On June 18 2023 07:56 iamperfection wrote: Season 2 to address gem inventory? cant someone program that in a day? do we not have the technology?
They did say during one of the streams that they're developing Seasons at a staggered cadence with two different teams, so any fixes or changes would apply 2 seasons later. Personally I don't see how that would necessarily apply to engineering-related changes but that's their account.
Honestly, I don't mind the level scaling, diversity of builds, itemization, density/frequency of mobs/combat, or the monetization. I think the only thing that I really dislike is how Crowd Control can automatically kill you, where chains like frozen -> stunned -> terrored -> frozen -> etc. are literally impossible to avoid on occasion, as you mash your potion button for literally 3-5 full seconds but you've lost all ability for any inputs and just inevitably die. Am I missing an obvious solution to this "doesn't matter your skill level here; you're simply destined to die" issue? I think there's an elixir that grants Unstoppable, so maybe I can use it in cases like these?
Diablo 4 successfully recreates the feel of D3 RoS and I think that this was the goal for Blizzard. I think that in their eyes Diablo 3 was a major success, which just shows how out of touch they are and that they don't really care about it. After just a few hours on a fresh character, I have the same experience as I did during every D3 league start I participated in. Grind bounties for levels, then do rifts, then get bored and leave after 3 days.
What is even worse is that they are downgrading major systems in this edition. The loot and the skill systems are both a downgrade, somehow. Story was unbearably boring, I didn't care about a single character in it. Can someone tell me who were the act bosses without googling it ? On top of that they added some terrible systems. Open world grinding, horse riding and world bosses, just to name a few.
The paragon stuff is cool, I guess, but hardly a reason to stay and play for hundreds of hours.
If they want this game to have a different fate than D3, just a few months after release, they should really hit a home run with the first season. Because, if it's something like double treasure goblins or triple the shrines, this game is dead on arrival in my book.
On June 18 2023 20:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Honestly, I don't mind the level scaling, diversity of builds, itemization, density/frequency of mobs/combat, or the monetization. I think the only thing that I really dislike is how Crowd Control can automatically kill you, where chains like frozen -> stunned -> terrored -> frozen -> etc. are literally impossible to avoid on occasion, as you mash your potion button for literally 3-5 full seconds but you've lost all ability for any inputs and just inevitably die. Am I missing an obvious solution to this "doesn't matter your skill level here; you're simply destined to die" issue? I think there's an elixir that grants Unstoppable, so maybe I can use it in cases like these?
The solution is play a class that is either perm unstoppable like barb/druid or a class that has insane CC breakers like sorc. Or die. Its terrible endgame development of "danger". Dangerous situations should arise due to combination of mods. Sometimes randomness (i.e combination of mods). etc
Just having your lategame evolve around CC when entire classes can skip that... which is boring too, is bad design yep
On June 18 2023 20:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Honestly, I don't mind the level scaling, diversity of builds, itemization, density/frequency of mobs/combat, or the monetization. I think the only thing that I really dislike is how Crowd Control can automatically kill you, where chains like frozen -> stunned -> terrored -> frozen -> etc. are literally impossible to avoid on occasion, as you mash your potion button for literally 3-5 full seconds but you've lost all ability for any inputs and just inevitably die. Am I missing an obvious solution to this "doesn't matter your skill level here; you're simply destined to die" issue? I think there's an elixir that grants Unstoppable, so maybe I can use it in cases like these?
The solution is play a class that is either perm unstoppable like barb/druid or a class that has insane CC breakers like sorc. Or die. Its terrible endgame development of "danger". Dangerous situations should arise due to combination of mods. Sometimes randomness (i.e combination of mods). etc
Just having your lategame evolve around CC when entire classes can skip that... which is boring too, is bad design yep
The problem with sorc for example is that now you're taking 2-3 skills on your bar that maybe you don't really want to. Basically 2 panic buttons just because that have nothing to do with your build.
The game types I am drawn to the most are wrestling games ,PvE FPS/3rd person co-op games, and RTS games. I'm not an aRPG guy.
I rated the D1 and D2 combat as 4/10. I rated D3's combat as 5.5/10. I give the combat in D4 a 7.5/10. This is the first aRPG where I kinda liked the combat. It is no Fire Pro Wrestling, nor is it Borderlands3 when it comes to combat... but ... it ain't half bad. If AEW Fight Forever is bad I'll stick with D4 for a while.
