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I was going to ask a question on the Warhammer 40k thread, but I realized we don't have one (or an active one, at the very least). I thought this could help a fair few people, so it might deserve a regular post rather than a blog.
My roomate and I are conspiring to start playing Warhammer 40k. This would be my first tabletop game like it. Of course, my first big consideration is going to be what army to play. I really have 3 big factors when I'm choosing my Army
1) Is it fun? The asthetics of almost every race are fantastic. For anyone who loves sci-fi, I would recommend checking out 40k armies. They really are beautiful. For me, I most enjoy the look of the Tyranid Armies. As a fan of the Alien series and Zerg in Starcraft, the Tyranid's are just so perfectly alien, and they really appeal to the 10 year old kid inside of me. That being said, besides perhaps most of the sisters of battle and eldar, I think everything I've seen looks pretty fantastic (those 2-3 armies just aren't my flavor). Besides Tyranids, I really like the look of both CSM/Deamons and Space Marines/GK/SW's
Tacked onto the aesthetics, I want to have fun playing. I really hope to avoid being shoehorned into playing one or two specific ways or being a rubbish army, which I know I've heard people talking about before (namely as the Sisters of Battle, if I recall). For me, Tyranids and Space marines tend to portray the image of a playstyle that appeals to me (weather or not they actually play that way, I couldn't say). The thought of drowning enemies in a huge amount of bodies (Tyranid) is really cool, as well as having the big, beefy murder-death-kill machines (CSM and Space marines and the large Tyranid units).
2) Can I do well? While Having fun is my number one priority, I would like to make sure that I can play the army without getting frustrated either because the army is so hard to play (for instance, a lot of people probably wouldn't want to start playing DotA as someone like invoker because the mechanics would be a bit much for someone learning the game), or because the army is a tad bit weak. Very few games are very well balanced, and I'm not heading into Warhammer expecting a perfectly fair, balanced experience. I expect some things to be slightly more powerful; that's just part of playing any type of game. I just want to make sure that my army isn't super weak and I'm going to be frustrated when trying to win games because I chose one of the worst armies.
Doing some research, I have found that a lot of people aren't that happy with the new Tyranid changes, for instance. Now, coming from Starcraft, I know perfectly well that people can/will complain about any nerfs; deserved or not. As a person who isn't coming from a 40k background, I can't tell the whine from the legitimate complaints. As of now, I'm most leaning toward Tyranid, and the amount of negative stuff I'm reading about them really makes me worried about how much fun I'm going to be having playing the Tyranid army.
3) Cost. Warhammer is definitely an expensive hobby. when I found out how much I would have to spend just to get the rulebooks, not even counting the huge cost of figures/paint/time. Having not played, there is a chance that it just won't be my cup of tea. As such, I'd like to make sure that I'm not blowing a huge wad of cash all at once to get a starter army and then find out later that I won't like it. What are generally the most expensive armies to get into? What are the cheapest?
Tacked onto this question, how big (points wise) should your starter army be? Perhaps a super simple example of a quick build for a beginner would be great so we can see about how much we would need to spend to get into that army.
That's it for now guys. Feedback from some Warhammer vets would be fantastically useful, and I hope more people than I will get some use out of your wisdom. Thanks!
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If you are going to play at your local game stores, i think you should go to them, to see how active their comunities are, if they do demo games, and more importantly, try out other miniature games too. There are games with a much lower cost entry (infinity, xwing, malifaux, etc), which are growing pretty fast, and in my opinion, are much better than the rules GW can ever dream of making (not like they really give a crap tho).
My advice would be against playing GW's games, since they have very boring rulesets compared to what is offered today, and with an insane entry barrier that is basically cockblocking themselves, not to speak that they like to screw on your LGS as much as they can with what to sell. It is a horrible company to put your support on, it is like buying the sims expansions and DLC to EA.
