I was going to ask a question on the Warhammer 40k thread, but I realized we don't have one (or an active one, at the very least). I thought this could help a fair few people, so it might deserve a regular post rather than a blog.
My roomate and I are conspiring to start playing Warhammer 40k. This would be my first tabletop game like it. Of course, my first big consideration is going to be what army to play. I really have 3 big factors when I'm choosing my Army
1) Is it fun? The asthetics of almost every race are fantastic. For anyone who loves sci-fi, I would recommend checking out 40k armies. They really are beautiful. For me, I most enjoy the look of the Tyranid Armies. As a fan of the Alien series and Zerg in Starcraft, the Tyranid's are just so perfectly alien, and they really appeal to the 10 year old kid inside of me. That being said, besides perhaps most of the sisters of battle and eldar, I think everything I've seen looks pretty fantastic (those 2-3 armies just aren't my flavor). Besides Tyranids, I really like the look of both CSM/Deamons and Space Marines/GK/SW's
Tacked onto the aesthetics, I want to have fun playing. I really hope to avoid being shoehorned into playing one or two specific ways or being a rubbish army, which I know I've heard people talking about before (namely as the Sisters of Battle, if I recall). For me, Tyranids and Space marines tend to portray the image of a playstyle that appeals to me (weather or not they actually play that way, I couldn't say). The thought of drowning enemies in a huge amount of bodies (Tyranid) is really cool, as well as having the big, beefy murder-death-kill machines (CSM and Space marines and the large Tyranid units).
2) Can I do well? While Having fun is my number one priority, I would like to make sure that I can play the army without getting frustrated either because the army is so hard to play (for instance, a lot of people probably wouldn't want to start playing DotA as someone like invoker because the mechanics would be a bit much for someone learning the game), or because the army is a tad bit weak. Very few games are very well balanced, and I'm not heading into Warhammer expecting a perfectly fair, balanced experience. I expect some things to be slightly more powerful; that's just part of playing any type of game. I just want to make sure that my army isn't super weak and I'm going to be frustrated when trying to win games because I chose one of the worst armies.
Doing some research, I have found that a lot of people aren't that happy with the new Tyranid changes, for instance. Now, coming from Starcraft, I know perfectly well that people can/will complain about any nerfs; deserved or not. As a person who isn't coming from a 40k background, I can't tell the whine from the legitimate complaints. As of now, I'm most leaning toward Tyranid, and the amount of negative stuff I'm reading about them really makes me worried about how much fun I'm going to be having playing the Tyranid army.
3) Cost. Warhammer is definitely an expensive hobby. when I found out how much I would have to spend just to get the rulebooks, not even counting the huge cost of figures/paint/time. Having not played, there is a chance that it just won't be my cup of tea. As such, I'd like to make sure that I'm not blowing a huge wad of cash all at once to get a starter army and then find out later that I won't like it. What are generally the most expensive armies to get into? What are the cheapest?
Tacked onto this question, how big (points wise) should your starter army be? Perhaps a super simple example of a quick build for a beginner would be great so we can see about how much we would need to spend to get into that army.
That's it for now guys. Feedback from some Warhammer vets would be fantastically useful, and I hope more people than I will get some use out of your wisdom. Thanks!
If you are going to play at your local game stores, i think you should go to them, to see how active their comunities are, if they do demo games, and more importantly, try out other miniature games too. There are games with a much lower cost entry (infinity, xwing, malifaux, etc), which are growing pretty fast, and in my opinion, are much better than the rules GW can ever dream of making (not like they really give a crap tho).
My advice would be against playing GW's games, since they have very boring rulesets compared to what is offered today, and with an insane entry barrier that is basically cockblocking themselves, not to speak that they like to screw on your LGS as much as they can with what to sell. It is a horrible company to put your support on, it is like buying the sims expansions and DLC to EA.
In 40k there are a lot of scenarios, one being "Commando" or something like that. It doesn't require a lot of units and it's kinda fun, there's a lot of different options (from my experience, the versatility of chaos makes this army quite broken, but it was years ago, the new codex came out since then). There also are rules about 400 points army battle that are kinda cool, the strategy side is alot different compared to 1k+ points battles.
These scenarios don't require that many units and it can help you getting into the world of 40k imo
Warhammer 40K and Fantasy are both very entertaining tabletop games. Tyranids used to be OP as hell back in the day (much like Daemons of Chaos). I haven't played much in the latest edition but i've tried Tau and Blood Angels and both were alot of fun
1) Is it fun? Yes it is, especially if you like the aspect of collecting models, assembling and painting them. It does require lots of time but it's very rewarding to see the result of your labor on the battleground. Gaming wise, the Warhammer system is quite fun as well, the complexity usually comes from having big armies with lots of units as you can forget to do stuff during turns AND the turns become very long :p What I like the most is probably the ability to fight equally well at range and in close quarters.
2)Can you do well? Yes. I said the system is fun, I didn't say the system requires tactical genius. In fact, 80% of the outcome is determined by your army list + your initial deployment. If you have a plan at the start, you can execute it easily. The problem about nerfs and possible imbalance is that, in a given army list, you are sometimes forced to choose specific units because the others are rubbish. And of course, from one version to another, stuff is getting buffed/nerfed which potentially makes your models rubbish. Best example of that is the Rhino, the Marines' transport vehicle, once used all the time to give footmen mobility, it's now rubbish compared to the newly added drop pod because the drop pod can deploy anywhere on the table for almost the same cost in points.. tldr : system is easy and requires army list crafting done with a clear plan
3) Cost Games Workshop stuff is ULTRA expensive. the general rule is the more models are needed to be fielded, the more money you will have to put on. For example, Marines are expensive in pts, therefore you dont need lots of them to build an army. So are Necrons, CSM,... Whereas Orks, Tyranids, Imperial guard rely more or less on swarming your opponent so you will need more models which means more money/time/paint
4)How big a starter army should be? 500 pts. You could follow the old patrol rules stated by sakray : No 2+ armor save No vehicle with more than 33 armor (sum up front+lateral+rear) No more-than-2PV model
For tyranids, something like Tyranid Warriors (elite) Genestealers One or two gaunt units something else like fast attack or lictors
Just wanted to point out that the biggest downside of Warhammer/40K is their release schedule, which most of the time doesn't make much sense (I was waiting for years to get my armies up-to-date with the current edition and watched in dismay as SM got a new Codex each year). It can be painful when you have to play an army that is using the point costs and rule sets from 2-3 editions past.
Other than that, I suggest you take it slow in the beginning. There's no point in buying a ton of models if after a couple of games you'll come to realise that maybe you'd like some other army. Just get your chosen army's Codex, Battleforce Box and a commander. That should set you up for early skirmishes, and BB's are actually very good value for money. This will let you see how the game is played, learn the rules and have some fun without commiting too much. I also suggest picking armies that have current rulesets already released as this will make your life much easier.
Codices that are up-to-date (it's the dawn of 7th edition but most - if not all - of 6th edition codices should do just fine): Astra Militarum Militarum Tempestus Imperial Knights Legion of the Damned (Digital Only Release) Tyranids Inquisition (Digital Only Release) Adepta Sororitas (Digital Only Release) Space Marines Eldar Tau Empire Chaos Daemons Dark Angels Chaos Space Marines Orks Space Wolves
That's almost everything (DE and IG are lagging behind, as usual).
Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention. In 40K you can throw any notion of "balance" out the window. Just so you know.
I would strongly suggest going to some local events and watching it be played live, hell maybe someone will let you try the game with his army. You must also consider the fun factor of putting the models together and painting them. I don't do WH but WW2 planes and just love building them. You can order your figurines to be painted by professional firms, but IMO that just takes 75% of the fun out of having models.
Lastly, money. This costs more than a drug addiction. Do not invest until you are sure. SMs are a good starting point though.
Interesting timing. I've just now been looking to get back into the game. Collected and painted DE when I was really young, but never played much. Useful thread, and thanks for the Battleforce Box suggestion, Manit0u, didn't even know they had those.
Despite Godwrath's negative opinion of the company, I think his first point may be the most important piece of advice here. What you should play and how much you'll be expected to invest in any hobby like this will greatly vary depending on where you live and what the local community is playing.
EDIT: I would argue, cost-wise, it's not horribly worse than other gaming hobbies. The barrier for entry isn't even that bad. Compare to needing to buy a console or a PC before you can start playing video games, or shelling out the money to build a competitive MtG deck from scratch. Then reasonable box (or more) of miniatures will cost what you might spend on AAA games or new board games. Of course this is just speculation after looking at prices, but I don't see myself breaking the bank on this.
Good timing on the thread, just got back into the hobby myself after keeping all my unpainted minis in a shoebox for over a decade. Quite glad I did too. Some advice for those starting out:
Aesthetics are everything, I would never play an army that I didn't like the look and feel of. The reason for this is that for the price, the only thing that makes sense is to play something you're going to be really happy owning/building/painting. It's a large investment of time and money, picking a faction you don't like just for the sake of being competitive is going to make painting and assembling them laborious. It should be fun! That's the whole reason you're doing this.
As far as competitiveness of the armies, unless you're entering tournaments you can do well with any army. Now, that's not to say you can do well with any army list. Every faction has at least some units that are competitive, but some of the weaker factions have units that are downright bad. I'd start with a 500 point list, lets you test out the game and work on your painting skills without breaking the bank. But have a good handle on the rules and get advice for a full 1500 point list before you start buying so you know what you're working towards. No reason to buy a 500 point army, then have to buy entirely different models to go up to 1500 because you made poor choices. For the Nids specifically, check out the Skyblight Swarm, which is very competitive (some would say cheesy).
Lastly, cost. EBay is your friend, as is hanging out in hobby shops hoping someone will offer to sell you an army (happens way more often than you'd think). Don't worry if the used models are primed/painted in ways you don't want, with some soaking in Simple Green and a bit of elbow grease most paint can be stripped off pretty readily. Also, Citadel brand products are usually good, but expensive. For paints I'd check out Vallejo or another 3rd party, same with brushes (I use Army Painter, they're not great but they're cheap).
Hope some of that helps, make sure to post pics of your army when you're done!
On August 12 2014 07:32 TrickyGilligan wrote: someone will offer to sell you an army (happens way more often than you'd think)
Heh, I've recently given like $500 worth of 40K models to the guy that's starting out. Some of them were even unpacked. Thought it's better to give it to someone who'll make use of them since they've been gathering dust on the shelves for the past year or two and I really don't have the time to assemble and paint a big army (selling stuff is boring too).
This days I've abandoned everything except Mordheim (conversions and fun) from GW's stable and I still have 2 bookcases full of 40K minis that I want to paint one day...
I was in a similar situation couple of years ago; I played "Dawn of War" (including all addons) and was immidiately blown away by the whole Warhammer 40k scenario, then I played Dawn of War 2 and decided to give the tabletop game a try. The next thing I did was spending hours and hours on this website: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.U-sgzWMuBvA , to gather some information on the armies, the story etc. Sometimes I´m still there just because I absolutely love the Warhammer Universe.
After ~ one year or so I decided to go for the Orks, since some guy in my local GW Store was selling his orks I got a (painted) army for about 40€. Then I started playing ... and oh my god were the games boring. It´s basically all about rolling the dice. Move through forest, roll a dice, shoot, roll a dice, flee, roll a dice, use a special ability, roll a dice. Even Magic the Gathering was more dynamic than this game. The next thing that really pissed me off was the so called "balance" when I was playing against Space Marines, Chaos or IG everything was fine and I´ve had some close matches. But playing against GK, Tau or Eldar was a pain in the ass. It was like every ork was dead before reaching the middle of the battleground. Well and when GW decided to sell the new codices for 40€ instead of 23€ (just because it´s a hardcover) I decided to quit. In terms of pricing policy GW is probably the worst company out there. Selling one synthetic minature - about the size of a USB stick - for 36€ is just ridiculous.
Anyways, I would recommend to you that you visit your local GW store and ask for a couple of testing games. In my local store they offer these every friday. There you can choose your army and play vs the shop-owner. Sometimes I still go there just for a couple of mins and watch the other guys/girls play. And if you are interested in getting started, go and check out ebay for some good offers.
I also got hooked on 40k with Dawn of War 1/2.It was my first wargame and I've ended up assembling an almost 10K Points Imperial Guard force and am at the final stages of painting it all (only 2 tanks and 100 infantry to go). However it will only be a display piece sitting there just for the great looks. The models are mostly great and the setting is full of character, but the game of 40k is very, very bad.