I wonder if the change in combat style from D3 to D4 was motivated by attempting to please a more general audience?
Another article corroborating the wonderful information that "Diablo 4 is dropping all your seasonal busywork, praise Lilith. Diablo 4 seasonal characters will no longer need to rediscover the map or touch every Altar of Lilith to earn renown, saving you a whole lot of time and effort." https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/seasonal-reset
On June 19 2023 01:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The game types I am drawn to the most are wrestling games ,PvE FPS/3rd person co-op games, and RTS games. I'm not an aRPG guy.
I rated the D1 and D2 combat as 4/10. I rated D3's combat as 5.5/10. I give the combat in D4 a 7.5/10. This is the first aRPG where I kinda liked the combat. It is no Fire Pro Wrestling, nor is it Borderlands3 when it comes to combat... but ... it ain't half bad. If AEW Fight Forever is bad I'll stick with D4 for a while.
I wonder if the change in combat style from D3 to D4 was motivated by attempting to please a more general audience?
What change in style? It's almost the same except there are much less mobs around and your skills are on cooldowns which prevents you from having fun all the time.
On June 19 2023 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Another article corroborating the wonderful information that "Diablo 4 is dropping all your seasonal busywork, praise Lilith. Diablo 4 seasonal characters will no longer need to rediscover the map or touch every Altar of Lilith to earn renown, saving you a whole lot of time and effort." https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/seasonal-reset
I have a hard time to see this as a positive. They are removing not insignificant portion of the game for the start of the seasons, because it is boring. Why is it there in the first place then ? It's mind numbingly boring even the first time.
On June 19 2023 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Another article corroborating the wonderful information that "Diablo 4 is dropping all your seasonal busywork, praise Lilith. Diablo 4 seasonal characters will no longer need to rediscover the map or touch every Altar of Lilith to earn renown, saving you a whole lot of time and effort." https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/seasonal-reset
I have a hard time to see this as a positive. They are removing not insignificant portion of the game for the start of the seasons, because it is boring. Why is it there in the first place then ? It's mind numbingly boring even the first time.
There's literally nothing stopping you from exploring the world again, for fun. It's just not required for all the bonuses that you've already earned. There's also no law that says you need to ever do those things if you want to just play casually. Some people find completionist quests "boring", but many don't.
On June 19 2023 01:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The game types I am drawn to the most are wrestling games ,PvE FPS/3rd person co-op games, and RTS games. I'm not an aRPG guy.
I rated the D1 and D2 combat as 4/10. I rated D3's combat as 5.5/10. I give the combat in D4 a 7.5/10. This is the first aRPG where I kinda liked the combat. It is no Fire Pro Wrestling, nor is it Borderlands3 when it comes to combat... but ... it ain't half bad. If AEW Fight Forever is bad I'll stick with D4 for a while.
I wonder if the change in combat style from D3 to D4 was motivated by attempting to please a more general audience?
What change in style? It's almost the same except there are much less mobs around and your skills are on cooldowns which prevents you from having fun all the time.
I don't remember how the mob frequency compares to D3, but the mob frequency reminds me of D2, and I like that. The dungeons are nice combat-grinds, as they should be. There's also way more to do in the outside regions besides killing mobs (side quests, overworld events, etc.), compared to D2, and I like the fact that it's not *only* battling out there. It's a fun balance for me, but of course it's subjective.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that cooldowns = no fun, and I don't see D4 cooldowns as being a big deal. Besides bigger skills having cooldown reduction opportunities anyway (and I don't think it's bad that we need to be a little strategic instead of mindlessly spamming everything for free), there are still basic and core skills that have zero cooldown and the more traditional mana generate/spend trade-off. It's a little bit of everything, which I think is a cool compromise.
On June 19 2023 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Another article corroborating the wonderful information that "Diablo 4 is dropping all your seasonal busywork, praise Lilith. Diablo 4 seasonal characters will no longer need to rediscover the map or touch every Altar of Lilith to earn renown, saving you a whole lot of time and effort." https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/seasonal-reset
I have a hard time to see this as a positive. They are removing not insignificant portion of the game for the start of the seasons, because it is boring. Why is it there in the first place then ? It's mind numbingly boring even the first time.