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In 40k there are a lot of scenarios, one being "Commando" or something like that. It doesn't require a lot of units and it's kinda fun, there's a lot of different options (from my experience, the versatility of chaos makes this army quite broken, but it was years ago, the new codex came out since then).
There also are rules about 400 points army battle that are kinda cool, the strategy side is alot different compared to 1k+ points battles.
These scenarios don't require that many units and it can help you getting into the world of 40k imo 
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Warhammer 40K and Fantasy are both very entertaining tabletop games. Tyranids used to be OP as hell back in the day (much like Daemons of Chaos). I haven't played much in the latest edition but i've tried Tau and Blood Angels and both were alot of fun
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Hello,
1) Is it fun?
Yes it is, especially if you like the aspect of collecting models, assembling and painting them. It does require lots of time but it's very rewarding to see the result of your labor on the battleground.
Gaming wise, the Warhammer system is quite fun as well, the complexity usually comes from having big armies with lots of units as you can forget to do stuff during turns AND the turns become very long :p
What I like the most is probably the ability to fight equally well at range and in close quarters.
2)Can you do well?
Yes. I said the system is fun, I didn't say the system requires tactical genius. In fact, 80% of the outcome is determined by your army list + your initial deployment. If you have a plan at the start, you can execute it easily.
The problem about nerfs and possible imbalance is that, in a given army list, you are sometimes forced to choose specific units because the others are rubbish. And of course, from one version to another, stuff is getting buffed/nerfed which potentially makes your models rubbish.
Best example of that is the Rhino, the Marines' transport vehicle, once used all the time to give footmen mobility, it's now rubbish compared to the newly added drop pod because the drop pod can deploy anywhere on the table for almost the same cost in points..
tldr : system is easy and requires army list crafting done with a clear plan
3) Cost
Games Workshop stuff is ULTRA expensive. the general rule is the more models are needed to be fielded, the more money you will have to put on.
For example, Marines are expensive in pts, therefore you dont need lots of them to build an army. So are Necrons, CSM,...
Whereas Orks, Tyranids, Imperial guard rely more or less on swarming your opponent so you will need more models which means more money/time/paint
4)How big a starter army should be?
500 pts. You could follow the old patrol rules stated by sakray :
No 2+ armor save
No vehicle with more than 33 armor (sum up front+lateral+rear)
No more-than-2PV model
For tyranids, something like
Tyranid Warriors (elite)
Genestealers
One or two gaunt units
something else like fast attack or lictors
Hope that helps!
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Just wanted to point out that the biggest downside of Warhammer/40K is their release schedule, which most of the time doesn't make much sense (I was waiting for years to get my armies up-to-date with the current edition and watched in dismay as SM got a new Codex each year). It can be painful when you have to play an army that is using the point costs and rule sets from 2-3 editions past.
Other than that, I suggest you take it slow in the beginning. There's no point in buying a ton of models if after a couple of games you'll come to realise that maybe you'd like some other army. Just get your chosen army's Codex, Battleforce Box and a commander. That should set you up for early skirmishes, and BB's are actually very good value for money. This will let you see how the game is played, learn the rules and have some fun without commiting too much. I also suggest picking armies that have current rulesets already released as this will make your life much easier.
Codices that are up-to-date (it's the dawn of 7th edition but most - if not all - of 6th edition codices should do just fine):
Astra Militarum
Militarum Tempestus
Imperial Knights
Legion of the Damned (Digital Only Release)
Tyranids
Inquisition (Digital Only Release)
Adepta Sororitas (Digital Only Release)
Space Marines
Eldar
Tau Empire
Chaos Daemons
Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Orks
Space Wolves
That's almost everything (DE and IG are lagging behind, as usual).
Edit:
Oh, I forgot to mention. In 40K you can throw any notion of "balance" out the window. Just so you know.
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/
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I would strongly suggest going to some local events and watching it be played live, hell maybe someone will let you try the game with his army.
You must also consider the fun factor of putting the models together and painting them. I don't do WH but WW2 planes and just love building them. You can order your figurines to be painted by professional firms, but IMO that just takes 75% of the fun out of having models.