If you have a great gaming group and friends it can be fun while you learn the rules, but it goes down hill from there. The models are very expensive (and you'll needs lots of them) as are the rules. There is no balance whatsoever in a game of 40k, no matter that the rules are insanely expensive. The gameplay is best describe as clunky and slow. There are rules that make no sense, tons of special rules and exceptions and rules that ignore the exceptions ect. There is a lot of random in the game, in some cases to ridiculous degree. There's mostly no place for tactics a well built list almost plays itself. Internal and inter army balance is mostly nonexistent at the moment.
The models on the other side, can be amazing. I love my Guardsmen and tanks, and that's why they aren't being sold on e-bay, but kept as display pieces.
At the moment there are lots of other far better and much cheaper games with great models out there then 40k. Drop Zone Commander,Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Warmachine\Hordes and many others are all great games with much lower startup cost.
Also JoeCool, that's true lots of dice are involved, perhaps too much yes, but sometimes (especially with orks) it's fun to see a completely unpredicted outcome such as some succeeded rockit shots on something expensive, or a hero moral test =)
I think your problem is mainly due to the fact that while one player does all its stuff, you are pretty much left with nothing to do in the meantime thus rendering the game boring. Hopefully the more games you play the faster you are with your turns
I will look at the herald rules tho, thanks for pointing this out snotling !
My opinion: the models look good and it's fun to paint them. The game itself is quite boring and a pain in the ass to set up. The fun/dollar ratio is quite bad. GW pricing policy is ridiculous.
On August 13 2014 23:39 freelander wrote: My opinion: the models look good and it's fun to paint them. The game itself is quite boring and a pain in the ass to set up. The fun/dollar ratio is quite bad. GW pricing policy is ridiculous.
I think that the most fun you can get in 40K is in games of up to 1k points (preserving all the old FOC rules, completely disregarding special characters). Anything beyond that and it gets slow, boring and much more imbalanced. With smaller games it's actually pretty intense and much more challenging on the tactical side (since every loss hurts). I have no idea why they even released Apocalypse (probably for people who were collecting a single army for over 20 years and had gazillion minis), it must be super clunky and even checking out the buckets of dice you're rolling must be extremely tedious.
On August 13 2014 23:39 freelander wrote: My opinion: the models look good and it's fun to paint them. The game itself is quite boring and a pain in the ass to set up. The fun/dollar ratio is quite bad. GW pricing policy is ridiculous.
I have no idea why they even released Apocalypse
my bet would be to sell big, overpriced minatures....
On August 11 2014 16:14 Arisen wrote: I was going to ask a question on the Warhammer 40k thread, but I realized we don't have one (or an active one, at the very least). I thought this could help a fair few people, so it might deserve a regular post rather than a blog.
My roomate and I are conspiring to start playing Warhammer 40k. This would be my first tabletop game like it. Of course, my first big consideration is going to be what army to play. I really have 3 big factors when I'm choosing my Army
1) Is it fun? The asthetics of almost every race are fantastic. For anyone who loves sci-fi, I would recommend checking out 40k armies. They really are beautiful. For me, I most enjoy the look of the Tyranid Armies. As a fan of the Alien series and Zerg in Starcraft, the Tyranid's are just so perfectly alien, and they really appeal to the 10 year old kid inside of me. That being said, besides perhaps most of the sisters of battle and eldar, I think everything I've seen looks pretty fantastic (those 2-3 armies just aren't my flavor). Besides Tyranids, I really like the look of both CSM/Deamons and Space Marines/GK/SW's
Tacked onto the aesthetics, I want to have fun playing. I really hope to avoid being shoehorned into playing one or two specific ways or being a rubbish army, which I know I've heard people talking about before (namely as the Sisters of Battle, if I recall). For me, Tyranids and Space marines tend to portray the image of a playstyle that appeals to me (weather or not they actually play that way, I couldn't say). The thought of drowning enemies in a huge amount of bodies (Tyranid) is really cool, as well as having the big, beefy murder-death-kill machines (CSM and Space marines and the large Tyranid units).
The game is very fun, in my opinion, both the fluff and the game itself. I enjoy playing and collecting/painting both pretty equally. Most armies have a high amount of variance in how to play. For the armies you listed, Tyranids can do spammy armies of small things that flood the board, or lists with big monstrous creatures that are tough to kill. SM armies can vary into specialist troops, heavy vehicles, flyers, or Drop Pod focused first-strike armies. CSM has lots of specialist troops, some big vehicles/Daemons, and ally quit well with Daemons if you want to go that route.
You can realistically make an army of your choosing out of a lot of things. Find something fun and then work on making a list out of it. And if you enjoy the hobby aspect (collecting, modelling, and painting), then it's even more fun.
2) Can I do well? While Having fun is my number one priority, I would like to make sure that I can play the army without getting frustrated either because the army is so hard to play (for instance, a lot of people probably wouldn't want to start playing DotA as someone like invoker because the mechanics would be a bit much for someone learning the game), or because the army is a tad bit weak. Very few games are very well balanced, and I'm not heading into Warhammer expecting a perfectly fair, balanced experience. I expect some things to be slightly more powerful; that's just part of playing any type of game. I just want to make sure that my army isn't super weak and I'm going to be frustrated when trying to win games because I chose one of the worst armies.
Doing some research, I have found that a lot of people aren't that happy with the new Tyranid changes, for instance. Now, coming from Starcraft, I know perfectly well that people can/will complain about any nerfs; deserved or not. As a person who isn't coming from a 40k background, I can't tell the whine from the legitimate complaints. As of now, I'm most leaning toward Tyranid, and the amount of negative stuff I'm reading about them really makes me worried about how much fun I'm going to be having playing the Tyranid army.
As far as doing well, it really depends on a lot of things. Like I said, you can make a list out of anything, but that doesn't mean every list is going to be good. I think every army in the game can win against any other, as long as they build their force correctly. There are some bad units in each army, and each army has at least a few units that are so good they feel broken.
Tyranids, despite a lot of whining on forums after their new codex dropped, are doing quite well right now with Monstrous Creature and Flyer focused lists. Their Psychic presence is very high, and their big bugs like the Hive Tyrant are very good. They have trouble with some armies, but for the most part are ok as long as you play right.
There is a modicum of tactics in 40k. It's not just line up and shoot/charge each other, you definitely have to think about things like positioning, focus fire, using cover, etc.
It also depends on who you play with. If you play with people that spend thousands on the game, play in tournaments, and min/max their lists, you'll have a hard time unless you do the same. But in a mostly casual environment, you shouldn't have to deal with them. If you want to play in that sort of super-competitive environment, you have a lot of work ahead of you.
3) Cost. Warhammer is definitely an expensive hobby. when I found out how much I would have to spend just to get the rulebooks, not even counting the huge cost of figures/paint/time. Having not played, there is a chance that it just won't be my cup of tea. As such, I'd like to make sure that I'm not blowing a huge wad of cash all at once to get a starter army and then find out later that I won't like it. What are generally the most expensive armies to get into? What are the cheapest?
Tacked onto this question, how big (points wise) should your starter army be? Perhaps a super simple example of a quick build for a beginner would be great so we can see about how much we would need to spend to get into that army.
Every army gets expensive, just in different ways. In "Elite" armies, with small model counts of powerful units, those models tend to be expensive. In spam armies, you have to buy a lot of gribblies, even if each box is cheaper. And remember, the Rules and Army Codex books together will run you over $100.
The easiest way to get to know if you want to play is to play with someone else's stuff. Go to a game store or Games Workshop near you. Ask someone if you can play with their army, and most people will say yes (the GW employees will always get you a free game if you come in and ask). Do this once or twice to get a feel of the system, and then start small.
The smallest recommended starting army is 500-750, but the game doesn't "balance out" until 1000-1500 imo. In 500, Big Bug Tyranid lists will suck because you don't have enough points, but spam little bug armies will be ok. Tyranids grow in power exponentially the more points they get. If you decide you want to play Nids, plenty of people can help you with list building.
On August 12 2014 05:56 Manit0u wrote: Other than that, I suggest you take it slow in the beginning. There's no point in buying a ton of models if after a couple of games you'll come to realise that maybe you'd like some other army. Just get your chosen army's Codex, Battleforce Box and a commander. That should set you up for early skirmishes, and BB's are actually very good value for money. This will let you see how the game is played, learn the rules and have some fun without commiting too much. I also suggest picking armies that have current rulesets already released as this will make your life much easier.
Codices that are up-to-date (it's the dawn of 7th edition but most - if not all - of 6th edition codices should do just fine): Astra Militarum Militarum Tempestus Imperial Knights Legion of the Damned (Digital Only Release) Tyranids Inquisition (Digital Only Release) Adepta Sororitas (Digital Only Release) Space Marines Eldar Tau Empire Chaos Daemons Dark Angels Chaos Space Marines Orks Space Wolves
That's almost everything (DE and IG are lagging behind, as usual).
IG is Astra Militarum
The only things that aren't up-to-date are Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Grey Knights. Grey Knights should be coming out next month or so.
Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention. In 40K you can throw any notion of "balance" out the window. Just so you know.
Imbalance really only comes up in tourney level games. For the average player, assuming you aren't playing against cheesy assholes who don't want you to have fun, the game is not too imbalanced towards most armies.
On August 14 2014 04:09 Requizen wrote: Tyranids, despite a lot of whining on forums after their new codex dropped, are doing quite well right now with Monstrous Creature and Flyer focused lists. Their Psychic presence is very high, and their big bugs like the Hive Tyrant are very good. They have trouble with some armies, but for the most part are ok as long as you play right.
I haven't read the newest Codex Tyranids (which is surprising, seeing how I own 3 previous codexes and adore the army) but after their latest incarnation I'm quite sceptic. Why are the people whining now? It seems that nids got some boosts in initiative department (hoorah!), but not much else. The only real change I was looking for in the newest codex is if they have finally adjusted their TOUGHNESS (they didn't, which means that your big, bad, expensive monsters can be killed by regular guardsmen armed with flashlights without much sweat).
Also, facing DE is an absolute nightmare for nids (Remember the guardsmen? This gus have it even easier).
Every army gets expensive, just in different ways. In "Elite" armies, with small model counts of powerful units, those models tend to be expensive. In spam armies, you have to buy a lot of gribblies, even if each box is cheaper. And remember, the Rules and Army Codex books together will run you over $100.
The easiest way to get to know if you want to play is to play with someone else's stuff. Go to a game store or Games Workshop near you. Ask someone if you can play with their army, and most people will say yes (the GW employees will always get you a free game if you come in and ask). Do this once or twice to get a feel of the system, and then start small.
The smallest recommended starting army is 500-750, but the game doesn't "balance out" until 1000-1500 imo. In 500, Big Bug Tyranid lists will suck because you don't have enough points, but spam little bug armies will be ok. Tyranids grow in power exponentially the more points they get. If you decide you want to play Nids, plenty of people can help you with list building.
First of all, "elite" armies will still be less expensive than "swarm" armies of comparable points value. All you need to do to verify that is take a look at the cost of their basic units (which you'll need either way).
Now, it seems that the "swarm" guys are cheaper, but in fact if you want to build a full squad the costs look like that:
Space Marines $39 (full squad, with sergeant, heavy weapon and special weapon) Orks $107 (full squad of boyz, with nob, special and heavy weapons)
Note that under the previous edition rules (last edition I attempted to play) you needed at least 2 "basic" squads and a commander in your force...
Also, I disagree on Nids getting better the more points grow. More points means more cheap units for the enemy that can kill your big and expensive dudes. Nidzilla is dead (and has been for a while).
Imbalance really only comes up in tourney level games. For the average player, assuming you aren't playing against cheesy assholes who don't want you to have fun, the game is not too imbalanced towards most armies.
For the average player, if you pick Nids and your friend picks DE as you starter armies, neither of you are going to have fun (unless you enjoy being slaughtered/slaughtering your opponent every single time).
Competitive scene is actually more balanced (despite the game not being balanced) because everyone wants to succeed, everyone knows what's best and everyone's going to use it (pretty much like WarCraft II, where everyone plays orcs). You can't deny the fact that there are instagib matchups in 40K.
On August 14 2014 04:30 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: is there a similar thread for fantasy?
You can start one if you wish. I find it better than 40K (6th edition killed it for me) and am seriously considering going back to basics (as I was originally playing WFB since 4th but switched entirely to 40k around 6th - was playing 40k since 2nd).
Throw all notions of balance at any matchup, at any army list, at any points cost. Oh and get ready for possible the worst rules ever written. That is 40k is a nutshell. Still I've had 20 years of fun with 40k in a very casual setting whilst acknowledging the bullshit that is part of 40k. Just pick and paint the models you like and have fun with friends. If you want to have fun competitively, you are going to need to educate yourself a lot. Like seriously, there are so many codexes to go through, so many rule revisions to go through and so many tournaments with different rules.
