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How can I make you see the real things in Dota are free?
Branches are stupid.
Lesharc's Lightning storm can be cast on creeps in front and still hit heroes behind without any chance of retaliation.
Lighning storm has a cooldown of 5 seconds.
Diabolic erdict is lesharcs most powerful skill, does most damage, and if the target is solo it is doomed.
Arcane ring is probably the best item for lesharc early, does help even more if you have a lane partner.
Aghanims is as expensive as tarrasque, little more even, and HP is much better for lesharc since his ulti won't improve that much.
If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank.
If you have a partner stun may be the better choce though.
I don't really know how desolate works, but it isn't pure +45 damage, it probably ignores armor or something because it kills heroes fast enough no matter what their items are.
Disperse is only 16% and isn't that good early, deslolate is on ilusions too, but I don't say your skillchoice is bad it's just different.
Radiance vs?
MoM 1950, 2 items pretty easy to get.
I said armor that means 1400 for +10 armor to be tougher.
2 bracers ~1000.
BoT for Spectre is a waste of money, this hero creeps pretty bad and you should rather get threads for attack speed. You have haunt to teleport on heroes.
MoM gives you movement speed essential to catch heroes daggered and running away.
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diabolic edict is totally useless early-game, especially if you're soloing with that build of yours. why? leshrac has shitty hp = why the fuck would you run near the enemy. take the stun for edict because if the opportunity arises, stun > edict
If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank.
that's true for anyone, really, and getting that HP/armor status instead of improving his ult's mad dps (while getting a significant hp boost) through agh's is a waste for leshrac
disperse is ridiculously good and itll proc more than the number of times you'll ever be alone with an enemy hero
MoM is just asking to be raped
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So what do you guys buy at the start?
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On July 19 2007 04:00 paper wrote:
diabolic edict is totally useless early-game, especially if you're soloing with that build of yours. why? leshrac has shitty hp = why the fuck would you run near the enemy. take the stun for edict because if the opportunity arises, stun > edict
If you make a balanced HP/Armor hero he will become very tough, hard to kill and a pushing tank.
that's true for anyone, really, and getting that HP/armor status instead of improving his ult's mad dps (while getting a significant hp boost) through agh's is a waste for leshrac
disperse is ridiculously good and itll proc more than the number of times you'll ever be alone with an enemy hero
MoM is just asking to be raped
1 Level of Stun, Lightning/Edict (Depending on your lane), then Stats. I dont max out Stun till later where it actually matters, but in your lane that extra damage isn't worth the extra mana cost.
And Agh is not a waste on Lesh if you can farm it in a respectable amount of time, SB helps Lesh in every regard.
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You can creep whole lane on using erdict+storm = 300 mana(you can't do that with stun+lightning), while using ulti your mana cost is higher, but you aren't depending on cooldown.
Aghanims vs Tarrasque, Tarrasque double HP. Better ulti doesn't help that much, extra mana is handy but mana regen is low from aghanim.
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The gold at start is 3500 split between the players in the team.
You also spend gold, when picking or repicking a hero, the exact cost depends on the mode.
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
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What's so annoying about DotA discussions is the lack of open-mindedness in such a young game that is going through constant development and experimentation in many aspects. If the 'pros' haven't done it, then it's obviously newb. Conversely, if the pros have done it, it's textbook material. This often ends up doing more bad than good. It's quite ironic how DotA players are less creative than the BW community in a game that has more possibilities.
SnY does not outright suck. That's just faggot propaganda by bandwagoning forum retards who talk more than they play. It might be overused but it definitely has its pros. So what if it gives moderate amounts of everything. Some heroes need just that.
Personally, I go lightning and edict on leshrac. Edict is the most damaging skill that can be used both defensively and offensively, just like lunar eclipse. Arguing that leshrac is too fragile to ever get near opponents is a faulty argument that can be applied to just about everyone. It's completely situationtional and you're assuming that the lane stays secluded the entire time. What about ganks?
As for item builds, I go ror --> 2 bracers --> boots of travel --> aghanim --> (variable, often blink dagger)
You don't really need (nor can you afford it) heavy mana regen early on since your mana is almost entirely directed vs players and NOT in creeping.
