creeps to gnoll assassins, then pull the creep right above gnolls at 50 down to the gnolls/your creeps [depending on what type or when gnolls about to die. If it's something strong like centaurs you can pull earlier, if it's trolls you can pull a bit later ] and that way that creep spawn respawns by the time you get back up on the hill. [ Again basic rules of jungle and neut respawn is you must not have vision of the neut area ]
Then I just go back and forth between the two neut spots right above the original 2 areas. Go to spawn when necessary or just die to neutrals as it's faster and nobody gets any exp. This is at level 3 or lower, otherwise run back is fine. A quick tip that works on sent side too is to buy one set of tangoes to begin and that way you can work your way up from the gnoll+other neut area right into the other neut area right above and pull. Get creative, stack as much as you like but only stack one area at a time otherwise you won't be able to take it out.
Sent is pretty easy at bot, you pull the lowest then as you're about to kill those eat a tree behind where they spawn go up and pull that spawn down at around 50-53 and you'll have another spawn when you go back up there.
A lot of this is some advanced jungle stuff. Youtube some beastmaster jungle videos and you'll pick up great easy-to-do tips once you watch them. It would take too long to type out all the jungle rules but basically don't have vision for respawns, and most camps you pull as far as you can between the 50-53 second mark.
If you hit level 11 by 16 minutes you're doing a great job. [Not -rd, although possible]
Try to make sure your team has two able solos though, TB absolutely can't do anything because of his skillset to gank unlike other junglers like bm or furion who can help even at level 3. TB concentrates solely on becoming a beast for midgame if he jungles.
On January 29 2008 11:02 Ack1027 wrote: His attack does extra damage to towers because of the actual animation type.
WTF man?
I don't know the details and just speculating from what I know, but I assume what Ack means is that the animation of the projectile TB shoots while in Meta is actually non-hero damage rather than the one listed in your GUI (which is Hero).
That means while Armor Values play a part in reducing damage, Armor Types do not so you aren't penalized because you are doing Hero Damage against Fortified Armor. My question is that if Skadi is in the mix would that still apply.
And yeah TB is one of those imba carry heroes because he farms (if let go) so damn fast compared to the other "scary" carries. Same with Luna in the sense that once she gets her first damage item, Glaives guarantee easy last hits the rest of the way. Spec/Void are not like that in the sense that they can't wipe waves mid game like these two can and suffer greatly from a poor early game. Thats the reason why you see TB/Luna being banned more and more often now, its just too easy for them to throttle into late game mode once they get past early game.
On January 29 2008 11:02 Ack1027 wrote: His attack does extra damage to towers because of the actual animation type.
WTF man?
It's true. You haven't noticed? Lina uses the catapult animation from regular wc3. Same applies to Furion and TB in meta. You never noticed they take towers a bit faster?
The last time I tested it was in .38 which was a long time ago. But since then there hasn't been a log that really addressed the issue so with the current versions I believe they are still the same.
I guess you could test it simply in single player by attacking the tower with tb in melee form with images vs meta form with images and see what happens.
i just love getting sny on my troll. with rampage/sny/threads there is hardly anyone who can escape w/o dagger and maim is just too nice of a proc to miss
edit: btw i try getting sny on most of the agi heroes that i play when i dont get dagger just for the boost in str/run speed
On January 31 2008 02:15 IntoTheWow wrote: I think most people like it becuause its made of cheap parts. So you can build it even if you die while farming a couple of times.
I think that's its only redeeming factor. If I'm a strength or agility hero, and I just can't farm, SnY is an item I'm "forced" into buying. I don't like it, but once I have the SnY I am in a much better position to actually do something.
Edit: Out of curiosity, are there any items that are ignored or shunned by high level players?
For example, I refuse to get a Lothar's simply because it's so easily countered. I've had so many games where I'd go Lothar's on Sniper or some other agility hero to avoid some bastard SB, only to see SB buy a gem and curbstomp me again. Then I sell the Lothar's and buy a dagger.
200g ward > 3500g (?) Lothar's
Other than that, I think most items have at least one hero where that item is ideal. Even a Battlefury, which I don't really like on most heroes, is great on PA. Critting cleaves are incredible to stop pushes, push yourself, or just generally deal damage in groups. I've died twice to a critted cleave. :/
On January 31 2008 02:15 IntoTheWow wrote: I think most people like it becuause its made of cheap parts. So you can build it even if you die while farming a couple of times.
Doesn't change the tide of the game even if you do get it, its like oh no SnY with shit damage run for the hills /sarcasm. I have let pub games drag out on to see if it ever makes a difference, it never does.
Until you reach a point in the game where you are tight on item space and can benefit from BOTH the +16 STR/Agi and your damage and/or skillset scales very very very very well with 10% procs, then you can make it. Popular heroes that typically benefit from this is SB considering his massive damage output just with a quick BoT and dual chance proc with his animation. Late game sniper might too.
Morphling benefits from the sole fact that anything to boost his POS 285 base ms is a god send.
On January 29 2008 11:02 Ack1027 wrote: His attack does extra damage to towers because of the actual animation type.
WTF man?
It's true. You haven't noticed? Lina uses the catapult animation from regular wc3. Same applies to Furion and TB in meta. You never noticed they take towers a bit faster?
The animation itself, the missile arc, weapon type(artillery/missile/normal), projectile homing(or not) have no connection with attack type. All heroes in DotA have attack type Hero. Since you say it's true, I tested it and found that TB in both forms deals the same damage per hit to towers(also the ranged form attacks slower, it has a base attack time of 1.6, while the melee form is 1.5).
On January 29 2008 11:02 Ack1027 wrote: His attack does extra damage to towers because of the actual animation type.
WTF man?
It's true. You haven't noticed? Lina uses the catapult animation from regular wc3. Same applies to Furion and TB in meta. You never noticed they take towers a bit faster?
The animation itself, the missile arc, weapon type(artillery/missile/normal), projectile homing(or not) have no connection with attack type. All heroes in DotA have attack type Hero. Since you say it's true, I tested it and found that TB in both forms deals the same damage per hit to towers(also the ranged form attacks slower, it has a base attack time of 1.6, while the melee form is 1.5).
Thanks for testing it. I guess I was wrong on this one. But still I can't shake that feeling everytime I watch pro reps of lina or I play tb myself.
This is probably because they attack faster than most heroes(lina with her active at high levels, while TB is agility and both forms have lower than the average BAT which is 1.7 seconds) and their projectile looks heavier, which definitely has some psychological effect.
haha i just found this thread in the dxd forum last night about random dota things, people mostly post the unknown and rare dota mechanics you usually don't see in gameplay:
1). Casting Freezing Field in front of a tower makes the tower hit the iceblocks because they're summoned dummy units.
