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On October 06 2014 21:16 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 21:14 FFW_Rude wrote:
Something i didn't pay attention but.. When i play my mage, i saw that it was almost vanilla. Do they plan on bringing back real totems for shaman ? I really loved using them like in vanilla . It was hard but fun. There is a glyph i think that shows your totems again. You can do that on live too with the glyph. But other than that i don't think they will ever be like they were no, in terms of visual effects and a totem bar.
No i mean like... the old totem. The one you had to place and that stays more than 3seconds on the grounds.
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On October 06 2014 21:17 ViperPL wrote:
Are the trees phased for each player or will we see loads of people camping a sea of stumps? :D
they are shared so camping is possible but considering you can only use a max of 60 wood per day because of work orders I don't think its to big of a problem (that's ~12 small trees or ~6medium ones) considering they are fairly plentiful.
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On October 06 2014 21:20 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:43 Serejai wrote:
You have to remember that the item squish only took us back to the start of MoP, which means stats in WoD will mirror what we had this expansion. Not only do you have no evidence for this bare assertion, but it makes little logical sense. The stat squish affects future items as well, meaning new tiers will not scale as much as past tiers have. There's no way the end of this expansion is going to look the same way it is now, even if it brings us back to early MoP levels. Plus, the way PvP damage is calculated is changing (again), so it's still not going to be the same as current anyway.
But there's plenty of evidence. The value of stats has not changed; only the budget for them was reduced.
Currently a fresh level 100 has the same damage as the start of Cata and the same health as the start of MoP. Since item level isn't changing any, and they are adding a fourth raid tier... the inflation will be much faster than it originally was. So while damage may start out the same as in WoTLK, it will progress more than twice as fast since WoTLK only had two item level tiers.
Stamina is even worse; you start off at level 100 with about 250k as a tank and by the time you do heroic dungeons you're already at 500k.
So yes, the item squish does affect future items... in regards to their stat budget. It does NOT affect the value of each stat, though. Item level budgets were reduced by 96% for damage stats and 92% for Stamina, but the value of each stat wasn't touched.
I've spoken with Seriallos and Astrylian and they both mirror my thoughts on the matter.
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On October 06 2014 21:27 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:43 Serejai wrote:On October 06 2014 20:33 Teoita wrote:
Well it can't be worse than in mop, that's for sure That's what people said at the end of Wrath. Then they said it again at the end of Cata. ... and again at the end of Pandaland. You have to remember that the item squish only took us back to the start of MoP, which means stats in WoD will mirror what we had this expansion. That being said... Tanks are still OP. Melee is still OP. Druids are still OP. DKs are WoTLK-levels of OP. All casters are terrible. I haven't played myself but this is coming from a few friends I spoke to who are Gladiator every season, so I'm going to take their word for it. They said it doesn't feel as bad as MoP, but doesn't feel good, either. Also keep in mind that if melee are broken at the start of expansion they're only going to snowball to ridiculous levels later since they scale far better with gear than casters do. The skill cap for PvP was raised a fair amount so there's that. Well I don't know having arenad every expansion I think the improvements look good on paper concept wise. No comments on potential class balance for expansion. I also think MoP was vastly better throughout the first season than any time of cata. Personal opinion of course. Just want to point out though, that one of your points is complete and utterly wrong. In practice melee scale like ass with gear compared to casters in WoW pvp. There is a reason why in literally EVERY single expansion it gets more and more caster heavy in later seasons and by the end its always a wizard fest. However, the reason for this is not neccesarily individual scaling, because sure a higher iLvL weapon means more to a melee etc, the thing is that at least in every expansion to date gear scaling increases damage reduction and in particular healers ability to heal through steady damage to a great degree. This translate to teams that turtle and go for kills with extended cc chains being MUCH stronger. That is why melee cleave are rampant and strong early on in expansions and non-existent at the end. Current Blizzcon quals perfect example of this. There are not even any "balanced" (melee caster healer) teams to speak of. No comment on "bg" balance or scaling implied or intended here. Although my experience is that most high level rbgs are a fairly melee unfriendly environment all the time.
