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On August 18 2016 17:29 bo1b wrote:
The difference is we have had AAA studios releasing unfinished, uninspired, complete rip offs with fantastically mediocre dlc for like 10 years straight now, not the odd studio every few years. Sooner or later I'm hoping people will wake up to the complete shit show that is the modern gaming industry, the fact people pre-ordered something that both looked boring and too good to be true and found out the hard way that it was, leads me to hope that one day people won't be lining up en masse to check out the latest wow expac, with even dumber classes.
The Witcher 3 was the only game in recent memory to come from a AAA studio that wasn't complete shit, instead it was solidly meh.
The good news is that a rise in indie game studios is occurring, and for a fair few genres there's plenty of alternatives that cost very little and offer so much more. Particularly in the realm of rogue like gaming, though they are admittedly more complicated to learn.
Path of Exile have to be mentioned here. Dem New Zealand boys did a great job to give us a worthy diablo3
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On August 18 2016 13:02 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 12:30 Duka08 wrote:On August 18 2016 11:55 Djzapz wrote:On August 18 2016 08:56 Birdie wrote:On August 18 2016 08:47 Djzapz wrote:On August 18 2016 07:48 Duka08 wrote:On August 18 2016 07:36 Djzapz wrote:On August 18 2016 06:37 Assault_1 wrote:On August 17 2016 13:18 Djzapz wrote:On August 17 2016 12:47 Assault_1 wrote:
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I haven't really been following, what's going on with star citizen lately? It's just how I am tho, I like maintaining low expectations for everything so when something good comes up it's that much more exciting. I'll buy Star Citizen if it turns out to be good but some people are already down literally tens of thousands of dollars buying virtual ships for a game that's not released -_- tens of thousands.. I really hope that's not true There's a "completionist" package for $15000 and there was a video where the lead dev for Star Citizen met a fan who spent $30k on the game. Maybe the guy was loaded but he looked like a regular joe. And there's no doubt in my mind there's many "whales" like this, making the game unappealing to normal people who feel, possibly years ahead of release, that they'll be irrelevant in a universe of big shots with more money than sense. Anyone that can drop 30k on a game is loaded to some degree. Doesn't matter what he looked like lmao I don't consider myself loaded, I could scrounge up $30k and spend it on stupid shit. With a couple of days I could round up that kind of money and bet everything on red at the casino. Does that make me loaded? Because I definitely wouldn't be loaded after that. Having 30k in loose cash/liquid assets is relatively speaking quite loaded, for a LOT of people. Still, a common average 25-30 year old guy can have 30k in assets without being rich. That's a car and some savings, I'd never call that "loaded". A plumber with a passion can easily use a couple of years of disposable income plus some credit toward a 30k luxury. Generally when people are talking about dropping $30k on a fucking gaming hobby they're thinking flexible spending cash. Not "could the average 25-30 year old theoretically come up with 30 grand if they sold all of their assets and played it on their computer in a cardboard box on the street". The exact point I'm trying to make is it's not necessarily people who should be spending that money. Like people who realistically should be buying a trailer but buy a ship instead. I'm not talking about people with 30k of disposable income, I'm talking about guys liquidizing everything to barely manage to afford to buy a luxury, which turns out to be a financial decision that'll fuck them over for years. People do it all the time. You can be completely broke and come up with thousands of dollars and buy a fancy car. To assume like anyone who can summon up 30k is loaded or capable of affording anything that costs 30k is silly. I could right now pull 30k and use it to buy something that has no monetary value like Star Citizen ships and it wouldn't put me in the street but I'd regret my decision pretty badly. And another thing that makes this particularly dangerous is people are not used to the notion that you can buy something and it's entirely gone. If you bough a $30k car, you could resell it for $25k or whatever if it didn't work out. Here it's a total loss, the money is gone and you have nothing. Now I understand that someone who comfortably drops 30k into a hobby are probably quite loaded, my point is I'm thinking a lot of people who can't really afford it still spend money they don't have or shouldn't spend. Wouldn't be the first time it happened. People buy cars they can't really afford routinely. Same thing with homes. The concept of Star Citizen with all the promised features seems so perfect and dreamy that the people who want it the most will get irrational about how they spend whatever money they have. And that's how they raised 100+ mils.
Come on man, I highly doubt a lot of "normally" loaded people fucked themselves over (to the extent of spending 30k) over a pre-order like Star Citizen. I think a lot could have spent several hundreds on the game already (which is absolutely enough for SC to raise that much money), but not several ten thousands...
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i must be really spending-averse, i spent like $500 dollars on a nice iaito and i felt like that was a large hobby purchase.. i wouldnt consider a computer a hobby purchase since i use it for everything, unless it's over like 1.5k.. 30k on a game though??? i couldn't imagine it, especially without any kind of ownership claim to the development firm... 30k is a lot of money to anyone, i don't really get the 25-30 discussion.. even if you watch elky playing poker, he might throw away a lot on risky plays but the money isn't being thrown away for something so small.... idk, it's strange to me
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On August 18 2016 17:29 bo1b wrote:
The difference is we have had AAA studios releasing unfinished, uninspired, complete rip offs with fantastically mediocre dlc for like 10 years straight now, not the odd studio every few years. Sooner or later I'm hoping people will wake up to the complete shit show that is the modern gaming industry, the fact people pre-ordered something that both looked boring and too good to be true and found out the hard way that it was, leads me to hope that one day people won't be lining up en masse to check out the latest wow expac, with even dumber classes.