Lastly, money. This costs more than a drug addiction. Do not invest until you are sure. SMs are a good starting point though.
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Interesting timing. I've just now been looking to get back into the game. Collected and painted DE when I was really young, but never played much. Useful thread, and thanks for the Battleforce Box suggestion, Manit0u, didn't even know they had those.
Despite Godwrath's negative opinion of the company, I think his first point may be the most important piece of advice here. What you should play and how much you'll be expected to invest in any hobby like this will greatly vary depending on where you live and what the local community is playing.
EDIT: I would argue, cost-wise, it's not horribly worse than other gaming hobbies. The barrier for entry isn't even that bad. Compare to needing to buy a console or a PC before you can start playing video games, or shelling out the money to build a competitive MtG deck from scratch. Then reasonable box (or more) of miniatures will cost what you might spend on AAA games or new board games. Of course this is just speculation after looking at prices, but I don't see myself breaking the bank on this.
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For me, the painting was the most fun, so choose the ones that make you inspired and want to paint! Or just look cool
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Good timing on the thread, just got back into the hobby myself after keeping all my unpainted minis in a shoebox for over a decade. Quite glad I did too. Some advice for those starting out:
Aesthetics are everything, I would never play an army that I didn't like the look and feel of. The reason for this is that for the price, the only thing that makes sense is to play something you're going to be really happy owning/building/painting. It's a large investment of time and money, picking a faction you don't like just for the sake of being competitive is going to make painting and assembling them laborious. It should be fun! That's the whole reason you're doing this.
As far as competitiveness of the armies, unless you're entering tournaments you can do well with any army. Now, that's not to say you can do well with any army list. Every faction has at least some units that are competitive, but some of the weaker factions have units that are downright bad. I'd start with a 500 point list, lets you test out the game and work on your painting skills without breaking the bank. But have a good handle on the rules and get advice for a full 1500 point list before you start buying so you know what you're working towards. No reason to buy a 500 point army, then have to buy entirely different models to go up to 1500 because you made poor choices. For the Nids specifically, check out the Skyblight Swarm, which is very competitive (some would say cheesy).
Lastly, cost. EBay is your friend, as is hanging out in hobby shops hoping someone will offer to sell you an army (happens way more often than you'd think). Don't worry if the used models are primed/painted in ways you don't want, with some soaking in Simple Green and a bit of elbow grease most paint can be stripped off pretty readily. Also, Citadel brand products are usually good, but expensive. For paints I'd check out Vallejo or another 3rd party, same with brushes (I use Army Painter, they're not great but they're cheap).
Hope some of that helps, make sure to post pics of your army when you're done!
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On August 12 2014 07:32 TrickyGilligan wrote:
someone will offer to sell you an army (happens way more often than you'd think)
Heh, I've recently given like $500 worth of 40K models to the guy that's starting out. Some of them were even unpacked. Thought it's better to give it to someone who'll make use of them since they've been gathering dust on the shelves for the past year or two and I really don't have the time to assemble and paint a big army (selling stuff is boring too).
This days I've abandoned everything except Mordheim (conversions and fun) from GW's stable and I still have 2 bookcases full of 40K minis that I want to paint one day...
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I was in a similar situation couple of years ago; I played "Dawn of War" (including all addons) and was immidiately blown away by the whole Warhammer 40k scenario, then I played Dawn of War 2 and decided to give the tabletop game a try. The next thing I did was spending hours and hours on this website: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.U-sgzWMuBvA , to gather some information on the armies, the story etc. Sometimes I´m still there just because I absolutely love the Warhammer Universe.
After ~ one year or so I decided to go for the Orks, since some guy in my local GW Store was selling his orks I got a (painted) army for about 40€. Then I started playing ... and oh my god were the games boring. It´s basically all about rolling the dice. Move through forest, roll a dice, shoot, roll a dice, flee, roll a dice, use a special ability, roll a dice. Even Magic the Gathering was more dynamic than this game.
