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On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7t4F6id.jpg) This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_-
You're not actually from North Korea, are you?
On topic: I may be interested in Grey Goo. I've seen people compared it to BW/SC2 obviously, but how does it compare to a more action-focused RTS like WC3? I'm guessing it's pretty far from it, right?
I've seen people say it doesn't focus on micro, and others say the complete opposite... It's hard to really gauge what it's about. Help!
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I think it is pretty far from SC2, BW or WC3 I am pretty sure just from watching , I think it is more like old Command and Conquer titles with a mix of more advanced type of "stuff" :-P IMO...not sure ill post my thoughts more once its done downloading sometime tomorrow i hope lol
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On January 27 2015 17:09 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_- You're not actually from North Korea, are you? On topic: I may be interested in Grey Goo. I've seen people compared it to BW/SC2 obviously, but how does it compare to a more action-focused RTS like WC3? I'm guessing it's pretty far from it, right? I've seen people say it doesn't focus on micro, and others say the complete opposite... It's hard to really gauge what it's about. Help!
It's basically a simplified supreme commander with smaller armies, but 3 very different factions that mix it up. It's very, very far from the likes of BW/SC2 and WC3 in gameplay. Micro is very limited since units move very, very slow and take time to e.g. turn around, so things like stutter step aren't really that useful, but like supreme commander you can dodge the shots of some units with micro and it's often required to not use half your army. Unlike supreme commander it has a very low unit limit more akin to SC2.
It's interesting, but I don't see it becoming a big thing since it lacks depth and unit variety.
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Well, you have to micro in GG, ppl that say you don't have to are not playing it right imo.
it is not as demanding as BW or SC2 but it is still there (keeping your AA and artillery in the back, kiting goo, etc...)
but the main focus might be more into positioning and setting up an engagement.
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On January 27 2015 17:28 gTank wrote:
Well, you have to micro in GG, ppl that say you don't have to are not playing it right imo.
it is not as demanding as BW or SC2 but it is still there (keeping your AA and artillery in the back, kiting goo, etc...)
but the main focus might be more into positioning and setting up an engagement.
Yes, micro is important and there is a fair amount of it. Macro is what is simplified with one resource, no worker management, better UI and being able to automate factories to produce one unit continuously.
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Micro however is very dull at the moment.
Purely my own opinion but the fast unit in gg feels like playing with slow hydra off creep and slow unit feels like off creep queen and slow hydra.
That is not even counting the huge turn rate.
Also not confirmed is that they mostly auto target the low health unit.
The micro is basic and "boring" due to the slowness and low damage of most. (until epic units which have damage point that is so high that I almost feel like they ported it from another game but forget to adjust the stats)
This game is not for anyone looking for fun micro, it is about using strategic moves to secure resource and army etc.
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It is not about single unit micro that will win battles. But there is still a lot of micro, different than in sc2.
There is general kiting micro (less effective than in sc2 due to turn rates; speed means little here as both sides are slow), spread out micro, focus fire micro, forest micro, hills micro (for Goo only), walls micro (mostly for Humans as they can fire and move through their walls and use micro to (ab)use this to its maximum efficiency), target ground micro (and target forest), air units micro (both targeting right units in middle of battle and minimizing losses by avoiding AA units).
There is also multitasking, especially vs Goo as Mother Goo harass is important for those that play vs Goo so both sides need to multitask.
Also it is important to surround your enemy, especially when playing Goo. That takes micro as well.
I might have forgot some more.
The thing is, when someone like Bikerush is best GG player at the moment of course you are not going to see a lot of micro.
Imagine that when SC2 was released all the BW players from EU and NA didn't switch. What we would get is months and months of people being from Bronze to Diamond level. Sc2 would looks like a game with little micro. And even with all the pros switching it took a while before people like Marineking made micro look really good.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_-
It seems so strange that everything on that screen is in english except for AM/PM.
The game is the best RTS in years after SC2, but unfortunately that doesn't mean very much competition. Don't think it's viable for multiplayer for several reasons:
- Too much racial asymmetry (humans cannot expand WTF, their power grid system is quite stupid), at least the core concepts should be shared imo.
- Too much distance-irrelevant mechanics (teleports, instant building, walls etc).
- Expanding is essentially free, you only need vision to put a refinery on a resource vent, and you get full money even if it's 1000 km away from you.
- The latter is a single case of a pattern - this game exhibits a lot of "no risk, low reward" mechanics, which leads to tactics that rely on spamming actions in hope that the opponent misses something. Starcraft knew this for "sauron zerg" and "refugee protoss" both of which are relying on taking expansions faster than your opponent destroys them, and it's very sad when this is really the best way to play. I foresee that in the current state human/beta factions will eventually revolve around this. When someone proxies you in SC, it's the riskier the farther it is from their base (because worker is vulnerable, because more travel time means more time to be noticed, because you actually know beforehand etc), in GG (lol at the acronym) you can get vision with a stealth air unit and suddenly construct walls in the most ridiculous of places, distance irrelevant.