The Witcher 3 was the only game in recent memory to come from a AAA studio that wasn't complete shit, instead it was solidly meh.
The good news is that a rise in indie game studios is occurring, and for a fair few genres there's plenty of alternatives that cost very little and offer so much more. Particularly in the realm of rogue like gaming, though they are admittedly more complicated to learn.
If you think Witcher 3 is "meh", the problem may lie with your expectations 
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On August 18 2016 06:49 beentheredonethat wrote:
The last AAA title that was really good was Skyrim IMHO. Cannot name another one right now.
There are some good Triple A titles (for me Skyrim was OK, but not good, I liked Morrowind and Oblivion far more than SKyrim. I got it when it was on sale).
Deus Ex Human Revolution I thought was great. Witcher 2 was great (Witcher 3 is great, but the graphical downgrade pissed me off, so Im getting it on sale).
Dark Souls 1 on PC (Once DSFix is applied) is amazing. Tribes Ascend was great. Fallout 3 was quite impressive, Mass Effect 2 was amazing...
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On August 18 2016 20:06 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2016 17:29 bo1b wrote:
The difference is we have had AAA studios releasing unfinished, uninspired, complete rip offs with fantastically mediocre dlc for like 10 years straight now, not the odd studio every few years. Sooner or later I'm hoping people will wake up to the complete shit show that is the modern gaming industry, the fact people pre-ordered something that both looked boring and too good to be true and found out the hard way that it was, leads me to hope that one day people won't be lining up en masse to check out the latest wow expac, with even dumber classes.
The Witcher 3 was the only game in recent memory to come from a AAA studio that wasn't complete shit, instead it was solidly meh.
The good news is that a rise in indie game studios is occurring, and for a fair few genres there's plenty of alternatives that cost very little and offer so much more. Particularly in the realm of rogue like gaming, though they are admittedly more complicated to learn. If you think Witcher 3 is "meh", the problem may lie with your expectations
Probably a bad example, because CD Projekt is much closer to a young upstart company with some strong financial backing (though I guess post-Witcher 3 and GOG they can be considered AAA). Witcher 3 was basically their first major financial success, and if it had been any less the company likely would've gone under. At least the game development side of things.
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if Mattel , in 1980, can extract $400 from you while committing fraud ... well then $60 in 2016 is eazy peezy.
$400 is $1,168.19 in today's money.
imagine getting fucked over for $1,168 LOL.
watching the history for the industry up until today.. there is a lot of incentive to lie..
Total Biscuit identified the formula for financial success in his video... prey upon immature people's hopes, wishes, and dreams ; claim you can give desperate customers all they want for $60 and let the pre-order cash roll in.
After the game is released its apology and victimhood mode.
we tried our best... we were naive... we feel as bad as you do... we did everything we could to make it fun...
we made some DLC guys but u have to pay for it unlike what we said a week ago. 
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At the end of the day you kind of get what you deserve. Everyone preorders, and now that we can get refunds, people don't get them because "what's $60" and "they'll totally fix the game". We can't have nice things because everyone accepts to pay for shit.
What about the rest of us who like quality products? We're fucked. There's no market for good stuff... why would a product be polished on day1, people will buy it anyway. Why spend time and money developing a good game if NMS can break record sales while delivering a tiny fraction of the promised features? Stop preordering, start rewarding good game devs if there are any of those left.
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Video game fans need to stop throwing around fraud. Fraud required clear intent to deceive. There need to question that they planned to lie.
Hello Games and the other developers showing of pre-final build gameplay videos would be more akin to “deceptive business practices” which is much easier to prove, but also doesn’t carry jail time. But personally I don’t think any of those cases would succeed because the videos are pre-final product and there is a general public understand that products change before their final release. Otherwise movies would be charged with changing the product because they didn’t show all the scenes in the trailer.
Or look at it this way. If video game companies were brought up on charges for “graphics downgrades”, they would just stop showing us game play or graphics features. They would set everything to shit and say “It might look better at release, but we are not promising anything.”
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On August 19 2016 01:37 Plansix wrote:
Video game fans need to stop throwing around fraud. Fraud required clear intent to deceive. There need to question that they planned to lie.
Hello Games and the other developers showing of pre-final build gameplay videos would be more akin to “deceptive business practices” which is much easier to prove, but also doesn’t carry jail time. But personally I don’t think any of those cases would succeed because the videos are pre-final product and there is a general public understand that products change before their final release. Otherwise movies would be charged with changing the product because they didn’t show all the scenes in the trailer.
Or look at it this way. If video game companies were brought up on charges for “graphics downgrades”, they would just stop showing us game play or graphics features. They would set everything to shit and say “It might look better at release, but we are not promising anything.”
