EPT[H] DotA items - Page 13
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paper
13197 Posts
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BlueRoyaL
United States2493 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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paper
13197 Posts
edit: uhh not you lololol i hate your name it messes up my lol'ing :'( | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I've yet to get a high level replay to work, so I don't know what I've done wrong. I'll figure it out later. I'm just curious how the "pros" buy at the start. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Anyway on the issue of regen [ specifically hp regen ] I disagree with what lololol said. The general golden rule is: Increasing max hp > Increasing Hp regen. However, this does not mean you should ' get as little regen as possible ' as lololol stated. Since your replays do not work I will tell you what ' pro ' team players usually buy to start with: One guy is designated to buy the chicken. It's usually a gank hero or a hero that's definitely going to be in a dual lane [ 2v2 or 2v1] and will be staying there. The guy who usually buys the chicken generally ends up using the rest of his money on consume-ables such as flask, tangoes, or clarities. Why? Here's the reasoning behind consume-ables: If you buy these you better be able to stay in your lane for a long ass time. And why not? You have 7 hp regen whenever you need it that cannot be interrupted [ tangoes ] you have a FOUR HUNDRED hp recovery item that requires not much skill to avoid getting hit. Clarities are bought in 2-5's and are for spammers like zeus who doesn't really need as much hp regen since he can last hit AND hit opponents from a very safe range with arc lightning/static field. The solo or carry hero you will find that he takes something like this: Two circlet tangoes Mantle/Slippers/Gauntlet and circlet and tango and maybe one clarity or another mantle/slipper/gauntlet 4 Ironwoods and 2 clarities and 4 tangos. The reason carry heroes get circlets are because they obviously if they solo they have more gold for themselves [ albeit they better know how to last hit ] so they will be able to get to bracers faster than the rest of their team. Some heroes like Queen of Pain require mantle sometimes because if you decide you want to use your skillset combo [ ss blink scream wave ] you will need the mana. With shadowfiend I usually get 4ironwood 2 clarity 4 tango. I think it's the perfect combination between stats and regen. 4 ironwoods allow me to start my last hit train going so my necromastery will be higher and the 4tango 2 clarity make it hard for anyone to push me back [ unless it's tri lane or kotl tauren ] Shadowfiend's shadowraze only cost 75 so the 2 clarities are more than enough for ample spams of shadowraze and there's very few combo's that will send fiend back with 4 tangos and a tower. Regen is definitely good late game. It doesn't die out at all as the game progresses. Naturally heart already gives you 11 hp regen a second ON TOP of your str base regen so I don't see how anyone could argue that.... Heart is one of the best and balanced items in the game imo. Regen will allow you take massive hits and fall back for maybe 5 seconds before you can go back in to unload the rest of your mana [ damage ] Of course you don't want a team of 1000 hp heroes with 20 hp regen going back and forth all the time in a team battle that would be ridiculously bad. Rather you'd want a team of say 2000 hp heroes with 8 hp regen. Just make sure that if you are going into your lane with Ring of regen and tango like you say you like to do you are in that lane for a fucking long time... like level 9-11 in -em or around level 10 in -ap. Even if you have no mana just hug your tower like hell and get every last hit you can. If you get ironwoods or circlets or stat items as you call them you are gearing yourself more towards getting kills so play accordingly. I mean hell with RoR/Tango you can still kill people but the mana given to you from circlets and ironwoods help more. | ||
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paper
13197 Posts
gosu+nubs vs gosu+nubs WAR BRAIN! (like star brain 8D) should we make a thread for games and names? XD | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
 I don't know what the problem with the replays is. It says I either don't have the map the replay was played on, or I just get a random error message.I guess what I'm learning now is when and why different starting items are good. It doesn't seem like I was too far off, either. I always either get 2 tangos/2 circlets (working towards bracers/talismans) or RoR/2 tangos (then go from there to other items) or all consumables (tangos, flasks, and clarities). The only thing I learned from WoW is that it doesn't matter how much damage you do, you do none if you're dead, so get some fucking hp. So that's what I try to do.  Thanks for the help, Ack. | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I'm curious though, why the AI bots always buy RoR/tangos. Maybe just whoever wrote the AI liked that buy plan. | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