There's literally nothing stopping you from exploring the world again, for fun. It's just not required for all the bonuses that you've already earned. There's also no law that says you need to ever do those things if you want to just play casually. Some people find completionist quests "boring", but many don't.
My desire to retain my sanity is stopping me actually. I still have unclaimed skill points and potion capacity in some zones... Fun is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of this grind. Just think about it. They have ~150 things that you have to run around the world and click on. And they call this "fun content" and even locked power behind these "features". Speaks a ton about how this game was designed.
On June 19 2023 04:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Another article corroborating the wonderful information that "Diablo 4 is dropping all your seasonal busywork, praise Lilith. Diablo 4 seasonal characters will no longer need to rediscover the map or touch every Altar of Lilith to earn renown, saving you a whole lot of time and effort." https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-4/seasonal-reset
I have a hard time to see this as a positive. They are removing not insignificant portion of the game for the start of the seasons, because it is boring. Why is it there in the first place then ? It's mind numbingly boring even the first time.
There's literally nothing stopping you from exploring the world again, for fun. It's just not required for all the bonuses that you've already earned. There's also no law that says you need to ever do those things if you want to just play casually. Some people find completionist quests "boring", but many don't.
My desire to retain my sanity is stopping me actually. I still have unclaimed skill points and potion capacity in some zones... Fun is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of this grind. Just think about it. They have ~150 things that you have to run around the world and click on. And they call this "fun content" and even locked power behind these "features". Speaks a ton about how this game was designed.
That is every computer game, ever. That's literally how the mouse and keyboard work. It's also how every console game works too: you press buttons on the controller, and stuff happens as a result. Maybe it's fair to say that fetch quests or exploratory quests can be boring compared to combat, but you don't have to do any side quests if you don't want to, and some people find the optional, additional ways to gain experience to be a fun change of pace every once in a while.
On June 19 2023 05:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I don't remember how the mob frequency compares to D3, but the mob frequency reminds me of D2, and I like that. The dungeons are nice combat-grinds, as they should be. There's also way more to do in the outside regions besides killing mobs (side quests, overworld events, etc.), compared to D2, and I like the fact that it's not *only* battling out there. It's a fun balance for me, but of course it's subjective.
The biggest difference between D2 and D3/D4 is that in D2 you had to use skills continuously. So even if mob density is similar the feeling of combat is not. In D2 at least in the earlier levels you had to use your skills multiple times to dispatch a group of monsters, in D3/D4 you press 2 buttons and everything is gone. At least in D3 you could use your skills all the time so you flowed smoothly between the groups of enemies whereas in D4 it's press 2 buttons to blow up a group and then try to find another group while the cooldown is going on or if this new group was nearby you aggro it and try to drag it into another group so you can blow 2 groups at the same time once your cooldown is back up.
What I'm trying to convey here is that in D2 and D3 you were pretty much constantly doing something in combat all the time. This idea of blow up things and then wait to do it again is kinda jarring. I'd really rather have no cooldown on skills and them do much less damage so you need to use them several times to dispatch a group or no cooldown and the same damage but then you need more mobs so you can go from group to group without too much empty running around.
Edit: For example, change Frost Nova to have 3 second cooldown (instead of 15) and make it freeze enemies for 1-2 seconds (not 6), then add a passive that lets you reliably generate mana from killing frozen enemies etc. This would make combat flow so much smoother...
On June 19 2023 04:17 Manit0u wrote: It's almost the same except there are much less mobs around and your skills are on cooldowns which prevents you from having fun all the time.
I like a yin and yang. strong and weak... a back and forth to the combat that cooldowns offer. The smaller mobs also make things more readable.
On June 19 2023 06:41 Manit0u wrote: What I'm trying to convey here is that in D2 and D3 you were pretty much constantly doing something in combat all the time.
I don't like constant non-stop offense with a constant click fest of moves.
Staying out of your opponents cross hairs for certain timings while you wait for your cool downs is fun. Inducing an attack or a dodge ( with a feint ) as you pretend to be strong when you are truly weak is also fun. Timing a big strong offensive move where you calculate your vulnerability is minimized due to the space around you ... that you created is also fun. Fire Pro Wrestling has a "breathe" mechanic that is really cool. You must "breathe" to recover.