2). Using a tango on Abaddon around the 400 hp mark triggers Borrowed Time.
Centau'rs "Return" deals 10 dmg to towers when it attacks him
Tidehunter regens LESS from tangos due to Kraken Shell
if a prophet teleports and jug is ulti'ing there is a chance jug may follow its cool but you die to fountain, same with sb
if you die while you're tossed in the air with tiny and rooted with treant at the same time, you hero will revive floating until the next death.
If you cast Fatal Bonds (and rock, but that's optional) refresh and cast bonds again, they stack. Also, bonds is capped at 6000 damage to stop 1,000,000 dealt by Culling Blade.
If you Frost Bite first, then toss the hero glides back like he's Moonwalking about 1100 distance.
pretty sure this has been mentioned, but spamming s with sb while attacking perma bashes the opponet, thd spams auto fire like no tomorrow, ursa's ult stacks since the damage gets decided beforehand so you can basically kill an immobile hero in like 3 seconds if you spam s like crazy and have his fast attk skill on, and SA is near impossible so don't bother since the opponet has to be facing away.
those are some examples of ones i found more intriguing haha
if you die while you're tossed in the air with tiny and rooted with treant at the same time, you hero will revive floating until the next death.
We had that happen in a game with TL people. We had tiny and rylai on the scourge side (i remember paper playing with me as scourge). And testie + some more where sent. tiny tossed a neru and i frostbit'd him in mid air. He revived as a giant floating neru. It got fixed after we did it again
if you die while you're tossed in the air with tiny and rooted with treant at the same time, you hero will revive floating until the next death.
We had that happen in a game with TL people. We had tiny and rylai on the scourge side (i remember paper playing with me as scourge). And testie + some more where sent. tiny tossed a neru and i frostbit'd him in mid air. He revived as a giant floating neru. It got fixed after we did it again
Juggernaut and SB's ult will follow through anything, if the timing's right. That includes, in addition to Furion's teleport skill, scrolls of town portal, boots of travel activation, blink, leap, hooked target... well, anything.
On February 01 2008 01:50 BlueRoyaL wrote: haha i just found this thread in the dxd forum last night about random dota things, people mostly post the unknown and rare dota mechanics you usually don't see in gameplay:
1). Casting Freezing Field in front of a tower makes the tower hit the iceblocks because they're summoned dummy units.
2). Using a tango on Abaddon around the 400 hp mark triggers Borrowed Time.
Centau'rs "Return" deals 10 dmg to towers when it attacks him
Tidehunter regens LESS from tangos due to Kraken Shell
if a prophet teleports and jug is ulti'ing there is a chance jug may follow its cool but you die to fountain, same with sb
if you die while you're tossed in the air with tiny and rooted with treant at the same time, you hero will revive floating until the next death.
If you cast Fatal Bonds (and rock, but that's optional) refresh and cast bonds again, they stack. Also, bonds is capped at 6000 damage to stop 1,000,000 dealt by Culling Blade.
If you Frost Bite first, then toss the hero glides back like he's Moonwalking about 1100 distance.
pretty sure this has been mentioned, but spamming s with sb while attacking perma bashes the opponet, thd spams auto fire like no tomorrow, ursa's ult stacks since the damage gets decided beforehand so you can basically kill an immobile hero in like 3 seconds if you spam s like crazy and have his fast attk skill on, and SA is near impossible so don't bother since the opponet has to be facing away.
those are some examples of ones i found more intriguing haha
You really need to visit the Mechanics section of D-A.com and read their stickies.
CM/ES/Undying mid game combo actually a lot scarier than it looks cause of the reasons you mentioned. Jugg's ulti always follows TP from my experience. Fatal Bond's can't kill so its still a bad skill
Oh and SB + Pudge + Dark Seer are the only heroes that can cancel Panda's ulti after its been cast.
One more, you can cast during Pudge's hook, if you time the animation right with a stunner you can cancel the Dismember after he casts it on you, I know Skeleton King do this thanks to his stupid delay which makes the window a little better, Harbinger use to be able to, but I am not sure after they sped up his skills.
Probably the most interesting one, at least for me, is Doom's model and his problems with items near him, apparently Devour and the values associated with that skill screws it up and its not a graphical model issue.
On February 01 2008 04:36 rpf wrote: Wait, so if SB goes to ult me just as I teleport, he'll teleport with me to the fountain and die?
I knew it was possible for a long time, but a couple of weeks ago it actually happened. I totally laughed my ass off. I really should compile some video with shit like that (e.g. spectre meets luna in woods and disperses 3 of luna's ult in a row to instakill luna).
Panda as in the electric panda? Anything that forces movement will cancel that, no?
- Axes destroy creep waves. They kill the ranged creeps in one hit at level four, and bring the melee creeps down in health enough to be killed in only a couple of hits. Would an arcane ring be worth it to spam axes?
- His attack speed generating skill would work nicely with any chance on hit ability, I would think. Maybe a basher or an SnY would be worthwhile? I really don't like SnY, but I could see it being useful on BM.
You guys will laugh, but I've never bought a necro book. I hardly even know what it does. I know there's an active mana burn ability, a passive mana burn ability, and one of the two summons does damage to the thing that kills it. I know the level three summons have true sight.
So basically get it to counter clinkz, weaver, riki, etc.?
most people jungle bm because he's incredibly effective with axes and his hawk lets you grab runes easily and prevents you from being ganked. i usually just rush bottle -> necro then after that either go heart to tank or possibly dps but usually just tank. i wouldnt get arcane i dunno necro gives you e nough mana and bottle is fine, thats about all you need. basher and sny? its pub safe, but dont be buying those for more serious games you'll get destroyed
On February 01 2008 15:02 rpf wrote: You guys will laugh, but I've never bought a necro book. I hardly even know what it does. I know there's an active mana burn ability, a passive mana burn ability, and one of the two summons does damage to the thing that kills it. I know the level three summons have true sight.
So basically get it to counter clinkz, weaver, riki, etc.?
Warrior Necro has feedback passive and Last Will (Hurts thing that kills it) Funny story Southlight killed himself on my necro today, after running half the map from it, he turned aorund and shot it twice and died.
Archer Necro has Speed+Attack speed increase, and an active mana burn
On February 01 2008 15:02 rpf wrote: You guys will laugh, but I've never bought a necro book. I hardly even know what it does. I know there's an active mana burn ability, a passive mana burn ability, and one of the two summons does damage to the thing that kills it. I know the level three summons have true sight.