The next thing that really pissed me off was the so called "balance" when I was playing against Space Marines, Chaos or IG everything was fine and I´ve had some close matches. But playing against GK, Tau or Eldar was a pain in the ass. It was like every ork was dead before reaching the middle of the battleground.
Well and when GW decided to sell the new codices for 40€ instead of 23€ (just because it´s a hardcover) I decided to quit. In terms of pricing policy GW is probably the worst company out there. Selling one synthetic minature - about the size of a USB stick - for 36€ is just ridiculous.
Anyways, I would recommend to you that you visit your local GW store and ask for a couple of testing games. In my local store they offer these every friday. There you can choose your army and play vs the shop-owner. Sometimes I still go there just for a couple of mins and watch the other guys/girls play.
And if you are interested in getting started, go and check out ebay for some good offers.
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Blood Angels are the best fluffwise. Sangiunius was awesome, Dante is cool. :D
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I also got hooked on 40k with Dawn of War 1/2.It was my first wargame and I've ended up assembling an almost 10K Points Imperial Guard force and am at the final stages of painting it all (only 2 tanks and 100 infantry to go).
However it will only be a display piece sitting there just for the great looks.
The models are mostly great and the setting is full of character, but the game of 40k is very, very bad.
If you have a great gaming group and friends it can be fun while you learn the rules, but it goes down hill from there.
The models are very expensive (and you'll needs lots of them) as are the rules. There is no balance whatsoever in a game of 40k, no matter that the rules are insanely expensive.
The gameplay is best describe as clunky and slow. There are rules that make no sense, tons of special rules and exceptions and rules that ignore the exceptions ect. There is a lot of random in the game, in some cases to ridiculous degree. There's mostly no place for tactics a well built list almost plays itself. Internal and inter army balance is mostly nonexistent at the moment.
The models on the other side, can be amazing. I love my Guardsmen and tanks, and that's why they aren't being sold on e-bay, but kept as display pieces.
At the moment there are lots of other far better and much cheaper games with great models out there then 40k.
Drop Zone Commander,Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Warmachine\Hordes and many others are all great games with much lower startup cost.
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GW is mostly about the hobby and not the actual game.
Edit! Go Orks obviously. Especially Brian Nelson Orks.
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So much ork players yay
Also JoeCool, that's true lots of dice are involved, perhaps too much yes, but sometimes (especially with orks) it's fun to see a completely unpredicted outcome such as some succeeded rockit shots on something expensive, or a hero moral test =)
I think your problem is mainly due to the fact that while one player does all its stuff, you are pretty much left with nothing to do in the meantime thus rendering the game boring. Hopefully the more games you play the faster you are with your turns
I will look at the herald rules tho, thanks for pointing this out snotling !
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The game wasnt fun enough for me to justify those costs.
They are little plastic shits made by a press and they have the costs as if some glas blower made them by hand from his most expensive crystal glas.
Unless you find some poisonous old lead models, which they discount to sell them to desperate broke teenagers.
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My opinion: the models look good and it's fun to paint them. The game itself is quite boring and a pain in the ass to set up. The fun/dollar ratio is quite bad. GW pricing policy is ridiculous.
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On August 13 2014 23:39 freelander wrote:
My opinion: the models look good and it's fun to paint them. The game itself is quite boring and a pain in the ass to set up. The fun/dollar ratio is quite bad. GW pricing policy is ridiculous.
I think that the most fun you can get in 40K is in games of up to 1k points (preserving all the old FOC rules, completely disregarding special characters). Anything beyond that and it gets slow, boring and much more imbalanced. With smaller games it's actually pretty intense and much more challenging on the tactical side (since every loss hurts). I have no idea why they even released Apocalypse (probably for people who were collecting a single army for over 20 years and had gazillion minis), it must be super clunky and even checking out the buckets of dice you're rolling must be extremely tedious.
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EPT