If you're going for booster items, like the vit, energy, and point boosters, is it a good idea to then skip bracers? I'll give you a more specific example: I just played an ap where I went Zeus, and immediately went for arcane. I skipped my usual 2 tango/2 circlet build, and went 2 tango/2 clarity/RoProtection, then got my energy booster, finished the arcane, and got boots. But then, I went with 2 bracers, and then went soul booster. But that made me think: is getting a soul booster after 2 bracers kind of redundant? I mean, 2 bracers gives: 228 HP 78 MP 6 or 12 damage 6% IAS 12 Str 6 Agi 6 Int while a soul booster gives: 450 HP 400 MP 1 HP/sec regen 10% MP regen I think the soul booster is better overall, even if it doesn't give you any stats, but it's also much more expensive. Basically I guess I'm asking: if you're going soul booster, or if you're taking vit booster for an item, is it a good idea to skip the bracers since the vit booster gives you comparable HP? I'm sure you understand what I mean. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
For example when I play lich, I play him super-safe. I get Ring of regen and branches into mekansm first thing. Then I either go the necrobook build [ only against mana heavy or aoe lineups ] or the aghanims route which is the one I usually take. I get mek, then two bracers, then boots, THEN soul booster into aghanims. I don't really have an explanation for it other than that even with all those hp items Lich's damage comes from his nova and chain frost so basically I need to live enough to cast a chain and maybe 3-4 frosts and also mek twice during battles. I still find myself dying a lot even if I'm not completely focus fired even with that build. I would recommend getting mek 2x bracer for any kind of lich build. For someone like Zeus I think it would be okay to go straight for the boosters while skipping out on the bracers. Zeus has the luxury of being able to be far from a team battle and still have all of his damage potential. All of his spells have ridiculous casting range and static field is fucking 800 range. [ the same range as you have to be to gain experience ] The only times I have found myself getting bracers for zeus is if after I get my arcane I die at least twice. At that point I immediately get bracers because I'm obviously dying to something that's gonna effect me later too. You have to realize that blink dagger is essential on zeus and if you can you should skip bracers simply because: Offensively you have greater range than most anyone, yet still can deal your normal amount of damage Defensively, you can get away in a blink so why waste money on more hp..? Other's like maiden I skip bracers because her skill build involves stats and bkb so no need for bracers there. Lina I always get bracers. The way I build her I usually end up with more hp than str heroes though. Pugna always get bracers, too weak of a hero to skip out on bracers. Also one of, if not the highest intel growth in the game. [4 per level] Necrolyte bracers are do-able and I usually get them. Harbinger I get bracers even if I get aghanims simply because I usually use that hp from bracers to harass well. QoP it's usually nulls or bracers depending on how weak the team is and if I can survive a team battle after I drop ALL my spells. But usually I get skadi or necrobook on QoP anyway. I guess that covers most aghanim heroes. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
I guess my biggest problem is how I think. See, I need to have a "safe" build that I can default to if I don't know what to do. For a long time that was 2 bracer/boot --> BoT and heart/bfly/guin depending on primary stat. Now I'm starting to see how that can/does change drastically based on the hero, matchup, etc. So oddly enough, right now I'm having trouble with starting items, and some first items on specific heroes. That seems backwards to me so whatever. I usually just go 2 circlet/2 tangos (4 uses), but that's not good if I don't need/want bracers/talismans. So for a while I tried going more for regen, and copied the AI bot buy, which is RoR/tangos. It's great for staying in the lane, and is good if you're going mek/hood anyhow, but isn't quite so good if that RoR goes to waste later on. Like I said, I admit it's a psychological flaw that I need a safe, solid, default build, but meh. Once I get past that I think I'll be all set. Ack, what do you think of Axe/Juggernaut? I usually go Van/dagger on axe and I've been told to go vlad's/bfly on jugger. The high damage on jugger makes the lifesteal pretty good. