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On January 23 2017 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:
- Eternal has a sizable bonus from playing Draft rather than just opening packs. If you maintain a 50% win rate you are able to functionally “buy packs” at 645 Gold each. The Arena bonus for Hearthstone is just under 10%, and does not offer significant savings over just cracking packs.
This isn't so easy to analyze because the games differ pretty significantly in how matchmaking works for their limited formats. Hearthstone's Arena always matches you by match record on your particular arena run, while Eternal always uses your limited MMR. Because of this, an above average Arena player can on average expect to see several players significantly worse than them near the beginning of their Arena runs while the Eternal Draft player is going to face players of similar skill the whole way through.
This does mean that game quality is better as a whole since you aren't facing players way better or worse than you near the beginning of Draft runs, but it also means an above average player can expect to go "less positive" in Eternal than in Hearthstone.
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On January 23 2017 20:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:
- Eternal has a sizable bonus from playing Draft rather than just opening packs. If you maintain a 50% win rate you are able to functionally “buy packs” at 645 Gold each. The Arena bonus for Hearthstone is just under 10%, and does not offer significant savings over just cracking packs. This isn't so easy to analyze because the games differ pretty significantly in how matchmaking works for their limited formats. Hearthstone's Arena always matches you by match record on your particular arena run, while Eternal always uses your limited MMR. Because of this, an above average Arena player can on average expect to see several players significantly worse than them near the beginning of their Arena runs while the Eternal Draft player is going to face players of similar skill the whole way through. This does mean that game quality is better as a whole since you aren't facing players way better or worse than you near the beginning of Draft runs, but it also means an above average player can expect to go "less positive" in Eternal than in Hearthstone.
While I agree with you on all your points, I don't think they change the conclusion at all. Eternal draft rewards are much better than HS unless you literally never want to touch the constructed ladder. In that case, HS Arena is better because it's cheaper and thus easier to go infinite on it.
I didn't really know how Eternal's matchmaking works tbh, but if it uses your MMR then to me it's perfect. I don't want to face much worse or better players. Closer games means more fun. You want to have fun playing the game instead of building your cardpool as fast as humanly possible, because in the long run if the game is not fun you simply drop it.
You also only considered the rewards for above average players. If I understand this right. for the average player using MMR is fair and the first games in Arena are basically random. For above/under average players, using MMR is fair and Arena is unfair (either positive/negative).
Have to comment about the streamer in the previous page, SunyVeil. I have watched his stream a few times and he is an extremely solid player (better than me for sure). I watched mainly draft and was impressed. Big recommend :D
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This game is great. I hope it will build and maintain a decent player base.
The draft is very well done, arena was my favorite part of HS and eternal's system brings a lot more depth to it. Too bad it's harder to get a few in a row. A casual draft mode without rewards or keeping the cards would be great.
Constructed is also very good imo, I'enjoy it a lot more than I thought I would, the mana system generates a good variety of games even when playing the same match ups. I just need to build the legendaries and get lucky with the rares from packs to fully appreciate the possibilities offered.
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There's a lot to like.
Achievements are fun to get.
My best decks so far:
- Warcry (common deck)
- Pump+Revive justice/shadow
- Prime Time (great deck name)
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I really like the game, my only complaint is I'm finding clearing all the campaign missions extremely boring. It's not as fun to me if I'm not building my own deck to overcome the challenges I face.
Mechanic-wise, I really enjoy the game though. Can't wait to try Draft out.
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On January 23 2017 11:15 Archeon wrote:
Idk, I'm starting to strongly dislike the mana system. Most of the games I loose I loose because the balance between my cards is way off, which feels needlessly gambly and frustrating in times when Duelyst gives you a free 1-card mulligan each turn and MMDoC has shown how to make mana comfortable and keep a decision involved. I love MtG, but that part was always wonky.
Having the mulligan restricted to one doesn't help, I'm praying every time I hit the redraw button. Even WotC has recognized that their mulligan system isn't great and buffed it, Idk why Eternal has a system that is even worse for the most part.
Having played Eternal for a few months now, mulliganing in MTG feels waaaaaaay worse. If you redraw into a poor hand that sucks, but mulliganing in MTG is more likely to result in a bad hand and winning with 5 or fewer cards ranges from outrageously difficult to near impossible.
5k gold has so far kept me away from draft, I'll give it a shot when I get the money.
I like most of the new mechanics though.
Also wow some legendaries. Let's put a good ability on a good body and make it cheap, because reasons.
