On April 05 2023 20:25 Magic Powers wrote: It's easy to say people can freely ignore a thing, while in reality we can observe a sub-group of them utilizing that thing when it's being offered to them despite them having absolutely no prior interest in it. It's well-known in psychology that complete freedom of choice does not allow for complete self-determination. This is because of psychological phenomena like that of seeking out pleasurable results even when they're much less frequent than unpleasant results, like in most forms of gambling as well as more innocuous things like TikTok, Youtube Shorts, etc. This kind of psychology ends up hurting some people's experience with a game and it's therefore a valid complaint from them to say that they don't want certain features to be available at all. That doesn't mean they should be pandered to, but they're not wrong to prefer certain options being limited or unavailable.
well maybe i am a freak of nature, but i dont see a problem ignoring a gameplay element i dont like if i have the option for it.
self imposed challanges are a great thing in many games and they are adding a lot of replayability (for me even more then grinding dungeons for example), and there are plenty of people engaging in those (hell the entire speedrunning community does it for example), so i am kinda hopeful players can handle that kind of thing
On April 05 2023 20:25 Magic Powers wrote: It's easy to say people can freely ignore a thing, while in reality we can observe a sub-group of them utilizing that thing when it's being offered to them despite them having absolutely no prior interest in it. It's well-known in psychology that complete freedom of choice does not allow for complete self-determination. This is because of psychological phenomena like that of seeking out pleasurable results even when they're much less frequent than unpleasant results, like in most forms of gambling as well as more innocuous things like TikTok, Youtube Shorts, etc. This kind of psychology ends up hurting some people's experience with a game and it's therefore a valid complaint from them to say that they don't want certain features to be available at all. That doesn't mean they should be pandered to, but they're not wrong to prefer certain options being limited or unavailable.
well maybe i am a freak of nature, but i dont see a problem ignoring a gameplay element i dont like if i have the option for it.
self imposed challanges are a great thing in many games and they are adding a lot of replayability (for me even more then grinding dungeons for example), and there are plenty of people engaging in those (hell the entire speedrunning community does it for example), so i am kinda hopeful players can handle that kind of thing
All people are not the same, i.e. what's true for some isn't necessarily true for everyone. If freedom of choice affects you differently than it does others, then that's completely expected and should be acknowledged. This is why I don't like it when players accuse others of wanting to restrict other players' preferred playstyles. This is a choice from the developers, not of the players. If you have a complaint about this, it should be directed at the developers. Maybe they'll side with you, maybe they won't. For example I think that Blizzard should reintroduce the layover map. But I don't tell other players that they're wrong for being happy about Blizzard's decision to remove it. I don't tell them that their limitations are affecting my enjoyment of the game. It's Blizzard's choice to pander to a certain type of player, not the players' choice.
On April 05 2023 21:42 Magic Powers wrote: ... For example I think that Blizzard should reintroduce the layover map. But I don't tell other players that they're wrong for being happy about Blizzard's decision to remove it. I don't tell them that their limitations are affecting my enjoyment of the game. It's Blizzard's choice to pander to a certain type of player, not the players' choice.
thats great buddy, then just accept it
if you rather complain about people complaining about design descisions by writing "its the devs choice" under them than talking about things in the game that you dont like its your choice, aint nobody stopping you from it
On April 05 2023 21:42 Magic Powers wrote: ... For example I think that Blizzard should reintroduce the layover map. But I don't tell other players that they're wrong for being happy about Blizzard's decision to remove it. I don't tell them that their limitations are affecting my enjoyment of the game. It's Blizzard's choice to pander to a certain type of player, not the players' choice.
thats great buddy, then just accept it
if you rather complain about people complaining about design descisions by wirting "it the devs choice" under them than talking about things in the game that you dont like its your choice, aint nobody stopping you from it
That's not what I'm saying. You can complain, I can complain, anyone can. People can discuss their preferences with others and agree to disagree on those preferences. What I'm saying is that I find it inappropriate to point fingers at players and tell them to just suck it up when things aren't the way they want them to be.
On April 05 2023 22:11 Magic Powers wrote: ... What I'm saying is that I find it inappropriate to point fingers at players and tell them to just suck it up when things aren't the way they want them to be.
thats excactly what YOU are doing as well right now so theres that
and one last time: one option is both sides can play, but one has to live with the fact that there is an option they dont like the other is one of the sides cant play at all (or only with lvling tons of alts which is waaaaaay more effort than ignoring a button)
if you think those are comparable options then thats the way it is, for me one lets more players enjoy the game then the other, and i am always in favour of that one
On April 05 2023 22:11 Magic Powers wrote: ... What I'm saying is that I find it inappropriate to point fingers at players and tell them to just suck it up when things aren't the way they want them to be.
thats excactly what YOU are doing as well right now so theres that
and one last time: one option is both sides can play, but one has to live with the fact that there is an option they dont like the other is one of the sides cant play at all (or only with lvling tons of alts which is waaaaaay more effort than ignoring a button)
if you think those are comparable options then thats the way it is, for me one lets more players enjoy the game then the other, and i am always in favour of that one
What? No. If Blizzard makes a game that panders specifically to you but not to me, I just won't play it and leave you alone. I'm certainly NOT doing what you're doing.