So basically get it to counter clinkz, weaver, riki, etc.?
Warrior Necro has feedback passive and Last Will (Hurts thing that kills it) Funny story Southlight killed himself on my necro today, after running half the map from it, he turned aorund and shot it twice and died.
Archer Necro has Speed+Attack speed increase, and an active mana burn
Yeah, that was a great game. I remember thinking how good it was to have a necro on our team when South went Lothar's on sniper. Then he kills himself. XD
On February 01 2008 15:13 BlueRoyaL wrote: most people jungle bm because he's incredibly effective with axes and his hawk lets you grab runes easily and prevents you from being ganked. i usually just rush bottle -> necro then after that either go heart to tank or possibly dps but usually just tank. i wouldnt get arcane i dunno necro gives you e nough mana and bottle is fine, thats about all you need. basher and sny? its pub safe, but dont be buying those for more serious games you'll get destroyed
So how would you build item wise and skill wise to jungle? I'm guessing stout/tangoes to start, then build into a vanguard, and go axes/summon for skills?
On February 01 2008 15:13 BlueRoyaL wrote: most people jungle bm because he's incredibly effective with axes and his hawk lets you grab runes easily and prevents you from being ganked. i usually just rush bottle -> necro then after that either go heart to tank or possibly dps but usually just tank. i wouldnt get arcane i dunno necro gives you e nough mana and bottle is fine, thats about all you need. basher and sny? its pub safe, but dont be buying those for more serious games you'll get destroyed
So how would you build item wise and skill wise to jungle? I'm guessing stout/tangoes to start, then build into a vanguard, and go axes/summon for skills?
Bottle Axes/MapHawk
control the rune creep pull try to hit 2+ camps wtih every axe gank at 6
Necro's nice because it does so much damage. Special abilities aside, each of these suckers will do about 50 damage per hit to a hero. With beastmaster ult, they can do a crapload of damage, probably more than a dagon could.
On February 01 2008 15:56 rpf wrote:Yeah, that was a great game. I remember thinking how good it was to have a necro on our team when South went Lothar's on sniper. Then he kills himself. XD
T_T
What items on Templar Assassin? All I know is Cats said "you should get Deso" the first time I played her, except I played her today and I basically never used it on a hero (cuz I was trapping them down from far away, I wasn't really paying attention to what MY hero was doing, except attack moving it closer and closer). I ended up going Deso -> BoT -> Heart, but that seems really random (and threadbare).
i dunno i jungle bm kinda weird ive only seen one legit replay where there was a good player jungling a bm and that was a long time ago so i dont remember how but basically my item is usually start with nothing (if someone on my team chickens) and if im scourge i just wait til 2 min kill that weaker creep camp near mid-top then run towards bottom and usually im just in time for a creep pull. the camp in the middle where there's always those strong creeps like ursas centaurs and ogres i usually pull that camp like 2-3 times and leave it til later while im farming the other two in sets of two. so like the left side (the one with the weaker camp) i can hit both with axes, and same with the two that are vertically aligned on the right side of the sentinel jungle.
imo you dont need stout shield to jungle bm ive never had any problems myself without one. i usually rush necro straight after bottle (w/o boots) so as you buy the parts you can just send them in with your chicken, i start first with the belt for the hp boost. when your quillbeast is higher levels it actually can tank a bit so you can switch off taking hits between your bm and your beast when you kill off the tougher creeps. my skill build is usually axe, call, axe, call, axe, roar, call, call, axe then stats til later in the game because stats > the passive increase in attack speed.
of course a good bm will always have their bird flying around and that definitely shouldn't be a problem for us starcraft players - 0-;; i mean... 2 units to control? - _-;;;;;;
This thread is beginning to become laughable....mainly rpf since he keeps asking questions about heroes and items we've already gone over in this 29 page long thread.
So today I talked to one of the best chinese dota players for real and obed another really good guy play qop. The first dude told me he gets bottle, two bracers, euls, boots, then guinsoo, and never gets preseverance. I learned how to play qop for realz by watching the other dude who was sick so now i'm gonna own from now on thnx.
Euls is good on QoP because you can gank combo most people at low lvl. Euls gives mana regen which you need to spam spells + blink. You can at low level blink nuke ,euls (cooldown of spells + mana regen) -> nuke again when he lands. hit hit hit since hes slowed by poison and keep blinking.
On February 01 2008 15:56 rpf wrote:Yeah, that was a great game. I remember thinking how good it was to have a necro on our team when South went Lothar's on sniper. Then he kills himself. XD
T_T
What items on Templar Assassin? All I know is Cats said "you should get Deso" the first time I played her, except I played her today and I basically never used it on a hero (cuz I was trapping them down from far away, I wasn't really paying attention to what MY hero was doing, except attack moving it closer and closer). I ended up going Deso -> BoT -> Heart, but that seems really random (and threadbare).
That does seem odd, but think about it. You hit someone with deso, hide, and pop out and hit them again. Doesn't the armor reduction result in less mitigation on that extra attack out of hiding? I'm not sure if that works, but hey, deso is a wonderful damage item.
On February 01 2008 23:47 IntoTheWow wrote: Euls is good on QoP because you can gank combo most people at low lvl. Euls gives mana regen which you need to spam spells + blink. You can at low level blink nuke ,euls (cooldown of spells + mana regen) -> nuke again when he lands. hit hit hit since hes slowed by poison and keep blinking.
I never thought of that. I'll have to try it. I always try to go Linken's on heroes like QoP, who are relatively fragile. :/
Nitpicky question: when you're going to go eul's, what do you buy at the start? Do you buy the void first after that? I ask because on heroes with spammables, I usually go sobi/tangoes at the start, but then run into inventory space issues if I'm going eul's, so I'm wondering if it's just better to save for the void first or whatnot.
I go bottle first. Allows to blink into a gank where you will take damage / lose mana so bottle helps on both sides. Also runes early game help a lot to stay in lane + gank more.
Then depends, if they have lots of weak heroes and i want to gank a lot i get a void first. If they have lots of nukers/stunners i get a bracer. But usually i go bottle -> void -> finish euls. Boots in between or after.
On February 01 2008 15:56 rpf wrote:Yeah, that was a great game. I remember thinking how good it was to have a necro on our team when South went Lothar's on sniper. Then he kills himself. XD
T_T
What items on Templar Assassin? All I know is Cats said "you should get Deso" the first time I played her, except I played her today and I basically never used it on a hero (cuz I was trapping them down from far away, I wasn't really paying attention to what MY hero was doing, except attack moving it closer and closer). I ended up going Deso -> BoT -> Heart, but that seems really random (and threadbare).