I am a competitive WH40k player who has been collecting them since I was 12 (16 years now).
First of all.. ignore the haters. GW is a funny business in that they equally rope in and make sweet passionate love to their user base but they also create bitter whiney people that constantly threaten to "leave" and play other games. 40k can be life changing cool and good for you OR it can be another game.. ultimately people telling you "this one is boring" or "it's got bad rules" are the kind of people you should ignore.. go to a shop, watch a game, check out bat reps on youtube or read up on it.. this game has a RICH tradition in awesomeness and if you don't believe me read into it but don't listen to the haters.. they are everywhere.
Some questions I saw:
1. Is it expensive? YES! It certainly is out of the box and ordered online. Can you do it cheaper? YES! Craigslist, ebay, local connections, facebook groups etc.. or if you are super creative you can mod things and use models from other games (within reason).
2. Is it fun? Find out for yourself but my extremely biased opinion is that it is one of the coolest and most fun things you can do. It is also a social game by nature.. I've strengthened friendships, made new ones and obtained some of my absolute best friends in life through this game.
3. Elite armies OP? I play Nids. Generally considered a upper mid tier army in competition (I Play in the biggest tourneys outside of ETC there is!) and I can tell you that while I LOVE winning my love for the bugs is greater and even with them not being Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Space Marines I still am ranked #2 in the ITC (simply put: ranking for all the best players in the USA around the west coast). Some armies are way better than others but for the MOST part all of them CAN win even in the most competitive scenes.. just fewer options on how they do that etc.
If you have more questions fire away. I tweet about WH40k and I am apart of team0comp which is one of/the best team on the west coast
I was choosing Eldar as my start. As agility/range has always been a thing for me. I always choose agility types over strength (that's kind of my MO when it comes to games) But the part that killed it for me, really was the price. When I first got interested, I had no income, so it was literally impossible for me. That and I wasn't great with painting at that time (and super lazy ) However, I still sort of follow 40k because i love the lore and stuff. I always read up on it when I can.
From what I remember when I was trying to learn though, Space Marines and Chaos Marines were the most common that I have seen. Only because they are pretty much overall rounded good in all aspects. While not having anything that would cripple them like Eldar or Human being physically weak in combat etc. But I also remember that Necrons were considered very strong and hard to kill also.
But yes 40k takes a long time to learn. A LONG time to learn. Codexes, painting, general strat and learning. It is harder then a traditional hobby like video games tends to be. You have to invest yourself deeply into the game. And also you need a good environment too, with people willing to help you with it. (Learning part I mean) So, I mean if you can pick it up, good luck It is fun, but time consuming as hell lol
I am a competitive WH40k player who has been collecting them since I was 12 (16 years now).
First of all.. ignore the haters. GW is a funny business in that they equally rope in and make sweet passionate love to their user base but they also create bitter whiney people that constantly threaten to "leave" and play other games. 40k can be life changing cool and good for you OR it can be another game.. ultimately people telling you "this one is boring" or "it's got bad rules" are the kind of people you should ignore.. go to a shop, watch a game, check out bat reps on youtube or read up on it.. this game has a RICH tradition in awesomeness and if you don't believe me read into it but don't listen to the haters.. they are everywhere.
Some questions I saw:
1. Is it expensive? YES! It certainly is out of the box and ordered online. Can you do it cheaper? YES! Craigslist, ebay, local connections, facebook groups etc.. or if you are super creative you can mod things and use models from other games (within reason).
2. Is it fun? Find out for yourself but my extremely biased opinion is that it is one of the coolest and most fun things you can do. It is also a social game by nature.. I've strengthened friendships, made new ones and obtained some of my absolute best friends in life through this game.
3. Elite armies OP? I play Nids. Generally considered a upper mid tier army in competition (I Play in the biggest tourneys outside of ETC there is!) and I can tell you that while I LOVE winning my love for the bugs is greater and even with them not being Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Space Marines I still am ranked #2 in the ITC (simply put: ranking for all the best players in the USA around the west coast). Some armies are way better than others but for the MOST part all of them CAN win even in the most competitive scenes.. just fewer options on how they do that etc.
If you have more questions fire away. I tweet about WH40k and I am apart of team0comp which is one of/the best team on the west coast
Sweet. Cool to get a response from iNcontroL. As a new player, if I choose to play Tyranids, are there any types of armies/units I should be avoiding? I wouldn't want to just copy a competitive list and start with that because there's a good chance I won't know enough about the game to play that army the way I should. I've heard in a few youtube videos I've watched that Tyranids can be pretty punishing to newer players especially because you don't know how to position yourself. I've been trying to find VLOGs etc for awhile, but it's hard to tell who is just whining (no, MY race is harder) or if that really is true, and what I can do about it.
As a competitive player, what would you say is a good place point wise to start playing at to learn the game? In a game like WH40k i have to imagine it's hard for every army to be relevant at any point value range; as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you're playing at 500 points you can't really field a lot of big bugs, etc.
On a related note, is there a good community site for WH40k? I'm finding it's hard to find a lot of information about warhammer if you don't know where to look. It would be nice to be able look for good lists for beginners and talk strategy/read articles.
Thanks for everyone who gave me feedback! I hope a few people got some good use out of this thread and not just me!
If you want to start by playing small points value, you are going to need a lot of house rules, oherwise you will just see a lot of army list wins. Search for 40k in 40 minutes or equivalents.
On a related note, is there a good community site for WH40k? I'm finding it's hard to find a lot of information about warhammer if you don't know where to look. It would be nice to be able look for good lists for beginners and talk strategy/read articles.
I'm not sure how big of an area you live in, but in the several nerd-boutiques around my city, I have yet to see one that doesn't offer some support for WH40k and only one that doesn't have an active community playing there. We just got a Games Workshop store here about 2 years ago, and it's a really cool place with a friendly owner. Even without a site, you're playing what is probably the most popular miniatures game on the market, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find some kindred spirits.
I would encourage you to shop around for the options in the market. I agree with iNcontroL's points, but I would argue that his message could apply to most miniatures games. As long as there is a community nearby to play with, the other games are worth a look. Personally, I love buying these sorts of things new, and the price tag on 40k was little to much for my playgroup, so we're going with Infinity.
On August 16 2014 13:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Eldar don't appeal to you?
You have to at least admit that Eldar vehicles are the sexiest things in all of Warhammer, though, right?
Just not my flavor of fantasy/sci-fi. I like alien feeling things, and eldar don't do it for me. The wriathlord/knight look pretty cool, I'll admit, but I don't think they look half as good as a Mawloc or Trigon. That's just me though.
While we're on the subject, can you guys write a little about the pickable factions? Like I heard Space Marines are generally well rounded and can deal reasonably well with everything thrown at them. They are also a good starting point for new people. Don't expect to field many models. Chaos Space Marines are like SMs but excel more at offence and with much cooler units like Defiler, Hell Drake Daemon Prince and Forgefiend Expect to field even fewer models than you did with SMs. Tyranids are CQC specialists, field a lot of weak models mixed in with specialist high-damage ones. Pretty versatile but have a hard time brining down armoured units I've heard? Eldar have good psychik abilities, a highly specialised army that can deal with anything, BUT requires fielding the right units and relying on synergy. Necrons A sturdy but not very exciting mix of units. Specialise in mid range combat? Roll for their units to rise back up from the dead? If Tyranids or Orks get close, Necrons will get shredded up close? Orks Another zergy army, but with a lot of options to field. Can spec for both melee and ranged combat. Individually units have low stats, but when 12/15 models roll for 2-3 shots each and then charge in to melee they can do surprisingly well, or incredibly poorly. Bring lots of die. Tau High mobility, good long-range damage. Melee virtually non-existent. Basic squads and units (Fire caste, Krooks?) high model count. Imperial Guard basic units literally cannon fodder armed with flashlights. Elite and Armour effective, versatile, specialised. Deamons Pretty much CQC everything. Dark Eldar Fragile, hyperagressive. 1 bad decision or dice roll = dead.
I'm not really up to date on the codexes and what each new edition brings. These are kinda ball park guesses from the overall general trend.
On August 12 2014 06:35 chasemme wrote: Interesting timing. I've just now been looking to get back into the game. Collected and painted DE when I was really young, but never played much. Useful thread, and thanks for the Battleforce Box suggestion, Manit0u, didn't even know they had those.
Despite Godwrath's negative opinion of the company, I think his first point may be the most important piece of advice here. What you should play and how much you'll be expected to invest in any hobby like this will greatly vary depending on where you live and what the local community is playing.
EDIT: I would argue, cost-wise, it's not horribly worse than other gaming hobbies. The barrier for entry isn't even that bad. Compare to needing to buy a console or a PC before you can start playing video games, or shelling out the money to build a competitive MtG deck from scratch. Then reasonable box (or more) of miniatures will cost what you might spend on AAA games or new board games. Of course this is just speculation after looking at prices, but I don't see myself breaking the bank on this.
The cost is actually pretty bad.
You're comparing playing 40k casually to playing MtG competitively. If you do a fair comparsion, we can see that casual (yet competent) MtG decks run under $50. As for the video game comparison, a video game console is still probably cheaper than the entry level for 40k, mostly due to the fact that the majority of people that play it play at 1500+ point levels, which will cost you several hundred dollars. For years I found it quite difficult to get small point games in because the interest is so low. As for other TT games, GWS is easily the most expensive company out there. Many TT games are much smaller in scope, and even Warmachine, which can get a pretty high model count, is noticeably less expensive. As for my overall recommendations, I would just say this. I absolutely LOVE the Warhammer universe(s). They're really fun, diverse, and have room for a lot of customization and whatnot.
The downside is GWS. They have a bad reputation for a very, very, very good reason. Their pricing is AWFUL. You will spend a lot of money to start your army. It cost me over $200 to start a Dark Eldar army at anywhere between 500-800 points, whereas a 50 point army in Warmachine, which is the largest competitive format and is considered the "standard", cost me well less than $200. Not only will you spend a lot of money to start, but their balancing and release schedule is terrible. If you pick a less popular faction, you won't get an update for years. All Warhammer books cost an absurd amount of money. Models cost an absurd amount of money and consistently increase in price at a ridiculous rate. They release new editions way too soon, costing you a whole lot more money, and the rules set for 40k has been considered one of the worst in tabletop gaming for years now. Finally, with each new codex, you get new "FotM" armies, and your models frequently become obsolete with releases. Again, as a universe, I absolutely love Warhammer/40k. Unfortunately, GWS is an absolutely despicable company, and unless you're prepared to spend a LOT of money, I would suggest that you enjoy the universe only in the most casual of ways and don't worry about constantly picking up the new codices/editions/models/"good" armies.
Alright, now that this is out of the way, back to the game.
My general summary:
Space Marines: An entire faction of Navy SEALs combined with Paladins. Very strong all-around, with few models, but they're quite tough. Chaos Space Marines: Similar to Space Marines in a lot of ways, except that there's a lot more spikes, blood, and demons. I can't note many significant differences in their styles from my days of facing them. Imperial Guard: Think Terran from SC. Swarm with a lot of vehicles/artillery and a lot of ranged firepower. Not a lot of melee power. Sisters of Battle: Don't bother. Eldar: Elves. Higher point cost than some armies, but relatively frail. Their infantry are (supposed to be) very specialized to particular roles. Their vehicles are incredibly cool and quite powerful. Last time I knew anything about the meta, Eldar REALLY relied on vehicles and almost never put infantry on the table. Dark Eldar: Dark Elves. Easily the hardest faction to play. Very frail, a lot of hit-and-run tactics. They don't have anything in the entire faction that can really take a hit. They rely on a lot of shenanigans, speed, and a lot of Dark Lances. Orks: Swarm army. Individual models are atrocious. Somehow, these guys, who are slightly more intelligent than monkeys, randomly throw together technology that somehow works and get a lot of cool stuff. They basically steal tanks, put together ramshackle helicoptors and motorcycles, and ride inside barrels outfitted with buzzsaw arms as equivalents to the Dreadnaughts. Tyranids: Basically Zerg. Necrons: Space Undead. Strong and slow. LOTS of firepower. As of a little over a year ago, their flyers were the most dominant ones in the game. Tau: Asian aliens with a LOT of long-ranged firepower. Gundam-inspired battle suits, very weak in melee, and some of the longest-ranged guns in the game. Daemons: Almost seem like 4 small armies in one faction (each devoted to a particular God). Very random, have a lot of different abilities, and very fun. Lots of death, destruction, creepiness, spikes, fire, torturing, etc.