When it comes to spectre, I have to admit I'm not very informed about her (it's a damn female, not it or he, you guys must be both blind and deaf). I'd have to agree it's all about dagger/dispersion early game. She's an incompetent bitch after all. Hope your teammates can babysit you while you rush to radiance.
rpf, for fuck's sake, start thinking for yourself  You might actually benefit from learning first experience what works best instead of getting fed 'build orders.'
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It's not like I'm not trying things myself. I've experimented with some things myself, but I just wanted feedback from others is all. 
I watch what others do, and I try to see why they do it. I look at my own abilities, and try to figure out if I'm going to need more stats, regen, IAS, IMS, etc.
I just like to see what others think and do.
I know it seems like I'm basically going, "TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT DO," but I'm really not.
But it does seem like an RoR at the beginning is a great idea, as regen is pretty important, I've found, to staying in a lane.
For a while I tried going dual bracers (I'd buy circlets/tangos and then go boots/finish bracers later), but all that did was buy me another minute while I absorbed another nuke before I'd have to make a fountain run.
After trying going regen, I can see why RoR is a good idea. Plus, if you intend to go mek, or if you need to go hood, you can do it.
By the way, is it just me, or does regen really suck late game unless you have a lot?
I played a game earlier where I had hood, linken's, and a heart. My regen was nuts, and so it was good, but I realized I've never had it that high before, and I've always noticed how shitty my regen was with just a bfury or whatever.
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Bless you Heen... at last someone openminded.
I think s&y is a good item, gives Hp attack speed and briliant movement speed bonus.
Maim is a handy orb effect.
Too bad many heroes that would benefit from it already have a orb effect - like magina, ursa or broodmother.
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
Never forget that more than often majority is wrong only because people are easy to influence.
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Just a RoR should last you the whole game for most heroes.
4 hp/sec is a generous amount. It's enough for even the most damage soaking str heroes. I think pudge is the ONLY hero who I get more than 4 hp/sec regen on.
Regen does 'suck' late game since its purpose is to let you stay in the field. Late game it's rare that regen makes a difference in survivability.
Anyway, you will need some form of regen or else smart opponents will take advantage of you. A RoR is a good deal that helps you stay in lane. You will get 187 back when you sell it so it's not that big of an investment at all. I sometimes carry emergency tangos depending on -ma.
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rpf if you are in a solo lane regen is imperitive to have, only 1 RoR will do, but usually if i solo, reguardless if i'm not a str hero, i'll get 2 circlets, 2 gloves of str, and then 4 charges of tangos, that usually lasts me long enough to do anything ;P
Btw, regen is only good usually for early to mid game because when you get into late mid game you usually have treads or something that can get you faster to the fountain and back than using regen, also you need the space later for items depending on who you are.
On the SnY subject, i do think that it's one of those " staple items" people think is good for their hero when it's even better to save another 1200 to get butterfly or satanic, it's really only good on heroes who benefit from both of the parts of the item, one of them being Spirit Breaker.
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oh cmon, god fucking damn it Heen you type too fast ;(
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That was the lamest excuse I've ever heard, when someone posts crap and tries to defend it, lol.
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Stop attacking each other. To each their own.
SnY isn't a great item. It's not a bad item. It's an easy to afford item. Each part is the +6 items are 450, the +10 items are 1000, the recipes are 600, and the SnY recipe is 1000. That's easy to afford. Saving for a 3400 eaglehorn isn't.
Is the item itself worth all of that gold? No. You can do better for the gold. But, some heroes really benefit from the IAS, IMS, maim, and so on.
The orb itself isn't something that will proc readily. It's only 10%, so unless you have good AS, you can't expect it to proc much.
Conclusion: decent health, decent IAS, useful IMS, modest damage, but don't buy it for the orb. I still strongly believe there are better items for just a little more money, but the SnY is still decent in its own right.
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On July 19 2007 08:45 Dave[9] wrote:
oh cmon, god fucking damn it Heen you type too fast ;(
o_O
I type pretty fast if I know exactly what to say but I usually have to stop and think if I write more than a paragraph >_<
I'm back home right now so I don't have my computer and that leaves downloading/watching movies and surfing the net as my only options during my free time
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On July 19 2007 08:22 rpf wrote:
By the way, is it just me, or does regen really suck late game unless you have a lot?