That does seem odd, but think about it. You hit someone with deso, hide, and pop out and hit them again. Doesn't the armor reduction result in less mitigation on that extra attack out of hiding? I'm not sure if that works, but hey, deso is a wonderful damage item.
Not sure now, but i remember when Lanaya first came out people said that you could get different reactions regarding -armor stack. Depending on hwo you "comboed" -armor would stack or not.
Frankly, one of my favorite builds on most int heroes is Linken's. Sure, the Eul's or Guin is great damage and regen, but then again the +stats and spell dodge is amazing. Plus the regen on the pers/linken's is amazing.
Horrible first item, the parts to Linken blow too much ass right now as a first item, expensive as shit too, 2300 means you can get a dagger or 400 more to Staff, 1750 means you have options to go for a dagger, get a staff and boots and TP into a lane with 2 clarities to share/use when you move. Maybe it'll get better but doubt it with the new Mystic Staff items.
My problem (and I think a lot of people's problems) with the item is that its too expensive making hard to fit into people's item builds and/or farming it in time to make it worth it.
I mean if the guy is gonna run away from a Blinking QoP, that Linkens isn't going to help catch them anymore than an Euls would.
yeah i was gonna point out that it's a bit expensive as a main core item and all it gives you is a lot of health and mana but there's way cheaper initial items you could buy that gives you everything you need eg 2 bracers. i would only consider buying linkens as a situational item depending on their heroes. if they have a lot of heroes with strong target nukes like lina lion sniper etc i might consider it.
there's only a few heroes i would ever consider buying it for anyways, some like qop and morph for reasons that are pretty obvious. they already both have a form of blink so they dont need a dagger and they both benefit from the +stats better than a lot of heroes.
i heard in one of the 6.5 betas they were testing changing the linkens cd down to 20 or 30 seconds. if they actually do when it comes out i think we'll be seeing it more often but still not that often. it's too easy to work around that one time negation, just have another hero use a relatively useless spell on it to set it off and then you're back to being an easy target again
oh yeah i've been thinking about this for a while on the best way to micro your necros. a lot of people just have them activated then go on to chase or whatever with all of them targetting thehero. i was thinking of just have them all attaack and after your archer mana burns have it block the hero as it tries to run while the rest are pounding on it. this is obviously only in a kind of theoretical situation where it would be 1v1 because if you're ganking with more than just yourself you probably wouldn't need to but yeah - 0-;; after the archer mana burns it doesn't deal that significant amount of damage to heroes anyways right? i think it's piercing damage so that gets reduced by hero type armor i think.. correct me if i'm wrong.
if you really want to know who dominates with necro really easily is imo bane haha it's so imba it's not even funny. activate necros -> ult -> necros are pounding on them and what the hell - _-;; he's gone before you know it hehe
Yeah I thought about the change for linkens when you first showed me the change logs and reached the same conclusion:
Its too damn expensive as a mid game item and doesn't do enough for the hero, only great on a really hard hitting hero since they can just ignore you or dink the Linkens sometime later. Sven comes to mind but BKB is enough against pretty much all casters for him, maybe on 2nd item on Lanaya when she becomes league legal and maybe on Luna mid game because Glaives farms faster than chinese gold farmers on WoW.
and maybe on Luna mid game because Glaives farms faster than chinese gold farmers on WoW.
hahahahahaha ;p
Yeah, but it's true. I usually get a couple wraiths on Luna, and then my glaives just destroy creep waves. I don't even have to try to ladt hit after about L7.
I have a question, is there a way to make qop attack faster? or does it already have a really fast attack animation, what if you a move, s, a move, s, would that accomplish anything?
On February 02 2008 09:45 zulu_nation8 wrote: I have a question, is there a way to make qop attack faster? or does it already have a really fast attack animation, what if you a move, s, a move, s, would that accomplish anything?
On February 02 2008 09:45 zulu_nation8 wrote: I have a question, is there a way to make qop attack faster? or does it already have a really fast attack animation, what if you a move, s, a move, s, would that accomplish anything?
On February 01 2008 15:56 rpf wrote:Yeah, that was a great game. I remember thinking how good it was to have a necro on our team when South went Lothar's on sniper. Then he kills himself. XD
T_T
What items on Templar Assassin? All I know is Cats said "you should get Deso" the first time I played her, except I played her today and I basically never used it on a hero (cuz I was trapping them down from far away, I wasn't really paying attention to what MY hero was doing, except attack moving it closer and closer). I ended up going Deso -> BoT -> Heart, but that seems really random (and threadbare).
That does seem odd, but think about it. You hit someone with deso, hide, and pop out and hit them again. Doesn't the armor reduction result in less mitigation on that extra attack out of hiding? I'm not sure if that works, but hey, deso is a wonderful damage item.
Not sure now, but i remember when Lanaya first came out people said that you could get different reactions regarding -armor stack. Depending on hwo you "comboed" -armor would stack or not.
Refraction is imba
Desolator affects the attack on which it is applied to the target, there is no need for a prior hit.
The only thing that depended on how you combo it was the magic damage reduction items with skills, you had to get the item first and level the skill after that. This is now fixed with triggers, so it's not a problem.
On February 02 2008 09:45 zulu_nation8 wrote: I have a question, is there a way to make qop attack faster? or does it already have a really fast attack animation, what if you a move, s, a move, s, would that accomplish anything?
She has the BEST attack animation in the game, what are you hoping for!
On February 02 2008 14:45 paper wrote: shield takes too long to wear off and do dmg ; )
Actually shield owns in wtf mode. You cast 10x shield on urself and charge in. Obviously in wtf mode everyone nuke u... and well... your 10x shield, although theoretically blocks 2000 damage, only blocks 200, as they do not stack. However, they do deal 2000 damage and all of them break at once. So they all die xD
Had 3 games today in a roll with roomate, went for EUL on meepo. Godly item. We gank together, binds one with web, eul the other. Wack wack wack one dies. Other one drops down, binds with web, wack wack wack other dies.
I really suspect EUL is superior to sheep stick. I am uncertain if I really should just take eul apart and rebuild it w/ new recepe. Is it worth it? Any comment?
What about nercrobook on Meepo? Massive micro fun? While we're at it add help of dominator for more units! And manta!
On February 02 2008 21:01 evanthebouncy! wrote:I really suspect EUL is superior to sheep stick. I am uncertain if I really should just take eul apart and rebuild it w/ new recepe. Is it worth it? Any comment?