The recipe of a fun multiplayer RTS is that you pay for every single inch of territory you take, which in turn allows you to reap benefits later. This principle creates the mix of timings and position necessary for fun play. Now there is a lot of stuff these guys did great, especially the campaign, but I watched some dev interviews and I wished they didn't antagonize StarCraft so much and instead borrowed good ideas from there. They didn't probably notice, but SC is the de facto standard for an RTS game, and when they arrogantly say that they "returned to the roots" they actually mean they try to reintroduce outdated mechanics when new and better stuff had been invented and tested by time.
The single-player part is great though, especially the cinematics.
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On January 27 2015 21:02 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_- It seems so strange that everything on that screen is in english except for AM/PM.
Korean (fish?) server player
No MCA icon tho, prominent sc2 icon instead wow
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On January 27 2015 21:02 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_- It seems so strange that everything on that screen is in english except for AM/PM. The game is the best RTS in years after SC2, but unfortunately that doesn't mean very much competition. Don't think it's viable for multiplayer for several reasons: - Too much racial asymmetry (humans cannot expand WTF, their power grid system is quite stupid), at least the core concepts should be shared imo. - Too much distance-irrelevant mechanics (teleports, instant building, walls etc). - Expanding is essentially free, you only need vision to put a refinery on a resource vent, and you get full money even if it's 1000 km away from you. - The latter is a single case of a pattern - this game exhibits a lot of "no risk, low reward" mechanics, which leads to tactics that rely on spamming actions in hope that the opponent misses something. Starcraft knew this for "sauron zerg" and "refugee protoss" both of which are relying on taking expansions faster than your opponent destroys them, and it's very sad when this is really the best way to play. I foresee that in the current state human/beta factions will eventually revolve around this. When someone proxies you in SC, it's the riskier the farther it is from their base (because worker is vulnerable, because more travel time means more time to be noticed, because you actually know beforehand etc), in GG (lol at the acronym) you can get vision with a stealth air unit and suddenly construct walls in the most ridiculous of places, distance irrelevant. The recipe of a fun multiplayer RTS is that you pay for every single inch of territory you take, which in turn allows you to reap benefits later. This principle creates the mix of timings and position necessary for fun play. Now there is a lot of stuff these guys did great, especially the campaign, but I watched some dev interviews and I wished they didn't antagonize StarCraft so much and instead borrowed good ideas from there. They didn't probably notice, but SC is the de facto standard for an RTS game, and when they arrogantly say that they "returned to the roots" they actually mean they try to reintroduce outdated mechanics when new and better stuff had been invented and tested by time. The single-player part is great though, especially the cinematics.
SC is not the only standard in the RTS genre, even if ppl here want to believe only that and nothing else.
This game isn't even a week old, the devs are listening to the community so there is still hope they will change some mechanics to make this game more interesting. That is a plus that most people here seem to forget (especially with Sc2 where some things wont be changed regardless of how many ppl adress them).
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It's time for pseudo-RTS design discussion time!
Or not, hopefully.
I personally don't see the need for a SC clone, nor do I think that SC is the only working RTS design.
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On January 27 2015 20:18 -Archangel- wrote:
It is not about single unit micro that will win battles. But there is still a lot of micro, different than in sc2.
There is general kiting micro (less effective than in sc2 due to turn rates; speed means little here as both sides are slow), spread out micro, focus fire micro, forest micro, hills micro (for Goo only), walls micro (mostly for Humans as they can fire and move through their walls and use micro to (ab)use this to its maximum efficiency), target ground micro (and target forest), air units micro (both targeting right units in middle of battle and minimizing losses by avoiding AA units).
There is also multitasking, especially vs Goo as Mother Goo harass is important for those that play vs Goo so both sides need to multitask.
Also it is important to surround your enemy, especially when playing Goo. That takes micro as well.
I might have forgot some more.
The thing is, when someone like Bikerush is best GG player at the moment of course you are not going to see a lot of micro.
Imagine that when SC2 was released all the BW players from EU and NA didn't switch. What we would get is months and months of people being from Bronze to Diamond level. Sc2 would looks like a game with little micro. And even with all the pros switching it took a while before people like Marineking made micro look really good.
Multi tasking, yes.
But micro? Not saying there isn't but it certainly isn't that interesting.
The units are the problem, not the player.
Have a look at the units, they move slow, they shoot slow, they do low damage, they surround slow, the split and shutter step is slow. Everything is slow that the micro isn't very spectacular and honestly, very dull to perform these micro.