When I mentioned melee scaling I was referring to a season-to-season basis; not the expansion as a whole. Melee dominate the first week or two of any season because their damage is front loaded.
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Yes precisely. The fact that they are strongest until people start getting new season gear means exactly the opposite of "they scale better with gear". heh
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That's the exact definition of "scaling better with gear". Melee get a larger benefit from gear than casters do at the start of every season, thus they scale better from season to season. A melee going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS at the start of the season is better scaling than a caster going from 125 DPS to 150 DPS in the same time frame.
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What are your strategies to get ahead of the big leveling block? Even on beta the start of frostfire ridge is way to crowded to level properly
My strat was doing the garrison quests, then going to the northeast of frostfire ridge where you can do a bunch of quests and atleast 1 bonus objective (which gives like 5x XP of a simple quest) without doing the storyline in Wor'Gol / Bladefire Fortress. After that you can go to the far east and do another questline which gives about 20% from 91 to 92. The remaining XP from 91 to 92 can be done with random dungeon queue (got a 5 man group).
As soon as you hit 92 you are able to go into Gorgrond and should be ahead of most people
Does anyone have other ideas to handle the first 2 levels? 1 Random dungeon run gives about 10% of a lvl, maybe just running those is a good solution as well...
Edit: I have also found a small levelingspot in Frostfire Ridge which gives me 10% / 5 Minutes at 90 and 91, but I expect them to fix it..
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On October 06 2014 22:33 Serejai wrote:
That's the exact definition of "scaling better with gear". Melee get a larger benefit from gear than casters do at the start of every season, thus they scale better from season to season. A melee going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS at the start of the season is better scaling than a caster going from 125 DPS to 150 DPS in the same time frame.
Rofl. Just no. When casters get better relative to melee as the season progresses. (AS FAR AS RELATIVE ROLE STRENGTH IN ARENA GOES) That precisely exactly no ifs ands or butts about it means they scale better with gear. I dunno how you can even say this. haha
The beginning "first two weeks of season" is not when gear improves, that is exactly when you are using the old outdated gear.
Edit: While I said this before, I'll say it again. Gear improves melee "target dummy" dps better (arguably and fairly slight the way weapons work now they are just as big an increase for caster dps). However pvp gear scales survivability at a faster rate than damage output which because of the way the game works unquestionably favors casters.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On October 06 2014 23:42 Vallelol wrote:
What are your strategies to get ahead of the big leveling block? Even on beta the start of frostfire ridge is way to crowded to level properly
My strat was doing the garrison quests, then going to the northeast of frostfire ridge where you can do a bunch of quests and atleast 1 bonus objective (which gives like 5x XP of a simple quest) without doing the storyline in Wor'Gol / Bladefire Fortress. After that you can go to the far east and do another questline which gives about 20% from 91 to 92. The remaining XP from 91 to 92 can be done with random dungeon queue (got a 5 man group).
As soon as you hit 92 you are able to go into Gorgrond and should be ahead of most people
Does anyone have other ideas to handle the first 2 levels? 1 Random dungeon run gives about 10% of a lvl, maybe just running those is a good solution as well...
Edit: I have also found a small levelingspot in Frostfire Ridge which gives me 10% / 5 Minutes at 90 and 91, but I expect them to fix it..
Yeah this is always the most important thing. I normally just stick it out though and start with everyone else. Normally after 30-40minutes you are on your own.
I never battle for server 1st or whatever, so i might just go farm some mining nodes or herbs first for an hour or so then jump into the leveling.
Thanks for the tips on frostfire ridge though 
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By not taking the obvious next quest to do out of a selection you get with your garrison but instead beelining strait for the zone finale I'm probably already skipping most of the crowd aswell as ending up most of the way to 92. Add in some bonus objectives and should be 92 and on to the next zone where everyone gets split because of the lumber / arena choice and should be smooth sailing from there on out.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Here is what I remember about Arena seasons.