They have their different uses. Eul is nice for taking someone completely out of the fight for a longer period of time, but Guinsoo is better if you intend on actually *killing* that person. Eul knocks out certain buffs (like Sven's ult) so it does have a tendency to find some specialized uses. Kinda depends on what you need it for. I believe in a game against Testie playing Sven I kept using Eul, never turned it into a Guinsoo, just to keep taking out his ulti every chance I got.
since you guys refused to play with me today because im too good, i spent the day practicing on chinese ladder and with chinese forum people, my qop got better i actually know what ganking is now.
I joined the plu dota qq group, which is the dota group of a chinese forum much like TL. I learned many interesting tidbits about chinese dota cultures, for example, it's considered unethical to play with your friends in the "noob" pub rooms, they call that "black shop" which means conspiracizing or w/e. The dota groups name is called the plu black shop and there have been times in games people have accused us of knowing each other and acting like as if that's super wrong and we should leave asap or something.
lol i disagree with koreans being weird. i scrim and play ihs with korean clans a lot on uswest they're all mannered and their skill level is surprisingly exceptional.
you don't get to see all your stats and stuff (the ending game board) unless you stay til the end when the tree or throne dies. and why would you get mad at them staying? when they're right about to die and they're staying, it gives you more chances to play around and feed on them it's fun =] i'm of course talking about pubs haha
On February 05 2008 02:20 BlueRoyaL wrote: lol i disagree with koreans being weird. i scrim and play ihs with korean clans a lot on uswest they're all mannered and their skill level is surprisingly exceptional.
you don't get to see all your stats and stuff (the ending game board) unless you stay til the end when the tree or throne dies. and why would you get mad at them staying? when they're right about to die and they're staying, it gives you more chances to play around and feed on them it's fun =] i'm of course talking about pubs haha
It's exactly why they are weird blueroyal. Who the hell has a people that are all mannered and gosu? Must be something wrong, because that isn't healthy.
Haha yeah now that you mention that I remember a game where I was playing with heen and they accused me of maphack in Korean and he picked up on it and a long conversation of Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan:
On February 05 2008 18:18 {ToT}Strafe wrote: Haha yeah now that you mention that I remember a game where I was playing with heen and they accused me of maphack in Korean and he picked up on it and a long conversation of Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan: Heen: Villan:
Followed. Can't read korean:p
Every replay of Heen's he showed us had that. I thought my WC3 was bugged before I figured it out. ;;
Say I have a hero that I want to get a scepter on, like Rhasta, Zeus, or Leshrac, for example. Now, obviously scepter doesn't give regen, so I obviously want some regen to be able to spam more effectively. My question is: do I buy a sobi at the start and leave my base without any branches, or do I just save up and buy a void stone and delay my boosters?
I always go 2 tango/5 branches at the start now, unless I'm going arcane or vanguard, in which case I go 2 tango/RoD or stout, respectively, and then however many branches I can afford. This is a bit more difficult if I'm going sobi first, as then you can't really afford any branches unless it's RD.
So if I go tangoes/sobi I go to my lane with no stats, and often that leaves me very vulnerable to harass, as I'll have 50-100 HP less than my teammates. ;;
On February 06 2008 00:06 rpf wrote: Hm, I have another (nitpicky) question:
Say I have a hero that I want to get a scepter on, like Rhasta, Zeus, or Leshrac, for example. Now, obviously scepter doesn't give regen, so I obviously want some regen to be able to spam more effectively. My question is: do I buy a sobi at the start and leave my base without any branches, or do I just save up and buy a void stone and delay my boosters?
I always go 2 tango/5 branches at the start now, unless I'm going arcane or vanguard, in which case I go 2 tango/RoD or stout, respectively, and then however many branches I can afford. This is a bit more difficult if I'm going sobi first, as then you can't really afford any branches unless it's RD.
So if I go tangoes/sobi I go to my lane with no stats, and often that leaves me very vulnerable to harass, as I'll have 50-100 HP less than my teammates. ;;
Going scepter first is bad for your health. Most of the heroes that can use Scepter have more important items to get like say the three heroes you listed:
Rhasta - Blink Dagger is a must, two talis/bracers can hold over until mid game. Lesharc - Health/Mana (Mana more) and Blink, he farms well so it really doesn't matter. Zeus - Arcane to Blink.
I stated before Scepter is bad because you can't effectively farm it fast and the rewards aren't great. So my advice to you is to determine how comfortable you are laning with the hero, then get tangos, clarities, branches, circlets as you wish. RoR and Sobi aren't really that great unless you plan on pumping stats so Sobi can scale quickly for you in early-mid game.
That makes sense. I'm noticing that basically everyone buys a dagger in higher level games to avoid ganks.
I guess the whole bracer vs. branches thing is just preference usually. I've stopped buying circlets as starting items, and I go tangoes/branches to "feel out" the game, and then I'll get a bracer or two if I think I'll need them. Is that how most players do it?
I'd only consider a fast Agh on Lina and Ogre Magi... Lina if you can gank really well without Blink (thus delaying the Blink, as the higher damage output earlier is more lethal), and Ogre Magi because he kinda needs it.
Otherwise the effect of Agh actually isn't that useful... you can actually delay it even on Lesh :<
No hero should get Aghanim's before dagger I only do it on Ogre in newb games when they're letting me go 'Chinese Gold Farmer' mode. And of course I get dagger right after it.
The problem with Aghanim's is the staff which costs too much. Or rather blink dagger is too good to pass up on. One of the most common ways of ganking starting mid game is blinkdagger -> stun so they can't react. And if only sand king has a dagger and lina, for example, doesn't, there's a problem. Dagger is more effective offensive than defensive so keep that in mind.
Sadly, dagger is now widely known as a necessity and it's going to be nerfed again Personally cd to 45 sec and mana cost to 100 should be enough of a nerf but I hear they're making it 60 sec cd (?)
As for starting items, you should only get RoR if you're planning to get a 2nd or an early hood (bristleback solo). I recently solo'd luna vs magnataur in mid lane and I expected mag to come so I went double RoR and that worked out ok. Tangos are more useful in keeping your hp closer to 100% so you can gank/avoid dying. Also tango juking is fun
The reason I get so hung up on starting items is because whenever I ask, people I perceive as "good" players always tell me to go tangoes and branches. But then when I play with them, they go bracers and it seems contradictory.
I just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/
IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP.
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :|
Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc.
You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game.
Yeah, I get what you mean. I always hated the "standard" two bracer/boots thing, as after you get your first core item, you usually end up having to sell a bracer to make room for pieces of your next big item. It's such a waste. At least when you're forced to sell a single branch, you've only lost 27 gold, which is negligent when that point in the game comes.