For example, do you find viking animation cancel shooting interesting? That is micro but hardly anything impressive, or fun.
Imagine marine split is 10% of the speed it is now, it wouldn't be impressive to watch neither.
I have also yet to find any fun unit interaction.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 27 2015 21:28 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2015 21:02 BluzMan wrote:On January 27 2015 15:31 GGzerG wrote:This is what I saw when I got home ( this is not the total DL time it changed thank god lol, this is what I saw when I first opened the program ) FML....no streaming tonight will have to wait till tomorrow....I forgot my computer wouldnt stay on with just this DLing, went to sleep mode noooo -_- It seems so strange that everything on that screen is in english except for AM/PM. The game is the best RTS in years after SC2, but unfortunately that doesn't mean very much competition. Don't think it's viable for multiplayer for several reasons: - Too much racial asymmetry (humans cannot expand WTF, their power grid system is quite stupid), at least the core concepts should be shared imo. - Too much distance-irrelevant mechanics (teleports, instant building, walls etc). - Expanding is essentially free, you only need vision to put a refinery on a resource vent, and you get full money even if it's 1000 km away from you. - The latter is a single case of a pattern - this game exhibits a lot of "no risk, low reward" mechanics, which leads to tactics that rely on spamming actions in hope that the opponent misses something. Starcraft knew this for "sauron zerg" and "refugee protoss" both of which are relying on taking expansions faster than your opponent destroys them, and it's very sad when this is really the best way to play. I foresee that in the current state human/beta factions will eventually revolve around this. When someone proxies you in SC, it's the riskier the farther it is from their base (because worker is vulnerable, because more travel time means more time to be noticed, because you actually know beforehand etc), in GG (lol at the acronym) you can get vision with a stealth air unit and suddenly construct walls in the most ridiculous of places, distance irrelevant. The recipe of a fun multiplayer RTS is that you pay for every single inch of territory you take, which in turn allows you to reap benefits later. This principle creates the mix of timings and position necessary for fun play. Now there is a lot of stuff these guys did great, especially the campaign, but I watched some dev interviews and I wished they didn't antagonize StarCraft so much and instead borrowed good ideas from there. They didn't probably notice, but SC is the de facto standard for an RTS game, and when they arrogantly say that they "returned to the roots" they actually mean they try to reintroduce outdated mechanics when new and better stuff had been invented and tested by time. The single-player part is great though, especially the cinematics. SC is not the only standard in the RTS genre, even if ppl here want to believe only that and nothing else. This game isn't even a week old, the devs are listening to the community so there is still hope they will change some mechanics to make this game more interesting. That is a plus that most people here seem to forget (especially with Sc2 where some things wont be changed regardless of how many ppl adress them).
Well, I'm not sure that it will be enough. C&C and it's spinoffs have been terrible for competetive multiplayer anyway, so unless they stop talking bs about the only competetive RTS that stood the test of time I don't see them making progress. Don't get me wrong, I've been playing many other RTS since I picked up SC and I've enjoyed most of them. In the single-player campaign, sadly. Two games that had really good multiplayer capabilities were the original Dawn of War and C&C3. I've watched firsthand how they spiraled into oblivion for nearly similar reasons. I now see the devs of GG say the same things on their streams that killed those two. For every upcoming RTS there's a vocal fanbase that's all like "multiplayer RTS shouldn't be about clicking, it should be about strategy and fun", and instead of making the right call of scaling the game well so that it's both playable for newbies and intense for pros, they always dumb it down to a insert-your-jack-of-all-trades-unit battle simulator with a rudimentary economy that plays all by itself.
Well, as I've said, they've done some things right, in the interface department as well. For example, every sane SC2 player has a hotkey group with all of his production facilities, so instead of wasting a hotkey group you have it wired into the interface itself, having a way to order a unit from "anywhere", same goes for researches. And it's really cool because you can still order a unit from a specific facility when you have to. If only they made the effort to also be able to set up the rally points... But generally that's a good direction to innovate in - provide a strategic layer of abstraction over all the game entities that allows people without much experience to be moderately efficient (ie, ONE interface hub to build units, ONE interface hub to construct buildings, ONE hub for researches etc), but still allow the people who really need it to micromanage all the stuff manually.
Problem is that they still abstraced out too much stuff in the economy department, pretty much all of the distance-based mechanics. That will ultimately backfire as they will have MORE actual clicks for less the value, as players will sit in their well-defended bases fighting clicking wars over objectives that don't have a lot of meaning.