........
no kidding
4 hp/sec is not really going to affect you when you have like 1500 hp
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I may have been a little harsh on SnY, as it is quite good on some melee gankers like Spiritbreaker, but after watching a game where every person and their chicken had SnY, it is overused. The slow is good, but the biggest thing is the increase in MS, which is why it's good for melee gankers. The thing is, you have to compare it to other items, and it almost always loses to something else.
You can creep lanes with Lightning Storm + Edict. Lightning Storm won't hit invis units, or fog of war, whereas his ult does. Two seconds of his ult with Aghanim's is more than Lightning Storm. If you want to gank, Split Earth is better than Edict. The main thing Edict has is humongous damage to towers, but since it's random, you need to clear out everything beforehand. Aghanim's helps his ult a lot, not a little, a lot. You gain 500 mana and 30 intelligence, which is another 20 seconds or so of your ult, which is about 2700 effective damage. Obviously, you shouldn't be alive if it lasts that long, but if their entire team decides to target you, then you're team should be able to win
Split Earth is good. Chain stun it, gank with it, use it in team battles. If they waste time trying to dodge it in a team battle, your team should be able to win. Edict is a good spell, and can really hurt if you can catch them alone, but that's not that easy against competent opponents. Most of the time, where Edict would kill, Split Earth would also, whereas the stun from Split Earth can grant you more killing opportunities, that Edict wouldn't.
I don't recommend going dispersion or desolate early with Spectre. Get Stats instead. However, as the game progresses, Dispersion will offer a lot more than Desolate, even Stats does. Desolate does 15/25/35/45 damage through armor, at level 4, Stats give 8% ias, 130 hp, 8 damage, and 1 armor.
Regeneration doesn't really suck late game. You'll have enough life that they can't kill you quickly, and the longer they take to kill you the more life you have. Obviously, you can calculate it, ie I have 10 hp/sec and i expect to live for 10 seconds, which is 100 life. It also allows you to initate a fight, take hits, fall back, regen your life, and go back into the fray.
rpf, spending your money now doesn't mean its easier than saving it up. I think you just said it's hard to not buy items. In the end, the amount of gold is the same, and I usually don't buy that much until my first big item, I stay out in my lane or go ganking.
I'll admit that I'm not the most open-minded person about this game, I have tried different builds with some characters, but I usually just play the classic builds, or the really gay builds like permabash Troll or ministun Sniper. But SnY on Clinkz, and another person had 2 SnY's on Faceless Void. They don't stack.
EDIT: Branches don't suck. Really, they're very very good. If I hate 200 item slots, and limited gold, I'd buy 200 branches. Maybe 1 BoTs.
EDIT: Unless you don't plan to be there in team battles, Bots is a must. It helps you live, it allows you to defend, heal and push, or vice versa. His ult does have a cooldown, and BoTS helps you chase a lot more.
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On July 19 2007 08:32 LastWish wrote:Bless you Heen... at last someone openminded. I think s&y is a good item, gives Hp attack speed and briliant movement speed bonus. Maim is a handy orb effect. Too bad many heroes that would benefit from it already have a orb effect - like magina, ursa or broodmother. Show nested quote +
P.S. LastWish, when no one agrees with you, this definitely means that you are absolutely right! lol...
Never forget that more than often majority is wrong only because people are easy to influence.
Magina goes Vanguard -> Heart, usually. He's too fragile otherwise. Ursa masses health items (HoT); it's how he deals damage. Broodmother doesn't go SnY since Incapacitating Bite is already an orb effect. Maim would be nice...if it would proc more than 10% of the time.
On July 19 2007 00:00 LastWish wrote:
terr13 you are just so stupid...
God help you.
Sorry but if you play it just from replays and stuff you're never going to understand it, and my lesharc is one of the best.
This hero doesn't need aghanims, because his ulti is his minor skill till you get this in your head your not going anywhere.
But ok play vs me and i'll show you.
Sure split earth is good, but you'll hardly get to target any hero because it has like 1.5 casting time.
But scorpion and split earth may work just fine, i'm solo mid leshrac and you'll taste my vengeance.
