On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
Have you read the last few pages? Your arguments have been made 10 times before and you also include some insults (it's your feelings, those aren't valid for a discussion; you are weak-willed). Why? We already came to the conclusion that we can't really please all camps, equally or at all. What I don't like is this idea that we just feel this way and you are above the fray and completely logical. I agree with Magic Powers: It's not that simple. It all comes down to feelings in the end because we want to enjoy a game, right? Enjoyment is a feeling. Why do you not just enjoy making new characters the way I do it? Just do it and have fun. Do you realise how disingenuous this line of argument is? It's perfectly fine you are not able to get behind why other people feel a certain way. But maybe you could accept those feelings as valid the same way you would like other people to accept the way you feel about these things?
On April 05 2023 23:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: It's a multiplayer game. You can do self imposed challenges and ignore what you don't like along the way. But even your solo journey (don't think you can even play D4 solo) will then only compare to players who will agree to the same restrictions. In the multiplayer context now you're fighting bosses with other players, trading, doing pvp, any extra restriction you chose for yourself disadvantage you vs players who didn't. That's why hardcore characters can only play and trade with hardcore characters. But I think that's kinda obvious. I play restricting myself in D2 all the time (refusing free items), but I know the implications and why I do it. Anyway respecs having a cost is nice, because now if you avoid respec or are careful about it you're saving that cost for yourself and vs players who would respec many times, it's rewarding.
so this is what it boiles down to?
you want to feel good because you saved 50k gold every now and then?
im sorry but it sounds more and more to me that you just cant admit that your initial problems with the respec option arent as bad as they seemed at first.
cause guess what: there is a shared stash in the game, meaning players you interact will: make a farm character -> farm gear for other aspects of the game make character specialized for specific content
so you get specialized characters either way, only that one way forces you to waste large amounts of time with lvling alts but players who dont even want to look up builds at all are pretty much boned later in the game if they go the wrong direction with their build (essentially forcing you to look up the meta or leveling a new one until you find a spec/have enough gold), or in short: you choose the "wrong" talent early on and now you will be behind (the multiplayer aspects of the game are huge as you said) for a very long time essentially ill have to wait to even buy the game until they inevitably change something on that front (or wait until the gold is pointless in the game again, as it will be quite soon),
but hey, at least you can feel smarter then them cause you looked up a cookie cutter build in the internets and saved some gold, yipy
On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
Have you read the last few pages? Your arguments have been made 10 times before and you also include some insults (it's your feelings, those aren't valid for a discussion; you are weak-willed). Why? We already came to the conclusion that we can't really please all camps, equally or at all. What I don't like is this idea that we just feel this way and you are above the fray and completely logical. I agree with Magic Powers: It's not that simple. It all comes down to feelings in the end because we want to enjoy a game, right? Enjoyment is a feeling. Why do you not just enjoy making new characters the way I do it? Just do it and have fun. Do you realise how disingenuous this line of argument is? It's perfectly fine you are not able to get behind why other people feel a certain way. But maybe you could accept those feelings as valid the same way you would like other people to accept the way you feel about these things?
im truly sorry ignoring a button doesnt vibe with your feelings, better exclude a sizeable group of players from their playstyle to prevent that
and no, you are not weak minded, you are just egotisical, nothing more, nothing less
On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
Have you read the last few pages? Your arguments have been made 10 times before and you also include some insults (it's your feelings, those aren't valid for a discussion; you are weak-willed). Why? We already came to the conclusion that we can't really please all camps, equally or at all. What I don't like is this idea that we just feel this way and you are above the fray and completely logical. I agree with Magic Powers: It's not that simple. It all comes down to feelings in the end because we want to enjoy a game, right? Enjoyment is a feeling. Why do you not just enjoy making new characters the way I do it? Just do it and have fun. Do you realise how disingenuous this line of argument is? It's perfectly fine you are not able to get behind why other people feel a certain way. But maybe you could accept those feelings as valid the same way you would like other people to accept the way you feel about these things?
im truly sorry ignoring a button doesnt vibe with your feelings, better exclude a sizeable group of players from their playstyle to prevent that
and no, you are not weak minded, you are just egotisical, nothing more, nothing less
Why are you still replying to me and on this topic? You wrote pages ago:
You are trying to explain to us that it doesn't make a difference for us when it obviously does. How is it so hard to understand that all the fun of decision making is gone for some people (e.g. myself) if the decision is meaningless. The disadvantage is clear: The game is not fun, period. This is the same in reverse for you without respec. So no, your TL;DR is wrong. An ARPG with free respec doesn't let me play the way I want because it isn't fun because it feels meaningless. ...