If you look at Tier 1 decklists, there isn't an overabundance of Legendaries. Some Legendaries have their rarity because they are efficient, but most are just cards with really splashy or unique effects. I mean, if you were designing a card game, why bother to have rarity if you aren't going to make the rarest of cards exciting?
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On January 24 2017 05:12 Sunyveil wrote:
why bother to have rarity if you aren't going to make the rarest of cards exciting?
To balance powerful build-arounds for limited that you basically never want to appear in multiples in a given draft?
From the constructed side, rarity only really serves as a barrier to entry for players still in the collection-building phase. Limited balance is where rarity actually does something constructive.
That said, the only Legendary I find to be overly-pervasive is Sandstorm Titan.
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The titan is strong that's for sure but I would not put him above some commons/rares like oni ronin, torch, impending doom, some champions and many other cards.
I agree the rarity is mostly for developpers to get some money and the game is very newbee friendly for a F2P imo.
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^I'd definitely put Titan over Oni Ronin, Ronin is good but mainly a "trade a card for warcry". Torch is a good spell, but it's comparable in power to flash freeze and finest hour. Doom and some champions have similar stats/cost, but are more situational or have drawbacks instead of a great ability. And champions are the most stats/cost cards out there.
On January 24 2017 05:12 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2017 11:15 Archeon wrote:
Idk, I'm starting to strongly dislike the mana system. Most of the games I loose I loose because the balance between my cards is way off, which feels needlessly gambly and frustrating in times when Duelyst gives you a free 1-card mulligan each turn and MMDoC has shown how to make mana comfortable and keep a decision involved. I love MtG, but that part was always wonky.
Having the mulligan restricted to one doesn't help, I'm praying every time I hit the redraw button. Even WotC has recognized that their mulligan system isn't great and buffed it, Idk why Eternal has a system that is even worse for the most part. Having played Eternal for a few months now, mulliganing in MTG feels waaaaaaay worse. If you redraw into a poor hand that sucks, but mulliganing in MTG is more likely to result in a bad hand and winning with 5 or fewer cards ranges from outrageously difficult to near impossible.
5 mana or 2 of the same kind and a hand full of other color cards on your starting hand has a similar success rate (<5%). The mana restriction somewhat lowers the variance, so that's nice, but MTG gives you another (albeit really punishing) mulligan after your first if your second hand is still terrible.
I guess Eternal's mulligan system is overall slightly better, but again, MTG's is terrible to begin with and things like partial mulligans would open options to draw desirable hands instead of hoping to get 1<mana<5 in 2 colors and a creature you can play in turn 1 or 2. In some regards MTG is just not a good reference for creating fun games.
I'm not used to being unable to field a creature until turn 3 in an aggro deck anymore.
On January 24 2017 05:12 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +5k gold has so far kept me away from draft, I'll give it a shot when I get the money.
I like most of the new mechanics though.
Also wow some legendaries. Let's put a good ability on a good body and make it cheap, because reasons. If you look at Tier 1 decklists, there isn't an overabundance of Legendaries. Some Legendaries have their rarity because they are efficient, but most are just cards with really splashy or unique effects. I mean, if you were designing a card game, why bother to have rarity if you aren't going to make the rarest of cards exciting?
I agree, cards like Akroma and Memnarch are imo good legendaries, tons of stats, or some "wow crazy" ability. And expensive enough to make them inefficient/unplayable. Make them cards for collectors, who fawn about how awesome it is when you ignore the costs.
I agree that for the most part Eternal does a good job with that. But in between all the junk and stuff only lategame control and revival decks can afford to play, meet Sandstorm Titan and Siraf. The difference to other cards is mindblowing especially for the former.
Other card games like Duelyst and Hex are worse in that, so I'm not too unhappy about the state legendaries are in. Just had to let off steam yesterday after loosing 5 times essentially to legendaries (twice to ST, once to Sarif, twice to soulfire drake, but I was behind in the SD matches before SD got played).
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most bullcrap card right now, imo, is the 2/2 aegis warcry guy. which is a common.
sandstorm titan is certainly more shocking to go against with a non-streamlined deck, though
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It's not a great comparison to make. Crownwatch Paladin is a lynchpin in a very small number of decks (Rakano variants specifically) but not played a ton outside of them. Sandstorm Titan is less of a centerpiece in the decks its in, but it's a 4-of in virtually every Time deck.