Here is the kind of combat I enjoy most ... as explained by Conor Mcgregor
Fire Pro Wrestling, Def Jam Fight For NY and a few other wrestling games capture this form of combat quite well. Monster Hunter sometimes does a nice job as well.
In general, if i were to rank combat fun... 1) Fire Pro Wrestling // Def Jam Fight For NY// WWF No Mercy //WWF All Stars 2) Destiny 2 // Warframe // Borderlands 3 // Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order // Halo 3 // Monster Hunter 3) D4 4) D3 5) D1,D2.
Generally speaking, aRPG combat bores me to tears. The gap between (2) and (3) is pretty big for me.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out Blizzard altered combat in D4 for a more general audience.
On June 19 2023 05:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I don't remember how the mob frequency compares to D3, but the mob frequency reminds me of D2, and I like that. The dungeons are nice combat-grinds, as they should be. There's also way more to do in the outside regions besides killing mobs (side quests, overworld events, etc.), compared to D2, and I like the fact that it's not *only* battling out there. It's a fun balance for me, but of course it's subjective.
The biggest difference between D2 and D3/D4 is that in D2 you had to use skills continuously. So even if mob density is similar the feeling of combat is not. In D2 at least in the earlier levels you had to use your skills multiple times to dispatch a group of monsters, in D3/D4 you press 2 buttons and everything is gone. At least in D3 you could use your skills all the time so you flowed smoothly between the groups of enemies whereas in D4 it's press 2 buttons to blow up a group and then try to find another group while the cooldown is going on or if this new group was nearby you aggro it and try to drag it into another group so you can blow 2 groups at the same time once your cooldown is back up.
What I'm trying to convey here is that in D2 and D3 you were pretty much constantly doing something in combat all the time. This idea of blow up things and then wait to do it again is kinda jarring. I'd really rather have no cooldown on skills and them do much less damage so you need to use them several times to dispatch a group or no cooldown and the same damage but then you need more mobs so you can go from group to group without too much empty running around.
Edit: For example, change Frost Nova to have 3 second cooldown (instead of 15) and make it freeze enemies for 1-2 seconds (not 6), then add a passive that lets you reliably generate mana from killing frozen enemies etc. This would make combat flow so much smoother...
You and I both seem to like the same action-packed, smooth-flowing, skill-rotating, rhythmic combat that takes longer than 5 seconds... and that's exactly been my experience so far with pretty much any mob that has at least one elite/strong monster (which is most mobs for me, especially as I run Nightmare Dungeons).
Maybe my build is just not insanely strong so I don't one-shot everything, but I'm thankful that the level scaling keeps the combat interesting for me.
After a little while I'm stuck with 3 characters and about 80 levels total. I get the impression that an incredible number of manhours went into making D4, but it seems kinda lifeless.
The gold standard seems to be somewhere between D1 and D2 which were different experiences 20+ years ago. Whatever I liked about those games just isn't present here.
There are a zillion things I notice from the homogeneity of the items to the dreary conventional world. It almost doesn't bear elaborating because the good things were there in previous installments of Diablo and why explain something that has obviously become marginalized. In Diablo 1 items in your inventory were so much more pronounced in terms of how they looked and felt. There's no immersion whatsoever because there are little towns and villages and people everywhere. D1, 1 town. D2, 4 towns. D3, 4 towns. Diablo 4 1000 towns and 10,000 NPCs. D1 1 boss. D2, 4 bosses, D3 more bosses. D4 a zillion bosses.
There's nothing really interesting to say other than brevity is sometimes a virtue. There's something nice about a film like the Matrix (which I saw when I was young) and the ability to leave an impression. You get hit with a banger right off the bat and then the thing works itself out. Diablo was like that.
D4 is so saturated in shit from cellars to altars to dungeons to open world to the five billion strongholds, NPCs, and villages that it's numbing. There's more Netflix in the first hour than Diablo 1 had in the whole game. I feel like I'm watching 2,000 hours of college class instead of reading a 30-minute thesis. There's no point in this shit. Plotline was the worst thing that ever happened to a game about killing the devil.