my last addition as its pointless with ppl like you:
free respec: both off us can play how they want (if you need a hard game rule to play the game thats your problem and not that of the rest of the player base) cost respec: its impossible to play how i want to play (no feelings here), i named points why its prohibitive for my playstyle, your point is that the mere existence of the option of respecs (and they will be in the game anyway btw) threatens your playstyle ..
never to mention that you wrote it yourself that the respecing wasnt the problem in d3 for you. ppl like you a ruining the fun for others because they arent even able to let other ways of playing the game an option for them,
im sure youll be in the first row to complain when additional charcter slots are added to the gamestore for rl money
Well, if you won't stop, I will. I have said everything I wanted on the topic of respec.
On April 06 2023 02:26 BluemoonSC wrote: a lack of talent respecs would be a completely unnecessary level of friction for the player. it's not the early 2000s anymore and what is considered "challenging" over the years has changed. games are much more mechanically difficult than they used to be and older systems grew to be outdated.
if you think that changing your talents is too easy, just don't do it and enjoy the game how you want to because that's what you consider enjoyable - there's no one telling you that you HAVE to take advantage of respec'ing. but don't think that forcing your tedium on other players makes the game somehow better.
This!
I look at it like SSF (Solo Self-Found) characters in PoE - it's an appealing concept that requires you to ignore an otherwise massive aspect of the game, trading. The existence of the capacity to trade (for free) does not ruin the experience of those who do not wish to trade - they simply choose not to.
People arguing that respec shouldn't exist just come across as openly weak-willed, to me. You literally just choose not to. Imagining a world where SSF was the ONLY option in PoE dramatically narrows the player experience, and while obviously respec is a much smaller impact, I do consider it in the same vein.
Have you read the last few pages? Your arguments have been made 10 times before and you also include some insults (it's your feelings, those aren't valid for a discussion; you are weak-willed). Why? We already came to the conclusion that we can't really please all camps, equally or at all. What I don't like is this idea that we just feel this way and you are above the fray and completely logical. I agree with Magic Powers: It's not that simple. It all comes down to feelings in the end because we want to enjoy a game, right? Enjoyment is a feeling. Why do you not just enjoy making new characters the way I do it? Just do it and have fun. Do you realise how disingenuous this line of argument is? It's perfectly fine you are not able to get behind why other people feel a certain way. But maybe you could accept those feelings as valid the same way you would like other people to accept the way you feel about these things?
For the little it's worth, I didn't intend for it to be insulting. We're gamers on a gaming forum, I'm sure the majority of us have been weak-willed and stayed up til 4am playing some game instead of chasing something that actually makes us happy. I didn't propose it as "Y'all are weak-willed and I'm better than you", though I see why it reads that way.
I have read the last few pages.
I also have no idea why you think just making new characters is an equivalent comparison. I do enjoy making new characters! I also enjoy respeccing! Having both in the same game does not ruin my experience of the other, it allows me the freedom to do both.
I propose that every item in the game should be readily available at the start of the game instead of having to be found. If players are upset about that, I think they're openly weak-willed. They could simply choose not to use these items if that's their preferred play style.
I was trying to find some opinions on Diablo 4 and instead I happened upon this shitshow. can y'all please settle your pointless disagreement via PM or something?
Different people have different preferences. Including the preference that something is not available. Ideally, there are different games for different people. It is impossible to make one game that fits everyone, that just becomes a bland mush that no one likes.
I also think that it is absurd to dismiss psychology out of hand. Games are all psychology, after all, their goal is to be fun. Sometimes games can be more fun fo some people if you are unable to do something. Sometimes they are more fun for some people if you are able to do the same thing.
As an example, i have a hard time ignoring in-game microtransactions. If they exist in a game, i feel that i need to be constantly on guard for the game trying to suck money from me, which lowers my enjoyment of the game. Them not existing makes the game more fun for me, even if the game is otherwise the exact same, despite the fact that i could ignore them and still play.
These discussions are similar. And psychology matters. The mere existence of something can make a game less fun, because choices feel less meaningful. If it weren't a multiplayer online thingy, you could just have different difficulty modes (no-respec-mode or whatever) and everyone would be happy. This way, designers need to make a choice.