With a miniatures game, you need to pick a faction that you 1) enjoy the aesthetics of, and 2) enjoy the playstyle of, in that order. You will spend a LOT of time assembling and painting models, so if you don't enjoy the aesthetic, it will become a chore very quickly. You also want to make sure you enjoy what you are doing on the table with them, since an average game takes several hours, and if you don't enjoy that time, then what's the point? I really wouldn't recommend paying attention to the meta, as that shifts very drastically with GWS and their release schedule/balancing "strategy".
Yeahhh, I'm gonna be completely honest and just say that there was a lot of nostalgia in my defense of the cost. My enthusiasm came and went pretty quickly when I started looking into how much getting started was actually going to run me.
I posted again on this page mentioning that the people I play with are opting to go with Infinity. Pretty much able to start playing for half the price of just what my Necron models were going to be (Plus some improvising with lego terrain). Also, it's gaining some ground here, so we're pretty much set.
Incontrol, the moment you try other game systems, it is the moment you will get out of GW's games. I had seen that happen so many times, it is not even funny.
My zone currently is full Xwing, infinity (both with games going on a few times a week, and tournaments each month), and then, you can see some 40k players (rarely, and they have tournaments each 3-6 months). Fantasy is basically dead. I wonder why it is. Haters i guess. Hell, even mordheim is played more than fantasy.
But since i have some time to spend writing,
"Ignore the haters"
I had been playing 40k and fantasy since i am 12 year old. I stopped two years ago (6th edition). You can be pretty sure that i am passionate about GW's products.
First the game is absolutely crap if you don't have a decent sized army (and i would argue it also is with a decent sized army, but hey, i will try to be nice enough, because pretty sure people who actually play it spent more than 1 thousand dollars). You should know this, since you actually bought a prepainted full army, didn't you ? The reason is because the game has suffered from model inflation syndrom to boost sales since third edition. Many times i tried to play 250 - 500 point games with new players just to teach them the game. Compared to a demo game from infinity or xwing, where you already have shiny stuff, it is so boring and bland that it makes you want to kill yourself. Do you want to start a bland experience with a 80 euro army box + 60 euro rulebook + 40 euro codex = 180 euro just to start, with shitty and boring units on a game intended to play at 6-10 times that size, or you spend 37 euros on a infinity starter, already have some fun models, and start playing outright. Seems like a no brainer.
Second the game designers are completely out of touch. Models point cost or upgrades, doesn't follow any kind of formula or playtesting outside additive (because they don't playtest their crap, if you want examples to know why, just check most of Matt Ward's work, he has a lot of history, so it may take a little bit).
Third, the cost, well, you need a decent sized army for this game, but what is a decent sized army ? A lot of models, ranging from 1750 to 2000 points. This can perfectly cost you up to 600 euros. The barrier entry is that bad, because the game system has been increasing the scale over and over for no apparent reason, and because GW thinks their plastic is like cocaine.
Fourth The game is blatantly unbalanced. Ask anyone about Taudar, and they will share with you some stories.
Fifth Every game takes around 2-3 hours. Other game systems, around one hour, or one hour and half. Difference is that you are very likely to try out more stuff, play more games, and with different people when you get to play it. Tournament results are also less skewed because of this.
Sixth read their own CEO from their annual's report preamble:
Completely nuts. Doesn't hire on skills. Resumees ? What's that ? We had a bad year, but don't worry, we spent 4 million pounds on a website online store (lol), while we lost the entire client database. And i will call it de-risked, when what we did was fire people. Also, we are apple, and we don't make customer research because who the fuck wants to know what a few nerds want. They will buy our precious products anyways.
They had been screwing over the LGS (Local gaming stores, the ones where you go to play), since forever, but now most of their model range isn't even accessible at that LGS, one of the reasons why US LGS went on a strike.
So yeah, i am doing a favor to new players who want to get into miniature gaming. If you like wh40k, sure go for it, but try out the different game systems first, and look around your LGS (because 1man GW stores... means you can't play games there) before, to know what they are playing. 40k isn't a hobby cheap enough to be unwillingly just in your shelves.
And now i am done, gotta be on a BBQ in one hour. Have fun, and even with my negativity, if you really like 40k, try it out. But try out the different miniature games too, and speak with people at your LGS, they will run you demo games etc. Seriously, this games are mostly about the social aspect, if you can't find people to play with, they become a collectionist hobby instead.
I agree with Godwrath here. 40K/WFB have really cool universe, but as a game they suck. The best games in this universe are definitely Battlefleet Gothic (40K) and Mordheim (WFB). They don't cost so much, the rules are decent enough and the fun from playing them is immeasurably higher than regular 40K/WFB.
Now, all is cool and dandy until you do what Godwrath suggested - try out other systems (Warmahordes/Infinity/Malifaux for example). You simply can't go back to playing your Warhammer after that as you begin to see how much better the rules and playstyle could be, how much better models can be, how much more balanced it can be, how much cheaper it can be and, finally, how much more fun it can be.
If you want Warhammer, I advise sticking with BFG/Mordheim (rules available for free, ships for BFG might be a bit of an issue).
Bonus:
My son's work. #prouddad
More Bonus:
My HT, so that inControl won't be mad at me for dissing 40k...
And my latest endavours in Infinity (just to show you how cool their minis are), still WIP.
Painting is the best part of the hobby for me. Pity I don't have as much time on my hands these days...
Alternatively, you can just how rule a lot of stuff.
I'm an avid Warmahordes player, and since I only break out the Warhammer stuff casually with some friends, we just house rule a lot of stuff to mimick a lot of the Warmahordes system. Makes the game much quicker and a lot more fun.
And my latest endavours in Infinity (just to show you how cool their minis are), still WIP.
Aww dang. My GF just had her Ariadna starter pack ordered from our FLGS. Excited to start painting.
On August 17 2014 19:56 Manit0u wrote:
Painting is the best part of the hobby for me. Pity I don't have as much time on my hands these days...
I will offer another general point here (that I think has been stated here more than once), if there's some army for some game that you find yourself absolutely in love with, you can probably compromise on the gameplay and price for that game. You're going to spend an obnoxious amount of time staring at half-done models from that set, and I'd argue the most critical part of it is making sure you're excited to look at them every single time.
Painting is the best part of the hobby for me. Pity I don't have as much time on my hands these days...
I will offer another general point here (that I think has been stated here more than once), if there's some army for some game that you find yourself absolutely in love with, you can probably compromise on the gameplay and price for that game. You're going to spend an obnoxious amount of time staring at half-done models from that set, and I'd argue the most critical part of it is making sure you're excited to look at them every single time.
For me it was always helpful imagining how cool they'll be looking once they're all painted
I agree with Godwrath here. 40K/WFB have really cool universe, but as a game they suck. The best games in this universe are definitely Battlefleet Gothic (40K) and Mordheim (WFB). They don't cost so much, the rules are decent enough and the fun from playing them is immeasurably higher than regular 40K/WFB.
Now, all is cool and dandy until you do what Godwrath suggested - try out other systems (Warmahordes/Infinity/Malifaux for example). You simply can't go back to playing your Warhammer after that as you begin to see how much better the rules and playstyle could be, how much better models can be, how much more balanced it can be, how much cheaper it can be and, finally, how much more fun it can be.
.
I simply cannot 2nd this enough. And 99% of the "GW Haters" aren't haters at all, but in fact love 40k (I STILL have my Orks!), but just hate what GW has done to their game and tried something else and just enjoyed it so much more. Seriously before you really invest into the game, try a couple of them, Warma/Hordes is a fucking GREAT game.
Eh... I've played a couple intro games to Warmahordes and Infinity. I don't like the small scale games, and 40k has never felt unfun to me. So... I don't really know where the hate is coming from. Warmahordes in particular felt dull because it seemed to be all about zerging the summoner/caster/whatever the HQ type dude is called. I mean, losing your HQ in 40k sucks, but it can be a calculated risk an you can still easily win without it.
On August 20 2014 01:50 Requizen wrote: Eh... I've played a couple intro games to Warmahordes and Infinity. I don't like the small scale games, and 40k has never felt unfun to me. So... I don't really know where the hate is coming from. Warmahordes in particular felt dull because it seemed to be all about zerging the summoner/caster/whatever the HQ type dude is called. I mean, losing your HQ in 40k sucks, but it can be a calculated risk an you can still easily win without it.
You need to play scenarios in WMH then. Very few games are actually about zerging the Warcraster/Warlock.
People's hate for 40k comes the terrible rules that ruin a great setting and the horrible pricing.
What about the rules are terrible? I can't say I've ever felt that any of the rules were bad. I like the way the game flows, and aside from a couple game-y units/combos (which you find in nearly any game under the sun), nothing is so imbalanced that it feels unfun to play as or against.
I am a competitive WH40k player who has been collecting them since I was 12 (16 years now).
First of all.. ignore the haters. GW is a funny business in that they equally rope in and make sweet passionate love to their user base but they also create bitter whiney people that constantly threaten to "leave" and play other games. 40k can be life changing cool and good for you OR it can be another game.. ultimately people telling you "this one is boring" or "it's got bad rules" are the kind of people you should ignore.. go to a shop, watch a game, check out bat reps on youtube or read up on it.. this game has a RICH tradition in awesomeness and if you don't believe me read into it but don't listen to the haters.. they are everywhere.
Some questions I saw:
1. Is it expensive? YES! It certainly is out of the box and ordered online. Can you do it cheaper? YES! Craigslist, ebay, local connections, facebook groups etc.. or if you are super creative you can mod things and use models from other games (within reason).
2. Is it fun? Find out for yourself but my extremely biased opinion is that it is one of the coolest and most fun things you can do. It is also a social game by nature.. I've strengthened friendships, made new ones and obtained some of my absolute best friends in life through this game.
3. Elite armies OP? I play Nids. Generally considered a upper mid tier army in competition (I Play in the biggest tourneys outside of ETC there is!) and I can tell you that while I LOVE winning my love for the bugs is greater and even with them not being Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Space Marines I still am ranked #2 in the ITC (simply put: ranking for all the best players in the USA around the west coast). Some armies are way better than others but for the MOST part all of them CAN win even in the most competitive scenes.. just fewer options on how they do that etc.
If you have more questions fire away. I tweet about WH40k and I am apart of team0comp which is one of/the best team on the west coast
Sweet. Cool to get a response from iNcontroL. As a new player, if I choose to play Tyranids, are there any types of armies/units I should be avoiding? I wouldn't want to just copy a competitive list and start with that because there's a good chance I won't know enough about the game to play that army the way I should. I've heard in a few youtube videos I've watched that Tyranids can be pretty punishing to newer players especially because you don't know how to position yourself. I've been trying to find VLOGs etc for awhile, but it's hard to tell who is just whining (no, MY race is harder) or if that really is true, and what I can do about it.
As a competitive player, what would you say is a good place point wise to start playing at to learn the game? In a game like WH40k i have to imagine it's hard for every army to be relevant at any point value range; as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you're playing at 500 points you can't really field a lot of big bugs, etc.
On a related note, is there a good community site for WH40k? I'm finding it's hard to find a lot of information about warhammer if you don't know where to look. It would be nice to be able look for good lists for beginners and talk strategy/read articles.
Thanks for everyone who gave me feedback! I hope a few people got some good use out of this thread and not just me!
Community site: www.belloflostsouls.com is OK but for advice on lists/tactics check out www.frontlinegaming.org there is also dakkadakka which is a friendlier version of bells in a lot of ways.
As for Tyranids units to avoid you won't see a pyrovore used outside of a fluff game.. but they are bad so just don't waste the money. Genestealers are unfortunately super awesome/iconic but not very good in the game itself. I myself actually run 5 but they are wound bitches for the broodlord who is basically a gimmick to hide the Warlord and not give up that point.. this is all a long winded way of saying hold off on them for now.
key units to get are going to be 2x Hive Tyrants (if you want to be competitive put wings on them), 1-2 Venomthropes. The cool thing is after that for the most part you will see almost everything out of Tyranids. Nidzilla is still a thing with minimal troops (rippers or tervigon + termies) or you can see LOTS of gibblies (1-2 tervigons, tons of termies etc) and you are seeing formations as well (skyblight / living artillery / bio blast being the most common). Lastly, if your local meta allows forgeworld there is no cooler model for the Nids than the dimachaeron and nothing beats the Malanthrope right now in functionality.