Same goes for spectre, desolate is one of the best skill if hero come far enough to do it. You'll never get radiance in real game, but those items i've said are not that hard to get.
Uhh, don't be stupid. You're saying don't get Split earth because you can't aim it? Don't use that as an excuse, learn to predict where they're going to end up, and target the spell there. If that were the case, don't get LSA for Lina, it's too hard to cast. Freezing Field for CM sucks because it's channeling, and they'll just run away. I'm not going to use Epi for Crix because I have to channel it for 2 seconds. However, there are ways around that. For CM, just Bite -> blink -> FF. Lina, the same; just predict where they're going to be. For Crix, channel the Epi, then blink in. You say Desolate "is one of the best skills if the hero come far enough to do it." In other words, one, they have to be stupid enough to gank you by themselves on your side of the map. Two, it's extremely situational. All they have to do is run back to their creeps, which will be coming the whole time, and Desolate is useless. Dispersion + stats is much more preferable, since the stats bonuses aren't situational, and Dispersion provides a nice ministun to interrupt some channeling spells, and also reflect damage back at them, allowing you to turn around and chase for the kill. Desolate just gives you a very situational damage bonus.
Lots of people get Radiance in a real game. Spectre is one of them. And don't throw crap around like "my Leshrac is one of the best." It's obviously not, unless we're retarded. Leshrac doesn't solo; as a fragile Int caster, you'll be getting ganked up your ass early game when you're playing against anybody competent, and you'll be unable to farm up all your lategame items due to your inability to stay in your lane.
MoM isn't gotten on fragile heroes like Leshrac. Taking 20% extra damage is not what you want when Crix decides to blink in with Epi.
Eh. SnY is usually regarded as "the worst expensive item." I mean, it costs 5100 or so for what?
+16 Str
+16 Agility
+16 Damage
+10% IAS
+10% MS
10% Maim
So let's look this over. The stat gains are quite mediocre for the cost, the damage gain is almost negligible, as is the additional IAS. The only areas where it truly shines is the +10% MS, and the Maim, IF IT PROCS. And the chances of that are very low. Granted, SnY is useable on heroes like Spiritbreaker, and a few others who might benefit from the MS (Bloodseeker might come to mind). "Morphling can use it!" you might say. However, for an additional 400 gold he can get a HoT, which gives him +35 Str, 300 additional HP, and 11 hp/sec regen. The 300 extra HP is about 15.7 Str points worth of HP, and 11 hp/sec is pretty significant. Additionally, Morphling can just transfer any amount of Str he wants into Agi, so he'll benefit much more from a HoT than a SnY. So in general, SnY is a mediocre item; most heroes will benefit much more from getting any of the other tier 3/4 items. Other items give more for the amount of gold required to make them. Ah, yes, the affordability cost. SnY is gotten by many, simply for the reason that it's extremely easy (compared to saving for a 3.8k relic) to farm up the bits and pieces of Sange and Yasha. So what does SnY have going for it? The MS increase, crappy maim orb that never procs when you need it to, and it's easy to save up for. Once you get better at DoTA (not saying you suck rofl, I'm quite average myself) it becomes increasingly easier to farm up for the larger items such as Reaver, Relic, Eaglehorn, etc., which build up for items that give much more than SnY gives.
In comparison, let's see what Skadi, the most expensive item after DR itself, gives:
+25 Str
+25 Agi
+25 Int
+200 HP
+150 Mana
30% slow (3 second for melee, 2 seconds for ranged, also procs 100% of the time)
SnY is 159.375 gold/stat. Skadi is 99.296 gold/stat. Not only that, but you get additional HP/Mana, and a slow that procs 100% of the time. I'd take that over maim any day. Still need that MS boost? Just shell out 2050 more for a Yasha, and there you have it. Besides, it won't matter as much, since you'll be slowing your target the whole time. However, with SnY, you have to hope that the gods are shining on you that day, since 10% is pretty damn small when you think about it (90% that it WON'T proc, and your target will get away).