I don't know legal terms so I don't know that it's fraud but either way there is clear intent to deceive. Even disregarding gameplay videos, the owner of the company repeatedly said things that were untrue (and not even close to true), during a wide variety of interviews. He said the game would include some very specific and sometimes less specific functionalities that weren't in the game. He lied, he lied a lot and weeks before the game release, when it became clear that some of his statements wouldn't come to fruition (if he didn't always know), he didn't address those. He didn't come out and tell his customers that the team didn't manage to implement some of those features. He didn't correct them. In fact the game's lack of transparency was notorious and suspicious, especially in a game with this much marketing behind it.
So he hyped the game, he winged up a bullshit excuse for why very little information and footage was released prior to the game coming out, he didn't adjust the public's expectations when the development couldn't deliver on his promises. He's a liar, he sold his products based on lies. I don't know if he intentionally did it, or if he was so far in his lie and didn't have the balls to come clean, but either way he generated millions by actively misrepresenting a product in a wide variety of different ways.
I would say that if it's not fraud, it's clearly deceptive business practices. There's no doubt that the dev knew that the consumer was not buying the product he expected.
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Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR.
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On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR.
Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution.
I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine.
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On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR.
Couldn't get all the features in is indeed a very common reason for what people consider 'missing features'.
However in light of The most recent promo material from July, the four pillars videos released just a month before launch, are all using new footage from that same old build of the game that very clearly does not represent the one people can buy.
That should not be happening as close as 1 month before launch.
Features get cut months before a game releases. not weeks.
I very much believe Hello Games were knowingly selling a lie or being intentionally vague as to induce hype they knew they could never match.
Plus there is the multiplayer lie. When 2 people first met up and found they could not see each other Hello Games blamed it on server overload issues.
There is no finished player model in the game.
This is not a case of cut features and bad communication.
Its willful deception.
Sadly its hard to prove that in court.
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On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine.
What do you expect to happen?
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On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen?
Nothing.
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On August 19 2016 02:33 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen? Nothing.
What would you like to happen?
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I do think Sean Murray consciously stayed as vague and mysterious as he could be in interviews. It was evident that he didn't want people to know how little there is in the game (as shown when he was frantically calling for people on Twitter to stop watching leaked gameplay footage like what...2 days before release).
Probably nothing you can do as a consumer but not buy it in the first place. I think there is a difference between lying about absent features in the game (which Sean did sparsely, probably only as a slip up, like the "you can get attacked by other players" bit), and shrouding the game in mystery by concealing the details of the main game loop (which he did actively) and letting people extrapolate in their heads.
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On August 19 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:33 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen? Nothing. What would you like to happen?
A successful class action against Hello games, setting a precedent of heavy penalties against deceitful business practices by game devs.
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On August 19 2016 02:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:33 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen? Nothing. What would you like to happen? A successful class action against Hello games, setting a precedent of heavy penalties against deceitful business practices by game devs.
if mcdonalds can't be sued for deceitful business than I highly doubt Hello Games can
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On August 19 2016 02:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:33 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen? Nothing. What would you like to happen? A successful class action against Hello games, setting a precedent of heavy penalties against deceitful business practices by game devs.
As someone who’s in the legal field and deal with consumer protection and dealt with class action lawsuits, I’m not confident it would be successful. Especially since buyers can just ask for your money back. But it there is a good chance it would put Hello Games out of business.
I’m not sure that would have the effect you want, however. It would likely lead to smaller developers just giving bland run downs of features and adding protective language like “Any of these features could be removed in the final product.”
On August 19 2016 02:57 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 02:51 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:33 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:11 Plansix wrote:On August 19 2016 02:08 Djzapz wrote:On August 19 2016 02:04 Plansix wrote:
Once again, over promising is deceptive business practices. Intent is "I'm going to lie about this game and just not include these features." In the case of Hello Games it is that they had big plans, but then either couldn't do it or ran out of money and were faced with the option of closing down or releasing the game and fixing stuff after.
And you can just ask for a refund and can likely get it. Might need to do a little legwork, but it can happen. People have a remedy.
Its fine to be upset, but people need to be reasonable about what they expect to happen. No one is going to put Hello Games out of business just because they did a bunch of shitty PR. Deceptive business practices of that scale is not a small offense IMO. Especially not when it's becoming clear that being deceptive is a good way to make money. The fact that people can get refunds but don't is no excuse. And "people need to be reasonable" is ridiculous. People are not reasonable, people preorder, dislike the game and forget about it. Normalizing shady business practices is not exactly much of a solution. I can protect myself from it to an extent, doesn't mean it's fine. What do you expect to happen? Nothing. What would you like to happen? A successful class action against Hello games, setting a precedent of heavy penalties against deceitful business practices by game devs. if mcdonalds can't be sued for deceitful business than I highly doubt Hello Games can
Part of deceptive business practices is also not trying to fix the issues after the fact and refusing refunds. Its hard to bring a successful case if they are actively trying to make good on their promises.
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EPT