It's a multiplayer game. You can do self imposed challenges and ignore what you don't like along the way. But even your solo journey (don't think you can even play D4 solo) will then only compare to players who will agree to the same restrictions. In the multiplayer context now you're fighting bosses with other players, trading, doing pvp, any extra restriction you chose for yourself disadvantage you vs players who didn't. That's why hardcore characters can only play and trade with hardcore characters. But I think that's kinda obvious. I play restricting myself in D2 all the time (refusing free items), but I know the implications and why I do it. Anyway respecs having a cost is nice, because now if you avoid respec or are careful about it you're saving that cost for yourself and vs players who would respec many times, it's rewarding.
a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
Mmmh so it looks like the stat attribution outside of gear would take place in the paragon boards after max level instead. The power creeping potential is a bit scary given the value of each node and the amount of boards but I think the system sounds interesting. A normal node being a +5 sounds like it would just be the same as +1 level worth of stat points though so while your gear level may stay similar, maybe you don't outscale stuff too hard or fast and stay in reasonable balance to players/monsters/areas a bunch of levels below or above. In the video example we see a total already acquired stat pool of over 1000 points and a paragon level adding a +5 is only less than a +0.5% stat points gain so that sounds balanced (but don't know how many times you can stack such bonuses). The description of endgame areas sounds interesting and open ended, and again I really like the "fields of hatred" areas giving context and reward to pvp, kind of like wpvp. I think it's mad that we get the option to do HC pvp in places like that it's really interesting and risky, I hope the balance is quite good and you have some chance to run away if you spot something that looks bad in time^^! I wonder also about what prevents a group of players from teaming and ambushing solo players in such a context, or if the solo player then still has a chance to spot and escape that.
Edit: Oh I noticed it also suggests you can gain at least 148+ paragon points to distribute so that would suggest say 150*5=750 points to distribute past a pool of 1000, less than doubling the base stat pool which may come from items. So yeah that sounds pretty balanced as it doesn't necessarily sounds like you're gonna multiply your damage and health and stuff many times over and stomp the previous hardest boss and face a complete stat wall at some next step, able to keep a balance over a lot of different contexts or gear pieces even. Anyway since there is also scaling of the world in the equation.. still don't know how it will work with for example pvp or coop (do all players keep their normal stats or are they scaled? at least it sounds like if you play with your friend who is 40 paragon levels behind or above, they could engage in the same fights without having to do weird scaling of even the player characters to each other, with good gameplay).
Also maybe the scaling stops at max level regardless of paragon levels, which would be neat I guess. Or maybe perfect: that could mean all the areas, early game or not, may be playable as endgame with balanced gameplay for all max level characters regardless of gear or paragon status.
^here are some examples of the more customizable tiles on paragon boards.
this was pre-closed beta footage of the paragon board. it won't all be +stats and I'm not sure why they didn't highlight anything like this in the video.
here's hoping that tiles like these are still in the game
On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
^here are some examples of the more customizable tiles on paragon boards.
this was pre-closed beta footage of the paragon board. it won't all be +stats and I'm not sure why they didn't highlight anything like this in the video.
here's hoping that tiles like these are still in the game
Yes it's not highlighted but in the video we can see a example of legendary tile "Cheap shot : You deal +5% damage for each nearby enemy that is crowd controlled, up to 25%" and there are blue tiles that appear on the boards. Sounds great so long as it's balanced and doesn't powercreep, depending on context.
On April 06 2023 06:54 Fleetfeet wrote: People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
You could say players who don't want to level up a second character or farm a little bit/spend in game currency for respecing are "weak willed". It's like arguing about a "Create max level character button". W/E players like different things and will play what's closer to what they like. Again all the game rules affect all the players, even more so in multiplayer.
With the tree we have seen and the paragon board shown here, maybe this whole discussion is moot because there is nothing to respec to anyways.
I'm guessing this vidoc was made before the beta... because during the Beta the Codex of Power doesn't drop. It just unlocks... if we have to gamble through a % in hopes to unlock then the hype just went down a crap ton.
On April 06 2023 09:59 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: edit #2: 16+ legendary nodes for each class but there are only 8 boards with only 1 legendary node....
I believe this gives a total of 12870 possible legendary node combinations for your character build, making it successfully unique in that way. [or at least out of ~13K other characters of the same class assuming equal distribution, but then of course we'd further customize with the rest of the nodes, skill tree, items and w/e else] https://www.dcode.fr/combinations If you could pick 12 among 16 it drops to 1820, or lowest amount of course would be 16 among 16 would be just 1 build. If you can pick out of 16 picking 8 gives the maximum number of combinations.
On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
People arguing that infinite lives shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose to delete your character instead of picking up the corpse.
Or maybe it's not that simple and people have a point?
EPT
![[image loading]](https://diablo4.purediablo.com/images/6/62/Legendary_tile.png)