BoT > Treads for one primary reason: the teleport it provides. It allows you to TP to one lane, push it in, then quickly TP to another lane and continue pushing (It's why you get treads w/ Furion). 25 extra MS doesn't hurt, either. So what do treads give you? 35% IAS? Meh, BoTs will help you farm up so much faster, since you shouldn't be needing the increased IAS while farming, and that only comes into play when you're attempting to kill other heroes. You'll still need BoTs on Spectre, not only for the MS, but the TP is invaluable for ganking, defending, and pushing. Your ult WILL be on cooldown, so you'll need to be able to transport yourself from one side of the map to the other; you can't rely on your ult as your TP. You might thinkg that the 35% IAS will help you kill someone that you're attempting to kill. Not so. When Spectre chases, she'll be getting one hit at a time; they won't stand still to let her hit them. Therefore, BoTs would be more useful in this situation. And if they're not moving, they're usually sprouted/stunned/netted/frozen, so you'll have a teammate whooping on them at the same time. If they're still alive after that, dagger + chase will kill. Desolate is utter crap on Spectre. They'll rarely be in a situation where Desolate will make a difference, since an equivalent amount of stats will more than make up the difference overall. Also, Dispersion is an excellent skill, since it deals back damage dealt in an AoE radius, not just back to the target. With a HoT, you'll find that when Dispersion does procs multiple times, the enemy heroes will be hurting. Radiance is gotten on Spectre for the farming capabilities, +60 damage, and the Immolation also comes in handy when chasing.
Just to emphasize it. You don't get treads on Spectre "cuz she sucks at creeping." When you creep, you should be last hitting, anyways, so that shouldn't be an issue. Neutrals giving you a problem? Learn to creep pull, and it's just back to last hitting again.
On July 19 2007 07:52 Heen wrote:
When it comes to spectre, I have to admit I'm not very informed about her (it's a damn female, not it or he, you guys must be both blind and deaf). I'd have to agree it's all about dagger/dispersion early game. She's an incompetent bitch after all. Hope your teammates can babysit you while you rush to radiance.
Of course. Spectre doesn't solo; but she does make an excellent lane mate. Dagger does moderate damage, and provides an 18% slow at level 4, which should be enough to chase and kill at around level 7-8. Survivability in the lane is not a huge problem if you go dagger/stats; it gives you a decent amount of HP to help counterbalance the fact that you're a melee hero. Stats over Dispersion early, since you won't have the HP to take the hist necessary to set it off. Dispersion is taken a bit later when you acutally have the life to take hits and let Dispersion proc.
Regen sucks late game? Not when you have 30-40 hp/sec regen. That can make the difference between barely escaping and dying outright.
For all of you who think Branches are garbage, I'll break it down for you. Let's compare it to all of the other basic starting items. Hell, let's compare it to all items that just give noticeable stats.
Branch - 19 gold per stat
Circlet - 30.83
Gaunlet/Slipper/Mantle - 50
Wraith Band - 38.3 (The reason Morphling goes Wraiths over Bracers)
Bracer/Null - 42.5
Belt of Giant Strength/Boots of Elvenskin/Robe of the Magi - 75
Ogre Axe/Blades of Alacrity/Staff of Wizardry - 100
Ultimate Orb - 76.67
Mystic Staff - 116
Messerschmidt's Reaver - 128
Eaglehorn - 136
Eaglehorn is 7.16 times more expensive than Branch in terms of Gold/Stat. Not that it matters, but hey, just something nice to know.
One could argue that Gauntlet/Slipper/Mantle gives it to 3 in a specific stat. However, for 21 additional gold, you get the same thing with 3 branches, and plus you get +3 to the 2 other stats. Branches > most things early game. Takes up too much inventory space? Just sell them back when you decide to start building your core items; by mid - lategame, branches will lose what made them so damn good early game, since you only have 6 inventory spaces. If there were unlimited inventory spaces, I'd just mass branches for the whole game, since they have the best gold per stat ratio in the whole game.
On July 19 2007 00:49 BluzMan wrote:
Man, I've just started the thing, randomed the Harbringer, and I'm really curious why noone has yet discussed this somewhat interesting hero. With some quick leveling in a bot game I quickly brought his orb damage to like 300 and ulti damage vs most heroes to something like 1000+. And he really plays unique and requires somewhat unorthodox items.