On April 06 2023 18:00 Schelim wrote: I was trying to find some opinions on Diablo 4 and instead I happened upon this shitshow. can y'all please settle your pointless disagreement via PM or something?
...These discussions are similar. And psychology matters. The mere existence of something can make a game less fun, because choices feel less meaningful. If it weren't a multiplayer online thingy, you could just have different difficulty modes (no-respec-mode or whatever) and everyone would be happy....
WORLD TIERS Upon completing the campaign, players will get access to a special “capstone dungeon,” Piepiora says. Completing that dungeon will unlock the first World Tier, which will in turn unlock a new level of difficulty, but also grant access to powerful new loot and other advantages for your character. If you want Diablo 4 to be much, much harder, this is for you.
PARAGON SYSTEM Beyond the base skill tree, players can further customize their characters using the Paragon system. The Paragon board will offer “a lot more depth, a lot more customization,” Piepiora says. Calder noted that players can rotate the Paragon board to personalize the overall direction of their endgame upgrades — many of which look like boosts to character stats.
Related to the Paragon system is the Codex of Power, through which players can equip Aspects, which can be earned through dungeons. Through Aspects, players can make items they find in Diablo 4’s world more powerful, turning them into legendary-class items.
NIGHTMARE DUNGEONS Players can return to dungeons they’ve already played through and modify them with a Sigil. These Sigils, Sweetring explains, will “alter the play style and intensity of a dungeon.” Nightmare Dungeons are more difficult, have additional objectives, and will feature modifiers called Affixes. Piepiora highlighted one of those Affixes: Hellgate, which will randomly open up portals inside of dungeons that summon monsters not native to the region.
There are “over 120 dungeons to play through and find in Diablo 4,” Piepiora says, and every one of them can become a Nightmare Dungeon.
ENDGAME EXPLORATION The overworld of Diablo 4 will also be modified to include targeted activities in areas called Helltides. Monsters become harder, and new environmental effects, like meteors falling from the sky, will pester players as they try to slay the forces of Hell.
There’s also a bounty system centered around a location called the Tree of Whispers, which tasks players with completing bounties in various locations across Sanctuary to earn rewards. These are contained activities that players can do solo or with a group, Blizzard says.
THE FIELDS OF HATRED Parts of the world of Sanctuary are poisoned by Lilith’s presence, and when players visit them, they can engage in player-vs-player combat. Players can earn items called shards in PvP, and redeeming them involves a twist: Shards must be “purified” before they can be redeemed back in town, and other players can try to stop you (and steal your shards) on your return journey. That system brings a bit of extraction shooter flavor to Diablo 4. Purified shards can be turned in at towns to purchase special cosmetic rewards.
all those endgame activities sound very familiar. torment difficulties, rifts, bounties....
final judgment will obviously be reserved for the final release, but judging by what ive seen in the beta and what theyre saying now, i think this game is a massive disappointment. the reason for me is fairly simple. for better or worse, d3 was a completely different game to d1 and d2. yet in d4, despite the amount of time and money they had, the game seems to be lacking in any genuine innovation or creativity. the best they could do was actually hijack multiple elements of d3 that were heavily criticised, remaster them (or in the case of the inventory and item description art, recycle them) and add them to a better physics engine.
On April 06 2023 18:05 Simberto wrote: This discussion is getting silly.
Different people have different preferences. Including the preference that something is not available. Ideally, there are different games for different people. It is impossible to make one game that fits everyone, that just becomes a bland mush that no one likes.
I also think that it is absurd to dismiss psychology out of hand. Games are all psychology, after all, their goal is to be fun. ....
i personally never disagreed with that, my point the entire time was, that i happly accept options in the game i dont care for at all (in d4 its world bosses, trading - especially gold-, no ui customization for example) since others will enjoy them and i can relativley easy ignore them (im not sure about the worldbosses but well see). sure i cant play on 100 % efficiency but i dont see the problem with that. my mistake is presuming that others would also have little problems with that as well
but some folks are too insitent on their playstyle, and you can blame this form of egotism on "psychology" all you like, it stays egoistic on not allowing other playstyles that dont even cost any dev time at all. you can choose to work on your tolerance for things or blame it on psychology like its a form of inescapable gravity. i personally cant respect that all too much, but thats just one guys opinion so whatever
but you are right, this discussion is going nowhere so im gonna retire form it, the start of the game nears and ppl wanna talk about all sorts of stuff here, not just this one tiresome topic
Someone did the math and the showing of the Paragon board and has estimated it will cost 11 MILLION gold to do a respec.... asinine. Now the question is when the devs stated they had highly increased the drop rate during the beta did that mean gold as well. Cause right now this is a RMT bots dream come true.