To the guys trying to explain their disdain for the business / game of WH40k I read your comments but Godsomething (spanish poster) I have a really tough time taking your post serious after I explain I've played this game for 16 years and I play at a competitive level (traveling the country) yet you explain "once I play other games I won't ever come back." That is like telling a SC2 player once he goes and plays C&C he will never come back. I've played other games. My friends that I play with 2-3 times a week ALL play the other games. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I have SOME CLUE about the other games lol. Despite that, you are wrong! I still find WH40k vastly superior. Unfortunately (perhaps) for you.. the opinion that GW is the devil and this game is broken and bad is not limited to you. There are TONS of people with that same opinion and hilariously enough like you they find their way to threads/forums that literally have WH40K in the title JUST to bitch about how they don't like that game (like you did) and try to direct them to another game because it is SO MUCH BETTER. This is really common practice on all the forums I just mentioned and it is completely bland and boring. Yeah yeah.. you really LOVE WH40k but you just hate how GW conducts business .. OK! Cool story bro..
Sorry to be pretty blunt but it's funny because I am guessing you don't span the WH40k boards.. or at least I hope you don't. But this act is really common and super annoying for those of us that are having an amazing time with this game and play it at a higher level than you and find that while YES the game is expensive as shit (overpriced!) and a LOT of it's rules are terribad this game remains the absolute most common game across the world, has the coolest fluff, some of / most of the most gorgeous models and has a fantastic competitive scene. I fucking love this game so everytime I see someone saying "Hey I am interested! I'd like to know X, Y, Z about WH40k" and I see that same clown in there going "NO! THIS GAME SUCKS PLAY ANOTHER!" I can't help but laugh.
Dude, i had been playing competitively, travelling, and playing the best players on europe basically the whole 5th edition of this game (you know, one that didn't end in two fucking years because of how horrible it was). But let's measure dicks just because. You had been a competitive player for how long ? What are your placings ? Had been to the ETC ? I am 29 years old, and started playing at 12, so you do the math too.
What's funny is reading somebody who is actually a nobody competitively speaking at 40k trying to downtalk others. If that's the only kind of argument you have got, i guess the discussion is pretty much over, because everything you say is just "because this game is so much better".
Keep on your GW's happy bubble, it is going to burst soon enough tho.
holy shit lol. "A nobody" wtf? You have no fucking idea what I've done in WH40k and I am 28 years old and have been playing since I was 12 as well bro.. calm the fuck down.
I know the words sting. I know it sucks being told you are a clown.. but lets face facts. This guy asked about WH40k and choosing an army. YOU came in here to tell him the game sucks.
Now fuck off and take your butt hurt ego over a game you are upset with and shut the fuck up.
Being off topic in a thread AND a butt hurt nobody that wants to try and tear others down and "measure dicks" in a game where the best accomplishment you list is "playing in ETC and playing 'the best EU player'" OK BRO! LOL NICE JOB! Now go away!
also if you do reply (please don't, you are really off topic and just bitching at me) I am a bit annoyed that you basically got really mad at a single fucking line in my 2 paragraphs where I make the assumption I play at a higher level than you. I don't need to be correct there for the REST of my post to be on point. lets assume you aer 10x the player I am. Lets assume you have a rich history of winning.. read the rest of my post.. and argue that. I don't care who the fuck is better. I DO care about your horrible attitude and you going out of your way to be off topic and try and stir shit.
I don't think it really matters how long you've been playing or what your tournament placings are. If the OP came in to ask how to buy a WH40k army, I don't think "don't because you're wrong play this instead" is a good answer.
Imagine the kind of shitstorm that you'd get if you went to LiquidDota and responded to all threads with "Just play LoL or Smite instead".
On August 20 2014 03:07 UmberBane wrote: Ah, good to know that the eternal "my game is better than yours" isn't exclusive to eSports titles.
Gaming =/= gaming man. This always happens >_< In fact in my experience I have seen MORE whining (not that that is quantifiable) in WH40k/table top games
I tried to be careful to say that WH40k is a great game not that it is necessarily better than the rest. I haven't read my previous posts but I think I was careful to say that TO ME it is better but that you should play all games and not let people tell you they suck etc.
If I didn't I'd amend my comments to that. Warmachine, Dropzone and a few others in particular are very good. For me, WH40k is the best and I'm always excited to talk about it That is why I came here.. saw the thread title and wanted to discuss WH40k!
On August 20 2014 03:12 Requizen wrote: I don't think it really matters how long you've been playing or what your tournament placings are. If the OP came in to ask how to buy a WH40k army, I don't think "don't because you're wrong play this instead" is a good answer.
Imagine the kind of shitstorm that you'd get if you went to LiquidDota and responded to all threads with "Just play LoL or Smite instead".
First and foremost the 'best' online community for warhammer related stuff: The warhammer forum. It's been a while since I was active there but they always seemed the most sensible/knowledgeable about rule issues ( ex. they organize the EuropeanTeamChampion with their own ruleset).
Buying from GW is expensive, second-hand models will give you a sizable army for a cheaper price. This does mean investing some time in browsing fora marketplaces, and probably having to buy a whole army at once.
If you know people that play already you can ask them to set up a small balanced match up. (remind them to make sure they pick army lists that work against each-other, no one enjoys a stompfest.
Ps. Warhammer is sometimes really really broken, but complaining about the broken stuff & your bad luck is half the fun for me :D
I've always liked the hobby and painting aspect behind the game, as well as the awesome lore. I've been considering picking up the game again and learning how to airbrush. I've only ever played a couple games so I'm choosing on painting/lore. I had a Black Templar army back in the day, which was pretty bland to paint. My top picks right now are Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, and Mech Imperial Guard.
IG - I've seen some absolutely awesome dirty/gritty looking IG armies and am a big fan of the DKoK models. Draw back for me would be that this would be an expensive army to field and a lot of models to paint.
Chaos - I used to have a link to a photobucket account of a guy who made 80% of his nurgle minis out of green stuff, I was absolutely obsessed with how cool they were. Unfortunately I lost it. But that was a huge inspiration. I wouldn't mind starting a vanilla army either, the models just look so cool. CSM would be a cheaper army to field.
Eldar - I really like all of the models for Eldar and the variety. This would be a great army to test out an airbrush on IMO. The new Dark Eldar models are also just fantastic and I like their lore.
I can't contribute a whole lot to the discussion here, but if you're looking for a good community site Warseer.org is great. I mostly visit for the painting sections - there are some great armies posted.
Keep on your GW's happy bubble, it is going to burst soon enough tho.
Wow. So I'm pretty sure outright bashing the competition in a topic that's gonna draw fans of said competition isn't the BEST way to gain support. You're not really doing anything for your case and you seem the be the only reason this thread is turning hostile.
That said, to iNcontroL, I came into this thread initially looking to restart 40k after a really long hiatus (because it does a LOT of things right, even if GW seems not to anymore), but after seeing pricing models and reading several opinions on the current state of the rules, I had doubts about starting. That's the first time I really looked outside of GW for a miniatures game and I've found one that I really like the look of in Infinity (though I admit, I will miss the large-scale battles of WH).
So when it comes to "don't talk about other games in a 40k thread," especially when Arisen was voicing concerns with pricing of certain armies (Nids are one of the more expensive armies, correct?), I think it's reasonable to suggest the other players in the market. Just not with Godwrath's... enthusiasm...
Directly on-topic: Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons. Boom. Done.
Keep on your GW's happy bubble, it is going to burst soon enough tho.
Wow. So I'm pretty sure outright bashing the competition in a topic that's gonna draw fans of said competition isn't the BEST way to gain support. You're not really doing anything for your case and you seem the be the only reason this thread is turning hostile.
That said, to iNcontroL, I came into this thread initially looking to restart 40k after a really long hiatus (because it does a LOT of things right, even if GW seems not to anymore), but after seeing pricing models and reading several opinions on the current state of the rules, I had doubts about starting. That's the first time I really looked outside of GW for a miniatures game and I've found one that I really like the look of in Infinity (though I admit, I will miss the large-scale battles of WH).
So when it comes to "don't talk about other games in a 40k thread," especially when Arisen was voicing concerns with pricing of certain armies (Nids are one of the more expensive armies, correct?), I think it's reasonable to suggest the other players in the market. Just not with Godwrath's... enthusiasm...
Directly on-topic: Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons. Boom. Done.
It's not about not talking about other games. Making comparisons is one thing, going into a topic and basically yelling at people to stop talking about the thing you don't like and start talking about the thing you do like is just kinda.... yeah.
I am never going to tell you WH40k / GW is perfect.. far from it. But literally going into a thread like this to direct people AWAY from the game and tell them it is bad is not how a forum should operate. If the thread title was "Pros and Cons of WH40k" or "What games like 40k should I play?" etc.. then SURE.
As you yourself said I agree: making comparisons and finding the 40k ones lacking is completely fine and makes for a good conversation. telling others what they cannot enjoy is.. less so, by a lot.
Back when i was in high school i began a Tyranid army. Loved the idea of a swarming alien army with also some huge monsters almost invincible in 1v1 !
I really like this game but lack of time/money/courage made me stopped.
But i'm still into the w40k universe as i'm reading the horus heresy novels which are truly awesome (some are in my top 20 alongside lotr, fondation, and wheel of time !)
More on the topic i think it is wise to take into account some things before choosing an army :
- races that are attractive to you plot-wise - races that may fit to your intended playstyle (i personnaly feel more like an orc than a tau when it comes to take a fight) - size of your first army : money to invest / time for painting / more money to re-buy what you first paint so bad, etc ... - where and with whom do you intend to play ? if most of your friends have SPM or ImpGu armies, it might be a great idea to take SPMC or Orcs as it would lead to epic-for-mankind-battles.
Thanks for all the help! I appreciate everyone who's given some input (people telling me not to play WH40k, while I appreciate that you are a fan of other games, this isn't the place!).
From a cost effectiveness perspective, Tyranid seems to be one of the more costly armies to start. Would you say the Tyranid swarm box from GW is a good place to start, then adding on from there? You can snag the box for about 130+shipping on ebay. THe box gives you 40 hormagaunts, 40 termagants, 10 harpies, 4 ripper swarms, and a carnifex. Cost wise, you can't really beat this for the amount of figures you get for the cost (around the cheapest I'm finding New on Sprue Termagants is 20-25 for 12, so that's close to 100 bucks worth of just termagants). iNcontroL's recommended 2 flyrants, 2 venomthropes would go for around 150 bucks at ebay prices, so maybe it's just better to start with that and add on, though.
depends on what you want. Those gibblies can be fun and a main part of your army or you can almost never use them.. typically you want a lot of one type or another though
If you own a semi-decent 3D printer schematics do exist for the models. Legality wise not sure what the situation is on that, but the cost is like a 100th of what you would pay to GW. Quality is also variable given your printer's ability.
On August 20 2014 09:47 Dubzex wrote: 3d printer made models look like shit compared to the real ones... the beauty is in the details
Low quality reproductions are definitely inferior at the moment, there are however, very close representations already possible, and complete 1:1 fabrications are going to be the norm in 1-2 years.
It kind of makes an interesting situation for all miniature manufacturers. They are going to need major changes in how they market products. 3d scanning 3d printers are extremely close to realization.
On August 20 2014 09:47 Dubzex wrote: 3d printer made models look like shit compared to the real ones... the beauty is in the details
Low quality reproductions are definitely inferior at the moment, there are however, very close representations already possible, and complete 1:1 fabrications are going to be the norm in 1-2 years.
It kind of makes an interesting situation for all miniature manufacturers. They are going to need major changes in how they market products. 3d scanning 3d printers are extremely close to realization.
Yeah, well. You still need a good meterial to print it with. Can 3D printers really do high quality plastics or metal? After all, your minis will be used a lot. Durability is important, just as stability is (model balance and how easy it is to turn over).
On August 20 2014 04:58 Arisen wrote: Thanks for all the help! I appreciate everyone who's given some input (people telling me not to play WH40k, while I appreciate that you are a fan of other games, this isn't the place!).
From a cost effectiveness perspective, Tyranid seems to be one of the more costly armies to start. Would you say the Tyranid swarm box from GW is a good place to start, then adding on from there? You can snag the box for about 130+shipping on ebay. THe box gives you 40 hormagaunts, 40 termagants, 10 harpies, 4 ripper swarms, and a carnifex. Cost wise, you can't really beat this for the amount of figures you get for the cost (around the cheapest I'm finding New on Sprue Termagants is 20-25 for 12, so that's close to 100 bucks worth of just termagants). iNcontroL's recommended 2 flyrants, 2 venomthropes would go for around 150 bucks at ebay prices, so maybe it's just better to start with that and add on, though.