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 24 2007 13:14 rpf wrote: Wow, Ack, you really know a lot about the game. I take it you've been playing for quite some time? I started playing DotA the day before 6.45 came out, so I'm really new. I guess my biggest problem is how I think. See, I need to have a "safe" build that I can default to if I don't know what to do. For a long time that was 2 bracer/boot --> BoT and heart/bfly/guin depending on primary stat. Now I'm starting to see how that can/does change drastically based on the hero, matchup, etc. So oddly enough, right now I'm having trouble with starting items, and some first items on specific heroes. That seems backwards to me so whatever. I usually just go 2 circlet/2 tangos (4 uses), but that's not good if I don't need/want bracers/talismans. So for a while I tried going more for regen, and copied the AI bot buy, which is RoR/tangos. It's great for staying in the lane, and is good if you're going mek/hood anyhow, but isn't quite so good if that RoR goes to waste later on. Like I said, I admit it's a psychological flaw that I need a safe, solid, default build, but meh. Once I get past that I think I'll be all set. Ack, what do you think of Axe/Juggernaut? I usually go Van/dagger on axe and I've been told to go vlad's/bfly on jugger. The high damage on jugger makes the lifesteal pretty good. Horrible idea, you are better off setting up an optimal build and then working down, safe builds gets you in trouble more than it helps. Think of it like this, if you fall behind, your safe build (which is worse than the optimal) isn't gonna help. If you are ahead, the safe build is worthless as its still worse than the optimal. Learn the impact of the item rather than a build. If you are farming like shit, you won't be saving up for a Relic/Radiance. If you are getting gold like crazy, then all the more reason to get a big item. Yeah how about you skip the Vlads period, in general its not that great of an item. Try diffusal on Juggs, it actually works better than people think it would. Hell even MoM is better than Vlads. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Well I guess I spent a lot of time thinking on my own through thousands of pub games because that's basically how I learned to play. It also helped to have someone to talk to dota about [ one of my clanmates ] he was never that good but was very knowledgeable about little details but at the same time I still figured out my own style to play. Though, the method in which I believe I improved the most was playing this one guy who was sort of a friend of a friend and for some reason every time we inhoused [ daily ] I would have to solo against him, and holy shit this guy was soooooooooooo annoying at dota. Not only annoying, but also pretty good but the way he played just taught me to deal with everything. To do this day, I've never met a more annoying dota player with EVERY HERO he plays. I started playing in 6.19b, that's the earliest map I played around 2 years ago. I'm beginning to worry though... I think I'm nearing a plateau in my skill and I'm running out of ways to learn how to get better on my own. Just gonna have to keep playing with better people =) For starting items and general item builds I'm past the stage where I have to think about it now, it's just very natural. Whatever I buy in the beginning is whatever I feel is right for the game and you gotta realize dota at a higher level is a lot more about how you play your hero. The builds you usually end up having on heroes probably end up the same a lot of times but even for the games that they change I usually just feel it out. My only real mid-to late game item purchase guideline is ' What item will make me and my team a stronger force ' For Axe vanguard dagger is a great build. For Juggernaut, my team usually makes me solo with him in pubs or inhouses and I've yet to play him in a league game but my build is 3x bracer into radiance right off the bat. Idk, I can't remember ever having trouble farming a relic with jugg even if I was solo'ing against 2 range heroes. clarity + blade fury is very strong. | ||
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rpf
United States2705 Posts
1. Why 3 bracers on Jugg? I know I asked this on like, page two, but is there some reason why you take 3? I usually see them in pairs, but occasionally I only see 1 or 3, so I don't know if the 12 str is some magic number or something. It's like how zealots with +1 attack kill lings in one less hit. It's just some intricacy of the game, and I'm just confused if there's some reason for that particular number of bracers or whatever. 2. How the fuck does the money work?! I know ar is 700 starting, and ap is 450 after buying a hero, but how does the gold buildup work based on whether it's em or non em? I'm just trying to figure out how much gold I have to spend in each mode and haven't had the time to figure it out. I'm just wondering how much gold you get every x seconds in each mode. I tried to figure it out, but it's irregular in em, as it seems to increase on multiples of 7, but also randomly increased at like 9, 44, etc. | ||
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