In BC PvE gear was so strong that Melee always scaled well into the later seasons, what was important at the start was that everyone wore PvE gear and didn't have proper Resillience or items, due to the way the stats worked in BC Paladins were strong early on(because Plate Armor provided a strong base amount of protection). As the seasons progressed and gear became better healers get more resillient as they get stronger items, this reduces the effect of straight up Melee damage from PvE(but yeah, people with 2250 weapons and 4/4 rogues/people with his ArP were still bullshit but so was the gearing system).
In WOTLK this continued to be the case for the first season/up to a certain degree the second season. Paladins are stronger at the early stages because of their plate armor, warriors are stronger(S5 they were meh but in s6 they got lolstorm), DK's are bullshit, Hunters have strong control, physical ranged damage and kiting tools(Holy Pala+X=win) and up to a certain degree burst rogues were good(if they get hit they are dead due to everyone having a Titansteel dstroyer/25man Naxx Weapon or w/e at the start of season 5). The seasons progressed, gear became better and cloth/Leather healers stepped in once again, priests, warlocks, mages, shamans all become stronger. The further we came, the more variety in comps came, TSG's, african turtle cleave, RLS etc. At the end of WOTLK the spellcleave variant became more popular, strong burst set up by strong CC(which melee lacks, if they have them its usually harder to do since they are well, melee and not ranged).
I quit around various pvp seasons so I don't know how much of this is still applicable(due to drastic itemization changes and class redesigns) but Spellcleaves or Wizardcleave or whatever the fuck they call it these days usually dominate the later stages or the endstages of each expansion due to gear scaling better for them. You have to remember that even though Melee DPS scales well, defensive stats do too. The nature of the classes made it so that the upfront tanky classes who wore plate or dealt heavy physical damage were stronger early but were outpaced and eventually outmatched by casters. Early season season 8 or whatever the last season of WOTLK was also dominated by spellcleaves from start to finish if I am not mistaken.
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Lalalaland34484 Posts
As a Priest who mainly played during S6 and S7 of WOTLK, fuck TSG and melee cleaves.
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On October 07 2014 00:06 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 22:33 Serejai wrote:
That's the exact definition of "scaling better with gear". Melee get a larger benefit from gear than casters do at the start of every season, thus they scale better from season to season. A melee going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS at the start of the season is better scaling than a caster going from 125 DPS to 150 DPS in the same time frame. Rofl. Just no. When casters get better relative to melee as the season progresses. (AS FAR AS RELATIVE ROLE STRENGTH IN ARENA GOES) That precisely exactly no ifs ands or butts about it means they scale better with gear. I dunno how you can even say this. haha The beginning "first two weeks of season" is not when gear improves, that is exactly when you are using the old outdated gear. Edit: While I said this before, I'll say it again. Gear improves melee "target dummy" dps better (arguably and fairly slight the way weapons work now they are just as big an increase for caster dps). However pvp gear scales survivability at a faster rate than damage output which because of the way the game works unquestionably favors casters.
The problem has been this expansion that casters are way more vulnerable to CC because they have less defensive capabilities and require cast times that can be interrupted. With a lot of CC getting removed, casters will start to be more favored again.
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Like seriously people should just spend 10 minutes looking at the rosters of the blizzcon teams right now. Let alone watching the actual games. Casters are IMMENSELY favored now and were at the end of both WotLK and CATA. BC did not fit this mold to be fair, but tbh arena was very class/composition limited back then.
Edit: In regards to above post... I don't know what to say. Casters have to cast far less than every before, their damage is actually comparable to melees in arena. (there are obvious reasons why this is not traditionally so). They ALL have instant unavoidable cc to set up their casted cc. And the nerf to dispel alone was a MASSIVE nerf to melee buff to casters for this expansion.
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On October 07 2014 00:51 Atreides wrote:
Like seriously people should just spend 10 minutes looking at the rosters of the blizzcon teams right now. Let alone watching the actual games. Casters are IMMENSELY favored now and were at the end of both WotLK and CATA. BC did not fit this mold to be fair, but tbh arena was very class/composition limited back then.