I mean, if you buy five branches, that 285 gold, and plus five to all stats. If you go circlets, the best you can do is plus four to all stats for 370 gold. One last hit negates selling two branches, and by the time you sell one branch it's completely insignificant anyhow.
I don't know, I just get so confused because I still see people I'd see as "good" spamming bracers when people at their level just tell me to go branches and see what's really needed. :/
It sucks spending 1020 gold on bracers just to sell them 10 minutes later when branches would have been more efficient.
On February 06 2008 04:45 rpf wrote: The reason I get so hung up on starting items is because whenever I ask, people I perceive as "good" players always tell me to go tangoes and branches. But then when I play with them, they go bracers and it seems contradictory.
I just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/
Bad habit to get into, I use to have the habit of going for 2 of starting sets. Adapt your item builds, even your starting ones to the heroes you are playing against and playing with. Bracers are needed if you are constantly being focused in fights, otherwise you can just grab a few circlets or branches.
On February 06 2008 05:20 paper wrote: IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP.
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :|
Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc.
You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game.
But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi.
Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early.
Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early.
Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later).
On February 06 2008 04:45 rpf wrote: The reason I get so hung up on starting items is because whenever I ask, people I perceive as "good" players always tell me to go tangoes and branches. But then when I play with them, they go bracers and it seems contradictory.
I just played a game with Ziz, Testie, etc., and half of them had bracers or talismans or something. They seem like such a waste; they just get sold halfway through the game. :/
Bad habit to get into, I use to have the habit of going for 2 of starting sets. Adapt your item builds, even your starting ones to the heroes you are playing against and playing with. Bracers are needed if you are constantly being focused in fights, otherwise you can just grab a few circlets or branches.
I totally agree. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people who is very methodological, and so my mind naturally loves things that work out well. I tend to characterize heroes by their main stat, their attack type (ranged vs. melee), and their spell types (spammable, chain casted, etc.). The game doesn't quite work that way, so I tend to get hung up on stupid things.
starting items for me would depend on the hero and the early-game situation.
branches are good on heroes that you wouldn't need to make any bracers/band/nulls on because they're really cheap and give a quick boost to hp/mana early game. heroes like qop or jug are an example of where i would probably just get branches because they benefit well from the extra mana pool but they need to save gold for their mid-late game items.
bracers imo are really situational and dependant on your hero. if your hero has really low hp might as well grab one or two, it can really save you. i remember playing this game laned vs lina/sven and we were getting our asses rocked til we bought some bracers - 0-;;
Yeah, heroes like puck and medusa have really atrocious starting HP (less than 415 or so), so if not bracers, some other form of stats or health is absolutely needed. (Although, medusa is different in that she had mana shield with is effectively HP, so she may not be the best of examples.)
I prefer to get bracers/bands/talismans as more of a reaction than a "standard build."
On February 06 2008 05:20 paper wrote: IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP.
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :|
Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc.
You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game.
But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi.
Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early.
Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early.
Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later).
Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough."
The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_-
Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item.
On February 06 2008 05:20 paper wrote: IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP.
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :|
Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc.
You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game.
But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi.
Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early.
Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early.
Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later).
Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough."
The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_-
Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item.
Wow, you don't really pay attention playing DotA do you? Look at Necro's base damage, yeah ok, 44-48 pretty low and his animation isn't the fastest in the world, he doesn't have a stun like Lina, his spell requires him to charge towards the enemy early but he really doesn't have the health/mana to do it effectively. So logically you are going to get Sadist to return mana for a spell that you probably won't be able to use effectively, instead of going for stats which help your hp and mana issues, yes thats the logical thing to do with hero that gets one of the lower int growths in the game.
And level 3 is a popular time for dual lanes to make a pass at one of the opposing heroes.
2 Bracers >>> Boosters, I already proved that in my previous post. Lets put it this way, every time I have seen Necro used in leagues, no one has ever leveled Sadist past one.
You are not going to charge in to harass. What the fuck? Why even get death pulse if you can't use it? By your logic, you might as well go stats and diffusal aura because necro apparently can't do shit and has to play defensively. You will use death pulse and you will kill creepS using it, mitigating the cost substantially. Sadist is essentially regen, and regen > higher pools early game.
And just because level three is "popular" means you should do it. What the hell? If you can't make a pass, then you don't fucking do it, especially when you essentially claim that necro can't do shit.
Your proof was shit, and rpf doesn't play in leagues, as if leagues were the end-all to dota mechanics.
Bracers and stuff are good because they are cheap to build and help your character in general. They add damage which hels last hitting / survival / mana pool / etc.
I have been in tons of situations where im left with 50 hp or so with 1 or 2 bracers in my inventory. Without them i would have died. pudge for example is bound to die sometimes when you ge into a abig fight. You have a nice Hp but not as other tanks, your are usually targetted first to stop dismember hook rot whatever. So you need extra HP. Also you need extra hp if you are ganking other tanks with mroe HP than you.
Some heroes benefit a lot from this items. Harbringer more mana + damage + ulti power, Troll more damage + HP (shitty hp and damage), Necro for last hitting for mana, more mana pool, more hp -> everything helps you survive.
I love buying them on heroes who shine in early mid game, they give you a little edge to abuse your momentum.
On February 06 2008 05:20 paper wrote: IMO, two bracers are a waste of money in the games you're playing because you can just level up & get stats to raise HP.
Just get a point booster if you're int/(range)agi or a vit booster if youre (melee)agi/str if you're in dire need of some HP. :|
Reasoning: same cost, same benefit, less space, can be used later for heart, vanguard, skadi, soul, etc.
You shouldn't look to testie/zizou etc. for perfect advice or as a level you're aiming for -_- They're still learning as well, and shooting for what they are today will just cripple you later. Think about this shit on your own and experiment. DotA is still a changing game.
But sadist aura > stats. Oh hi.
Sadist aura...no...last hitting with Necro is hard enough without having a 150+ mana costing spell that early.
Vit booster....no...two bracers cost less for marginally less HP and more EHP (1.08*HP), and more int. Not to mention regens and possibly +12 is big damage early.
Point Booster situational buy, personally I get this if possible early for Lesh, Necro and other heroes that I might remotely consider making Scepter later (much much much later).
Last hitting is hard enough? What kind of logic is that? You could probably say that for 90% of all the heroes if lyte's attack animation / dmg is "hard enough."
The hp regen is sooo negligible, even more than your 1.08 * early game HP, and +12 only applies ~1/3 of the time. The only redeeming factor is the +mana (although point booster does that too, and better), but, oh, hi sadist aura. You're not going to be spamming your skills at level 2. -_-
Obv, buying a point/vit booster every game is using the same train of thought as buying two bracers every game, but it was advice tailored to rpf because HP is something noobs are always lacking and the boosters help gear them toward a higher tier item.