My advice here would be to not dive so deep right off the bat. If you're just learning the ropes it would be better if you first made a 1k list and a 1.5k list that would be an extension of the 1k one (easy transition). Then, you should post those lists and ask more experienced people for their opinion on them and keep adjusting until you're happy with it and it's not garbage gameplay-wise. Then, you should make your way towards building your 1k list, playing some games with it and slowly building up to 1.5k in the meantime.
Smaller lists will be easier to grasp in the beginning and easier to collect so if you're jumping into 40K with your friends there's higher chance that more people will be able to start playing sooner without spending too much time collecting and assembling their models.
On August 20 2014 04:58 Arisen wrote: Thanks for all the help! I appreciate everyone who's given some input (people telling me not to play WH40k, while I appreciate that you are a fan of other games, this isn't the place!).
From a cost effectiveness perspective, Tyranid seems to be one of the more costly armies to start. Would you say the Tyranid swarm box from GW is a good place to start, then adding on from there? You can snag the box for about 130+shipping on ebay. THe box gives you 40 hormagaunts, 40 termagants, 10 harpies, 4 ripper swarms, and a carnifex. Cost wise, you can't really beat this for the amount of figures you get for the cost (around the cheapest I'm finding New on Sprue Termagants is 20-25 for 12, so that's close to 100 bucks worth of just termagants). iNcontroL's recommended 2 flyrants, 2 venomthropes would go for around 150 bucks at ebay prices, so maybe it's just better to start with that and add on, though.
Buy the codex. Read the rules. Choose your models based on what you think is effective or looks cool. Taking advice blindly on what to buy has never worked out for anybody. It is your personal army and you will feel a lot better if you made the decisions yourself. Also, you seem to be bizarrely working in a vacuum. Finding people to play with is the most important aspect of enjoying yourself if you aren't just seeking to paint and assemble the models. See if you like their gaming group or whatever, because you will have to adapt to their style of play. Also be aware that a 1500 pts army will cost about £200-£300.
Also be aware that pts cost in 40k is not a measure of effectiveness of a unit. Many units are grossly underpriced or overpriced in points, not to mention the intereaction and synergy of an army. Buying boxes based on how much pts you get per cash is a sure fire way to make a really crappy army. Find out what your local groups play, or what you want to play. Then make an army list. Then buy the models.
I am a competitive WH40k player who has been collecting them since I was 12 (16 years now).
First of all.. ignore the haters. GW is a funny business in that they equally rope in and make sweet passionate love to their user base but they also create bitter whiney people that constantly threaten to "leave" and play other games. 40k can be life changing cool and good for you OR it can be another game.. ultimately people telling you "this one is boring" or "it's got bad rules" are the kind of people you should ignore.. go to a shop, watch a game, check out bat reps on youtube or read up on it.. this game has a RICH tradition in awesomeness and if you don't believe me read into it but don't listen to the haters.. they are everywhere.
Some questions I saw:
1. Is it expensive? YES! It certainly is out of the box and ordered online. Can you do it cheaper? YES! Craigslist, ebay, local connections, facebook groups etc.. or if you are super creative you can mod things and use models from other games (within reason).
2. Is it fun? Find out for yourself but my extremely biased opinion is that it is one of the coolest and most fun things you can do. It is also a social game by nature.. I've strengthened friendships, made new ones and obtained some of my absolute best friends in life through this game.
3. Elite armies OP? I play Nids. Generally considered a upper mid tier army in competition (I Play in the biggest tourneys outside of ETC there is!) and I can tell you that while I LOVE winning my love for the bugs is greater and even with them not being Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Space Marines I still am ranked #2 in the ITC (simply put: ranking for all the best players in the USA around the west coast). Some armies are way better than others but for the MOST part all of them CAN win even in the most competitive scenes.. just fewer options on how they do that etc.
If you have more questions fire away. I tweet about WH40k and I am apart of team0comp which is one of/the best team on the west coast
LOL
I read your blog about starting WH40K a while ago, and simply lost all track of your adventures since then. I assumed you became a relatively casual mid-tier player, but I should have known better. I should have known you'd wreck face at this game; that fire that made you a Starcraft pro never really dies, does it?
So me and my room mate and a few friends who were looking to get into the game are going to play some proxy battles this weekend to see how we like the game/the army we've chosen (or are planning to choose, as in my circumstance). We have, among the group of us, the rulebook (7th edition) and the codices of IG, SM, Tyranid, Eldar, Ork, and Necron. Obviously things won't be perfect since we won't have the models on the table, but it should be at least a passable experience. I'm looking to play at least 3 games, each representing a different style (or army) I'd like to try out;
All armies are going to be budgeted at 1k points this weekend, as we're all new and none of us will have giant armies to start.
1) A Tyranid Army that would be a decent representation of a decent Tyranid list. I want to start out with iNc's recommendation of A pair of flyrants and venomthropes, then build on from there, so as to experiment with a list that I might eventually get into if I try to play a bit more competitively among the local scene.
490 points without upgrades, so half the force taken care of right there!
2) What my starter Tyranid army might look like. I want to start off with the base that you get in the starter Tyranid box and add on from there. The base models would be 40 gaunts, 40 termagants, 10 Gargoyles, 4 ripper swarms, and a Carnifex. I would also need at least 1 HQ selection, so probably add in a flyrant. From there, the idea is to create an army that would be close to where I could start off with my 1000 point list. This is going to be a list that I'm throwing together to start the game, so I'm going to try to not fill it with stuff like 2 or 3 extra carnifex's, hive crones, etc that would be really expensive.
3) A space Marine List. If I'm not going to play Tyranid, I'd probably play these guys. Awesome lore, nice looking sculpts, cheaper to get into, some sick cool looking HQ choices, and all around cool guys who doesn't afraid of anything. I'd want to start off small, once again, as to keep it in a budget; I'm not looking to pile in landraiders or something super pricey into my list, as cool as they are. I'm thinking for vehicles (seem to be the most expensive) I'd like to keep it pretty simple. Maybe a few drop pods/rhinos and possibly a dreadnought, then filling it out with tactical marine squads, maybe some terminators, and an HQ choice (personally, I really like Lysander, Vulkan, and Mephiston Lore wise. Also Draigo, because ... come on; ).
I'm a bit more comfortable making a list for these guys (though I'm sure it's still awful). here's what I have so far;
-2 Tactical Squads (140+ points x 2); fairly sure I want the 10 marines, though I don't know if I should be upgrading to the Vet Sargent, and what to use my upgrades for -HQ Selection (>231 ) Lysander seems to be the most expensive out of the HQ's I like, but also the most powerful; combat wise, at least -Assault Terminators w/3 Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields (215). I read in a few separate places that these guys are awesome with 3 Hammers, 2 Claws. As 2 of my best friends are going to be playing Necron and IG, these seem like they would be fun/hilarious.
That's around 800 Points (without upgrades on the marines) or less assuming you give a dedicated transport to each tac squad (35 points a piece for both the Rhino and Drop pod) with the most expensive HQ slot, so depending on which I go with, could be a bit less.
So, I'm hoping some people could help me with filling out my lists? I'm not at all knowledgeable about what upgrades I should be purchasing, and barely know which units to field. Thanks for anyone who can help out!
Scouts - 5x SR: 75 pts (for some infantry disruption) Tactical squad - PF, C-flamer, MG, MM + Rhino, EA: 260 pts (racing across the map to cap distant points) Tactical squad - PF, C-flamer, MG, PC: 215 pts (combat squadding, special weapon and sarge with both HQ footslogging to cap closer points, PC and vanilla marines staying behind)
It's not very optimal, since Librarian was "the" HQ choice to take back then, but we wanted some more fluff and fun in our games instead of just doing same ol', same ol' cookie-cutter stuff (still, power fists and combi-flamers on sergeants and meltas on specials were pretty much standard back then).
And I don't know about newer editions, but I do remember that Termies blow without some form of delivery method (read: Landraider).
On August 22 2014 07:29 Arisen wrote: All armies are going to be budgeted at 1k points this weekend, as we're all new and none of us will have giant armies to start.
1) A Tyranid Army that would be a decent representation of a decent Tyranid list. I want to start out with iNc's recommendation of A pair of flyrants and venomthropes, then build on from there, so as to experiment with a list that I might eventually get into if I try to play a bit more competitively among the local scene.
490 points without upgrades, so half the force taken care of right there!
2) What my starter Tyranid army might look like. I want to start off with the base that you get in the starter Tyranid box and add on from there. The base models would be 40 gaunts, 40 termagants, 10 Gargoyles, 4 ripper swarms, and a Carnifex. I would also need at least 1 HQ selection, so probably add in a flyrant. From there, the idea is to create an army that would be close to where I could start off with my 1000 point list. This is going to be a list that I'm throwing together to start the game, so I'm going to try to not fill it with stuff like 2 or 3 extra carnifex's, hive crones, etc that would be really expensive.
Assuming you got the points added up right, you got 18pts spare. You can afford to take an upgrade. Maybe even drop a termagent or two for upgrades. You got 2 flyrants as your sole synapse for 80 models. They wouldn't be able to make full use of their wings as you want your 4 squads to be within 12" of those 2 flyrants at the start of their turn. That is going to curtail their use. I guess you want the flyrant to move with the gargoyles, but then do you really want to have 4 instinctive units depending on 1 synapse that has wings? Then you got the venomthropes as well. Not sure why you want venomthropes but hey it's your list. The squads will want to be within 6" of them even though most of them will move faster than the venomthropes. It's looking like your army will be deployed awfully tight together. Not sure why you got squads of 30 and 10 but I guess the 10 are in front or something but then what re the 30 guants doing? Taking a single objective whilst everything else is moving forward at venomthrope speed? Then what's the need of the 10 gaunts? Might as well make it 20 and 20 evenly. All in all, the army doesn't gel well together.
On August 22 2014 07:29 Arisen wrote: 3) A space Marine List. If I'm not going to play Tyranid, I'd probably play these guys. Awesome lore, nice looking sculpts, cheaper to get into, some sick cool looking HQ choices, and all around cool guys who doesn't afraid of anything. I'd want to start off small, once again, as to keep it in a budget; I'm not looking to pile in landraiders or something super pricey into my list, as cool as they are. I'm thinking for vehicles (seem to be the most expensive) I'd like to keep it pretty simple. Maybe a few drop pods/rhinos and possibly a dreadnought, then filling it out with tactical marine squads, maybe some terminators, and an HQ choice (personally, I really like Lysander, Vulkan, and Mephiston Lore wise. Also Draigo, because ... come on; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJUi4cB4oc ).
I'm a bit more comfortable making a list for these guys (though I'm sure it's still awful). here's what I have so far;
-2 Tactical Squads (140+ points x 2); fairly sure I want the 10 marines, though I don't know if I should be upgrading to the Vet Sargent, and what to use my upgrades for -HQ Selection (>231 ) Lysander seems to be the most expensive out of the HQ's I like, but also the most powerful; combat wise, at least -Assault Terminators w/3 Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields (215). I read in a few separate places that these guys are awesome with 3 Hammers, 2 Claws. As 2 of my best friends are going to be playing Necron and IG, these seem like they would be fun/hilarious.
That's around 800 Points (without upgrades on the marines) or less assuming you give a dedicated transport to each tac squad (35 points a piece for both the Rhino and Drop pod) with the most expensive HQ slot, so depending on which I go with, could be a bit less.
Unless you have opponents who aren't trying to win, or victory conditions that require them to run into your Lysander+thunder hammer terminators, your Lysander and terminators should never see combat in a 800pts game. Basically every reasonably experienced player should know how insanely good thunder hammer terminators are and would not enter combat with them unless they had to, or to tie them up with a tarpit unit. Anyways, I don't really want TL to become a sub 40k forum; it's really better to post such things to dedicated 40k forums.
So after doing some playing, I have came up with a decent starter list (I think at least) for the 750 point armies that people in our local gaming community are going to start their collections at.
Troops Termagant Brood - 20 Extra Models - 120 Points
Tervigon - 195 Points
Elites Venomthrope - 45 Points
Heavy Support Carnifex - Twin Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin Linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms - 150 Points
The idea behind this was to get a lot of shooting into my list, and adding some utility/survivability through the venomthrope. Hopefully opponents don't field too many vehicles, as I don't think this list is great at dealing with them, but have a few answers.
Now, I still have some problems with this list and am not 100% satisfied. I really have some big problems with synapse. I only have 2 synapse creatures, and it seems quite hard to always position the flyrant in such a way that I could actually provide synapse cover when I need it.