Edit: In regards to above post... I don't know what to say. Casters have to cast far less than every before, their damage is actually comparable to melees in arena. (there are obvious reasons why this is not traditionally so). They ALL have instant unavoidable cc to set up their casted cc. And the nerf to dispel alone was a MASSIVE nerf to melee buff to casters for this expansion.
TBH, I was talking more about Destruction Warlock, Ele Shaman, and non-Frost mages, the 2 most common casters (that you see in these arena teams) are Affliction Warlock and Frost Mage which have always been far and away the 2 best caster classes in arena due to their unique skillsets and instant damage. As someone who actually has played Affliction in MoP, I can attest to the fact that, while we have precisely 0 burst damage, we are good in outlast comps. Frost Mages are good in burst comps. The problem is that those 2 specs are the only ones useful in PvP right now, whereas Assassin and Sub rogues are both useful, Arms Warriors are useful, heal/dps monks are both useful, etc. There's just a lot more physical classes that are viable than casters, though I'm not going to say Frost and Affliction aren't very powerful.
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On October 07 2014 00:51 Atreides wrote:
Like seriously people should just spend 10 minutes looking at the rosters of the blizzcon teams right now. Let alone watching the actual games. Casters are IMMENSELY favored now and were at the end of both WotLK and CATA. BC did not fit this mold to be fair, but tbh arena was very class/composition limited back then.
Edit: In regards to above post... I don't know what to say. Casters have to cast far less than every before, their damage is actually comparable to melees in arena. (there are obvious reasons why this is not traditionally so). They ALL have instant unavoidable cc to set up their casted cc. And the nerf to dispel alone was a MASSIVE nerf to melee buff to casters for this expansion.
Maybe you should spend ten minutes being good at arenas instead of basing your "knowledge" on watching other people do it.
a) You can't say casters will be better at 100 and then cite level 90 arenas as your proof. It doesn't work that way.
b) Any half-decent player is essentially finished with arenas after a month - well before casters start to shine. You can point out how casters dominate arena seasons after they've been going on for 5-6 months but the problem with that logic is that anyone still running arenas at that point is either terrible, casual, or an alt. Gladiators only play for the first few weeks and then lock in their spot for the season. I've gotten Gladiator 7 times and I've never played past 4-5 weeks into a season, nor has anyone else I know unless it's on an alt.
So no, casters are not "IMMENSELY" favored. Your anecdotal evidence tells you this because casters are very slightly better than melee as a whole, and people at the Blizzcon tourney all have the same gear - thus eliminating the head start that melee get every season. Roughly the increases go as such:
Melee: 1 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8 > 9 > 10
Casters: 1 > 2 > 4 > 6 > 8 > 10 > 11
At first I was indifferent to your posts but now that you keep claiming to know how arenas work because you watch other people do it... not so much.
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Lalalaland34484 Posts
On October 07 2014 01:25 Serejai wrote:
Maybe you should spend ten minutes being good at arenas instead of basing your "knowledge" on watching other people do it.
On October 06 2014 20:43 Serejai wrote:
I haven't played myself but this is coming from a few friends I spoke to who are Gladiator every season, so I'm going to take their word for it.
Sorry couldn't resist.
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On October 07 2014 01:28 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:25 Serejai wrote:
Maybe you should spend ten minutes being good at arenas instead of basing your "knowledge" on watching other people do it. Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:43 Serejai wrote:
I haven't played myself but this is coming from a few friends I spoke to who are Gladiator every season, so I'm going to take their word for it. Sorry couldn't resist.
YOU KNOW THAT IS OUT OF CONTEXT YOU TOOL.
Brb, gonna dig through your post history and fabricate some entire short story and it's going to be related to porn somehow.
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Lalalaland34484 Posts
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On October 07 2014 01:31 Firebolt145 wrote:
I eagerly await this.
I'm going to start with this:
On February 02 2013 01:57 Serejai wrote:
I only wear a t-shirt if I'm forced to share a bed/room with another dude
it somehow makes it less gay
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EPT