Yesterday I was doing a "defeat 3 hard AI" achievement, and I had this situation when I tried to take a refinery on a resource patch and one AI kept rebuilding it (probably having vision from an invisible scout or even from destroyed HQ) faster than I could click to build my own over that one. I had a huge army there but since taking refineries is absolutely free it was able to mock me with superior reflexes for an indefinite time. Anyone who played the manner assimilator game knows this ain't really fun. Imagine if protoss could manner assimilator your gas with an observer and without paying 100 minerals, that's just terrible design. Grey goo is stuffed full with this bullshit that is largely irrelevant in the campaign but will haunt multiplayer to the state of unplayable.
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I don't agree with you. You pay for refinery itself. You also pay for distant farming by needing to wait for first workers to come back and start giving you resources. It is also much easier to intercept and kill workers with distant mining. There is cost and risk with it.
Also a lot of this text should like not you didn't care to do more effort because you didn't need to vs AI. If it is so simple and stupid, I am sure you will be at top of ladder with X:0 record in no time.
And you complain about not having someone to detect invisible as a fault of the game. Really?
And if there are truly fundamental problems with the game, these devs are ready to fix them. They are not Blizzard.
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FML, wrote a text and all is gone 
short version: it is not an esport game (maybe will be someday because, not like Blizzard, the devs here are more willing to change certain aspects of the game) it is fun for what it is.
As a human player, it is weird for example that on some maps, you can't build conduits down or up a ramp. I can't build defensive structures next to my resource points. The game is not a week old, there will be patches to fix some of these things (also like the assimilator game problem).
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On January 27 2015 21:02 BluzMan wrote:
The game is the best RTS in years after SC2, but unfortunately that doesn't mean very much competition. Don't think it's viable for multiplayer for several reasons:
- Too much racial asymmetry (humans cannot expand WTF, their power grid system is quite stupid), at least the core concepts should be shared imo.
- Too much distance-irrelevant mechanics (teleports, instant building, walls etc).
- Expanding is essentially free, you only need vision to put a refinery on a resource vent, and you get full money even if it's 1000 km away from you.
- The latter is a single case of a pattern - this game exhibits a lot of "no risk, low reward" mechanics, which leads to tactics that rely on spamming actions in hope that the opponent misses something. Starcraft knew this for "sauron zerg" and "refugee protoss" both of which are relying on taking expansions faster than your opponent destroys them, and it's very sad when this is really the best way to play. I foresee that in the current state human/beta factions will eventually revolve around this. When someone proxies you in SC, it's the riskier the farther it is from their base (because worker is vulnerable, because more travel time means more time to be noticed, because you actually know beforehand etc), in GG (lol at the acronym) you can get vision with a stealth air unit and suddenly construct walls in the most ridiculous of places, distance irrelevant.
- I don't see a problem with asymmetry, I always liked that about SC as well. Humans don't need to expand, they can teleport sentinels around and teleport units all over. They can also build Air faster than Beta. They can build best walls all over and set up map control and stop harass that way.
- they are part of the greater design. Don't look at these things out of context.
- you get full money when and if first harvester returns. 2 Revolvers from humans stop harvesters, one small protean or 2 stalkers. Use them.
- This is also a part of SC, people hide expansions and tech ALL the time. Proxy tactics probably won at least 25% of all pro games. Here, you don't lose in minute 5 because of it and it promotes being active on map all the time and spend your extra APM on multitasking.
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On January 27 2015 22:21 gTank wrote:FML, wrote a text and all is gone short version: it is not an esport game (maybe will be someday because, not like Blizzard, the devs here are more willing to change certain aspects of the game) it is fun for what it is. As a human player, it is weird for example that on some maps, you can't build conduits down or up a ramp. I can't build defensive structures next to my resource points. The game is not a week old, there will be patches to fix some of these things (also like the assimilator game problem).
When HUK asked the Dev this same question, he go an answer "you cannot build them YET."
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Ah okay so they will fix it? Thats nice  Also, building in a diagonal line would be fine since now it is super awkward.
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On January 27 2015 21:02 BluzMan wrote:
- Expanding is essentially free, you only need vision to put a refinery on a resource vent, and you get full money even if it's 1000 km away from you.
I wouldn't call it free considering you have to defend the extractor, and the vulnerable workers have to travel the full distance there and back to bring in any money. Humans can get stealthed workers, but that's to work around the racial handicap and not risk-free either.
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I think we should all be happy and appreciate that a new rts game is coming out by developers who appear to care about community feedback. Even if the game turns out to be a degenerate game in terms of depth that isn't necessarily a bad thing because it seems to be gaining popularity and it will attract new and old players back into the genre. The larger the player base for rts games in general the more incentive there is for developers to risk making a new games.
Edit: Nitpicking the game this early in development isn't always the most useful activity either because of the lack of experience we have with it.
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EPT