In addition to problems with synapse, I find that objective control is also a bit of a problem. Out of 4 games I've played, my tervigon has menopaused first turn, leaving me with very few options to hold objectives.
Tanks have been a problem for me as well. I don't find I have a lot that can deal with tanks, which is why I purchased the grubs for the tyrant, but getting into range to use the grubs can certainly be scary.
Any idea of tweaks I could use to make my army more effective? I assume things get better in higher point games, but this is where my local community is so far in their collections, so it's where I'm going to have to start too.
Well, what would I give up? I can't give up the troops or the HQ; I could give up the fex, but that's a lot of firing potential (and one of my only ways to deal with a vehicle if the tyrant gets shot down). I probably don't want to give up a tervigon, as it's +2 Cover is too good to pass up. I guess the tervigon could go, but then I have to fit the zoan and another troop; probably more termagants given how the rest of the army is set up, and I'd still have limited scoring possiblities with only 2 squads of really squishy troops. Also, I'd be giving up 1 synapse for another synapse, but one that's far more fragile (maybe I just perils and kill myself, not to mention getting shot).
When is the new ruleset coming out? I saw something about it on twitter and I have a bunch of Tau I bought oh.. 5 years ago now? That I never finished painting because life got busy and I lost time then I moved out etc.
I need to buy a whole new batch of paint and undercoat again but I would like to get back into it. I had a couple of tau fire squads, and some of the mechs (broadsides iirc?) and I think one (maybe 2) transports. I took advantage of a closing local game shop so I got mad discounts at the time.
As for paints, are there good cheap alternatives to the actual GW ones? Because they are a bit pricey and once I get out of my studio and into a slightly larger space I'll have room to paint again later in the summer. But all my pots are dead now, I'm sure of it haha
Rumor has it that the new edition is scheduled for june/july.
Tau seems to be doing fine in the current edition and is considered to be one of the strongest tournament armies there is.
In terms of colors I can strongly recommend Vallejo colors (Game Color and Model Color). Their quality is not only on par with GW colors, but they are also cheaper, last longer, come in handy bottles and have more colors available than GW. I recently picked up painting again after an almost 6 year hiatus and to my surprise most of my Vallejo colors were still working just fine. I would also recommend making a wet palette when you get back into painting. It might be something to get used to at first if you have been using paint straight out of the GW pots before, but the quality of your paintjobs is going to increase significantly.
GW have denied 40k end times. It is just a new rule set which is coming out. All old Codexes and the such like won't viable any more once new edition comes out.
On April 26 2017 01:40 NKB wrote: GW have denied 40k end times. It is just a new rule set which is coming out. All old Codexes and the such like won't viable any more once new edition comes out.
This sounds like a terrible idea. What could possibly be the justification other than a blatant cash grab? That takes business scumminess to a new level - they're like 1 or 2 levels below telecoms now.
And they screwed over fantasy right? Just got rid of Bretonnians?
On April 26 2017 01:40 NKB wrote: GW have denied 40k end times. It is just a new rule set which is coming out. All old Codexes and the such like won't viable any more once new edition comes out.
This sounds like a terrible idea. What could possibly be the justification other than a blatant cash grab? That takes business scumminess to a new level - they're like 1 or 2 levels below telecoms now.
And they screwed over fantasy right? Just got rid of Bretonnians?
I've found a FAQ they released. (If I am not allowed to post links please say and I will delete)
From reading that seems like all the base rules and the such like will be free downloads like the new fantasy models and will literally be the books if you like hard copies or want modelling and/or lore information.
Regarding fantasy all I know is they blew the world up and rebuilt it with guys that are basically space marines. Fantasy wasn't really my thing so I can't really comment on whether it was a good idea or not.
Links are fine, I have no problem with it. You arent linking to pirated material so meh
Also thanks for tip on vallejo, alternatively can you revive the paint? If its thick but not hardened, can I add paint thinner of some kind or water or something?
I've also got a bunch of Kroot since they came in the starter box way back when i first built my list years ago.
Do ppl still use kroot or would I be better off not spending time painting them (or even buying paints since they have diff colour schemes to tau)
Kroot are often used because they are the cheapest way to fill your troop slots.
So I dont have obsolete models awesome! I remember at one point they were going to pull them from the tau codex or something, so good to know.
I don't know if they're any good anymore but a while ago the competitive mech tau lists would run 2 units of 10 because they were cheap at 70 points and could infiltrate into woods to get a 4+ cover save and act as close-combat speed bumps while your hammerheads and XV8s melted everything.
On April 26 2017 00:25 ZeromuS wrote: As for paints, are there good cheap alternatives to the actual GW ones? Because they are a bit pricey and once I get out of my studio and into a slightly larger space I'll have room to paint again later in the summer. But all my pots are dead now, I'm sure of it haha
If water isn't enough to revive the paint, a few drops of Vallejo Airbrush Thinner will do the trick. (Don't use too much though or you'll end up with a wash )
edit: To stay on topic, my army choice: Almost exclusively Inquisition, because nothing lights a room like burning heretics! xD
Well, if you want to get into wargaming I would seriously advise against going with GW. They've already killed Fantasy with Age of Shitmar, they don't give a damn about their customers, they don't care even a little bit about balance (money > balance) and it's all totally unpredictable. Their release schedule is shit (some armies get new codices every year while others have to wait years to get an update), there is plenty of min-maxing going on and it's generally unhealthy.
If you have to go with GW, I'd go with Speehs Mahreens since they're the GW poster boys and are guaranteed to have fairly regular releases.
I've said my farewells to GW and never looked back since. Now I'm playing games that have much better rules and much better models.
Here are some alternatives:
WarmaHordes - steampunk/fantasy with ruleset designed with tournaments in minds. It's fairly well balanced and quite entertaining. Models are OK. There's plenty of WMH players switching over to Infinity though as some of the old-timers are a bit fed up with it. https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux/
Malifaux - steampunk horror. Pretty nifty skirmish game with decent rules and some of the most gorgeous models you've ever seen. https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux/
Infinity - sci-fi awesomeness. I love absolutely everything about this game. The rules are great, balance is good and the models... Damn, the models...
It has a bit of anime vibe, but I like it (Ghost in the Shell was a pretty big inspiration for it). The rules are completely free too. http://infinitythegame.com/
On April 26 2017 01:16 BLinD-RawR wrote: I heard some random rumor for 40k end times, real or no?
unrelated to 40k but why have I seen so many people rage on sigmar(9th edition)?
Rulebook is 4 pages long (yes, that's four). Do I need to go into further details?
I don't play but from what I've heard, GW has really turned a corner after the departure of whatever their last head was... Kirby something or other.
Actually communicating with customers now, reviving specialist games, previewing rules... And Age of Sigmar is even considered to be not quite a disaster anymore with the general's handbook and what not actually providing you know, rules.
Again, I don't play but they seem less shit than in previous years.
Infinity is really cool though, only played a tiny bit but was really fun and it's nice not to need to paint 150 models but like 15 instead. Sadly no time for any of this ; [
The start of AoS was a complete disaster. Supposedly it is now a lot better but I havnt played it (They released a "Generals handbook" which added point costs). I'll wait and see how the new 40k edition turns out.
And yes Infinity is a lot of fun, sadly not enough players at my local club to have diverse games.
Have you ever considered playing one of their other games which require fewer miniatures? Games like Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim or my personal favorite Blood Bowl? The main box basically contains all you need in it and you can also quite easily order cheaper but usable models from China and whatnot.
Also:
Why should I trust you? Come on! This is New Games Workshop™
AoS from a competitive point is still trash. The lists are completely unfun to play with or against and the amount of thought put into playing is minimal. Good game for beer/pretzels tho. I am thankful for AoS so i don't feel compelled to come back due to nostalgia/lore.
I echo Manitou's sentiment for the most part. I am currently playing malifaux the most and it's a top notch game, specially if you have a good community around. I was very skeptic at first, but the game has a lot of depth and being a mix of "card/skirmish game" makes it surprisingly fun.
On April 26 2017 20:27 Heartland wrote: Have you ever considered playing one of their other games which require fewer miniatures? Games like Battlefleet Gothic, Mordheim or my personal favorite Blood Bowl? The main box basically contains all you need in it and you can also quite easily order cheaper but usable models from China and whatnot.
Why should I trust you? Come on! This is New Games Workshop™
X.x
I do play all of those games, but they have some problems...
BFG - it's pretty much dead. Ultra hard to get minis, even harder to find people to play with (I have 3 fleets and we play it from time to time with friends). Especially now that stuff like Star Wars: X-Wing came along. Also, there's a computer version now.
Mordheim - ahh, the old favorite of mine. I'm still playing it occasionally with friends (currently in the middle of painting a new warband) but the rules are pretty shit and we're all moving to Malifaux, which is the same but better in basically every regard.
BB - sure, but I can simply play the computer game instead. Much easier, faster and doesn't take up my precious space on the shelves. Time at the club is better spent playing Infinity or Malifaux.
They screwed up the new Bloodbowl so much. Rules are okay but no new models except the 8 or 9 teams they have right now. Not even the stats are in the core rulebook, nor the rules for lague play.
What I don't get with GW is that in this day and age they release so many duplicate miniatures or minis that look pretty much the same. It's damn cheap of them. Every single miniature in Infinity or Malifaux is unique, which makes them that much more special and cool. Something I've always missed in GW products and a reason why I did so many conversions.
And speaking of cool minis, I've found a local producer that makes some really cool stuff, which made me start my new Mordheim warband. WIP pics:
Well if you want unique and awesome 40k minis, there are some real gems out there: https://wargameexclusive.com (non-official, I use them mainly in our Dark Heresy group and for display ofc )
I love the cars, the detail on those minis is amazing and they're actually affordable compared to similar GW ones. This guy will be the final encounter for our current Dark Heresy campaign:
I'm pretty excited for 8th Edition. Much of what they have put out thus far have shown they've actually learned what the community wants after 7th Edition and AoS. Things that broke 7th Edition, like Deathstars and lots of Super Formations are all going to be dead and gone come 8th. And they have claimed that 8th has been getting play-tested for a while, but I'm not sure I actually trust GW's sense of balance.
They hit it out of the park with Shadow War Armageddon recently, so maybe there is reason to be hopeful.
It seems like GW has definitely learned from the past and actually engage with the community about the products, they put out. Haven't had a chance to watch the 8th Edition live Q&A vids yet, but what I've read/heard was really positive. I'm still sceptical, wether it's really gonna be the "best edition of 40k ever". Even though according to my magic 8-Ball all "Signs point to yes".
The only thing I'm concerned at so far with 8th Edition is how they will be handling Explosives, but everything else looks good. Chaos and Guard got a spotlight recently, saying how their factions will work, and both look promising.
As long as the Tau aren't somehow completely destroyed and I can make use of the stuff I bought a few years ago and never finished painting, I'll be happy.
don't have the money to reinvest in a new army but I got a bunch of stuff on a store closing sale so I want to be able to make use of it
I'm just hoping Riptides get beaten with a nerf stick. Riptide Wings were obnoxious to play against, and virtually all Tau armies were made up of Riptides and Ghostkeels in 7th. They gotta give Kroot and Vespid some love!
Watched some vids last night, I really love the movement changes! We'll have a lot more options in that phase, which is nice and a pretty big deal imho. Not sure about the shooting/close combat changes, hard to say without playtesting it myself....dang it now i wanna play, but have to wait another month...seriously?!
I collected 40k for 20 years, but what drove out me and many of my friends to other model games was the never ending codex creep and rules creep. I think at one point they were churning out a "supplement" every month and in the end no one could remember what that battalion did what and oh god, I thought 40k was supposed to be a simple ruleset, how did shootng become this complicated and why in the age of the internet, can unclear rules not be FAQ immediately? Hopefully now that GW has discovered that youtube exists, they can also communicate with their customers.
On May 11 2017 23:11 Sentenal wrote: I'm just hoping Riptides get beaten with a nerf stick. Riptide Wings were obnoxious to play against, and virtually all Tau armies were made up of Riptides and Ghostkeels in 7th. They gotta give Kroot and Vespid some love!
Thankfully I only have 4 crisis suits I got for the price of 2, the starter box with kroot and an extra squad of firewarriors with 2 transports
On May 12 2017 00:23 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I collected 40k for 20 years, but what drove out me and many of my friends to other model games was the never ending codex creep and rules creep. I think at one point they were churning out a "supplement" every month and in the end no one could remember what that battalion did what and oh god, I thought 40k was supposed to be a simple ruleset, how did shootng become this complicated and why in the age of the internet, can unclear rules not be FAQ immediately? Hopefully now that GW has discovered that youtube exists, they can also communicate with their customers.