The necros attacking delay is awful. On some 50ms or less games i play its not a big deal maybe. But when you also deal with 200ms + necro delay attack + not big attack, heroes with a good base damage will deny you a lot. Those items help necro a lot imo on a close game.
+ HP + damage for deny + mana for casting. Cheap. Parts can be bought as starting items. What else could you want : O?!
Nobody is really saying they're bad, just that they aren't always a necessity. I mean, think about it: say you go bracer x 2 on some hero. In that game, maybe you'll need those bracers to stay alive. Maybe you won't need them at all, or maybe you won't need them at all. I'd rather buy branches at the start to "feel out" the opposition and decide if I need any bracers at all, and how many, rather than just blindly buy them at the start when I may not need them.
On February 07 2008 07:12 paper wrote: His animation is not bad.
You are not going to charge in to harass. What the fuck? Why even get death pulse if you can't use it? By your logic, you might as well go stats and diffusal aura because necro apparently can't do shit and has to play defensively. You will use death pulse and you will kill creepS using it, mitigating the cost substantially. Sadist is essentially regen, and regen > higher pools early game.
And just because level three is "popular" means you should do it. What the hell? If you can't make a pass, then you don't fucking do it, especially when you essentially claim that necro can't do shit.
Your proof was shit, and rpf doesn't play in leagues, as if leagues were the end-all to dota mechanics.
His damage coupled with his animation makes him not so good, animation = more than the projectile animation, its the character animation, thats the whole point of animation canceling and why Void has a horrible animation.
Look, the game in lanes is more about harassing than CS, any noob can farm in a lane, not many people can stay in a lane. My point about Boosters is that its really not as cost effective for support heroes over Bracers so you should avoid them until you figure out how to work them into games.
Necro "can't" do shit because his skills require him to be up close, in other words, hes not a back line nuker like Zeus/Lina. If you feel comfortable charging against heroes early game with a 450 base HP hero go for it. So Sadist, as good as it seems, is less effective than Stats because you aren't going to spam Pulse effectively early game, you need both HP and Mana (especially for a chance at chain casting your ulti @6), your damage/int isn't great and doesn't grow well either. Additionally, Pulse doesn't clear waves (or even the Ranged for that matter) so its effect is further diminished.
If you want to think about it a different way, say between the levels of 12-15 and you have your Euls/Book/Dagon or w/e, would you rather have Sadist 4 whose regen really isn't worth that much (or anything) at that point or +8 stats? See the problem with Sadist? It doesn't scale well at all for both against creeps and with your own items.
My point is that the way Necro works and plays, you'll benefit more from stat pumping early over Sadist. To put it another way, its the same exact concept with Sand King as no decent SK player goes Caustic over Stats early. And thats with Caustic >>>> Sadist usefulness.
On February 08 2008 01:58 rpf wrote: Nobody is really saying they're bad, just that they aren't always a necessity. I mean, think about it: say you go bracer x 2 on some hero. In that game, maybe you'll need those bracers to stay alive. Maybe you won't need them at all, or maybe you won't need them at all. I'd rather buy branches at the start to "feel out" the opposition and decide if I need any bracers at all, and how many, rather than just blindly buy them at the start when I may not need them.
Thats why you need to learn when you know you need to buy branches over circs. Either way, +HP means less trips to fountain and more survivability so its never a horrible buy unless you are carrying.
I can see both sides of the argument here. Even though I poke fun at Zelniq's hardcore stats necro from time to time I'd go maybe 2 x 2 attribute points before sadist in a real game since the +stats are most helpful in the earliest stages of the game. However, sadist remains a very useful skill.
The way I see it, +stats is much easier to make up with items than it is to get mana regen (or mana cost reduction on death pulse) comparable to sadist. Also, not all lanes are going to be 'difficult' even if the skill level of the game is high. It's what makes necrolyte who he is, fast leveling and farming, which makes him one of the better late game casters.
So what do you guys think of SnY now? It's marginally better, but I'm still not too fond of it.
Also, what do you guys think of mael/mjoll? I've been seeing it more and more lately on different heroes. It seems like it's great for farming, as the burst AoE of the CL proc is nice.
And fuck the new Dagger of (no) Escape. I know why they changed it, but now heroes that slow are impossible to get away from.
That kind of forces you into a Lothar's, which still sucks, and is just now considerably more expensive. ;;
S&Y is very usable now. 16% movement speed instead of 10%. 16% maim instead of 10%. Wow. Cost hasn't increased.
Lothar's is now more expensive, but with 20% movement speed instead of 10% movement speed, it's much more usable than it was before. Still not definitely a "will buy again" item, but it's improved.
On February 08 2008 19:30 BottleAbuser wrote: S&Y is very usable now. 16% movement speed instead of 10%. 16% maim instead of 10%. Wow. Cost hasn't increased.
Lothar's is now more expensive, but with 20% movement speed instead of 10% movement speed, it's much more usable than it was before. Still not definitely a "will buy again" item, but it's improved.
My biggest concern regarding Lothar's is how easy it is to counter.
I mean, sure, they can't ward the whole map, but they can ward key areas of the map where fights are likely to occur, such as their mid ramp leading to the third tower, or they can just carry wards and drop one whenever a fight starts.
So then it's like, I just spent 4000 gold on an item countered by a 200 gold static ward. ;;
Or worse yet, the person you try to avoid with Lothar's just buys a gem and continues to farm you.
You'd be surprised at how much of a pain in the ass Lothar is to play against. Even in IH games (pubstomp it's almost certaintly a good-to-go), I had a tendency to whip out Lothar on Sniper, and it kept saving my arse. As Testie put it, they wouldn't have even bought that 200 gold ward in the first place, and now given the lack of a better alternative for belated escapes, you can really force them to drop them around. Also they don't last forever, so if you get Lothar relatively early and you keep popping up, you're forcing them to buy/place wards, which is a fair return on the investment itself (unless you're playing against like, me on THD, in which case you shouldn't get Lothars anywhere near me, because it won't work ;p).
More often than not, sentry wards aren't really placed at "key areas" unless it's the middle, because they're expensive (200 gold for two small areas every 6 minutes) and you'll be stuck expending a greater portion of your income for them if you just spam them. Thus, you'll actually find that a lot of people place the ward AFTER you activate Lothar, in which case you can make a rough guess as to where they'll place it and, a lot of times, especally with the 20% movement buff, make a run for it, as you'll be so far at the edge of their ward you're safe again.
Obviously it won't save you if you get stunned -> warded, but meh. There's really no better alternative if you're worried about that.