There's actually about two effective ways to play Harbringer: Astral/Eclipse and Orb/Essence. You'll eventually end up going both, anyways. I prefer going Astral, with one point in his orb for early harass, since Eclipse is a huge AoE nuke, and Astral gives you a free Euls. It's funny as hell when it gets to a point in some pub games that you can one shot a lot of heroes just with Eclipse. So my friend was laning against Meepos as Obsidian, and eventually Meepo couldn't even stay in the lane because after a few Nulls and a Mystic Staff, Eclipse would one shot him. Same with the Sniper on the other team. So eventually it gets to the point where you have BoTs, Aghanims, Mystic Staff(s), and you run around with a spammable 300 damage nuke, and Sanity's Eclipse, which is guaranteed death for most other heroes.
And to rpf: Just play a lot, and I mean a lot, and you'll begin to see what works, and what doesn't. When you start to feel comfortable with the level of pub games, try to find a group of people you can play with, and start some IHs (In House games), since organized gameplay is much more challenging than pub stomping. You'll find that usually a few circlets and branches paired with some tangoes and clarities is enough to get you by early game (it's what I usually start with), and you can take a few bracers (or wraiths/nulls) to increase your lane stayability and overall survivability until you can put together your core items.
One last note. Blink Dagger is excellent on almost every hero that can get it. Just to give a few examples: Nevermore uses it to properly place Requiem, Crix uses it after he channels Epi, CM uses it to place Freezing Field, Tidehunter uses it for Ravage, Enigma uses it for Black Hole, and so on. Blink also serves as one of the game's best escape mechnisms, and it's one of the main reasons a lot of fragile DPS heroes get it.
There's also a argument for Blink Dagger vs Lothars, especially for Nevermore. I used to play Nevermore quite frequently, and Lothars seemed like a good option, since you could get pretty gay OHKO kills with Requiem, and it seemed like a decent escape mechanism. However, that's only in pubs. In organized play, Wards > Lothars, and Blink is much more versatile once you become accustomed to the range of it. With Lothars, you can't move through cliffs, but with Blink, you can. Also, Lothars is 3800, which is quite pricey for a first item, while Blink Dagger is only 2150. Why would you get that as a first item? Nevermore badly needs an escape mechanism, since he has no stun, slow, or telepoprting skill of any kind. It doesn't help that he's very fragile early game, either. You also need one of the two to get in position for his ult, which is a massive AoE spell that damages and slows.
And so that concludes my wall of text.
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On July 19 2007 08:22 rpf wrote:It's not like I'm not trying things myself. I've experimented with some things myself, but I just wanted feedback from others is all. I watch what others do, and I try to see why they do it. I look at my own abilities, and try to figure out if I'm going to need more stats, regen, IAS, IMS, etc. I just like to see what others think and do. I know it seems like I'm basically going, "TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT DO," but I'm really not. But it does seem like an RoR at the beginning is a great idea, as regen is pretty important, I've found, to staying in a lane. For a while I tried going dual bracers (I'd buy circlets/tangos and then go boots/finish bracers later), but all that did was buy me another minute while I absorbed another nuke before I'd have to make a fountain run. After trying going regen, I can see why RoR is a good idea. Plus, if you intend to go mek, or if you need to go hood, you can do it. By the way, is it just me, or does regen really suck late game unless you have a lot? I played a game earlier where I had hood, linken's, and a heart. My regen was nuts, and so it was good, but I realized I've never had it that high before, and I've always noticed how shitty my regen was with just a bfury or whatever.
Not to sound gay or anything but after 10 pages in this thread this post is pretty annoying.
At least 3-4 people have proven that they know what they're talking about and have showed you and told you what items to get and how to go about getting which items for which heroes yet something like this comes from you...?
Imo you are basically asking ' TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT TO DO ' for each and every hero. Sure you may be saying only lich, magnus etc for now but what happens when you're done with them? You'll just quit asking item questions forever?
Seriously, just realize that you need to fucking play and see how items turn out in games. If you want to get better, play better players. This is the equivalent of asking what unit combo to use against enemies in starcraft. It's endless and there are many ways to reach the same victory.
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Saying something doesn't work just because your head is full of stats and numbers isn't very convincing.
You could say you have tried it and you think your build is better because of A and B.
Otherwise your teorycrafting arguments are null and void.
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EPT