You just gotta divorce the notion of traditional storytelling from the aRPG medium. The 5 or 6 necessary characters should sit in town and mind their vocations just like they do in Diablo 1. The more these NPCs interact with the world the less immersive it becomes. The point is they can't win and it doesn't occur to them to try. Stringing together a piece of Shakespearean theater from the mottled perspective of dozens of minor NPCs is absolutely garbage.
Anyway, I think the game sucks. Everything is too controlled and contrived. It's not even charming accidentally. Or rather there are no interesting accidents because there's shit everywhere and none of it got enough attention to develop personality. The gameplay isn't even worth discussing. I literally have no idea who any characters are except Vigo, Donan, and Lorath, and all 3 of them suck. The world building would be better if it was led by Marvel and the only competition was what demon is the most powerful.
Anyway, the combat system sucks. It doesn't have to be like anything. It just has to be not like this. When I was whirlwinding at level 5. I knew I was fucked. It's not even creative accidentally. There's nothing unique, let alone unprecedented. At least previous installments of Diablo were uniquely different from one another. Is there no incentive to even try being original in some way? Even if it was apparently fucked up in some ambitious way it would be so much better than quicksand. It's just a routine that's not a winner, and that has no chance of being a winner. It doesn't yield a single interesting question. What about a backflip 420 or a fireball 69? No, it can't even be pointless in a way that isn't pointless.
On June 19 2023 11:23 KrillinFromwales wrote: After a little while I'm stuck with 3 characters and about 80 levels total. I get the impression that an incredible number of manhours went into making D4, but it seems kinda lifeless.
The gold standard seems to be somewhere between D1 and D2 which were different experiences 20+ years ago. Whatever I liked about those games just isn't present here.
There are a zillion things I notice from the homogeneity of the items to the dreary conventional world. It almost doesn't bear elaborating because the good things were there in previous installments of Diablo and why explain something that has obviously become marginalized. In Diablo 1 items in your inventory were so much more pronounced in terms of how they looked and felt. There's no immersion whatsoever because there are little towns and villages and people everywhere. D1, 1 town. D2, 4 towns. D3, 4 towns. Diablo 4 1000 towns and 10,000 NPCs. D1 1 boss. D2, 4 bosses, D3 more bosses. D4 a zillion bosses.
There's nothing really interesting to say other than brevity is sometimes a virtue. There's something nice about a film like the Matrix (which I saw when I was young) and the ability to leave an impression. You get hit with a banger right off the bat and then the thing works itself out. Diablo was like that.
D4 is so saturated in shit from cellars to altars to dungeons to open world to the five billion strongholds, NPCs, and villages that it's numbing. There's more Netflix in the first hour than Diablo 1 had in the whole game. I feel like I'm watching 2,000 hours of college class instead of reading a 30-minute thesis. There's no point in this shit. Plotline was the worst thing that ever happened to a game about killing the devil.
You just gotta divorce the notion of traditional storytelling from the aRPG medium. The 5 or 6 necessary characters should sit in town and mind their vocations just like they do in Diablo 1. The more these NPCs interact with the world the less immersive it becomes. The point is they can't win and it doesn't occur to them to try. Stringing together a piece of Shakespearean theater from the mottled perspective of dozens of minor NPCs is absolutely garbage.
Anyway, I think the game sucks. Everything is too controlled and contrived. It's not even charming accidentally. Or rather there are no interesting accidents because there's shit everywhere and none of it got enough attention to develop personality. The gameplay isn't even worth discussing. I literally have no idea who any characters are except Vigo, Donan, and Lorath, and all 3 of them suck. The world building would be better if it was led by Marvel and the only competition was what demon is the most powerful.
Anyway, the combat system sucks. It doesn't have to be like anything. It just has to be not like this. When I was whirlwinding at level 5. I knew I was fucked. It's not even creative accidentally. There's nothing unique, let alone unprecedented. At least previous installments of Diablo were uniquely different from one another. Is there no incentive to even try being original in some way? Even if it was apparently fucked up in some ambitious way it would be so much better than quicksand. It's just a routine that's not a winner, and that has no chance of being a winner. It doesn't yield a single interesting question. What about a backflip 420 or a fireball 69? No, it can't even be pointless in a way that isn't pointless.
So you'd probably rate the game like a 7/10 or something?
EPT