Codex creep got insane at the end of the current edition. I need like 5 different books for my army, often times! 8th Edition is basically completely throwing all that out, and starting everything else from scratch. Everything getting rebalanced at once, and then revising them each year with community feedback is the current promise
Everything getting rebalanced at once, and then revising them each year with community feedback is the current promise.
I think hardcore codex collectors will be pissed, but for the sake of a better game experience, even these guys will come around eventually. The idea of a (universal) living ruleset sounds neat, we'll see how it pans out. Considering the amount of community feedback and the extensive playtesing, they've mentioned...this might be "the best edition ever". I'm not convinced yet, but to some extent...hopeful.
They should do it just like every other reasonable company out there: Release the rules online for free (easy to update, lower point of entry for new people) and do the fluff in the books (for those interested in it). Everyone is happy.
Everything getting rebalanced at once, and then revising them each year with community feedback is the current promise.
I think hardcore codex collectors will be pissed, but for the sake of a better game experience, even these guys will come around eventually. The idea of a (universal) living ruleset sounds neat, we'll see how it pans out. Considering the amount of community feedback and the extensive playtesing, they've mentioned...this might be "the best edition ever". I'm not convinced yet, but to some extent...hopeful.
There are some, but I think for the most part, people expect new edition means new books. Thus far its confirmed that Core Rules will be released free online, and army rules will be available in "low cost books". Its also speculated that unit stats and profiles will all be released online for free, since thats what they do for Age of Sigmar (although this isn't confirmed yet for 40k).
I played around the times of v4-early v5, then move out cause of irl things.
Last month, I wanted to check again, the rules, codice, ...
And it was simply impossible. Like for real, impossible. Got the rules book, the SM Codex and I was like, ye, lets make an army list and play ! Yeah but................. NO.
You need at least that supplement, and that one, and that one. Oh, yeah, and get the FAQ latest version for each one of them, ...
I just gave up, considering that v8 was coming shortly after. All that to explain that I dunno if rules are gonna be better or whatever, but the fact that they are going to make them free and all is really great. For old timers like me, it was near impossible to go in after a long break with that new version. From a business POV, that was a killer. It's good for them to remove that i think.
Everything getting rebalanced at once, and then revising them each year with community feedback is the current promise.
I think hardcore codex collectors will be pissed, but for the sake of a better game experience, even these guys will come around eventually. The idea of a (universal) living ruleset sounds neat, we'll see how it pans out. Considering the amount of community feedback and the extensive playtesing, they've mentioned...this might be "the best edition ever". I'm not convinced yet, but to some extent...hopeful.
There are some, but I think for the most part, people expect new edition means new books. Thus far its confirmed that Core Rules will be released free online, and army rules will be available in "low cost books". Its also speculated that unit stats and profiles will all be released online for free, since thats what they do for Age of Sigmar (although this isn't confirmed yet for 40k).
Basically new editions spawning new books is why new editions exist, not because the previous one is bad but because that is how gaming companies make money. They make your previous investments outdated and thus you have to get new ones because we are all suckers.
People don't collect codexes because they want to collect codexes. They collect codexes because they need to know all the rules. The problem was that in 7th Ed, you need about 5 books for each faction, and that's a problem when you own 5 1500+ pts armies and your local gaming group has all the armies between them. It soon reached the breaking point where no one person could memorise all the rules.
In the end we all branched out to different games which had different business models. The ones pissed off at Age of Sigmar crap went to Kings of War with their free rules and army lists (that it was written by Alessio Cavatore helps). A lot of 40k guys went off to Warmachines/Hordes, with their clear ruleset and customer interaction and communication was a breath of fresh air, where new editions don't come every 3 years and are an improvement over the previous. The ones who liked Imperial Guard and tanks ended up playing Flames of War which gives out replacement editions for free! One guy went of to ancient historicals, but we never heard from him again. So as you can see, just about every other gaming companies with inferior IP manage to be successful with other business models.
Reading some of the teaser rules and FAQ for 8th, it does seem like the new rules would be great and deals with the everlasting problem of vehicle and monstrous creatures balance, but for most of us in my gaming group the only thing bringing us back to 40k is the familiar albiet awesome universe and that we already have multiple ready painted armies that only need to be found and dusted off.
Yeah, of course there are dozens of companies that do cool things and who support the hobby somehow! I didn't mean to sound like I was dissing them all.
I'm just disagreeing with the idea that gaming companies make money from spawning new books and editions. Some have free rules, and some replace your old book with new editions for free. GW business model isn't the only model out there that's all.
They can make money out of books, they just don't choose to make money out of them because in this time accessibility is way more important to sell what you want to sell, miniature models, and free rules work as a open catalog which instantly work as a plug in and play. That business model has been obsolete for years already but only now GW is pivoting away from it.
You don't need to sell your customers XX book to keep up every time you want to release models because you can do it in various ways that do not require your player to own any product other than the models themselves, such as having unit profiles online for free like infinity does or using cards which come with your models like Xwing or Malifaux.
People don't collect codexes because they want to collect codexes. They collect codexes because they need to know all the rules.
Of course there are people who just wanna know the rules. But there are also completionists, who want shiny books on their shelves. They've bought every single set of printed rules GW ever released. That's why there are collector's editions, those guys want more than just rules. They love the lore, art prints and all the other goodies. I've met quite a few. (Some are pretty elitist know-it-alls, tbh) I'm not sayin they're the majority, but they do exist. It's almost like they've lost 1 sanity, for every single codex, they've ever bought.
edit: it's codices not codexes (guess I'm also a lil' know-it-all, who knew?!^^)
Full leaks for the new edition is out. A lot of game stores have demo copies of the new starter set, and copies of the core rules and Indexes for previewing.
Currently all armies have their rules and points in these Index books. Some armies are lacking some flavorful rules right now, but army codexes are forthcoming to fix that.
Most reaction of people playing so far is positive. Its definitely a lot simplier now with Scatter and templates gone, along with vehicle facing.
Some of the new ideas sound very good, some sound quite bad for a wargame, notably all the stuff that removes flanking/positioning, like vehicle facing or no templates, or manual wound allocation
It has less meaning now to carefully position your models because the enemy has a whirlwind/basilisk, nor does it have meaning to flank a slow tank with fast units like land speeders.
I would have much preffered that the vehicle facing determined the armour save, and that templates were kept (they werent the most complex rule at all)
On June 03 2017 21:33 Gorsameth wrote: The rules (8 pages) should be free but prob wont release until the edition actually comes out on the 17th. Donno if Indexes will be free.
Ìndexes are 20€ each one (already on preorder). The rules aren't only 8 pages to be honest, that's the sheet that comes in the starter box, the typical rules sheet.
Actually, the worst thing about WH and 40K was a steady increase of models required to play a game. This, along with heavy nerfing and buffing between editions made it so that not only you had to buy a ton of minis, but also made some of them go from OP to obsolete and back between editions. I couldn't really stand it so I left.
Also, introducing new people was hard as hell since you couldn't simply buy just one or a couple of cheap boxes and play a meaningful game. What they should do from the beginning was releasing some form of starter packs (where you would get an HQ and 2 troops, minimum required for a viable army) for each and every faction that would all have similar point values. This way you could simply buy a pack, your friend would grab one too and you could be playing right away. Before I quit you had to have a rulebook (through starter box or stand alone, which was quite pricy), then the codices where you had the point values and options for your faction. After figuring it all out on paper you would then have to finally buy some minis (at this point you've probably invested somewhere along $70-100 into it), which would include buying at least 2 boxes and a blister (which is another $75, not guaranteeing point equality with a friend who did the same).
They do offer some starter packs now, but it's too little too late in my opinion. Also, spending $85 to play some 200-300 point game is pretty crap since you don't get anything really interesting for that and it generally feels awkward.
On June 03 2017 21:33 Gorsameth wrote: The rules (8 pages) should be free but prob wont release until the edition actually comes out on the 17th. Donno if Indexes will be free.
Ìndexes are 20€ each one (already on preorder). The rules aren't only 8 pages to be honest, that's the sheet that comes in the starter box, the typical rules sheet.
The Core rules are 8 pages. The rulebook further contains ~6 pages to explain matched play and battleforged armies and the rest is missions and background.
Its all been leaked already.
8th is most likely cheaper to play then 7th was because most armies have gone up in points (basic troops remained the same while elites, which is the bulk of most armies, has gone up.
I saw the leak on youtube. Weirdly i thought there were more than 8 pages, my bad. But it's true that the main phases rules never really bloated the rulebook, it always was special rules and vehicles for the most part, and since those are on the datasheets or don't exist anymore, it is much shorter.
@Manitaou that's the problem for bigger than skirmish wargames. Malifaux or infinity aren't cheap, but since its starting point is about half of a regular match, and that you can get meaningful choices and rules interactions from the get go since there are no "units", a starter box suffice to get a good feeling of the game and have meaningful games.
They are meant to be played at certain point levels that are far away from a start budget range. I agree that it didn't help that they doubled the amount of models required to play from 2th to 3th edition and continued to do increase it afterwards, but it's kind of the problem of the genre, rather than GW's fault alone (well, they should do a budget model range imo with less quality but more quantity akin to mantic games). I remember when i started on 2th edition, i bought a box with 30 marines for what would be 30€ today. That, and a few blisters and i had something actually interesting to play with. Now ? Good luck with 40-50€ going into warhammer.
On June 03 2017 22:56 Godwrath wrote: I saw the leak on youtube. Weirdly i thought there were more than 8 pages, my bad. But it's true that the main phases rules never really bloated the rulebook, it always was special rules and vehicles for the most part, and since those are on the datasheets or don't exist anymore, it is much shorter.
@Manitaou that's the problem for bigger than skirmish wargames. Malifaux or infinity aren't cheap, but since its starting point is about half of a regular match, and that you can get meaningful choices and rules interactions from the get go since there are no "units", a starter box suffice to get a good feeling of the game and have meaningful games.
They are meant to be played at certain point levels that are far away from a start budget range. I agree that it didn't help that they doubled the amount of models required to play from 2th to 3th edition and continued to do increase it afterwards, but it's kind of the problem of the genre, rather than GW's fault alone (well, they should do a budget model range imo with less quality but more quantity akin to mantic games). I remember when i started on 2th edition, i bought a box with 30 marines for what would be 30€ today. That, and a few blisters and i had something actually interesting to play with. Now ? Good luck with 40-50€ going into warhammer.
I agree. The thing is however, they should not do full-blown war games in 28/32mm scale without having cheap enough miniatures. I know it might not be a valid point for someone who's been collecting for years and has plenty of stuff now, the problem it poses for new players is quite significant.
I would totally play WH/40K wargames with decent rules in 10/15mm range or smaller (think Warmaster and Epic).
Epic is coming back, but one of WH40k's appeals to me getting in WAS its size. If I want to play a skirmish game, I have Warmachine. If I want to see a bunch of infantry slug it out over a cityscape that actually uses terrain, I'll play 40k. Plus now days, the Start Collecting boxes are just fine for getting in, considering Shadow War Armageddon exists, and you literally just need 1 infantry squad to play that game.
On June 03 2017 20:56 Godwrath wrote: Well, GW releases the indexes not for free, neither the rules. So it's pretty much old GW business track.
The Core rules for actually playing the game, and basic missions are free. "Advanced" rules for Match Play and such are not, but w/e. Indexes are cheap, and GW never said they would be free, people just assumed so because Warscrolls are free in AoS.
Damn! The more I keep staring at this...the more I wanna buy it... But then I keep telling myself: "Nah, you're not that stupid...You'll be a dead man, once you know who... checks the bank account!"
On June 04 2017 03:36 Sentenal wrote: Epic is coming back, but one of WH40k's appeals to me getting in WAS its size. If I want to play a skirmish game, I have Warmachine. If I want to see a bunch of infantry slug it out over a cityscape that actually uses terrain, I'll play 40k. Plus now days, the Start Collecting boxes are just fine for getting in, considering Shadow War Armageddon exists, and you literally just need 1 infantry squad to play that game.
On June 03 2017 20:56 Godwrath wrote: Well, GW releases the indexes not for free, neither the rules. So it's pretty much old GW business track.
The Core rules for actually playing the game, and basic missions are free. "Advanced" rules for Match Play and such are not, but w/e. Indexes are cheap, and GW never said they would be free, people just assumed so because Warscrolls are free in AoS.
I do have to say that the pricing is significantly better than past editions, even if it isn't free.
EPT
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