On April 06 2023 16:51 uummpaa wrote:but hey, at least you can feel smarter then them cause you looked up a cookie cutter build in the internets and saved some gold, yipy
rofl sorry you don't get it at all sounds like you're mad other people don't share your opinion you have no idea
On April 06 2023 23:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Someone did the math and the showing of the Paragon board and has estimated it will cost 11 MILLION gold to do a respec.... asinine. Now the question is when the devs stated they had highly increased the drop rate during the beta did that mean gold as well. Cause right now this is a RMT bots dream come true.
I mean for me these days, they have to deal with anticheating on this game because they can and I think they will since D2:R has seemed quite quite clean tbh. Personally as a player I do not stick around on a server where cheating is running around much, and some games are really super clean and I play these games. There could very well be over 95% of the stuff generated being legit, or even better over 99%. I think the dev Fergusson mentioned in the twitter post that you can choose to refund 1 point at a time or the entire tree at once. So I think you can probably expect it's cheaper to refund the entire tree at once than to refund every single point separately. Also somebody mentioned in the thread that they could farm 1M gold in lvl 25 dungeon pretty easily and 11M gold wouldn't even be that expensive.
I really do wonder how they even approach game design at Blizzard at this point. Do they even look at what other titles did, what works, what doesn't work and what could be good for their own title?
There are so many ways to do the end game and progression in your game yet it seems they're just taking the laziest approach possible. I mean, you don't have to look far for inspiration, take even more niche titles like Grim Dawn with its constellation system which is way more interesting than paragon system, or Inquisitor: Martyr with all of its horizontal progression and item customization (really underrated game but its systems are pretty much heaven for any ARPG fan).
Even simple stuff like every class having their own skill trees but also everyone getting access to a number of general skill trees (ranged, melee, crits, dot, movement, health etc.) but to be able to use some of those general trees you need to complete achievements to unlock them. You know, stuff to do, more ways to flesh out your character and other simple things like that which actually encourage you to engage with all aspects of the game.
Let me show here just one simple example from Inquisitor, a minor system that's deeper than anything D4 has shown so far: customizing your "bottle". Basically the bottle has 2 stats: capacity and mods. Capacity tells you how many times you can use it before it's out and mods tell you what kind of effects you can put on it. It can have 1-4 mods on it, you can't change the type of those mods but you can change them within the type. The mods belong to one of 3 categories: healing, damage and supplement and you can customize them to your liking. For healing mods you can choose between various heal over time, instant heal, dot removal and brief dot immunity and such, for dmg you can have boosted dmg, critical or reduced cooldown on skills for a brief moment, supplement mods basically just make bottle better by having effects like extended duration on other effects, improved capacity etc. Stronger effects take more capacity so you have to choose wisely here. Let's say a bottle has 12 capacity, most basic effects will take 1 capacity/use (so with 4 mods you get 4/use which means you can use your bottle 3 times) while stronger effects can go up to 3/use on a single mod so your bottle would be single use only. So, now you're looking for the right kind of bottle, with good capacity and mod types you want because maybe you want 4 healing mods or maybe you're a tough cookie and don't want your bottle to heal you at all and instead opt for 4 dmg mods so you can evaporate bosses with +80% dmg and +20% crit chance for 5 seconds. Some mods are even give and take type. Check those bad boys out:
Boosts all damage and damage reduction by 100% and increases movement speed by 30% for 5 seconds. The aftershock removes 50% of actual HP and reduces movement speed by 30% for 20 seconds
Increases Inoculator capacity by 15. Removes 30% of actual HP upon injection
And yes, this last example makes your bottle actually reduce your hp (which might be good for builds that have triggers on lower hp %).
One small system and so much joy in crafting your character and build...
Edit: One other cool system that I haven't seen in any other game. When you find a legendary you don't know what it does, you need to identify/unlock it by using it. Here's an example of a partially unlocked legendary:
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/ejf5rbl335sa1.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Uh9Dtvm.png)