Except for warding! If you're worried about ganks, you can buy wards for a 200 gold investment, ward around you, and you're pre-emptively safe again! O_O!
EDIT: Wait, it's more expensive? What the frick? How? And why? O_O!?
Yeah, I guess that's true. I just don't like how the item is nice 1000 gold more expensive, and doesn't combine automatically. (I have a pet peeve about items that take three pieces to form and don't combine automatically due to inventory space constraints. It's not such a big deal now that I don't spam bracers blindly , but still.)
Edit: South, it's now Alacrity x 2, Claymore, and recipe. It's around 4000 gold.
Yeah, it's really a stupid and unnecessary change. The item needed a buff to begin with. They barely buff it, and then make it cost another 20% more or something.
1000 + 1400 + 1400 = 3800 for old LE: +21 Dmg + 10 Agi + 15% WW
1000 + 1000 + 1400 + 650 = 4050 for new LE: +21 Dmg + 21 Agi + 20% WW
Can you people not do math properly?
Either way, its 250 gold for 11 more Agi (1.57 Armor = 9.42% increase in EHP) and 5% more WW. Not a bad scale for 250. Plus 2 BAs makes it easier for low damage AGI heroes to close the gap in mid game.
On February 09 2008 07:50 Judicator wrote: 1000 + 1400 + 1400 = 3800 for old LE: +21 Dmg + 10 Agi + 15% WW
1000 + 1000 + 1400 + 650 = 4050 for new LE: +21 Dmg + 21 Agi + 20% WW
Can you people not do math properly?
Either way, its 250 gold for 11 more Agi (1.57 Armor = 9.42% increase in EHP) and 5% more WW. Not a bad scale for 250. Plus 2 BAs makes it easier for low damage AGI heroes to close the gap in mid game.
On February 09 2008 11:08 Ack1027 wrote: I thought you were going for sniper? Either way, he wouldn't agree to any other hero? There's plenty that could beat viper.
Edit: Grats, I wish I could win money from dota 1v1's =/
In 5s definitely, Viper is (still) pretty widely used in 1v1s because orb walk is so effective against solos.
On February 09 2008 10:22 {ToT}Strafe wrote: The girl backed out when I picked SF vs viper;(
Played another 1;1 for 250$ which was RAPE.
I also heard from reliable sources that testie considers himself much better than RobbieV at dota. Lulz
"how do you lie so much?
I never said you sucked, but you asked me if we play a 1v1 dota match (because I was looking for action) what odds i'd give u, i thought about it for a second and said 2-1, you said okay how about for $500, and i said sure.
I thought this was same hero vs same hero match (this is actually to YOUR advantage), but you wanted to do different heroes. Right then and there I reserved the right to deny any hero because there are a shit load of combos.
We talked about my hero being viper because he is one of the best solo heroes. Then you gave this pool of heroes: silencer/sniper/Terrorblade, krobelus, medusa, luna. I lol'ed and agreed to it because this is a horrible pool of heroes and i know there's no way you can micro the silencer correctly even though he could take viper.
I bugged you for a day+ about what hero. You then told me that you'd be sniper. I then tried to message you for 1-2 days asking when we would play.
You then told me you said you didn't want to do sniper, and you wanted to do shadowfiend. Now having gone against the pool you said and the hero you chose, you picked the single hero I did not want to play against (see back to in the beginning where i reserved the right to deny any hero). But I was still going to give you action on shadowfiend, but because you chose SF I had to do a couple of practice games to see the build I was going to do. SF is not as good as viper, but is MUCH easier to CS with than viper and if he gets an early game advantage and a quick bottle and plays half-way decently I could have a much harder time. I was still confident I could beat him, i just needed to figure out my build.
1/31/2008 1:21:17 AM Robbie Evan alright lets paly saturday then 1/31/2008 1:21:25 AM Robbie Evan im going to my parents for 2 days gonna play on laptop whichs ucks a bit 1/31/2008 1:21:28 AM Robbie Evan saturday im back
(This is us talking on wednesday going into thursday)
On thursday evening I saw mig/rob were on, I messaged both of them wanting to know if they wanted to play with me and 2 friends. Mig then insta said "why are u backing out of ur bet game with robbie", etc etc. Rob told mig lies and mig was heckling me, rob then told me lies and was heckling me, they called me out on not playing him then and there.
they didn't stop, i went on serious tilt, for some reason I had to explain my actions numerous times? After this went on for a good period of time and it was the most unreal retarded 3-way convo where rob didnt stop lying to me and kept lying about things that mig said to him about me (i hope ) I finally said fuck off, this has been dragged out and changed long enough and not fun anymore, and blocked him.
rob is a huge faggot and took all of the fun out of something really simple.
he lies more than some american girls say 'like' =[
I only called you a faggot, mig was lied to by you and we straightened it out at the end (i think?)
....
hi strafe"
Can't believe Strafe is actually spreading this shit where Frink isn't present.
For some reason Strafe feels the next to say this shit to anybody who will listen. It's easy to slander somebody's name when they aren't around to defend themselves.
Well to be fair, I did only get one side of the story. I had no idea it was with TL/LiquidPoker people. He asked me for 1v1 help, which I gave of course because I would give that to anyone just out of goodness.
Thanks for clearing that up I guess. I always felt like whatever strafe said was a bit shady only from reading his blog/dumb adventures with girls. However, FrinkX has always, ALWAYS been a douchebag no matter what I'm reading from him.
I was actually offered a part in this where I could win money, if I had known it was Frink to begin with I would've played that shit that very day, but whatever seems like this is a huge misunderstanding/debacle so hopefully you guys sort it out and one guy owns another and wins money like was originally supposed to happen.
Btw, I don't really know the level of your guys play but Shadowfiend almost certainly will destroy Viper 1v1 mid lane imo.
Frink has an issue with being too emotional, cocky and easily angered a lot. He can be a huge douchebag. I'm friends with him and I recently didn't talk to him for a week and a half because he was being an asshole.
I don't know him to be much of a liar though. Tendency towards being a douchebag and being dishonest aren't the same.
If you want to play Frink I can see if it can be set up, if you'd like
Other than that I just thought it was unfair that only 1 side was being told. Just wanted to let both sides get their say.
How is one side told? I haven't told anything, didn't even mention frinkx's name. No matter how you want to twist the story, the result is that he got challenged, accepted and backed out. I really don't want to repeat the same bullshit over and over(liquidpoker, msn)
Edit; I didn't even see that freak actually brought it up instead of Frinkx. Totally unnecessary and please don't let him bring the drama here.
EPT
such a shitty build
?
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