It's not so much an issue of relative power level more than the fact that it's a significant barrier to entry for players still in the collection phase that every deck in a particular color to demand 4 copies of a specific legendary.
Printing the card at lower rarity would solve the accessibility issue, but create a new problem in that the card is insane in Limited, and at anything lower than Legendary, it would start showing up in a significant percentage of Limited games.
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On January 23 2017 17:20 Salteador Neo wrote:In constructed I'm pretty sure newer players cheat themselves because of not wanting to cut cards and they skip on power. In draft mana screw just happens and you learn to move on 
Thing is mana screw isn't just "I didn't draw any of my sigils and can't play my high level/cost cards" it's often "I drew nothing but sigils and am sitting at 9 mana with nothing to play".
Your point about Seek Power is a good one though and the "draw a sigil" effects the factions have are pretty good too (though they're probably better suited for pure decks over mixed).
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The mana searchers are an important part of not getting flooded, which is why Neo mentioned them. Similar to fetchlands in Magic, playing a mana searcher takes a sigil out of your deck making you less likely to draw them later. This is why a lot of medium-high curve decks still play only the bare minimum of 25 sigils. They help you consistently get mana early without flooding late.
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Yeah it's one of those things where I don't want to give the impression it's a major issue. It happens rarely enough it just hurts when it does.
I mostly wanted to mention Spellweaver because I love it's mana system :p
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
is it possible to get a close-to meta deck with basic cards that you can slowly improve but which you play the same way throughout
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On January 24 2017 08:29 ahswtini wrote:
is it possible to get a close-to meta deck with basic cards that you can slowly improve but which you play the same way throughout
you can do that with a rakano warcry deck
focus on warcry or other good creatures, low cost removal, and the best combat tricks / weapons you have available
it won't be particularly close to the t1 decks at first but it'll have the general idea
rakano = red/green, btw
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On January 24 2017 08:39 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 08:29 ahswtini wrote:
is it possible to get a close-to meta deck with basic cards that you can slowly improve but which you play the same way throughout you can do that with a rakano warcry deck focus on warcry or other good creatures, low cost removal, and the best combat tricks / weapons you have available it won't be particularly close to the t1 decks at first but it'll have the general idea rakano = red/green, btw
yeah i've seen that deck mentioned a lot, i tried building one but just felt i was missing too many warcry cards
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On January 24 2017 08:43 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 08:39 travis wrote:On January 24 2017 08:29 ahswtini wrote:
is it possible to get a close-to meta deck with basic cards that you can slowly improve but which you play the same way throughout you can do that with a rakano warcry deck focus on warcry or other good creatures, low cost removal, and the best combat tricks / weapons you have available it won't be particularly close to the t1 decks at first but it'll have the general idea rakano = red/green, btw yeah i've seen that deck mentioned a lot, i tried building one but just felt i was missing too many warcry cards
honestly what I did is put down 25 dollars and then start drafting but if I was having to do it f2p i would:
1.) do all the quests
2.) do forge until I rank up once
3.) make a deck with combat tricks to abuse AI and grind gauntlet. when you do gauntlet, lose on purpose on the last match.
4.) every time you get 5k gold do draft and take it as seriously as you can (watch videos, or look at draft tiers)
that would probably be the best way to build a card base
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I've been playing this game cause of this thread. I like this game. Muy fun.
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On January 24 2017 08:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2017 08:43 ahswtini wrote:On January 24 2017 08:39 travis wrote:On January 24 2017 08:29 ahswtini wrote:
is it possible to get a close-to meta deck with basic cards that you can slowly improve but which you play the same way throughout you can do that with a rakano warcry deck focus on warcry or other good creatures, low cost removal, and the best combat tricks / weapons you have available it won't be particularly close to the t1 decks at first but it'll have the general idea rakano = red/green, btw yeah i've seen that deck mentioned a lot, i tried building one but just felt i was missing too many warcry cards honestly what I did is put down 25 dollars and then start drafting but if I was having to do it f2p i would: 1.) do all the quests 2.) do forge until I rank up once 3.) make a deck with combat tricks to abuse AI and grind gauntlet. when you do gauntlet, lose on purpose on the last match. 4.) every time you get 5k gold do draft and take it as seriously as you can (watch videos, or look at draft tiers) that would probably be the best way to build a card base
I heard that lose the final match on purpose several times but I've also heard that difficulty scales with total wins and not rank so your losing out on rank up chests for nothing.
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EPT
